Fixing Call of Cthulhu

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Mord
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Fixing Call of Cthulhu

Post by Mord »

What's wrong with Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu don't begin or end with BRP; the entire game may be unworkable from a genre emulation standpoint before ink meets paper.

Cosmic horror dwells in the unknown, unknowable, unexplained, and inexplicable. It is a profound meditation on the meaninglessness of human existence and endeavor. You must set aside the notions of a Captain Kirk, going boldly where no man has gone before. Instead, you are presented with an invitation to gaze into the abyss, the acceptance of which constitutes a sick obsession and your likely demise. Mystery RP stories in the general case already suffer from difficulties with collaborative storytelling, and this problem is only exacerbated by the inclusion of cosmic horror as a theme.

In a mundane mystery, before the session even begins the truth is to some extent set in stone and the MC is by definition the only one who knows the whole story. At least PC investigators of a mundane mystery can solve a case, both because the truth behind a mundane mystery can be realized through the application of human reasoning and efforts, and because a mundane mystery has an underlying truth comprehensible to human minds. PC investigators of a cosmic mystery can take initiative, hunt for clues, apply reason, and come up with no answers at all save for having their brains turned inside-out by an errant Colour Out Of Space.

Player disempowerment is practically required if we are meant to meaningfully engage with the theme "we are specks of dust on the face of an incomprehensible being for whom the name 'God' lacks any meaning." This world, in which curiosity always kills the cat, is patently unsuitable for collaborative storytelling in the manner of a party of PCs riffing with their MC. How can one engage with the proposition that a group of players can share narrative control in a story where there is no meaningful truth to uncover, where the truth would be incomprehensible to the protagonists if it existed, and the protagonists' efforts must necessarily have no lasting consequences? It's a non-starter and you will reach one of several failure modes: you end up on the worst kind of MC railroad, in which players feel the victimization and disillusionment of playing in a mad, hostile universe and promptly quit because that's no fucking fun at all, you end up with farcical shit on the level of Old Man Henderson, or you tell a story with Mythos trappings but none of the substance because you've forced the Mythos into a D&D-shaped box. "You enter the sorcerer's lair and he sics four cultists and a Byakhee on you. Roll initiative."

The idea that you could expect a sorcerer to even have a Byakhee is another glaring problem with gamifying the Mythos. If you the player can bring any kind of expectations regarding the species of extradimensional beasties a mad sorcerer might have in his arsenal to the table, you have already lost. Lovecraft did not re-use many of his monsters or even bother to name them exactly because their purpose is to represent the unrecognizable and unknown. They are not scary creatures in the manner of The Wolfman or The Creature From The Black Lagoon in that they are funny-looking and present a physical threat, rather they are objects of fear because they suggest that there are countless other, equally mind-twisting blasphemies or worse teeming in the Outer Night that could drop in at any time on an inscrutable whim. Now we play Arkham Horror and pull a Formless Spawn from the monster cup and say, "oh yes, the Formless Spawn, two Toughness and Physical Immunity; I'd best use the enchanted knife." BZZZT. YOU LOSE.

And yet, you must have the bestiary. You must, if you are to play a game of dice and statistics, have target numbers and modifiers. You must know that a Byakhee is half the strength of the Star Spawn, but a quarter that of a Haunter of the Dark, or how could you roll for damage? So not only is cosmic horror as subject matter unsuitable for collaborative storytelling, but it is unsuitable to be represented categorically in the way it must be if we are to have a game at all. And if there's no collaboration in the story, and not even the formality of having some dice to roll to pretend to have agency, well... just read the MC's short story, then?

The unavoidable necessity of the bestiary leads in to a general cargo cultism of Lovecraftian places, monsters, deities, and planes. There is only so much weird shit that can happen in Arkham, Massachusetts before one would begin to suspect that it is somehow special, which is total anathema to the whole cosmic horror thing again. If Earth is nothing special, and it must not be, why is it that dozens of Outer Gods, Elder Gods, Great Old Ones (oh shit there's that bestiary categorization at work again) and others hang out on Earth and fuck around with its residents with such frequency?

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Oh, right, because Yasaka's first time has been promised to them. I guess that works.

