Lo5R will be a LCG now

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:29 am

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/n ... ror-rises/

What are people's thoughts on this?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:51 am

On some level, it's like all the other games FFG has acquired and revamped, except that this one is caught just as it dies instead of being resuscitated after years of being defunct.

My first thought is that I'm interested to see how they support ~9 factions given their usual distribution methods for LCGs, which really don't seem to pack enough cards for such a thing.

Other than that, given that they plan to shake up the setting and also revamp the rules, it's not at all clear what they plan to keep. They seem to be banking that the fan base will follow the logo despite probably being told that all their previous cards are unusable now; sure, the CCG rotated blocks in and out of legality, but that was piecemeal. If they weren't courting the current players, they could have released their own game and not paid for the IP. We've discussed on this board how you could do a better setting from the high concept, and on some level the excessively long and arcane narrative L5R has accumulated is a barrier for new players. I don't think it's a good bet.

If they got all the existing L5R art assets as part of the deal, that could be pretty sweet. There's a lot of beautiful art and reprinting it could save them a big chunk of change.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:38 am

L5R is, generously, the most notorious clusterfuck in the history of CCGs, both in terms of rules and storyline. On the former, I don't see how they can do anything except burn it down and start over. On the latter, I imagine they'll keep a lot of the same writers and just start a new chapter, like every other time L5R has written themselves into a corner/done something really stupid.

As far as LCG and 9 factions goes, I'd be willing to bet that the sets cover 2-3 factions at a time, rotating, with 3 sets forming a complete thematic "block."

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:37 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:If they got all the existing L5R art assets as part of the deal, that could be pretty sweet. There's a lot of beautiful art and reprinting it could save them a big chunk of change.

Basically this. FFG hasn't shown any real inclination to make storylines or usable game mechanics with any of their properties. But they have reused art properties. There are art pieces that have appeared in Arkham Horror, the Cthulhu CCG, Elder Sign, and the Call of Cthulhu LCG. And some have appeared in the title more than once. Fantasy Flight is great at milking visual IP for all it's fucking worth. It looks from the announcement that they've gotten the use of at least many of L5R's huge stable of art pieces. And that means that FFG probably got a great deal.

Now the L5R storyline needs to be killed with fire. It jumped the shark when Clinton was president and descended into self parody so long ago that the fact that L5R's storyline has gotten stupid is itself old enough to vote. This is one place where giving the thing to some disinterested hack writers who don't actually know anything about the long standing canon of the setting and just start over could be a good thing.

-Username17

K · Post by K » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:20 pm

The bones of the IP are solid even if the latter half is pure nonsense bullshit nonsense.

On that note, Shadowlands forever.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:02 am

Putting the brand under new management is of course the only way to move forward. Alderac has fucked the chicken too many times. They came out with a fourth edition of the L5R RPG five years ago and I haven't even read it. There is no product or plot announcement that AEG could put out that would entice me to buy a card or a book.

But of course, the concept has legs. There is beautiful art and a number of hooks that draw me in. A reboot by other people certain gets my attention. FFG hasn't really shown that they know what to do with an RPG property, but I'm interested. In a way that I bluntly would not be were this to be more flailing by AEG.

So I'm pessimistic, but I'll probably look at it. Mission accomplished, I suppose.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:53 am

What does L5R do well that makes it stand out from other oriental fantasy settings?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:48 am

OgreBattle wrote:What does L5R do well that makes it stand out from other oriental fantasy settings?

First of all, unlike Usagi Yojimbo or Jade Claw, you don't have to be a furry. However, it still gives space for horse girls and furries in the form of the Unicorn Clan, the Nezumi, and the Naga. So if your group has one or two furries in it, you can play Rokugan straight without anyone getting pissed off. That's a big thing in some groups.

But more generally, L5R presents clan and class as things that are both in-world and things you care about. The clans and classes have both look and feel. People can point to a piece of art and say "I want to play that!" and you can tell them exactly what it is.

To put this in solid terms, imagine that someone said that they were playing a Lion Clan Samurai or a Crane Clan Shugenja, you imagine something looking like this:

And the thing is that people can describe their character in-character or out-of-character in similar terms and promote similar connotations for the other players and the other characters. Rokugan stereotypes and costume branding is fucking useful. It's like all the advantages of telling the other players you are a Hobgoblin Ranger without any of the stupid discussion about whether "Ranger" is an in-character term or not.

On the other hand, if someone tells you what their type and state are in Qin: Warring States what image does that conjure up? Basically nothing. You have to get into the nitty gritty details of it all to go anywhere with that shit. If someone tells you their character concept in GURPS: Fantasy Asparagus China, that tells you basically nothing. Probably they are sooner or later going to break down and make an allusion to LR5 character types while trying to explain their fucking character.

