Minion power transfer I guess? NO PHONELOBSTER

[JigokuBosatsu]

I wasn't even sure what to call this concept. There has to be a word or phrase that I just can't recall. I was reading a novel and thought about a trope where a godlike entity (usually evil) gives power to group of chosen lieutenants who become "demigods" and those are in turn able to create their own lieutenants. Can be voluntary or conscription and there's often bindings or transformations. Examples I thought of so far are spoilered since an adaptation of one of them is currently running on TV:

Black Company: Evil overlord The Dominator "Takes" wizards into his service. These Taken are created by enduring some sort of sorcerous torture ritual. The original Taken are themselves able to Take more wizards- I was never clear on whether there can only be 13 Taken at a time or the second tier Taken are only created to replace the originals when they meet final death. The process doesn't seem to bind the Taken to the Dominator necessarily (power over sorcerors is enforced with Truename) but the transformation does grant some superhuman abilities alongside a magic power increase. This is handled by a template in the D20.

Dark Souls: Four entities have "Lord Souls" that make them gods. Gywn gives two chunks of his soul to a dragon and some Nazgul human kings, with enough left over to sacrifice himself and restart the flame of creation. Nito the Gravelord does fuck-all with his soul. The Witch of Izalith uses her lord soul to try to do the flame of creation thing but fails. Her daughters fill the lieutenant role but it's unclear how much it powers them up. Finally, the Dark Soul fragments to fill the hearts of all humans. Larger chunks spin off to create some magical princesses. Overall, none of these methods seem to involve any sort of control from the top down.

Wheel of Time: The Forsaken are powerful individuals from an ancient age who sold themselves into service to the Dark One, an evil god. Their connection to him gives them a very powerful and direct form of dark magic in addition to whatever magic they already had. Before this they were pretty awful people but the use of dark magic and time spent in skulduggery and violence have only worsened this. It is unclear how much of a physical change there is but their eyes eventually turn solid black. The Dark One has quite a bit of hands-on control over his lieutenants, including deciding whether they will get reincarnated after death. Lastly, one of the Forsaken creates monster races of varying sapience so the dark power can be transmitted to some degree.

Sufficiently Advanced Magic: The primary goddess has lieutenants that are comparable to archangels. In addition to whatever hosts they command, some of these lieutenants are able to create fragments of themselves, which are lesser avatars. In addition, the lieutenants are able to create magical bonds on mortals. These bonds resemble the rune marks that all magic-users have, but have their own quirks and grant greater powers. The lieutenants can use these bonds to affect the marked in various ways. Later books get into the different magic and mythology in other parts of the same world, and there are some other examples of a god/demigod blessing lieutenants with powers and artifact weapons.

Now, please forgive me if I get some details vague or wrong. I mainly wanted to summarize these different concepts. These are the examples I came up with off the top of my head but I'm sure there are many others. D&D warlocks? Star Wars apprenticing? Vampire elders vamping their henchmen? Assuming I have articulated this idea somewhat intelligibly, what further examples in RPGs or media do this concept well? I don't know what, if anything I'll be doing with this idea. I do think it might have legs as a method to create more interesting minibosses for a campaign, or as an in-universe way to get a group of accomplished PCs into an epic tier.

[Foxwarrior]

If you don't require the lieutenants to be able to deputize more people, then I think this trope gets plenty of use in old fashioned fiction on the good side, that's what a Chosen Hero is after all.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Is the plan to make a rule about lieutenant availability/power?

Even a GMing adventure building guideline about it?

Do you have any such things already that you work with or will this inexplicably only be for "power transfer" situations?

If you did, how, or even why, would "minion power transfer" defy or modify the existing rules or guidelines about normal lieutenant availability or power?

Is this just obsessive make work?

Are you just senselessly listing things in a category for no purpose?

[Whatever Jr.]

Frank once proposed a Necromancer had a pool of essence that you had to invest in undead minions to animate them. Then, as the minions are killed (or if you don't animate any), you get that essence back and have stronger curse blasts or whatever.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Is the plan to make a rule about lieutenant availability/power?

Even a GMing adventure building guideline about it?

Do you have any such things already that you work with or will this inexplicably only be for "power transfer" situations?

If you did, how, or even why, would "minion power transfer" defy or modify the existing rules or guidelines about normal lieutenant availability or power?

Is this just obsessive make work?

Are you just senselessly listing things in a category for no purpose?

Oh, let's not get too saucy so early in the thread. I think he's just spitballing discussion topics right now. How many games utilize "lieutenant availability/power" in the context you're describing, anyway?
Anyway, I think the plan is to make a multilevel marketing scheme, but for power levels. The Dark Lord gives some power out to two Dark Dukes, who each give their power to two Dark Lieutenants, who each give their power to two Dark Captains, and somehow recruiting new blood into this scheme just results in more overall power for the Dark Lord.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Oh, let's not get too saucy so early in the thread. I think he's just spitballing discussion topics right now. How many games utilize "lieutenant availability/power" in the context you're describing, anyway?