And why specifically do they cluster around New England? Lovecraft himself fell victim to this to a certain extent, but I will give him a free pass because the dude was writing what he knew and also did not foresee the existence of people who would try to use his oeuvre as a campaign setting for an RPG. It's one thing to lace your stories with references to others, which is very cool and quite necessary when you are making the world's first collaborative fiction shared universe, but it doesn't in any way require you to sit down with a map and a ruler charting out whether the flight path of the Haunter of the Dark on its way to eat Robert Blake would have crossed the Whateley farm. However, if you are trying to build a campaign setting, you do have to engage with the question "why does all this weird stuff happen in such a small area?" Either everywhere on Earth is exactly this weird, in which case human civilization could not exist, or else Lovecraft County is in some way especially attractive to the Mythos, in which case you have lost the thread.

So, you can still have a roleplaying session in a context in which the rules are made up, the points don't matter, and Cthulhu rises or not based on the arbitrary rightness of the stars. It becomes a character-driven exercise in which the players emote at each other about the horrible things to which the MC exposes their characters until everyone breaks for pizza or goes home. Even then, you're still committing a sin against genre emulation, because for the most part cosmic horror stories are about lone weirdos whose strange passions lead them to social isolation and a bad end. The idea of a band of friends or colleagues trooping off together in search of the unknown is more Captain Kirk than Creepy Howie. The social isolation of the protagonist is vital; the crushing despair brought on by exposure to that which lurks beyond the walls cannot and must not be understood by those who have not experienced it for themselves. The soap-bubble everyday world must shun the one who has become aware as one who no longer fits in, as must the one who has become aware shun the world because they now understand its triviality.

Some Lovecraft stories do feature groups of investigators, but usually this is so that they can be picked off one by one and leave one last madman survivor to pass on the tale (cf. The Call of Cthulhu, At the Mountains of Madness). The Dunwich Horror is a notable exception, since you do have three professors getting together to not only oppose a critter of the Mythos but hex it to death and make it out pretty much unscathed. However, despite its popularity, this is also pretty much the least cosmically horrific that the Mythos can get. It typifies the kind of story you can actually tell in a standard RPG context with the Mythos backdrop, namely: a bunch of people get together, assemble clues, and fight a monster. Yog-Sothoth communicates with humans, makes deals with them, has identifiable wants, and is ultimately thwarted.

The sort of fiction modeled on Dunwich just does not interest me enough to make or remake an entire RPG for the purpose of facilitating more of it. I'm utterly nonplussed by the idea that anyone should want intentionally to assemble a cargo cult of Lovecraft's places, monsters, and deities and leave the actual thematic content at the door. The point of this rant, and what I'm asking, is where is my blindness? I feel I must be overlooking something. I'd dearly like to assemble a better Mythos RPG, but if I can't find a way to use it to tell the kinds of Mythos stories that really grab my imagination, I might as well stick with BRP.
Last edited by Mord on Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

A lot of early weird fiction horror crucially depends on questioning the stability of social structures that have historically changed substantially but also have been rejected by modern people for the most part. The big reveal of Medusa's Coils isn't that the sexy lady is a snake wizard, it's that she has managed to pass as white in polite society despite having substantial African ancestry. The big reveal is that people like Mariah Carrey exist. It's offensive yes, but it's also incomprehensible to the modern reader. Fear of miscegenation is no longer considered normal or reasonable.

Nor does the the reality of ultimate futility go without answer. The Christian claim of a narratively satisfying conclusion to the universe where good wins and we all sing the praises of a god forever is just not what's going to happen. The sun is going to run out of fuel and destroy the Earth in a nova of obliteration. The entire universe is going to keep expanding forever but all the stars will burn out and the univrse will drift away from itself in frozen darkness for an eternity of meaningless emptiness without life or care. And that's OK. Life is meaningless and we're all going to die and be forgotten and there's still things to do today and most likely there will be things to do tomorrow.

I'm a doctor and all of my patients will die some day. But every day I do what I can to make today not be that day. Existentialism perfectly answers Nihilism. We simply imagine Sisyphus to be happy.

The cosmic truths of Lovecraftian fiction are not things that people with a modern outlook can be expected to interact with in the same way. If extinction looms, the question becomes what we do today or the day after. Abject despair just isn't the result of the fundamental rejection of the Victorian worldview. The lack of centricity or supremacy for landed white men just doesn't bother me very much.