Basically, most fantasy oriental settings can end up with parties that look like the cast of Seven Samurai: a group of Asian dudes wearing frankly similar outfits carrying swords. That can work in a visual medium (contrary to the popular joke, Asian men do not all look the same), but in a table top game you're imagining all the characters and you need something more to work with than "Asian guy in robes with a sword #3."

-Username17

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:15 pm

Most people have a very vague idea of Asian history anyway, so the eclectic mix of Japanese and Chinese history and principles in L5R gives it a sort of broad appeal as an Oriental fantasy setting. L5R's cosmology is sufficiently rich that you can fit in basically any Asian fantasy critter, up to and including some from your latest Korean horror movie.

I think the closest thing to an interesting story-thing Alderac has done in recent memory is reorganizing the Shadowlands - which, let us be frank, have been batshit insane clownshoes since practically the first incarnation of the game - as the Spider Clan, giving them a place among the other clans of Rokugan. Because for a long time "opposition to the Shadowlands" was the only unifying factor in Rokugan.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:07 pm

Also, it cannot be overstressed how much gorgeous art the CCG has. If you'd like some asian-themed fantasy but are allergic to weaboo, this will scratch your itch.

souran · Post by **souran** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:57 pm

Frank discussed how the setting makes it easy to describe what you are and has enough concepts for a typical group to play several different parties.

I think that this is actually a little broader. Rokugan sits in the setting sweetspot for both casual and devoted players.

You can describe the basics of rokugani history in 10 minutes, and people who are not particularly attached to the setting can get an idea of whats going to be going on and what they might be doing in the game.

It also manages to really exude a particular feeling of the setting without requiring lots of exposure to eastern cultures while at the same time not be to disgustingly racist (thats not to say that its not got racist elements).

The closest thing I can think to compare it to is the forgotten realms. FR is not a great setting, but it hits all the right notes for a stock fantasy setting. Quite Frankly, FR is a better default setting for D&D than any of their other settings including Greyhawk.

Rokugan works for people who are really into Asian history and culture and for people who know shit about it alike.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:39 pm

We should probably also talk about the reasons that we're all fairly pessimistic about this project even though we want it to be good.

The biggest bit is that FFG hasn't yet released an RPG that is fully functional and seems disinterested in even trying. We could make jokes about how if FFG made an L5R RPG that they'd release the rules for playing a samurai and the rules for playing a shugenja in two different fifty dollar books that were each 80% copypasta of each other without even fixing typos from one to the other. But those jokes wouldn't be funny, because that is literally how they handled both Dark Heresy and Edge of the Empire.

Beyond questions of competence surrounding the company that has the rights to move forward on this project, the setting can very easily be presented in a manner where it's difficult to imagine how the players can be a party of adventurers. If the "clan loyalty" is played up too much, none of the characters will have any reason to work together.

These are both characters players will want to play, but if "the Phoenix" and "the Mantis" are literally at war with each other at the moment, that is not going to work.

The next issue is mission design. A lot of major personalities in L5R don't actually ever meet each other. Which for a card game about daimyos in conflict is actually totally fine. You have a war leader marching dudes around on the field of battle and you have a propagandist writing poems in support of your land redistricting suggestions in the imperial court. Both help the war effort, and it's clear why they are both getting screen time. But in an RPG the focus is on the group.

These two ladies are both in the same clan, but one is a courtier and the other is a warrior and they are physically several hundred miles apart for most of their expected adventures.

Clearly you could set things up so that the expectation was that you did Mission Impossible shit with teams of shadowrunners with diverse talents drawn from different clans. But I am not holding my breath for FFG to figure out that's what they need to do. I'm rather expecting that we're looking at a game where three players will bring their characters to the table and two of them will be expected to fight to the death and the third one will be on the other side of the continent arguing agricultural tax policy.

-Username17

GnomeWorks · Post by **GnomeWorks** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:42 am

FrankTrollman wrote:I'm rather expecting that we're looking at a game where three players will bring their characters to the table and two of them will be expected to fight to the death and the third one will be on the other side of the continent arguing agricultural tax policy.

Hmm.

Splitting up a group has always been a headache in RPGs; I don't know of a single group that doesn't try to avoid it like the plague.

