Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

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The Adventurer's Almanac
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Thanks for the feedback! :cool: I'll just jump right into it.
merxa wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:41 pm
Xd6 skills. I am somewhat partial to this as i’m focusing on a 3d6 game engine, but i strongly suspect the skill DC math for xd6 skill checks will not work out smoothly, especially when say a challenge must be done by multiple characters, it’s likely some will outright be unable to succeed and others will find the DC trivial, so players may encounter many challenges where they are succeeding 90%+ of the time or failing at the same (or higher) rate, with relatively little inbetween.

Just as an example, you average 3.5 on 1d6, so every d6 gives you +3.5, so at 2d6 you’re averaging 7, which is impossible to achieve on 1d6, 4d6 you’re averaging 14, impossible to achieve at 2d6. Or say 3d6, averages 10.5, but 2d6 will only roll 10,11,12 one out 6 times. If say the expectation is PCs are running around with 3d6 and 4d6 in skills, you’re looking 10 and 14 as averages, and ranges of 3-18, 4-24, achieving dc 11 on 4d6 ~84%, and 50% at 3d6. If you move it up to say 15, you achieve that ~44% at 4d6 but merely ~9% at 3d6. As you can see, there isn’t a big ‘sweet’ spot, you very quickly accelerate down both sides of the probability hill.

If you really like the Xd6 skill system, my suggestion is use a bigger die, like a 1d10 or 1d12, that should help a tiny bit by giving a larger range where someone with 3d12 and another with 4d12 are looking at a dc 20 check and neither are feeling abject defeat or laughing off the trivial dc, even the 2d12 character can feel like they have a chance instead of no chance. My preferred solution to you is instead pick one, ie 3d6, and try to get that right, balancing it against Xd6 is i think too hard and will cause too many headaches, and Xd12 isn’t really a fix either.
In my defense, I do have a bunch of probabilities written out at the very end of the PDF, for both one-off rolls as well as rolls over a sustained period.

An important part of the game is that I do want things to be dramatically different as you progress from Tier 1 to Tier 4. One thing I like about xd6 is is that it quickly scales up on the lower end while raising the overall ceiling of numbers to a not-insane level. Additionally, each level grows more consistent at performing 'simpler' tasks than the last. DCs scale from 4 (totally trivial) to about 22, I think. The DC 4 is only a problem for the most pathetic of characters and anything beyond that quickly makes it impossible to fail. The DC 22 is completely impossible until you have at least 4d6 in that skill, and even then you'd have to get super lucky or use the Finesse power to maximize your skill roll. You aren't even supposed to regularly succeed on those checks unless you're a giga-badass. The expectation is that PCs are running around with 1d6 and 7d6-8d6 in some skills and 2d6-5d6 for the rest. If you can't do it, and nobody else in your team can, AND none of ANYONE'S pokemon can... then maybe the party should consider alternative solutions. Between 4-10 controllable characters in the early-game and 10-20 in the late-game, there are tons of options at your disposal. A DC 14 isn't even something that should regularly show up until the party hits tier 2 and has access to 5th rank skills.
merxa wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:41 pm
Status Afflictions, I don’t really understand how they are applied and everything that determines the tier, but the step from tier 3 to tier 4 is dramatic, from damage to death in many cases. My intuition tells me you probably want a buffer tier or two between being on fire and getting vaporized. Keeping with fire, catching on fire is listed as DC 12 – returning to the Xd6, you have 0% at 1d6, ~2.7% at 2d6, ~37% at 3d6, 84% at 4d6 – exposure to catching on fire mechanically goes from being guaranteed death, certainly death, unlikely death, and i’m an action hero.
Tier 4 status effects are Not Good. We're talking "you eat shit and die" levels of Not Good. The least nasty one gives you a -6 to all rolls and slowly inflicts skill damage until you die. Even at the highest levels, these effects should be rare. The most likely reason you would even see the Vaporized condition for most of the game would be if a high-tier creature inflicted a badass status effect on a low-tier one. I'm considering not giving easy access to anything beyond Tier 2 status effects - Tier 3 should be as bad as it gets without some kind of external assistance.
This would still mean that a Tier 4 creature inflicting the Paralyzed condition on Tier 2 or lower creatures would just outright fucking kill them, but that's not a fight that poor bastard had much of a chance in to begin with.
I fully admit that the statuses are pretty messy. There's an argument to be made for making some of the Tier 2 statuses into Tier 1 instead and just adding something more intermediary. Singed and Chilled are really specific, for starters. It's also a bit unclear as to which status effects can be saved against and which require items or other forms of healing. Hmmm.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