Which is a bit of a long walk to say that if we discover that the Yithians intend to steal our future from their past we'd just try to work out how time travel worked to figure out whether we could stop them. And even if it turns out that we cannot win in the end, we'd still strive to win in the now. We are all Sartre now.
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Post by maglag »

FrankTrollman wrote: I'm a doctor and all of my patients will die some day. But every day I do what I can to make today not be that day. Existentialism perfectly answers Nihilism. We simply imagine Sisyphus to be happy.
That's great to hear since many doctors consider it their work to make sure that day is the day their patient dies.
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Post by Iduno »

I've read a few of Lovecraft's stories, and the ones I've read are either: main character goes insane and dies because one of his ancestors got it on with someone from Africa, or someone finds a weird thing (blue vellum or The King in Yellow) and monsters start following them until they solve the riddle of the item they found.

So I guess if you wanted to make a game you've either got 1920's Fox and Friends, or you've got weird magic item of the week (with an occasional cult conspiracy) where the characters operate a museum or something. Past that, you've got the gamification you complained about and should be playing some sort of mechs and monsters thing.

I'd recommend the third one, because the second will get played out quickly, but you seem more interested in the second one. So what would be good mechanics for finding weird magic stuff that attracts monsters, and solving riddles? What if the character/players are significantly more intelligent than the other? What if the GM expects the players to read their mind?
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Post by shinimasu »

Blades in the Dark and The Sprawl try to address the player/character intelligence split by having the ability to retroactively declare stuff by spending meta currency on it. This is in addition to an actual planning phase, so you have the things you made plans for, and then an out for players struck by 'the wit of the stairs' when they realize that they probably should have had their character check out the weird puzzle door, but got distracted by a portrait of the baron instead.

I think something like that works well in a monster puzzle horror/mystery when your player inevitably slaps their forehead and goes "Shit I missed the obvious clue." Or more likely the obvious clue wasn't obvious at the time, but added context makes it obvious in retrospect.
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Post by rasmuswagner »

maglag wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: I'm a doctor and all of my patients will die some day. But every day I do what I can to make today not be that day. Existentialism perfectly answers Nihilism. We simply imagine Sisyphus to be happy.
That's great to hear since many doctors consider it their work to make sure that day is the day their patient dies.
The fuck, dude?!?

That's a really weird out-of-nowhere tangent. And your hyperbole has moved straight into flat-out-wrong-land.
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Post by erik »

Solomon Kane and Conan were Robert E Howard characters that had their fair share of adventures dealing with mythos threats. Even some of his western and Steve Kostigan stories had elements of the weird where humanity prevailed. I don’t think it is unreasonable to have games where you’re encountering horrors and defeating them. D&D is in many ways already emulating some of the stories drawn from HP Lovecraft and others.

It’s ok to instead want investigation games where combat isn’t the main focus, that’s just one way to go with a mythos game. I’d probably treat an investigation game kind of like D&D where your dungeon is all traps, in a fashion. You circumvent the horrors rather than defeat them toe to toe.

[edit: p.s. fuck off maglag. You're making me regret taking you off ignore]
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Post by OgreBattle »

I think the game should be about hurting people you can't hurt in real life without repercussion, using dark magic until it backfires on you.

Play as the cultist, play as the half fish half African passing as White to eat racists or something, that's more fun.
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Post by Chamomile »

rasmuswagner wrote:
maglag wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: I'm a doctor and all of my patients will die some day. But every day I do what I can to make today not be that day. Existentialism perfectly answers Nihilism. We simply imagine Sisyphus to be happy.
That's great to hear since many doctors consider it their work to make sure that day is the day their patient dies.
The fuck, dude?!?

That's a really weird out-of-nowhere tangent. And your hyperbole has moved straight into flat-out-wrong-land.
Seconding the confusion at how weird this is, though since it's maglag I very much expect the answer to be some incoherent gibberish thinly concealing a poorly thought out personal grudge. Particularly since it's specifically a link to the section on Nazi euthanasia, when "Nazi doctor" is recognized as referring to Bizarro doctors who use medical skills to do the opposite of standard medicine.
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Post by nockermensch »

I find Chambers' The King in Yellow an easier starting point if you want to do "mythos horror". A lot of Lovecraft's scary reveals simply hadn't... aged well, as Frank pointed.

But a lot of modern Real Life horror has to do with obscure agents hacking culture and society (usually to make peoples' lives worse). Including people coming to the realization that seemingly inocuous or harmless memes were actualy hate symbols all along.