Is there a way to support that, though? Like... when the face is doing his thing, most of the other players are sitting there with little to add to the discussion anyway. Would it be possible to make the mechanics of a game in such a way that eases these situations? I'm honestly not even sure what that would look like, and wouldn't be surprised if the answer is a resounding "no, mechanics can't make this easier," but I'm curious.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:49 am

How out of curiosity, how do the L5R previous RPGs handle the differences between casters and noncasters? What utility does a samurai brings in comparison with the shujenga (which I assume to be the magic dudes)? How powerful does magic gets combat-wise?

ghost whistler · Post by **ghost whistler** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:41 am

Ancient History wrote:L5R is, generously, the most notorious clusterfuck in the history of CCGs, both in terms of rules and storyline. On the former, I don't see how they can do anything except burn it down and start over. On the latter, I imagine they'll keep a lot of the same writers and just start a new chapter, like every other time L5R has written themselves into a corner/done something really stupid.

As far as LCG and 9 factions goes, I'd be willing to bet that the sets cover 2-3 factions at a time, rotating, with 3 sets forming a complete thematic "block."

You'd be wrong then.

And I'm going to want to see evidence of this so called clusterfuck

ghost whistler · Post by **ghost whistler** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:55 am

FFG is simply turning into a ravenous storm consuming all it can. Less and less do I believe they are interested in creating something worthwhile rather than just pumping out product on some mass assembly line. I wish they would stop and learn to write well and take a consumer friendly approach to their games which otherwise look spectacular.

Unfortunately that won't happen because their fans are both legion and fanatical.

I've just grown tired of them. I used to be a big fan of their 'brand' bu they are now the new Games Workshop.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:23 pm

ghost whistler wrote:
Ancient History wrote:L5R is, generously, the most notorious clusterfuck in the history of CCGs, both in terms of rules and storyline. On the former, I don't see how they can do anything except burn it down and start over. On the latter, I imagine they'll keep a lot of the same writers and just start a new chapter, like every other time L5R has written themselves into a corner/done something really stupid.

As far as LCG and 9 factions goes, I'd be willing to bet that the sets cover 2-3 factions at a time, rotating, with 3 sets forming a complete thematic "block."
You'd be wrong then.

And I'm going to want to see evidence of this so called clusterfuck

I'd start by pointing you to Frank's OSSR of L5R RPG 3rd for the fluff, and the Creatures of Rokugan OSSR for some of the Shadowlands shenanigans, and maybe my own Hare Clan affinities. But long story short:

Fluff wise, L5R has been ridiculous for a long time - the basic idea that tournaments actually decide the course of the ongoing storyline is an attractive one, but from basically the fucking beginning you've the assholes in charge fuck around with the results to have things go the way they wanted, which resulted in a lot of frankly bizarre and terrible storylines (like the Nothing, and Shiva waking up, and frankly all of that Toturi's Army nonsense).

Mechanically, L5R is so regressive it's insane. It's not just that the game is badly in need of a fresh start, game balance still is not and never has been a major consideration, and there's never been any real concerted effort to even get the fucking keyword mechanics to not be ass. L5R is a longrunner, it's true, but we're not talking about a couple dinosaurs from the earliest editions - even Magic got rid of Banding and mana burn eventually - the game as a whole just tends to put out broken cards set after set.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:10 pm

maglag wrote:How out of curiosity, how do the L5R previous RPGs handle the differences between casters and noncasters? What utility does a samurai brings in comparison with the shujenga (which I assume to be the magic dudes)? How powerful does magic gets combat-wise?

Primarily, action advantage. Bushi characters (everyone in the L5R RPG is a "samurai", even shujenga. Bushi is the term for a samurai who is trained in killing people with a katana rather than in casting spells or being sociable) get to attack twice a round, while a spell takes a number of rounds equal to its spell level to cast. And as a matter of law in rokugen, you can be proven innocent of a crime by winning a duel to defend your honor (or having your Bushi friend win it for you as your champion). Having the Bushi be the party's yojimbo (person who fights your duels for you) so that everyone else in the party can do dubiously legal things and not get in trouble for them is a solid contribution.

ghost whistler · Post by **ghost whistler** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:26 pm

Ancient History wrote: Mechanically, L5R is so regressive it's insane. It's not just that the game is badly in need of a fresh start, game balance still is not and never has been a major consideration, and there's never been any real concerted effort to even get the fucking keyword mechanics to not be ass. L5R is a longrunner, it's true, but we're not talking about a couple dinosaurs from the earliest editions - even Magic got rid of Banding and mana burn eventually - the game as a whole just tends to put out broken cards set after set.

