AS: Pain Drops... too good? Or just fine?

[Judging__Eagle]

After my second session playing with a Dryad; I've come to the conclusion that while Telekinesis and Grass Rope are good; they're possible to be overcome. While also potentially killing the target of their effects.

Pain Drops on the other hand, is no such thing. Almost impossible for a "tank" to resist; and capable of dealing incredible amounts of damage; while capstoned with the fact that you won't actually have to worry about the target dying from the effect.

In the AS session I had on sunday, my Caerfydinn (Merdinn/Merlin) PC in an Arthurian AS mini-campaign used it in the combat encounters it was in; and who they targeted seemed to have little chance against it. Soaking 3-7 wounds on Willpower is really hard; and I'm not sure which In Media Res characters could even stand up to a Pain Drop specialized character. Very likely, Pain Drops could drop (but not actually kill) a Kaiju in one shot.

In any case; the whole "not actually killing the target" aspect synergized really well with the Dream Vision and Telepathy powers my Dryad had; and they were able to achieve Arguments that converted rather powerful enemies into allies (one was a mini-boss (i.e. Hrethel, godfather of Beowulf); I guess; the other was the sessions main boss (i.e. mind-washed/duped Lancelot)).

Apparently writing down Assest 2 (Hrethel, King of the Geats) and Assets 4 (Lancelot, Knight of King Arthur's Table) was something the other players didn't think about; so now I've got more in game minions for Caerfyrdinn's driving passion (i.e. "Find Arthur, King of the Britons; and Restore them to their Throne in Camelot"; Dryads are Aimless, so driving passions should be "Do Whatever" or "Something too big to finish/progress faster than sessions happen", since you don't refresh Edge for furthering your driving passions).

I'm going to assume there are larger things I'm not considering with regards to Pain Drops seeming so powerful, but I can see Pain Drops being my characters go-to Sorcery for dropping enemies; and being totally useless when it comes to breaking down a wall.

[Mord]

Clearly your MC needs to throw more walls that need breaking down at you.

For reference:

Pain Drops: Tiny drops fall at the target, dampening not their skin but their pride. The character spends a Simple Action to direct Tears of Maya to fall at a target, and makes an Agility + Combat or Willpower + Rigging test to make a standard ranged attack. Pain Drops have a damage rating equal to the character’s Willpower, and are soaked with Willpower rather than Strength. Pain Drops cause only illusory damage, and while they cause wound penalties and even incapacitation, they do not actually kill or wrap around into lethal damage. Virtual damage from Pain Drops fades in an hour.

I can see why a traditional physical threat wouldn't fare too well against Pain Drops, but there are a number of ways to build an antagonist against this possiblity:
1) MC gives your foe good Willpower on top of physical stats
2) Give the foe good Edge, which adds to their resistance test pool at 1:1
3) Give the foe enough Power Points to burn to spend some on resists at 1:2
4) Give the foe an Astral power source, which gives +3 on their resistance tests against Astral sorcery
5) Give the foe Indomitability, which lets them ignore wound penalties
6) Give the foe Revive the Flesh and enough PP to use it
7) Adaptive Resilience, for that extra dash of "screw you"

Sounds to me like your MC may not be using all the tricks at their disposal to come up with enemies that tell your Pain Drops to GTFO. A Golem might make for a suitable antagonist.

[erik]

Sorcery can be counter-spelled too. A handful of bastards with salt-shakers can put a crimp in your plans.

[Judging__Eagle]

Those are really good points Mord; I actually forgot about using PP in order to increase resistance pools.

The MC has been fine with combats being short, and non-violent resolution to conflicts is something they're fine with (converting ancient Arthurian knights to my PCs cause is less unbalancing to the game than Titanizing them for Potency growth to our party imho). Of course, it's not like the targets we were fighting were supposed to stop our party in its tracks, and there's still the big campaign boss we're gearing up for (Queen Mab; or w/e).

The group has been "Team Witch!"; and as such has a pretty wide spread of sorceries. With a Khaibit (Empty Body + Song of Silence = downed/dead anything, from Merlin to Kaiju) and Baali (Protean powers + Feeding schedule = emptying PP pool every combat, and regaining the spent PP by "feeding" on the damage; can tank a basic Kaiju; even if his "tattoo magic" sword can't hurt it).