If you add the supernatural element that certain works / memes / places will actually infect people, fucking up with their lives in a way that they'll never be normal again, then that's both scary and eerily relevant. So, if you want to do Lovercraft, my advice would be to use more The Color Out of Space and less At the Mountains of Madness.
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Post by Grek »

Step one to making a better version of Call of Cthulhu is the same as it is in any other RPG: write the beastiary. But for CoC, that means the cultists, not the monsters. The monsters can be whatever, you're up against the whole of the cult. You need to establish exactly why the cultists are in the cult. What the cult wants, what it fears, what they believe and what they don't know. In a wide variety of permutations. Ideally, there should be a Choose Your Own Cult section which points you toward a particular doctrine or a specific cult and then sends you via page reference to the part of the beastiary where you expound about the likely activities and capabilities of such organizations. Also, a build-your-own cult section with advice on giving them interesting hooks.

Then you need a core mechanic. Ideally, you want something that is focused around mystery progression, where the PCs want to find the next clue and their skills determine not whether they find it, but rather how much trouble they have to go through to find the clue. Can they sneak in and look around, or do they get caught and have to explain themselves? Can they bluff their way in? Fight their way out? Escape if captured? The assumption is that you'll eventually get the clue, there's no way to miss it (other than to get in so deep that the players collectively declare the clue 'not worth it') and definitely no fucking red herrings because those are bullshit and ruin campaigns.

Next you fill out the original cult writeups with numbers based on your core mechanic. If you're using dicepools, this is where you set thresholds. If you're using 1d100 for some stupid reason, this is where you set DCs. It's also where you stat up the monsters because, yes, you still want to represent in the rules what horrible things a Byakhee can do to you if the cult summons one. That doesn't need to be their game plan, but if it comes up, you don't want the DM's answer to be "I dunno, there's no rules for how fast they are so I guess you all get away?" After that and only after that, you do character generation. Each character is designed to handle the challenges you established during the prior step, and you don't do advancement because this isn't that sort of game. If anything, you do negative/transformative advancement where players progressively acquire scars and trauma and become grizzled hard-boiled assholes who don't fit into polite society anymore.
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Post by Mord »

FrankTrollman wrote:A lot of early weird fiction horror crucially depends on questioning the stability of social structures that have historically changed substantially but also have been rejected by modern people for the most part. The big reveal of Medusa's Coils isn't that the sexy lady is a snake wizard, it's that she has managed to pass as white in polite society despite having substantial African ancestry. The big reveal is that people like Mariah Carrey exist. It's offensive yes, but it's also incomprehensible to the modern reader. Fear of miscegenation is no longer considered normal or reasonable.
I left the racism issue out of my original post because I think that Lovecraft's fears can be generalized and updated in a way that modern audiences won't find instantly repugnant. Yes, Arthur Jermyn and Medusa's Coil are cartoonishly racist.

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Obligatory.

Rehabilitative readings of those stories in particular are neither desirable nor useful because such a reading can be nothing but an attempt to justify racism per se. However, a rehabilitative reading of Lovecraft in general is worth the effort because there is a kernel there that often manifests as irredeemably racist trash but is not intrinsically so.

Fear of miscegenation and racism in general in Lovecraft can be argued to be a special case of a general xenophobia or paranoia which is definitely something to work with. The best example of this that I can personally think of is that in one of his letters Lovecraft even threw shade on people from Massachusetts, which is utterly incomprehensible as an expression of racial hatred. I charitably understand it as a manifestation of an underlying pathological rejection of everyone, race being only the specific factor that he picked out to give voice to the underlying problem. Lovecraft looked out his front door and saw danger in literally everyone and everything; he happened to apply a racialist lens picked up from somewhere to interpret those feelings. The only people he didn't hate were the English, to the point where he identifed as English to an arguably delusional extent.

To call Lovecraft a racist is trivially true, but leaving it there doesn't go nearly far enough towards describing the way in which his head was deeply and clinically fucked up. Nor does it address the fact that the way in which he was fucked up resulted in some really interesting fiction. As unacceptable as Medusa obviously is, the exact same reveal works in The Shadow Over Innsmouth because Lovecraft opted for Deep Ones instead of Africans in the latter case. The vision of a world in which any person you meet, or even you yourself, might knowingly or unknowingly be some horrible inhuman thing definitely has legs.

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Six of them, to be exact.