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The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:50 pm
In my defense, I do have a bunch of probabilities written out at the very end of the PDF, for both one-off rolls as well as rolls over a sustained period.
Thanks, these were helpful to look over.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:50 pm
An important part of the game is that I do want things to be dramatically different as you progress from Tier 1 to Tier 4. One thing I like about xd6 is is that it quickly scales up on the lower end while raising the overall ceiling of numbers to a not-insane level.
I hear you, and that does sound exciting. If you need some playtesters for a few hours I'm happy to volunteer if schedules align. Whats the expected tone, it comes off a bit zany and perhaps that matches my recollection of the anime from many years ago. You have lots of material here, what is left unfinished, looks like character creation and classes? I'm curious what your next steps are.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Thank you, it's nice to get as many people together as possible to test all this crazy shit. My tone is mostly light-hearted, with a few concessions made for logic's sake. I actually played a few hours of Pokemon Arceus last weekend (what a lazy, cheap game...) and their constant insistence that 'hey, Pokemon can actually fucking kill you" is something I like. I like to emulate the levels of cartoonish violence that pokemon are capable of, which necessitates that humans can handle it. Ash got incinerated by his Charizard all the time and walked it off. Is it silly? Yes. But it can get serious, too.

As for how much I have left, I color-coded the table of contents by how "complete" the content is. I even have a to-do list from... June 30, 2020. Looks like I wanted to finish writing up the equipment/item sections, flesh out the property rules for owning a restaurant or museum or gym or whatever, then start defining struggle attacks and moves, then go back and do another pass over the crafting system once I have a more solid idea of what to expect at which levels of play. At that point, I'd just need to set up a framework for abilities & capabilities to have the skeleton of the game complete.
THEN after that I would finally start working on character classes & creation. Probably at the same time. Then after that it's a matter of wrapping things up, coming up with some examples of playing/running the game, then the insurmountable task of creating the Pokedex begins.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Frost751 »

I'm not sure if anyone is still reading this site, but it's worth a shot. I'm currently a GM for PTA3, and my Party wishes to participate in Contests. I've read everything, but I still have some issues. The most important issue is how to award points during the Introduction stage, because it says I should award flat values, but the Coordinator Features mention things like rerolling dice during the introduction.
Last edited by Frost751 on Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Foxwarrior »

Oh no, ChatGPT has started invading the forums... This is the beginning of the end!
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

I... uh... thanks, AI robot? I'd rather get sold dick pills, I think. The encouragement is very weird.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Thaluikhain »

Foxwarrior wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:41 pm
Oh no, ChatGPT has started invading the forums... This is the beginning of the end!
How do you know that some other members aren't secretly robots?

*looks around suspiciously*
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

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Well, none of them talk like ChatGPT, they're other types of robot if they're robots
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

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So do chatbots edit their posts?
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Sigil »

I think this is a real question about a different game, Pokemon Tabletop Adventures 3, and y'all are just being mean.

Image
Image

I don't have any familiarity with this game, but if you're still looking at this I'd assume there was a rule change in the text at some point in editing and they forgot to correct this. I'd probably resolve this by either letting the coordinator make some sort of roll to add points during the introductory stage, or by using dice rolls to award points during the intro stage instead of fixed values.