You're right Erik, dispelling magic will crimp its effect, but it might seem like a reach if there are lots of minions in every battle with salt shakers. I'm also just not sure if dispelling is that practical in this case, however. Our group has been talking at length about how dispelling is both "really powerful", but also "really limited" when looking at how Dispelling of a Force Field could happen (the WCL decided to super-secretly allow us to get an Elder power; for giving them a campaign item that puts them on par with the other three syndicates; the "Dragon" (i.e. the Baali) wants more "tougher" powers). While it's a potent hazard for supernatural creatures, it's not like dispelling will reasonably happen with high frequency (monster hunters, being an exception), and certainly not for NPCs who have only 1 or no followers (both times I used it, the targets were mostly alone; and the whole Coterie was there to take them on). With a Sorcery like Pain Drops; dispelling could be even harder, since the Dispellers would need to be giving up their actions in order to reactively dispell the Pain Drops as its being cast. As it's an simple action, it's not something people can walk up to and dispell after its taken effect, or premptively dispell before it affects them.

[Lokathor]

Those are really good points Mord; I actually forgot about using PP in order to increase resistance pools.

Probably because it's an optional rule I invented that wasn't in the base game :3

[erik]

I thought it was something that could be dispelled after taking effect. Hrm

[Archmage]

It probably can be. However, it's not entirely clear how dispelling works. As written it's supposed to cancel out the effect of a sorcery that's in place, not counterspell sorcery as someone's casting it. I assume the intent is that you can't, say, dispel the damage boxes done by a Hand of Flame attack, but you're probably supposed to be able to dispel the spooky fog created by Rising Mist by tossing handfuls of salt into the air.

I think it make more sense to treat phantom pain boxes caused by Pain Drops as a persisting spell effect that can be dispelled to heal the victim (after all, said boxes "fade in an hour") as opposed to an instant effect. I assume you can't take the sawdust left behind after someone with Aura of Decay has been nearby a wooden chair for too long and "dispel" it to get the chair back.

However, I don't see any distinction between these types of effects in the rules, and specific powers don't have some kind of [Dispellable] tag.

I could also be completely wrong, I think the whole section on dispelling is written in kind of a vague way.

[Mord]

Those are really good points Mord; I actually forgot about using PP in order to increase resistance pools.

Probably because it's an optional rule I invented that wasn't in the base game :3

You monster!

It probably can be. However, it's not entirely clear how dispelling works. As written it's supposed to cancel out the effect of a sorcery that's in place, not counterspell sorcery as someone's casting it. I assume the intent is that you can't, say, dispel the damage boxes done by a Hand of Flame attack, but you're probably supposed to be able to dispel the spooky fog created by Rising Mist by tossing handfuls of salt into the air.

I think it make more sense to treat phantom pain boxes caused by Pain Drops as a persisting spell effect that can be dispelled to heal the victim (after all, said boxes "fade in an hour") as opposed to an instant effect. I assume you can't take the sawdust left behind after someone with Aura of Decay has been nearby a wooden chair for too long and "dispel" it to get the chair back.

However, I don't see any distinction between these types of effects in the rules, and specific powers don't have some kind of [Dispellable] tag.

I could also be completely wrong, I think the whole section on dispelling is written in kind of a vague way.

It seems that the default assumption is that any given power is dispellable, since "this power is not dispellable" is called out as a special property rather than the other way around.

The dispelling techniques seem to be intended for use as counterspells, not just for use against enchantments/persistent effects, but that's an inference based on context rather than chapter and verse.

That said, since you're supposed to throw the salt at "the source of the magic," I'm not sure what the target would be for dispelling Pain Drops - the caster, or the victim on whom the mystic rain is falling?

I like the idea of being able to counterspell something like Hand of Flame or Pain Drops as it is cast if you have a readied action and handful of antimagic, but also that damage from Hand of Flame cannot be dispelled. I'm on the fence as to whether I think Pain Drops' phantom damage should be dispellable - if you have Indomitability, it's a little weird that you're subject to the power at all, since its whole schtick seems to be the ability to temporarily inflict wound penalties rather than wounds themselves.

[Judging__Eagle]

Those are really good points Mord; I actually forgot about using PP in order to increase resistance pools.

Probably because it's an optional rule I invented that wasn't in the base game :3

Still a great rule. I still remember reading it and thinking it was pretty good.

[edit]

I'd also assume that Pain Drops' effects are dispellable; probably by salting the target.