It's even a peculiarly modern fear, what with the discovery of DNA and ongoing explorations into all the fascinating ways your DNA can go bad on you. If you have a family history of breast cancer or ALS or whatever the fuck, you are literally living in a body that could turn on you at any time and turn you into a corpse or, worse, the invalid husk of the person you were. And it's not like this is a xenomorph parasite doing this to you, the disease is part of what makes you you and you cannot separate from it. That's some cosmic fucking horror right there.

You can still have people metamorphosing spontaneously into Deep Ones as long as you leave out the part where this only happens to Gypsies, or do something equally retarded like write in that Japanese people in particular are actually a literal race of serpent-men from Mu.
FrankTrollman wrote:The cosmic truths of Lovecraftian fiction are not things that people with a modern outlook can be expected to interact with in the same way. If extinction looms, the question becomes what we do today or the day after. Abject despair just isn't the result of the fundamental rejection of the Victorian worldview. The lack of centricity or supremacy for landed white men just doesn't bother me very much.

Which is a bit of a long walk to say that if we discover that the Yithians intend to steal our future from their past we'd just try to work out how time travel worked to figure out whether we could stop them. And even if it turns out that we cannot win in the end, we'd still strive to win in the now. We are all Sartre now.
This is another hurdle in the way of having a real Cosmic Horror these days. People today are just too fucking optimistic. I blame Star Trek.

The idea of a universe in which the unknown may be weird and dangerous but ultimately something that we can triumph over, coexist with, or, failing either of those, meaningfully oppose, is baked into modern sensibilities to the point that Lovecraftian madness is a punch line. I've lately introduced my board gaming group to Arkham Horror, and for them, the notion of someone ending up in a lunatic asylum after seeing a Byakhee in the street is both confusing and funny; they just do not have the Victorian paranoiac frame of reference necessary to understand that different is dangerous. Granted that Arkham Horror sucks donkey balls, so whatever thematic content is in there will be tarnished by association, but even a superior game, such as Mansions of Madness 2e, that does a better job of portraying the Mythos in an appropriately spooky light still falls short of showing the players why they should be any more afraid of the Mythos goings-on than any mundane physical threat to the investigators and the townsfolk.

The disintegration of the Victorian rational worldview was, I think, half the reason why anyone gave two shits about Lovecraft's writing in the first place. The Great War showed everyone, Victorian white men especially, their own futility in the face of a soulless, mechanical war machine set in motion by men and fueled by men but seemingly beyond anyone's control. If Lovecraft hadn't been such a space case I'd call it a slam dunk that his Mythos writing was inspired by WWI, but I'm not going to say that because from what I've read, Lovecraft's inspiration was completely internal and his gloomy-ass thoughts on the futility of human endeavor just so happened to coincidentally align with what everyone else had just found out thanks to machine guns and mustard gas. I haven't studied his letters at very great length, but from what I have read, Lovecraft didn't seem to be much of a guy to dwell on the horrors of war; rather, even after it was over and everyone who went (who came back) came back shattered, he still regretted having missing out.

But, regarding those who did come back - they would certainly be receptive to fiction that could put to words their newborn suspicion that history had somehow slipped the reins of men, that the comforting old ways of thought no longer held and indeed were never true in the first place. Throw in the Great Depression, another World War, and the subsequent and perpetual threat of atomic global holocaust, and you have two or three generations of people who were actually living out a cosmic horror story. I think this is probably why Derleth was able to keep on finding collaborators for Arkham House and readers for its products; it's inconceivable to me that Lovecraft's ideas wouldn't have had the ring of truth to them in the Cold War world. Cthulhu rising, Cuban Missile Crisis, same difference we all die anyway.

A funny thing happened on the way to Doomsday, though - while everyone was supposed to be cowering in existential terror of the nightmare the world had turned into, all these fuckers got used to the idea! It turns out that people can, in fact, get used to anything. Lovecraft was supposed to be showing people exactly how and why the only reasonable course of action is to just lay down and die and get it over with, but instead he ended up playing suicide hotline operator! Fucking Sartre. Today if I say to the man on the street, "Did you know that the world you live in is a fragile veneer of normality over an uncaring universe, that we could all die at any moment at the whim of beings unknown to us for reasons having nothing to do with ourselves, and that as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, nothing anyone ever did with their life has ever mattered?" his response, if any, will be "Yes, of course; now if you'll excuse me, I need to retweet Sonic the Hedgehog." What do you even do with that?