That said, this isn't actually a PTA3 thread.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

I would hope that someone isn't making an account here just to ask questions in the wrong thread...
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Foxwarrior »

deaddmwalking wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:18 pm
So do chatbots edit their posts?
The beautiful thing about ChatGPT is that its messages are so eloquent-sounding that actual people are seduced into posting its messages into their conversations. The cult of the machine begins...
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Koumei »

Foxwarrior wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:35 am
The cult of the machine begins...
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Notice how no one talks about the strength of the flesh! Curious.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Foxwarrior »

Have you ever seen a 70 year old car? More prosthetics than a pirate!
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by deaddmwalking »

I lost a boxing match to a pirate. He got me with his right hook.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:21 am
Notice how no one talks about the strength of the flesh! Curious.
Some do.
Image
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by deaddmwalking »

I would find his argument more compelling if he wasn't beheaded by a steel blade.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Thaluikhain »

Also, he makes references to a rather more famous role he played (or at least voiced) in a trilogy of films where he is kept alive by a machine suit as his flesh isn't strong enough.
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by Foxwarrior »

Is it really fair to compare a steel machine that's specifically designed for a purpose, to a flesh being that's just generically optimized for efficient living
Tyranids are where it's at
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Re: Arguing about Pokemon Tabletop Evolution (WIP)

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Hah, I finally got around to making a website for this. I took all the stuff I wrote on Google Docs and slapped it onto a domain with mild amounts of HTML to make things legible. It's been quite fun to review everything and semi-tidy it for public use, and I hope that going public will push me to work on it more. I'll need to go through this thread again sometime soon to recall the feedback I got, because getting it from people I know IRL is like pulling teeth - the curse of being the only TTRPG player I know who enjoys crunch and mechanical analysis. And also Pokemon.
Most people who want to expend energy arguing about color-coded pocket monsters tend to expend it on the finer mechanical details that only matter in a video game. If only people argued about Pokemon habitats and behavior as fervently...

Anyway, I was playing some romhacks for "research purposes", which got me re-inspired to work on this since the new stuff is pretty funny. Power creep is creeping harder than ever, and lots of Ye Olde Shitmons came back with shiny new forms to draw in old fans. It turns out that I am not immune to "this monkey got so mad it died and turned into Akuma from Street Fighter". How exciting.
I need to work on some of the player-oriented stuff, like classes, trainer progression, XP, and high-level adventure/downtime activities, but I think most other stuff is in a good place to start testing - at least in a "you wake up and you're a Pokemon, how do you spend today?" kind of way, to see what gameplay features explode upon player contact. I kind of assume all the 'human trainer' stuff will fall into place once 80-90% of the Pokemon-adjacent stuff is taken care of.

After all, why do you do things in a Pokemon game? To get pokemon and have fun with them, naturally. This is the answer to 99% of questions that can be posed during the design process.

"Why can players have their PCs go get a job?" To get money and feed their pokemon, or buy new items to trick out their pokemon, or acquire items to help them search out new pokemon, or to roleplay working with their pokemon while cooking food in the back kitchen. You know, slice of life stuff that feed back into the adventuring.
"Why are there all these weird abilities like running on air and turning yourself into lightning?" Because that's the logical conclusion of the weirdo video game powers that these bizarre creatures have (and this is a semi-anime inspired game since Pokemon fans tend to be giant weebs) - so if a Machop can run up walls and karate chop a sentient tree in the neck, PCs should be able to keep up in a limited fashion.
"Why are there these fiddly bits on the Pokemon's entry like Diet and Behavior? Why waste time making up a travelling minigame?" This is a Pokemon game. Wandering from place to place and seeing weird monsters is the POINT, and everything else is window dressing to achieve that. With LITERALLY 1000+ monsters at your disposal, having quick references for things like 'this is how this creature eats and responds to stimuli in its natural habitat, which are X and Y areas" is relevant. Seeing how these creatures interact with each other, their surroundings, and the player's actions are the main draw of any Pokemon media, IMO. People would go NUTS if Pokemon actually did stuff in the video game overworld. People WANT to see a Tinkaton grab a nearby boulder and smack it with its club so hard that it DROPS BIRDS FROM THE SKY. That shit sounds COOL.
"Why do Pokemon have social and knowledge skills?" Well, that's just because I think humans and pokemon should use the same rules at every possible, logical opportunity. Sure, my Jigglypuff can't actually talk to me, but look at that thing and tell me it's got Untrained Charm. I dare you. Tell me that Mr Mime can't hold down a job at your local library. I'll wait.

That was a fun bit of rambling. I would post a link to my site, but I still don't have an introductory page explaining what the fuck any of this actually is or where to start.
I should do that!
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