[3.x] Houserule Kludges

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:50 pm

So a while back I started work on a fantasy heartbreaker that I've generated a reasonable amount of content for but never finished (and have not, IMO, actually written enough content to run a real game, just some combat playtests). I don't think I'm going to finish it, maybe not ever. It's just too much work, and I don't have the spare time and energy I would need to create a final product that made me happy. I look to 3.5e and its abundance of readily-usable content (all those monster manuals come to mind!) and ask: How can I make this system do what I want better than it already does without having to rewrite huge chunks of it?

The heartbreaker I was working on incorporated some aspects of the TNE notion of CAN. I like CAN a lot.

Therefore I raise the question: What's the simplest kludge I can implement to get something more "CAN-like" in D&D 3.5 so that HP damage and conditions/save-or-die effects play together better?

Initial proposal:

1) Good saves use the good save progression. Bad saves use the same progression -2.
2) Spells, spell like abilities, and Su abilities always have a save DC of 10 + half user's level + ability score modifier.
2) Anyone below some threshold of their max HP (50%?) takes an -x penalty to all saving throws.

What unforeseen consequences on the game am I overlooking here?

Zaranthan · Post by **Zaranthan** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:37 am

At first glance, you haven't given fighters a way to finish off enemies. The wizard shoots fireballs at the demon until it's bloodied, then starts tossing save-or-dies until it flubs a save. The fighter bashes the demon in the face until it's bloodied, then... keeps bashing it in the face hoping it flubs a save against the wizard's spells.

Numerically, the difference between good saves and bad saves needs to be a lot more than 10% of the RNG for me to give a shit which saves I'm "weak" to. 4 is probably the smallest difference you'll notice in actual low level play, and by high levels it should be more like 8-12.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:55 am

When a target is bloodied(50%hp) they take maximized hit point damage.

A failed save can be passed by a non bloodied character by taking 1d4*their level in damage, so a full hit point fighter can usually take the damage to keep on truckin for another round instead of just dying from a SoD, but then he's closer to getting bloodied and dying from hp damage. (I'm going with this as a quick kludge that doesn't involve revamping how many spells work and interact with bloodied condition)

Anyone 4 levels beneath you counts as bloodied for the purpose of your attack effects.

So wih these kludges, sods can be resisted by taking damage until Bloodied, but being bloodied makes you more vulnerable to hit point damage, so wizards and warriors alike are interacting with each other's preferred conflict resolution methods.

Zaranthan · Post by **Zaranthan** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:48 pm

I like where you're going with this, but 23 damage isn't quite a death effect compared to 1d8+15. Maybe automatic critical hits? You can't just turn ordinary melee attacks into save-or-dies, either, because then housecats become balor-killers. The idea of "knock off half their hp to open them up to instant-kills" is fine, but just give the fighters an instant kill power.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:14 pm

Except SoD's still cost spell slots and buffing attacks is a lot easier than buffing spell DCs.

With Ogre's rules, casting a SoD will do shitty dmg compared to a shitty evocation spell when the target is not bloodied. And since evocation spells get maximized for free when the target is bloodied, the easier solution is just to tell your players not to cast SoD spells.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Fri May 01, 2015 1:49 pm

Never tried it ... but how about +10 to all saves, -10 when bloodied (ie. half hitpoints).

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Fri May 01, 2015 2:10 pm

Zaranthan wrote:I like where you're going with this, but 23 damage isn't quite a death effect compared to 1d8+15. Maybe automatic critical hits? You can't just turn ordinary melee attacks into save-or-dies, either, because then housecats become balor-killers. The idea of "knock off half their hp to open them up to instant-kills" is fine, but just give the fighters an instant kill power.

I've played with trading out stats to damage for bonus dice. So instead of 1d8+15 you might have 4d8+6. Combine that with max vs bloodied and you go from average 24 to average 38 much more noticeable. Probably still not enough compared to a sod but a step in the right direction.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Fri May 01, 2015 2:13 pm

Zaranthan wrote:The fighter bashes the demon in the face until it's bloodied, then... keeps bashing it in the face hoping it flubs a save against the wizard's spells.

Is this a problem? As long as the fighter has far superior single target damage than the wizard they both play their part this way.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Fri May 01, 2015 2:56 pm

The original post changes 3e by giving a penalty to saves when wounded, making the game easier for people flinging SoD's about and harder for people who take hits for a living...

Isn't that the opposite of solving the problems with 3e?

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Fri May 01, 2015 3:18 pm

OgreBattle wrote:When a target is bloodied(50%hp) they take maximized hit point damage.

Why not make it so that at bloodied you stop being able to soak SoDs period?

You could give martials some boosted damage at bloodied, but even a 3e core fighter could put almost anything away in 2 full attacks from half hitpoints to begin with so I don't think that is a good idea. Casters really shouldn't get boosted damage to DD spells because you indeed make taking SoDs entirely useless for prepared casters.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat May 02, 2015 5:23 am

Monte's (I think) idea for 5e was that spells all had their own current hit point limit.

So Charm Person could charm any person who had <20 hp, and Dominate Monster could get anything with <40 hp, and would auto-fail otherwise. So you open with Fireball and finish by Dominating a monster who needs healing, which dramatically weakens Wizards and SoD spells and encourages everyone to play together.

You can also limit the Fighter's boring-ass spam that way, so you can Disarm anything with <20 hp (like the town guard), and Sunder anyone with <10 (alternate finishing move for captures). Which also makes Fighters quickly immune to that shit too.

But 3e Fighters ultimately don't work (IMO, many disagree) because the monsters are better than them. Casters can still buff themselves or summon something or polymorph into stuff or dominate shit that makes grunts obsolete as grunts, even with target limits. PC grunts need much bigger numbers on their basic chassis to be a better meat shield than the monsters are. They also need everything a Monk can do for free, and some other spells, and casters who actually need help, and Pounce, but that's an aside.