How can you even begin to get someone to be afraid of the Big Unknown when we've been living under the Big Unknown for three generations and our entire culture and philosophy have evolved to keep us sane and smiling under circumstances that would almost certainly have sent old Howard into a months-long depressive malaise? When Lovecraft's own works may have contributed to helping us get over that hump? I think the trick to modern cosmic horror is to attack people's sense of individuality rather than their sense of belonging - I don't want to put in another photo from The Thing but John Carpenter fucking nailed it.

No one is scared of the Big Unknown anymore and you can't force them to be. But you can scare them with depersonalization, with attacks on their identity and motivations and genetic makeup. But you have to address those kinds of themes differently in an RPG context versus a movie. How do you play The Thing with a group of PCs? "When Pete tests Jerry's blood, it leaps out of the petri dish. Jerry grows fourteen extra pairs of arms and his head sprouts a thousand teeth and starts telescoping out of his neck." "Wait, when did I become a Thing?" "Fuck you, that's when, Jerry."
nockermensch wrote:But a lot of modern Real Life horror has to do with obscure agents hacking culture and society (usually to make peoples' lives worse). Including people coming to the realization that seemingly inocuous or harmless memes were actualy hate symbols all along.

If you add the supernatural element that certain works / memes / places will actually infect people, fucking up with their lives in a way that they'll never be normal again, then that's both scary and eerily relevant. So, if you want to do Lovercraft, my advice would be to use more The Color Out of Space and less At the Mountains of Madness.
Grek wrote:Step one to making a better version of Call of Cthulhu is the same as it is in any other RPG: write the beastiary. But for CoC, that means the cultists, not the monsters. The monsters can be whatever, you're up against the whole of the cult.
I think that that's really where this will have to go, if it is to go anywhere. The main attraction has to be the cults and the human antagonists rather than the monsters or the deities or the magic. I think that we will have to leave behind any intention of trying to capture Lovecraftian Cosmic Horror (capital letters!), since for all the reasons above and more, that dog won't hunt.

So, to have any chance at all of making cosmic horror work in an RPG setting, we have to get up close and personal; we have to get really into the human side of things, which is something that H. P. doesn't seem to have ever been really comfortable with or made any real effort to explore in his works. His narrators aren't usually all that emotional even when they go mad; he doesn't seem like a guy who could even have wrapped his mind around an emotional response to the world. I've fallen into the exact same thought trap as Chaosium; instead of thinking about gods and monsters, I should be thinking about desperate people in terrible situations doing horrible, desperate things to other people like rats in a trap. Which reminds me of the cyberpunk manifesto: "Anything that can be done to a rat can be done to a human being. And we can do most anything to rats."

Less emphasis on the god the cult is sacrificing hobos to, more emphasis on why each cultist would want to sacrifice hobos to a god in the first place. More emphasis on how the hobos feel about getting caught up in all this. More emphasis on how the investigator feels when they find the hobo altar. I think I can work with this.
maglag wrote:That's great to hear since many doctors consider it their work to make sure that day is the day their patient dies.
Thanks for dropping by to let us know you're a stupid asshole.
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Post by Korwin »

I honestly think an good 'Horror' RPG is not possible.
Either the 'horror' is an joke, because you can't relate to it.
Or you can relate to it (you had cancer, you where raped) and why the fuck would you want to play such an game?

That being said, I'm currently playing an CoC game, but it's under the premise of mystery solving not Horrr. And it's doing an bad Job at that...
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Mord wrote: "Did you know that the world you live in is a fragile veneer of normality over an uncaring universe, that we could all die at any moment at the whim of beings unknown to us for reasons having nothing to do with ourselves, and that as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, nothing anyone ever did with their life has ever mattered?"
I can't help but imagine Mythos missionaries going door to door with this exact pitch....
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by Username17 »

Mord wrote:No one is scared of the Big Unknown anymore and you can't force them to be. But you can scare them with depersonalization, with attacks on their identity and motivations and genetic makeup.
Not really, no. Very few people think White Christian Men are the top of the universe anymore, and the "revelation" that you might not be one doesn't elicit much fear. Indeed, finding out that you have fish ancestors and water breathing powers isn't horror anymore, it's the fucking origin story of Aqua Man. The modern cuckoo fantasy isn't "you're rally a princess, a very white princess." It's:

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The mutants in X-Men aren't the horror part. Those X-Men stories that dabble in Horror do so through the reaction of society to the mutants. Get Out is horror because society is weirdly cruel to black people, not because black people exist.

