The Biden Administration (No Lago)

[Kaelik]

Well it's good to know that dead's wife along with thinking providing medical care is evil communism she also is not opposed to genocide.

No no, like deaddm she opposes genocide the right way, by supporting the genocide, thinking the US should continue to arm the genocide, being very sure that the people being genocide are a genocidal threat and that every Palestinian is thirsting for Israeli blood, and criticizing people who oppose the genocide the wrong way.

You however, oppose genocide the wrong way, by having an opinion about dropping bombs on children without first knowing about the Ottoman Empire.

To be slightly generous, impossible to know how much of that post was deaddm's addition. It's possible she just thinks he's a dumbass for posting here and didn't actually say that people have to know about the league of nations before they can have opinions on whether genocide is bad.

[MGuy]

It could very well be that dead enjoys making his wife sound like an idiot in a dumb attempt to make his takes sound less bad. I don't personally see the appeal. I also, personally, don't need any more reason to oppose an apartheid state or genocide outside of the fact that it is happening.

This does make for yet another instance dead has brought nuance to a conversation by exposing how little they know about what's been going on. I've been watching experts on talk about how shit Israel is since the March for Peace in the pre-covid era. Prior to that all I knew about Israel and Palestine was that they had a complicated relationship. Turns out the more informed you are about it the more horrific Israel seems.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

I think DeadDMs wife was concerned about our historical ignorance and then went and looked... I mean indirectly sent DeadDM to go and look up the WRONG articles on Wikipedia about the wrong bits of the history in response to me mocking his MORON LEVEL claim that Jordan and Saudi Arabia could influence Israel's policy towards Palestinians more than the USA could.

See the way DeadDMs easily read mind works is, he got mocked because he didn't know that Jordan and Saudi Arabia have dick all influence over Israel, but the USA has historically ended Israeli massacre sprees more than once with SINGLE PHONE CALLS as long as the president that makes them threatens to cut off military aid. That mocking mentioned history and his ignorance of it.

And he thinks that if he quick smart sneaks a look in at Wikipedia Ottoman's and League of Nations stuff, boom THAT is actually the relevant history he can now refer to that proves he isn't an ignorant brain rotted moron who doesn't understand the most basic thing about the conflict and how different countries can and have diplomatically engaged with it.

But I bet he will still die defending the hill that Jordan has strong influence over Israel rather than being just part of a large area on a map that Zionists openly plan to annex some time "next".

edit: You know I want to clarify. Wikipedia isn't bad. Doing a last minute brush up research isn't bad. But DeadDM seems to exemplify stereotypical internet ignorance time and time again. Making statements that prove total ignorance of a topic, being mocked for it, then suddenly coming back in after what looks a lot like a quick skim of a wikipedia article (or as it often turns out worse, an NYT article) and only manages to name drop a couple of references while still demonstrating a total lack of actual understanding of the topic.

[Kaelik]

I actually think the reason dead stupidly thought KSA could or would do anything was because he has vaguely heard Bidens fake plan to have the KSA run Gaza and rebuild it after Israel totally doesn't genocide all the Palestinians and got confused.

Lord knows an extremely basic knowledge of "the conflict" (which is just what we call decades of aparthied and wars of conquest by Israel because accuracy doesn't sound neutral) would tell people that Egypt is the country that actually acts as moderator in all the various ceasefire negotiations whenever the US president tells israel its time to stop bombing.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

I'm going to counter your counter with the Trump Abraham Accords and say that DeadDMs shallow name dropping understanding of basically everything resulted in a muddling of that and other NYT articles mentioning diplomacy and hostage negotiations. He was most likely operating under a hazy xerox of a xerox of a xerox of the Genocide Joe interpretation of the Trump era diplomatic policy redigested for the sort of audience that would still vote Hillary in the next presidential election.

[phlapjackage]

My wife thinks it's a waste of time to discuss politics on a gaming forum, especially with people who don't know the historical context of the conflict.