That's the point. This topic goes absolutely nowhere unless it interacts with some sort of encounter/adventure design guideline the 3.x CR system only seemingly a lot more intricate.

If it isn't a plan by which ultimately your final boss selection is game mechanically meaningfully altering your mini-boss allocations it is unremarkable and absolutely non-binding fluff. If it isn't doing noticeably more than just "The thematic template exists, use it or not as you please" it is a non-event.

Necromancer bosses have undead sub bosses. Demonologist bosses have demon sub bosses. Except when they don't. Because making that a hard rule seems dumb. No other bosses have those sorts of sub bosses. Except when they do. Because making that a hard rule also seems dumb.

If you aren't allocating numbers or guidelines to that your discussion is over in a short paragraph of short sentences and putting in an extra paragraph of wank on every piece of fiction you can warp to barely just fit this narrative is a pointless diversion.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Is the plan to make a rule about lieutenant availability/power?

I don't know what, if anything I'll be doing with this idea.

There ya go. I am just spitballing for the purpose of discussion. Hey, I even added an "improving fighters" quip for the hell of it.

Is this just obsessive make work?

Are you just senselessly listing things in a category for no purpose?

PL, your ramblings lack context and specific examples, and also are complaining about things you yourself are doing. I don't mind criticism but you're being actively unhelpful. Please leave the thread.

Anyway, the rest of yas...

TAA has the right idea- a fantasy regular evil pyramid scheme. If you only have a few characters involved having a rule for this is probably unnecessary. Big evil organization? The complexity would give it more potential of having things to do and parts to interact with. After ruminating on it for a bit, I see that for books and such this idea is strongest where it helps to keep things consistent. As far as gaming goes I think a well-defined minion power transfer mechanic would fit best in a story game, like the ones where you do collaborative worldbuilding and shepherd a kingdom down through the generations.

[merxa]

PL, your ramblings lack context and specific examples, and also are complaining about things you yourself are doing. I don't mind criticism but you're being actively unhelpful. Please leave the thread.

... but PL is largely correct here. It's hard to even consider what you have here as an idea, it's mostly pointing to other ideas and asking if there is some ttrpg idea to be had here. You need some sort of rules scaffolding to bring this forward, or limits on what you are discussing, otherwise this can go anywhere. Maybe you can spend some time just describing your idea in a given game system without referencing other IPs?

As an aside, asking people to leave threads or starting threads an explicitly noting who is not allowed is making what is already a ghost town into a near solipsism. Let's all try to raise the bar here on our ability to be criticized and contradicted, otherwise what's the point?

TAA has the right idea- a fantasy regular evil pyramid scheme. If you only have a few characters involved having a rule for this is probably unnecessary. Big evil organization? The complexity would give it more potential of having things to do and parts to interact with. After ruminating on it for a bit, I see that for books and such this idea is strongest where it helps to keep things consistent. As far as gaming goes I think a well-defined minion power transfer mechanic would fit best in a story game, like the ones where you do collaborative worldbuilding and shepherd a kingdom down through the generations.

So the Alexandrian has a nice article that mentions a conspyramid, it'll hotlink of the example pyramid:



This is in the context of an urban crawl, and tends to cross section into the alexandrian's personal interest in cabals and mysteries. Still, the conspyramid is a solid tool for anyone interested in building ttrpg experiences. I guess, beyond the structure this provides, what else are you seeking? A mechanical impact?

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

If you aren't allocating numbers or guidelines to that your discussion is over in a short paragraph of short sentences and putting in an extra paragraph of wank on every piece of fiction you can warp to barely just fit this narrative is a pointless diversion.

I swear, you consistently write multiple paragraphs about how things people are trying to talk about are "pointless diversions". Poor Jigoku can't even try and get the ball rolling before you come in and say that actually, even thinking about inertia is stupid so why is anyone bothering rolling balls around? No need to blow your load so early into the thread, you can wait a few posts or something, especially if you come in with good points.
Well, I should lay off if he can't respond (temporarily, hopefully).

That's the point. This topic goes absolutely nowhere unless it interacts with some sort of encounter/adventure design guideline the 3.x CR system only seemingly a lot more intricate.

That being said, this is one of those points I was talking about. If this is basically codifying an evil pyramid scheme, then something like a CR system is going to be necessary because you need to be able to accurately gauge power in order to distribute it properly. I don't think just basing it off of levels is going to be enough. For example, take a look at that vampire pyramid that merxa posted. Notice that the Blood Cult has a ton of direct influence over multiple levels of the pyramid, whereas the Vampire Elders only seem to really interact with the Blood Cult. Based on the numbers and influence they have, are they effectively a higher potential CR than the Elders if they can pull all those resources together at once? Do they know that in-universe and this pyramid is actually ripe for some restructuring to keep the game interesting? How does all of this change within a faction where everyone is changing rank and making new allies and enemies among one another?