The rejection horror simply is not the same in a modern multi-cultural society as it was in the Victorian segregated societies Lovecraft foresaw the doom of. We no longer fear that there will be others, we now fear that lynch mobs will attack us or people we care about for being others. To the modern educated eye, racism is the villain. After World War II, the people who worry about which among us are "really human" have gotten a really bad rap - and deservedly so.

The horror of Innsmouth isn't the fact that some people are really fish people. It isn't even that you might actually be a fish and not really a human. The horror is that the government might send submarines to shoot torpedoes into an undersea housing development because of racially proscriptive ideas about who counts as a citizen.

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Longes
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Post by Longes »

Mord wrote:I left the racism issue out of my original post because I think that Lovecraft's fears can be generalized and updated in a way that modern audiences won't find instantly repugnant.
I'd argue that the Lovecraftian horror that aged the best is also the Lovecraftian horror that is least playable, because things that aged the best are incredibly small scale and personal. Like the isolation from humanity in the "Outsider", or being fucked by the things you are born with and can't choose, like in "Shadow Over Innsmouth".
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Post by hogarth »

Korwin wrote:I honestly think an good 'Horror' RPG is not possible.
Either the 'horror' is an joke, because you can't relate to it.
Or you can relate to it (you had cancer, you where raped) and why the fuck would you want to play such an game?
Are you suggesting that nobody reads depressing fiction (say), except as unintentional comedy? That seems like a stretch.

My experience is that Call of Cthulhu campaigns don't work, but one-shots (where the PCs inevitably lose, or have a Pyrrhic victory) can be occasionally entertaining.
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Post by DrPraetor »

Every genre has problems when you adapt it to an RPG context. Superhero comics often have a trope where the team splits up - this is undesirable in an RPG, except in so far as players may be missing for a given session.

The deep genre problem with most weird fiction, is not the depression or futility or whatever. The problem is, the characters seldom interact with the setting, except to look at it.

This can make an entertaining read. An interview can be very entertaining and interesting, even though literally-nothing-happens. But, it isn't the foundation for an RPG!

Now, my two favorite HP Lovecraft stories are:
The Colour out of Space
The Music of Erich Zann

but in both of these stories, the lone protagonist shows up, sees something weird, and leaves. That's it!

Also there are no cultists, by the way.

The closest to an RPG setup is, I think, in At the Mountains of Madness, where the characters dig up some frozen elder things and would probably be able to communicate with them if they were somewhat smarter than that particular team. But, at that rate, you are even-then writing an entire adventure out of whole cloth because you're dealing with an entirely different talk to the aliens arc and only then do you worry about Shoggoths and suchnot.

So, you can make an RPG that uses Lovecraft tropes but all of the RPG elements are stuff you have to bring to the table yourself, so there's no reason to make it a goal or a claim that you're going to hew to Lovecraft's original material very closely.[/url]
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Post by Korwin »

hogarth wrote:
Korwin wrote:I honestly think an good 'Horror' RPG is not possible.
Either the 'horror' is an joke, because you can't relate to it.
Or you can relate to it (you had cancer, you where raped) and why the fuck would you want to play such an game?
Are you suggesting that nobody reads depressing fiction (say), except as unintentional comedy? That seems like a stretch.
Reading a book, I get depressed or sad or whatever (depending on the book*). In a group situation, in an rpg where I get to decide what my char is doing? Not so much...
My experience is that Call of Cthulhu campaigns don't work, but one-shots (where the PCs inevitably lose, or have a Pyrrhic victory) can be occasionally entertaining.
Entertaining sounds like you had fun?
Did you feel sad after the one shot? Depressed?

What do you expect to feel in an 'Horror' RPG?
Maybe it's only my misconception what an Horror-RPG should be like?

* To be honest, I will stop reading a book if it feels too depressing.
Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
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Post by Iduno »

Josh_Kablack wrote:
Mord wrote: "Did you know that the world you live in is a fragile veneer of normality over an uncaring universe, that we could all die at any moment at the whim of beings unknown to us for reasons having nothing to do with ourselves, and that as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, nothing anyone ever did with their life has ever mattered?"
I can't help but imagine Mythos missionaries going door to door with this exact pitch....
So, Sithrak's missionaries? I'll avoid linking as it's from Oglaf.
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Post by shlominus »

fool! always link to oglaf whenever an opportunity presents itself!

https://www.oglaf.com/sithrak/
https://www.oglaf.com/geewoks/
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Post by shinimasu »

Entertaining sounds like you had fun?
Did you feel sad after the one shot? Depressed?