I don't think a lot of the discussion and pushback you're getting is about politics though (unless you say that everything is politics, but let's not).

I admit, I don't know a lot of the historical context here. It's why I'm not engaging in most of the discussion because I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about re:history.

But you can't look at what's going on with the Israel/Palestine situation and say, "you know, it's complicated. You need to understand the historical context". That's a fucking genocide and by their own fucking admission, Israel is doing it and the US is aiding Israel in doing it. It needs to stop yesterday, and to say anything less is morally reprehensible.

No milquetoast abstract "yes genocide is bad" or "they both hate each other, whatareyougonnado?" Fucking call for an immediate ceasefire, and demand our leaders to actually force a ceasefire instead of what they're doing now*. Then once children aren't being mass murdered, then you can start talking about politics and historical context and all that other stuff I don't know much about. It's not hard man.

*Bonus points if you don't try to deflect and whataboutism to some other terrible shit happening in the world.

[deaddmwalking]

I meant as a starting point, but sure, that's a good summation of my previous statement of 'it's complicated'.

I think it's a little surprising that people on this very thread are upset about illegal immigration into the Levant from 1916 on, but argue that all immigration into the United States should be permitted at the present moment.

It's almost like an influx of foreigners that have a different set of political and social values can change the nature of a geographic tract by their presence. Possibly in ways that the current occupying majority would dislike.

In any case, there are a lot of reasons we got to where we are now. It's easy to say 'so and so never should have done x', bit it's impossible to undo. There isn't a fair way to resolve this conflict as far as the people who are alive today and have lived their whole lives after 1948. More to the point, there isn't a way to solve it without the application of violence and very little reason for the United States to choose military action against a perceived ally. There is a lot that you can say Israel has done and is doing that’s wrong, but that’s true for the U.S. and every other country.

I favor a resolution that leaves Israel intact but doesn't include a fast genocide (like since Oct 4th) or a slow genocide (the embargo in effect before Oct 4th).

[Thaluikhain]

There is a lot that you can say Israel has done and is doing that’s wrong, but that’s true for the U.S. and every other country.

[MGuy]

Oh. So dead is on that brown people are coming to take America for themselves jam.

[Kaelik]

I think it's a little surprising that people on this very thread are upset about illegal immigration into the Levant from 1916 on, but argue that all immigration into the United States should be permitted at the present moment.

It's almost like an influx of foreigners that have a different set of political and social values can change the nature of a geographic tract by their presence. Possibly in ways that the current occupying majority would dislike.

This is literally just the first few minutes of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqCCx4wj79o

But seriously instead of as a joke. They didn't "come in with new values" the british conquered them and created two states and then one of the states waged multiple wars of conquest to conquer land and eventually all land from the other state.

The Zionist movement was opposed in it's time by an alternative Jewish movement to move to Palestine and become equal citizens of a state instead of conquereing colonizers. But the evil side won.


But nice to know that Deaddm is still doing genocide apologia where he now pretends that the Trail of Tears is just white people IMMIGRATING.

There isn't a fair way to resolve this conflict as far as the people who are alive today and have lived their whole lives after 1948.

Quite aside from all the wars of conquest after 1948, including the one RIGHT NOW WHERE THEY ARE GENOCIDING PEOPLE TO SEIZE GAZA, there is in fact a fair way to resolve "this conflict" again, using the words "this conflict" are explicit genocide apologia that deaddm keeps using. It's called There's a state where everyone has equal political rights and Palestinians get the same right of return that Israel has been offering to Philadelphian dudes for decades and you don't get to have an ethnostate.

More to the point, there isn't a way to solve it without the application of violence and very little reason for the United States to choose military action against a perceived ally.

It's very weird that "there's no non violent way to stop the ongoing genocide, so we have to keep arming the people doing the genocide" is the argument. It seems like at the very minimum you could stop arming the people doing the genocide and see if that stops the genocide non violently. But it's also very weird to say that there's no non violent solution so we have to do a genocide. Seems like a bad logic!

