"In my game the Mental Attributes are..."

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Just having a bit of fun, don't take this too seriously.

[deaddmwalking]

Heh. You and Koumei with the Disgaea!

Yeah, I'm more old-school than that, but the funny thing about using JRPGS with mathematically solid design, fun interaction between character roles, and relative balance between classes (if they have any) or even equipment based class abilities like in FF7 and that pop-singer sequel one I can't recall but you class is pretty much "whichever costume the performer wears" is that it's not built on assumptions but rather "what does it do?" consideration.

Is it so hard to believe that your insanely long run on sentence was hard to follow?

No, I'm lost too.

Disagea is a series of games, so it appears to me that JonSetanta indicates he likes older games, including Final Fantasy 7. I'm not familiar with the classes in FF7, so I took it as an observation that classes in that game are done well. As far as what it COULD mean when a class is built on 'what does it do' versus 'assumptions', I took that to mean specific ACTIONS that the class can take, rather than thematic elements that get attached to the class.

For example, when designing a bard, it's easy to say 'they should play instruments' so giving them a bonus to perform checks might seem like a reasonable ability. But IN GAME, it doesn't actually DO ANYTHING. So saying 'a bard can put people in a trance with a musical performance' would represent designing an ability around a function rather than a flavor. But there's nothing in the statement that PROVES my understanding is correct. In any case, even if it was commentary on examples of abilities that perform well, it didn't rise to the level of proposing a type of mechanic that could accomplish the same in a table top RPG.

[JonSetanta]

Deaddm, nailed it. Thank you.

I'll explain my lack of readability thusly; I'm a kinetic/visual thinker.
Literally, I don't have internal monologues, I don't understand HOW anyone can think in words to themselves and anticipate what someone else is expecting to read or hear.
I think in images, which then have to be painfully dragged out into sentences, paragraphs, and essays.
This is great for a performing artist, illustrator, musician, or any kind of thing that doesn't involve a language-based back and forth.

Here, online, where we only have words, I'm out of my element.
I try writing complex concepts and people say "word salad".
I write brief replies and people say "that comment doesn't contain enough information".

As far as proposing genuine RPG mechanics, yes, I have a DOC file on my laptop where day by day I develop some Tome-standard ideas as by Kaelik's suggestion.
I'll post a new thread with all of it by the end of the month, edited for clarity, and bare-bone minimum idealism, in favor of usable content even if it doesn't go over well.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

FF7 is one of the few Final Fantasies I haven't played, but doesn't that utilize the Materia system instead of classes? Isn't the whole point that you can turn anyone into anything?

[Chamomile]

Different characters have different base stats, which lends them more towards certain specializations, but there's no hard-coded classes. You can load up Aeris with HP-up and make her a mediocre tank if you want, but you could've put the same materia on Barret for much better effect.

[JonSetanta]

FF7 is about 20-30% classless, since weapon/armor/support item are still limited by character. You have about a dozen different attack types and Limit Breaks to keep in mind, but later in the game as you collect most of not all Materia you can apply combinations like "All + Seal" on Cloud's sword and he no only slashes every enemy per encounter per turn, but petrifies, silences or even just applies "death" depending on the RNG and what they're immune to.

Or you could just slap on some Quadra Magic + Demi (halves HP) or a summon like Knights of the Round, if you enjoy ten minutes per turn of oddly armored warriors slicing at your foe.

So, yes, stats and engrained character abilities really don't matter in 7, it's all about Materia choices.
But even then, there are far less "slots" to place the items compared to Christmas Tree D&D PCs. The more you give a character, the higher their mana pool and lower the HP, so they essentially become glass cannons if you equip all summon and spell Materia, unlike in D&D where tying on a Headband of Intellect doesn't decrease your HP maximum and STR score, nor does a Girdle of X Giant Strength make you dumber.

Now, as for Chrono Trigger, there is practically no deviation from the character ability path. You just gain levels and customize which 3-4 items they wear, but with this 5e-like simplicity comes something extra: team spells/attacks.
Every three-member team combination has the own combined power, increasing damage and adding status effects.
So party composition counts, yet there are so few immunities and resistances to whatever damage typing you use that anyone can pretty much take out anything without worry.