What do you expect to feel in an 'Horror' RPG?
Maybe it's only my misconception what an Horror-RPG should be like?
Horror games are fun in the same way horror movies are fun or scary stories are fun. Some people just like the rush of adrenaline. Horror tabletops are harder since groups feel like safety to our lizard brains, but if the DM can subvert that sense of safety then it's right back into adrenaline land for you.

In games that seek to emulate horror genres where there aren't really "winners" then you might play for a couple different reasons. To see how far you can get before the messy ending, to explore how they get there, to wonder if maybe someone in the party manages to beat the odds. And if everyone buys in to the idea that they're probably going to die, then losing doesn't feel unfair. You knew what you were signing up for when you started.

I personally enjoy horror games because I like seeing what happens when the characters act like human beings with sense instead of piles of tropes. Usually it's still "at least half of you die horribly" but it feels like that misfortune was "earned" instead of contrived. Like you did everything right but the monster still got you, but then that's just kind of life isn't it?
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Always seemed a bit hard to me to make Lovecraft into an RPG.

Lovecraft's stories are scary in large part due to his writing style, just walking down the street is made to be creepy before anything happens. And almost invariably, the protagonist is unaware that there's something scary happening until the monster is showing baby pics and trying to hook him up with its sister. Which if you've sat down to play a game with Cthullu in the name, doesn't really apply.

Also, the protagonist tends to wander off without even trying to do anything about the problem. In Colour Out of Space, he could have warned people about some strange thing that'd taint the water supply. Don't go all magic meteor about it, just mention unknown toxins a few times. But he does nothing, and so lots of people of Massachusetts are drinking alien contaminated water, which can't be good for them. (As an aside, Massachusetts voted mostly for Democrats in the last federal election, which Lovecraft would have seen as terrible, so...). That doesn't seem like classic player behaviour.

Oh, and yeah, racism and other social issues, but those have been gone over already.

Mind you, never played Call of Cthullu myself, so maybe there's some clever way around that I've missed.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

The unknown can still cause fear for the players around the table. Frequently, bad guys show up and you throw down. Horror comes best when you don't see them. Jaws is scariest when the shark isn't on screen.

One time when I was a player and we were all scared was exploring a wilderness with grass taller than our head. Realizing that we'd be walking into the grass and couldn't hope to see anything lurking for us was a problem. The one sentence description of the stalks of grass crowding our vision and the sounds of our companions rustling through the grass inches away invisibly was terrifying. I was literally envisioning Velociraptors taking us out one-by-one without anyone realizing. A feeling of helplessness combined with the unknown were powerful.

Similarly, one scary encounter involved the party camped in a Leomund's Hut. Intermittent scratching at the door had them on edge. If a villain had burst through the door they could have handled that (that's normal!). But the idea that something wanted to come in, revealed it's presence and waited was worrisome. The whole party got ready for a fight and argued whether to open the door or wait.

It's definitely harder to create a sense of cosmic horror, but it is also impossible to maintain the tension indefinitely. In an RPG you need to release the tension as you build up to a bigger reveal.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

If you really wanted to keep the "oh my god there's something terrible inside me" you'd probably just work with "regular" old mental illness rather than weird racist crap. This even fits Lovecraft's biography (IIRC) as his mother had a breakdown when he was young, got institutionalized, and basically gave him a fear of mental illness. You could certainly run something where instead of being "a fish dude" you have a family history of Alzheimer's instead (speaking from experience Alzheimer's is terrifying) and you come up with some kind of mechanic where you try to prevent this instead.

Really, a lot of the terror of Lovecraft is that his protagonists are all the same sheltered vaguely educated white dude actually leaving the basement for once in their lives, and then going back into the basement whining about how they met a black dude on the street. You're mining Lovecraft for the barely fleshed out mythos and evocative names, and most of his themes (aside from Scary Monster, AAAA!) get thrown by the wayside.

You also need to deal with players inevitably wanting to play sorcerers and cultists rather than generic boring sheltered white people.

Unfortunately at that point we're just re-inventing Vampire, the Masquerade, and is that really what we're after?
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