[Kaelik]

Oh. So dead is on that brown people are coming to take America for themselves jam.

He's actually been on that for a couple months now, ever since Joe Biden said he would close the border. Almost like democratic politicians adopting right wing policies is bad because it makes a bunch of people who get all their signals from democratic politicians suddenly adopt a bunch of evil right wing policies.

[MGuy]

You know I gave dead too much credit. I thought that he was just repeating the whole 'big number immigrants is bad' line for big number is scary reasons. I had assumed that beyond that dead hadn't given a single thought about how the immigration system works or the problems with it. I didn't think he'd actually absorbed the white genocide talk. Get dead to talk long enough and the mask is just going to fall off I guess.

[phlapjackage]

Goddam dude. So you don't think there's a genocide happening (just a "conflict"), and even if there were a genocide, you wouldn't approve military force to stop an ongoing genocide. What is there even left to say.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

See I told him that Genocide Joe going all in on the refugee bashing would only make his nation more racist, as proven by international precedents, and now look what happened, the racism got him.

Now he's caught a full case of white supremacist, which he should have been on the look out for it as shit libs should know by now that its a condition they are highly susceptible to.

[violence in the media]

I like how Dead dived into whataboutism immediately after phlaphackage offered bonus points if he could avoid doing so.

[PseudoStupidity]

I meant as a starting point, but sure, that's a good summation of my previous statement of 'it's complicated'.

I think it's a little surprising that people on this very thread are upset about illegal immigration into the Levant from 1916 on, but argue that all immigration into the United States should be permitted at the present moment.

It's almost like an influx of foreigners that have a different set of political and social values can change the nature of a geographic tract by their presence. Possibly in ways that the current occupying majority would dislike.

In any case, there are a lot of reasons we got to where we are now. It's easy to say 'so and so never should have done x', bit it's impossible to undo. There isn't a fair way to resolve this conflict as far as the people who are alive today and have lived their whole lives after 1948. More to the point, there isn't a way to solve it without the application of violence and very little reason for the United States to choose military action against a perceived ally. There is a lot that you can say Israel has done and is doing that’s wrong, but that’s true for the U.S. and every other country.

I favor a resolution that leaves Israel intact but doesn't include a fast genocide (like since Oct 4th) or a slow genocide (the embargo in effect before Oct 4th).

This is such a crazy post! Holy shit! We aren't talking about immigration when we're talking about Israel and Palestine, we're talking about settlers who were colonizing land and oppressing (and murdering) the people who inhabited that land! As everyone else has already said, you are just being racist here. Like, Tucker Carlson Great Replacement levels of racism. Your second and third paragraphs are totally indistinguishable from the shit Carlson says about immigrants in the US, and I hope you take a good, hard look in the mirror and say those words out loud. Listen to that filth and consider if you want to continue saying things like that. Gross, dude.

Was supporting the Democrats worth saying a bunch of racist shit? Is Biden going to pat your head and give your hair a tussle (and sniff, hey-o)?

And obviously for the remainder of the post, who cares that you can't take things back? Active genocide is happening, active genocide needs to stop. After the genocide is done active apartheid will be happening, and that will also need to stop. There is also a fair way to end this and it has been articulated by many people. We need to create a single state that gives equal rights to all of its citizens, any two-state solution is a stopgap to enable this.

[deaddmwalking]

Goddam dude. So you don't think there's a genocide happening (just a "conflict"), and even if there were a genocide, you wouldn't approve military force to stop an ongoing genocide. What is there even left to say.

No, I think the genocide is happening. I think it has been happening since before October 4th. I think that there are a lot of tools the U.S. has to affect policy in other countries short of military force and we should use them.

Who on this site was arguing that the United States should invade Myanmar to stop the genocide of the Rohingya? Maybe it's because adding more military forces would actually result in more killing, not less?

I called Kaelik out on his bold faced lie (or joke) that Biden would be happy to bomb New York. When it became clear that he is advocating for the dissolution of Israel I also made sure that everyone is aware that's what he's doing. That's not popular with the American people.