This may or may not be true,but I don't think I want FFG putting out another £30 starter set that actually isn't complete and requires 3 copies to get anywhere near a decent playset, plus the monthly subscription to keep up with the game. I can't keep up with this anymore.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:57 pm

maglag wrote:How out of curiosity, how do the L5R previous RPGs handle the differences between casters and noncasters? What utility does a samurai brings in comparison with the shujenga (which I assume to be the magic dudes)? How powerful does magic gets combat-wise?

To a first approximation, they don't. High end Shugenja can summon elemental spirits that are better than any Bushi will ever be. Shugenja learn new spells faster than Bushi learn new combat techniques, have more abilities to choose from, and get to add their level bonuses to more things.

But it also doesn't really matter. Going up in levels in L5R is really fucking slow and character power levels have very little relation to character level. You have incredibly min/maxable stat and skill values and these are far more important than how high in level you are. As a starting character who is not min/maxed, you might roll 3 dice and keep 2 - meaning that your average result is 15.3 but if you min/max properly you can be a starting character rolling 7 dice and keeping 5 on tasks of your choice, which gives you an average result of thirty fucking eight.

So making the right or wrong choices in chargen with regards to the allocation of numbers is so fucking important that people don't really even notice the power level differences between different classes. The game lacks a real set of Target Numbers (hilariously, the third edition section literally ends a section with the sentence "As a general guideline, difficulties are as follows:" with no chart or further clarification), but a hard task of TN 25 would be succeeded on just 10% of the time by 3k2 schmoe, but 93% of the time by 7k5 min/maxer. Coming right out of the gate at first level, tasks that are overwhelmingly challenging for one character will be trivial child's play for another.

The higher end characters are better than you will ever be. I mean, it's like whoa. Even as a min/maxed crazy honey badger of a character who invests all of the XPs they ever get into badassery, a high end named character will basically curb stomp you. The setting has got DMPenisNPCitis. And it's got it bad. Like, super bad. So no matter whether you cast spells or swing a katana, nothing you do is ever going to matter in the big largeness of it all. All that matters is how you perform against the low level challenges that won't turn you into a bug splat on a windshield, and you can pretty much do that with correct stat placement no matter what class you are in.

The big losers are Courtiers. Most Courtier abilities don't actually do anything, which means that they are mostly falling back on making stat+skill rolls and hoping that the MC decides that they accomplish their task of choice when they inevitably roll a 30+ on an Etiquette check. But since Shugenja specialize their stats based on their chosen element, you could jolly well just choose to be a social monster and also cast spells.

-Username17

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:04 am

So basically courtiers win big when the GM cheats in their favor and makes everyone else useless?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:49 am

Silent Wayfarer wrote:So basically courtiers win big when the GM cheats in their favor and makes everyone else useless?

Sorta. The social rules don't exist in any solid way, so if a big etiquette check does or does not have a major effecton the game, it isn't exactly cheating either way. Even the die rolling procedure is pretty up in the air - which is why Courtier abilities are so suspect. They give bonuses that are not only situational in the story, but only apply during certain die rolling procedures that are themselves optional. That sounds like a joke but it is not.

Let's say you want to convince someone to do something. I'll skip the questions of whether you are using the courtier skill or the etiquette skill or what emphasis is helpful and all the other ways you can spend real points on values the MC never checks. We'll assume whatever modifiers to your Awareness stat are called for that you have them. Is this a roll against a fixed TN or an opposed roll? Could go either way, but as a Bayushi Courtier your school abilities (the things you got instead of magic fucking powers) only affect opposed rolls.

But it's worse than that. If it is an opposed roll, is it handled by high roll wins? Does one character's roll set the other character's TN? Do both players have a TN and elect to take raises on that TN with victory going to whoever had the most raises and still passed their new TN? Because as a Bayushi, your school ability only affects opposed tests that are handled in that third way.

-Username17

ghost whistler · Post by **ghost whistler** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:32 pm

Seems to me you people manage to find something to break/is broken in every game. :/

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:19 pm

ghost whistler wrote:Seems to me you people manage to find something to break/is broken in every game. :/

Welcome to the Den.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:31 pm

Seems to me you people manage to find something to break/is broken in every game. :/

You might say that there's a lot of negativity on the Den -even though I think you'll find that people play and enjoy many of the games they criticize, and just don't tend to write about it- but if you do, this isn't the thread to do it in. The L5R RPG was shit from top to bottom: unbalanced, poorly suited to serialised group play, full of massively stupid setting bits and the core mechanic is both utterly inscrutable and incredibly clunky. It's telling that John Wick jumped ship to make Seventh Sea of all things. To hear him tell it he made improvements all around, but Seventh Sea itself still has such enormous problems in all the same areas that I don't consider it playable.