[Rejakor]

in my game mental attributes are

vim
rhetoric
cheerfulness
rhythm
chutzpah
and a certain je ne sais quoi

[JonSetanta]

in my game mental attributes are

vim
rhetoric
cheerfulness
rhythm
chutzpah
and a certain je ne sais quoi

Reminiscent of Frank's TNE concepts.

[Rejakor]

Vim's an oldie but a goodie, stolen from everywhere. Chutzpah and a certain je ne sais quois i've seen used a few places. Dunno where they come from originally as rpg attribute concepts.

Haven't seen Rhetoric, Cheerfulness, or Rhythm used as core stats though before. I like'em because you can see how to use them in games, with a bit of creativity, but they are grounded enough in existing concepts for most people to be able to grok them. Cheerfulness and Rhetoric are basically just two sides of the Charisma coin, but have different enough uses and better fluff that they'll get mileage. Rhythm is mostly dex. It's balance, timing, surprise, picking locks, and some sense motive style stuff, but there's a wildcard to it. You could argue it for use in just about anything, but because it's so out there, only some of those uses will actually fly. If it was like 'deftness' or something people would just shove it wherever, but 'rhythm' is a bit more abstruse.

[JonSetanta]

For the last week I've been reading other forum discussions and analyzing non-D&D games that do mental stats better, and decided that not only do I want to revamp my heartbreaker to be classless, but statless as well, with the d20 equivalent of "a 14 in every stat" to start, then certain selected Traits to boost those numbers in select trope-specific groups of bonuses to a total of +4 at level 1.

The main groups are:
Physical
Mental

The specialized subtypes of each are:
Attack
Defense
Control
(With a rock/paper/scissors interaction)

So that's 6 right there.

A Mental "Attack" might be something like "Intelligence", a Mental Defense might be "Empathy", and a Mental Control might be something socially manipulative like Deceit or Innuendo.

For each Feat (the Warrior powers) a character gets +5 Health and for each Spell (Mage power) +5 something else.
I was originally working with Mana but recently decided I don't want that old JRPG trope of a Mage chugging potions mid battle just because they ran out, so it's going to be called Focus or Integrity, like a kind of mental healthbar that can be drained by certain attacks to cause unconsciousness or spent to reroll Mental skill checks/defenses.


I've noted the encounter minigame types as Combat/Social/Stealth, and there will be multiple methods for both Physical and Mental powers, but also countermeasures.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Point for clarifying...

in my game mental attributes are

vim
rhetoric
cheerfulness
rhythm
chutzpah
and a certain je ne sais quoi

..you must be fucking joking right?

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Probably? Seems like an obvious joke to me. I mean, there's French, for god's sake.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

French AND Yiddish.

[nockermensch]

Point for clarifying...

in my game mental attributes are

vim
rhetoric
cheerfulness
rhythm
chutzpah
and a certain je ne sais quoi

..you must be fucking joking right?

Well I really hope he's being serious.

Of course, the physical attributes are

aim
upper body strength
density
rhythm (again)
twitchiness
anal circumference

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

I think you could roll Rhythm, Twitchiness, and Anal Circumference into the same stat.

[Pedantic]

I think you could roll Rhythm, Twitchiness, and Anal Circumference into the same stat.

Either "Clenching" or "Pulsation".

[JonSetanta]

"Beefswelling" needs to be a stat

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

I think you could roll Rhythm, Twitchiness, and Anal Circumference into the same stat.

Either "Clenching" or "Pulsation".

Oh, perfect. 'Anal Pulsation' it is!

[Zaranthan]

Alright, that's enough internet for today. I'm going to go talk to my dice, because that's less insane than whatever the fuck is happening in here.

Also, I'm renaming Sanity to Childlike Wonder.

[JonSetanta]

Also, I'm renaming Sanity to Childlike Wonder.

I was thinking "Holiday Spirit", a renewable yet fickle resource.