I'm also not advocating that Hawaii should be made a country ruled over by a Queen because that's how it was 130 years ago. If you go back far enough someone else has some claim to the spot you're living and they'd like it back please. Kaelik's suggestion that we all migrate to the Philippines where he thinks we'll all be welcome is a distraction from the reality - the people in Israel aren't going anywhere without a fight. Any suggestion that they should ignores the reality as it exists today. You can make all kinds of pronouncements about how such and such event happened the 'wrong way' and if it had happened the right way we wouldn't be in this situation, but you can't actually change the past.

Netanyahu is meeting with Biden on Thursday. I expect a change in Israeli policy on or before that point. That doesn't excuse their behavior up to this point, or bring anyone back to life. I of course don't expect anyone on this board to see the end of the active genocide as their actual goal, or to be satisfied with any actions that restore dignity and political self-direction to the Palestinians. Nor do I expect any of them to grapple with the very real questions of maintaining security in the face of established ethnic hatred or how to ensure protections for minority groups in unbreakable law. You know, to actually admit that this is complicated.

[deaddmwalking]

We aren't talking about immigration when we're talking about Israel and Palestine, we're talking about settlers who were colonizing land and oppressing (and murdering) the people who inhabited that land!

I think that's a very one-sided description of events and is inconsistent with established historical evaluation of the conflict.

[phlapjackage]

Who on this site was arguing that the United States should invade Myanmar to stop the genocide of the Rohingya?

1. What is it with you and whataboutism ? Can you not argue your point without trying to distract with something else ?
2. If the US were giving billions of dollars and military equipment to Myanmar, everyone would/should argue that at the very fucking least, the fucking least, we should stop doing that immediately. Not wait a few months to have a meeting and another meeting and a stern finger-wagging and maybe draft a resolution (probably non-binding!) or whatever.
3. "invade" is such a loaded term. Surely you can see other ways military force could be used that don't include "invasion".

I of course don't expect anyone on this board to see the end of the active genocide as their actual goal, or to be satisfied with any actions that restore dignity and political self-direction to the Palestinians. Nor do I expect any of them to grapple with the very real questions of maintaining security in the face of established ethnic hatred or how to ensure protections for minority groups in unbreakable law.

You know that saying, where when it seems like everyone around you is the asshole, maybe you're really the asshole?

You know, to actually admit that this is complicated.

'this' = stopping the active genocide in Gaza? That the US is actively supporting by continuing to give shit tons of money and weapons to the ones doing the genocide? Doesn't seem very complicated to just...stop doing that. At the fucking least.

[deaddmwalking]

I believe that Israel should stop their incursion into Gaza, immediately.

As far as whether or not the United States should continue providing them money or weapons and/or to what degree that depends on their willingness to stop their incursion into Gaza, immediately, it's not really as simple as just saying that's what we're going to do. It actually takes legal action.

I've been happy to use the term genocide and agree fully that it's morally repugnant. But even the question of whether it qualifies as a genocide is a super-complicated deep-dive into semantics. Ultimately, that's immaterial - people are dying when they shouldn't be dying and we know why those people are dying and we know that Israel can stop the killing at any moment. They should just do that.

What you or I or the American government should do to make that happen, well, well-meaning people will disagree.


Edit - And even if I admit that I'm an asshole, that doesn't change the fact that I'm surrounded by assholes.

[PseudoStupidity]

We aren't talking about immigration when we're talking about Israel and Palestine, we're talking about settlers who were colonizing land and oppressing (and murdering) the people who inhabited that land!

I think that's a very one-sided description of events and is inconsistent with established historical evaluation of the conflict.

Dead, did the Palestinians ever get a say in whether or not they were going to get their country carved up by the British? Did the British colonial government represent Palestinians? If not, how the fuck isn't it literally a settler-colonial state (and thus make all the people who immigrated to Israel settlers of a colonized land)?