[JigokuBosatsu]

You need some sort of rules scaffolding to bring this forward, or limits on what you are discussing, otherwise this can go anywhere.

I was pretty explicit about this just being a fledgling idea, and I'm fine with it going anywhere. PL goes nowhere. That's not worth any of our time.

As an aside, asking people to leave threads or starting threads an explicitly noting who is not allowed is making what is already a ghost town into a near solipsism. Let's all try to raise the bar here on our ability to be criticized and contradicted, otherwise what's the point?

The no-Homering is something that has filled a real need. Seems like that usually happens after threads drag on way too long and I don't feel like wasting my time in that way. I'm not afraid to be criticized or contradicted or outright insulted. That's how it works here. How much of a ghost town is it if I don't post it all because I know people are going to both threadshit and justify the threadshitting? Versus trying to cut out time-wasting comments?

So the Alexandrian has a nice article that mentions a conspyramid, it'll hotlink of the example pyramid:

This is in the context of an urban crawl, and tends to cross section into the alexandrian's personal interest in cabals and mysteries. Still, the conspyramid is a solid tool for anyone interested in building ttrpg experiences. I guess, beyond the structure this provides, what else are you seeking? A mechanical impact?

Thanks, this is the sort of thing I was looking for. I'll read that blog. The more I think about it I was initially thinking more about the connection and the magic versus the structure it implies. There's definitely more to do with the latter. As I said earlier, my thought now is that the concept would make more sense as part of a worldbuilding story game, and maybe in a crunchier TTRPG if that had a decent kingdom building aspect. I don't think it would need to be too granular- yeah, if the overlord churns out a lieutenant and two sergeants, you'd just stat them up if you needed to. No wanking necessary.

[Thaluikhain]

Ok, you mention vampires, but I thought I'd mention V:TM's generations thing, which IMHO, was a very good idea. In that it could be borrowed for WHFB's vampires where it worked, and I don't care about V:TM so it doesn't matter if it doesn't work there.

Anyway, Neferata is the first (or one of the first) true vampires, those she turns rather than gives the magic vampire potion to are inherently weaker 2nd gen vampires, their descendants weaker than those and so on until you get some that can only turn a small amount of people (for some reason), but in theory a random Necromancer could rediscover the original magic potion and make themselves a new first gen vampire.

Another sorta example, I guess, is the God-Emperor of Mankind in 40k, who uses technosorcery to create 20 Primarchs, lesser versions of Himself, and then their genetic material to make Astartes.

[angelfromanotherpin]

There are some magic systems (GURPS, Ars Magica) that encourage this sort of thing. A magician wants other magicians to help them perform better ritual magic and artificing, so teaching more magicians empowers both your students and yourself. The older magicians stay on top by having a head start and potentially also by withholding key information from their students to cap their progression.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Good points all. Thought about it some more and I think I have a couple of mechanic ideas in the trunk that could make this sort of thing go. I'll do some homework and write something up, have my 8yo read it to make sure it isn't just frothing lunacy, and report back.

As an aside, one thing I noticed about most of my examples is that they're postapocalyptic, usually with a ton of time having passed. I don't think there's anything that meaningful to it- just an easy narrative tool to put the head of the conspiracy at a remove from the actions of the story and give the poor author/MC some breathing room.

[Dogbert]

For it to be a pyramid scheme, the lower levels need to produce something for the higher levels to leech off. Something like "each kill done by MINION sends expees to the upper levels." While this sounds interesting in paper, in the practice this only encourages players to go Morrowind Cheat and slit the BBEG throat within the first 5 minutes of game before they become unmanageable.

Regarding which games empower minions? Well, Clerics and Paladins have been around since forever, and these miracle men go around creating converts to feed their deity.

[phlapjackage]

Regarding which games empower minions? Well, Clerics and Paladins have been around since forever, and these miracle men go around creating converts to feed their deity.

This is the direction my mind took when reading the initial post about powerful beings bestowing abilities on underlings. Dark Sun does it more explicitly I guess with the dragon kings.

[Thaluikhain]

Ok, weird idea, but if I squint my brain a bit this looks like a turn based strategy game focused on building cities. You have your big important capital city, and then you create a much smaller colony which needs the capital's support, but in turn provides various resources. The colony gets bigger and eventually self-sufficient and creates colonies of its own, but the capital probably is still more important.

Not sure how to translate that into an RPG, but might be a useful way of looking at it. Or not.

[Zaranthan]

It does sound a lot like a 4X game, though I've never thought of my civ/nation/race/whatever as actually being the capitol. The way I play, the capitol is one of my strongest possessions, but the colonies are the POINT.

As for the Morrowind Shortcut, there's nothing saying the BBEG is anywhere near stabbable on day 1. Not only should they have a head start on the PCs, but the players probably shouldn't even know who they are yet. You're interacting with the Szebeli Clan, the Blood Cult should be invisible until you start finding clues and interrogating leaders.