You don't need to answer any of that, you have truly shattered any illusion that you are a decent person and I hope you become a less disgusting individual in the future. It was kind of funny when you defended Democrats in spite of all the evidence that they suck, it's not funny when you defend genocide, colonialism, and apartheid.

[MGuy]

Dead cannot tell the difference between colonial powers displacing people and stealing their land continuously for many many years and immigration. He can't tell the difference between there being a conflict in a country that we don't have a hand in and actively enabling a country to do genocide. Hell at this point it I'd need proof to even believe he actually recognizes that the US isn't JUST complicit in the genocide but is also actively aiding it. He seems to think that it would be difficult to just stop sending them weapons. He seems to think saying 'doing things is complicated' is a real counter argument to 'we should stop doing things to aid in genocide'.

Unprompted he's questioning whether or not genocide is even the right word, somehow has convinced himself that everyone who is immediately and firmly against genocide is not concerned about the victims of that genocide, and now is trying to find solace in believing that everyone else who can accurately understand that he is a piece of shit must also be equally shitty as him. That last one is really strange because he's the only one who has defended genocide and the president who has only helped the continuation of that genocide. He's the only one who's complicit about it happening. He's the only one doing whataboutisms where this is concerned. He's the only one regurgitating White Replacement Theory level rhetoric about brown people immigrating to America (something I will note that has nothing to do with Israel/Palestine). He's the only one concerned about how dangerous the civilians being bombed currently are to the state currently massacring them. Compared to what? Everyone else pointing out how shitty his positions have been, currently are, and will likely continue to be?

Edit: Special note. I said before that if dead were posting in the civil rights era he'd be one of those white liberals that MLK complained about. He'd probably 'say' he was for equal rights but be handwringing about disruptive marches, potential violence, and how dangerous it would be to move too fast. Here he is giving evidence that if he were posting back before America participated in WW2 that it would be better for America to have abstained than to fight Nazis because actually stopping them would involve violence.

[phlapjackage]

I believe that Israel should stop their incursion into Gaza, immediately.

I don't know if you're doing it on purpose or it's just the product of the media you consume, but have you noticed that you won't actually say the words "active genocide in Gaza", even though you vaguely claim to be against "it"? It's not just semantics. It's a tactic used by those who want to deny that a genocide is actively happening right now in Gaza and the US is actively aiding that genocide. And yeah, there are active genocides in other parts of the world too, but let's stay on track and keep talking about this one. If you want to talk about another one, start a new thread please.

As far as whether or not the United States should continue providing them money or weapons and/or to what degree that depends on their willingness to stop their incursion into Gaza, immediately, it's not really as simple as just saying that's what we're going to do. It actually takes legal action.

WTF is 'legal action'. You mean, 'legal action' like the US govt agreeing to continue funding Israel and even considering addl funding to support Israel in the 'conflict' ? That kind of legal action ?

It's just such a tired argument - there's an inexhaustible amount of money and political will to do terrible things, but ask the govt to do something like fund Medicare For All or god forbid, stop funding the genocide in Gaza, and suddenly it's "complicated" and would need "legal action".

[MGuy]

Just want to highlight that we are not just continuing to fund Israel. We represent, are, and have acted as a violent threat to any force that wants to a stop to what Israel is doing. We have acted against and prevent any legal sanctions others might want to put on Israel for committing a genocide. Just giving them weapons and money is only a part of how the US has been very helpful in the continuation of this particular apartheid state's genocidal ambitions.

[phlapjackage]

Just want to highlight that we are not just continuing to fund Israel. We represent, are, and have acted as a violent threat to any force that wants to a stop to what Israel is doing. We have acted against and prevent any legal sanctions others might want to put on Israel for committing a genocide. Just giving them weapons and money is only a part of how the US has been very helpful in the continuation of this particular apartheid state's genocidal ambitions.

Thanks for highlighting this. I'm getting carried away only harping on the funding aspect.

I'm guessing these are all 'legal actions' ?