Integrating Tome of Battle with the Tome Series

[...You Lost Me]

Speaking of which, the community favorites still list articles with their class balance (Spiritual Weapon still comes up as Rogue) instead of the abstract name.

[Kaelik]

So my definition of tome should be "anything of wizard-level balance point"?

No, your definition of Tome should either be:

1) The Actual Tomes only, No Items, Final Destination.

Or

2) Anything made with the intent of being used in Tome games.

And it should under no circumstances be:

The Tomes, anything made by Kaelik for use in the Tomes where he labels it as [Tome of X] but not anything made by Kaelik for the express purpose of use in Tome games, but where he forgets to put in the thread title [Tome of X].

I mean, if your claim was that the other Leadership feats count as Tome because they were written by Frank Trollman, that would be dumb, but at least sensibly dumb.

But if you count the StormLord you fucking have to count Imakei's skill feats that were always intended for inclusion in Tome games (seeing as they exist for the express purpose of bringing skill user feats up to the level of Races of War Combat feats) and have been included in the Tome pdf.

[...You Lost Me]

My statement was against "cohorts are kosher in the tomes", so the thing I am arguing with is features that are included in or are meant to be included in (in the case of there being a written sourcebook) tome books. If you write the Storm Lord to be included in Tome of Virtue, and that makes plenty of sense, then yes that's a reliable class. But since you gave it the name of "Tome of Mary Sues", then we all know you're just doing that because it's kind of funny and you don't actually think that it should be in any possible creation of Virtue/Trees/Tiamat.

So I'm not counting your Storm Lord, and I didn't count Iameki's skill feats. This is not "homebrew from the tomes, related to the tomes". This is "stuff that could be / is in the damn books called the tomes". That definition bends at edges, like what the fuck is done with 400 favored soul classes, but no edge cases came up.

[Kaelik]

My statement was against "cohorts are kosher in the tomes", so the thing I am arguing with is features that are included in or are meant to be included in (in the case of there being a written sourcebook) tome books. If you write the Storm Lord to be included in Tome of Virtue, and that makes plenty of sense, then yes that's a reliable class. But since you gave it the name of "Tome of Mary Sues", then we all know you're just doing that because it's kind of funny and you don't actually think that it should be in any possible creation of Virtue/Trees/Tiamat.

So I'm not counting your Storm Lord, and I didn't count Iameki's skill feats. This is not "homebrew from the tomes, related to the tomes". This is "stuff that could be / is in the damn books called the tomes". That definition bends at edges, like what the fuck is done with 400 favored soul classes, but no edge cases came up.

No, I mean, that is fucking dumb. Like, the dumbest thing ever.

Like, if I had remembered the names of the unwritten books when I wrote the StormLord it would be included, but because I didn't remember their names and just wrote whatever therefore it is not.

That is literally the dumbest possible interpretation that could ever exist of what is or is not the Tomes.

[...You Lost Me]

Wow, you didn't remember? Well, DAMN. My apologies for assuming that people who have been on this board for years and can recall and reliably reference 100 spells at any given time wouldn't forget three common nouns.

I am so dumb for assuming basic human memory capacity and making my judgments off that. What on earth was I thinking, assuming Kaelik was actually smart and could put 5 seconds of thought into his work.

[Kaelik]

1) Welcome newbie, the names Tome of Virtue, Tome of Trees, and Tome of Tiamat weren't always common knowledge. There was a point where we legitimately did not even know those names. Even after we did, it was still extremely clear that none of them would ever exist, so we sure didn't bother labeling them under the title of the book it would have been in if they existed.

2) How the fuck was I supposed to know that anyone would ever be so stupid as to think that this:

StormLord
StormLord [Tome of X]

The X there, is more important than the actual content of the class or my obvious intention when making it?

How was I supposed to know that someone was so fucking dumb?

I mean, here is the Firemage.

That's not even in a post on it's own, much less a thread. Are you telling me that something like that is "not Tome" regardless of the intent of the creator, the complete consensus of everyone ever, and the actual mechanics just because it's not in a thread titled [Tome of X]?

Because that's really fucking dumb. Like, super dumb.

[...You Lost Me]

1) Well-done. As a newbie, I don't think I've ever forgotten those three very common nouns that are mentioned consistently on the last three pages of posts on IMOI.

2) The Fire Mage, I agree on. That's a weird edge case and there's no good way around it. But, fuck, if we're allowed to drop Iameki's feat in the pile of things that work, then I can just pull a bunch of [Leadership] feats in the vein of Tyrant out of my ass and say "oh well look at all those feats without cohorts POINT PROVEN" as long as they're high-balance because it totally works with tome like the fire mage.

So are you telling me that something, despite not being in any way labeled in relation to the argued topic, should totally be included in that label because it's for games of the same balance point?

Because that's really fucking dumb. Like, super dumb. The Dread Necromancer is not in Oriental Adventures, just like the Shugenja is not in Dragonlance.

[Whipstitch]

oh well look at all those feats without cohorts POINT PROVEN

Your point isn't proven because your argument is non sequitur. You seem to be arguing that the existence of cohort free [Leadership] feats casts doubt on the legitimacy of [Leadership] feats which do provide cohorts but you have not provided any compelling reason as to why that would be the case.

[Kaelik]

1) Well-done. As a newbie, I don't think I've ever forgotten those three very common nouns that are mentioned consistently on the last three pages of posts on IMOI.

Do the last three pages of posts include all the community material from 2007? No? Oh, you are an idiot.

2) The Fire Mage, I agree on. That's a weird edge case and there's no good way around it.

No, it's exactly like everything else made in 2007 in that it did not feature a label indicating it belonged in a book that would never exist.

But, fuck, if we're allowed to drop Iameki's feat in the pile of things that work, then I can just pull a bunch of [Leadership] feats in the vein of Tyrant out of my ass and say "oh well look at all those feats without cohorts POINT PROVEN" as long as they're high-balance because it totally works with tome like the fire mage.

You fucking idiot. You can do that right now. Your system is that anything with a Tome label automatically becomes tome material.

You can do that right now under your system.

Imakei's feats were made specifically for inclusion in the Tomes, he said they were made for inclusion in the Tomes, and they were fucking included in the goddam Tomes. What the fuck more do you want for something to count for you you fucking retard?

So are you telling me that something, despite not being in any way labeled in relation to the argued topic, should totally be included in that label because it's for games of the same balance point?

It had all the label it needed. It was a community material made on TGD making feats that were explicitly designed as the skill feat version of Races of War Feats. It is better labeled as a part of the Tomes than Frank's Leadership feats, because unlike Frank's posts it was actually included in an actual Tome document.

Because that's really fucking dumb. Like, super dumb. The Dread Necromancer is not in Oriental Adventures, just like the Shugenja is not in Dragonlance.

Nothing is or ever will be in the Tome of Virtue, because it doesn't exist and never will.

[...You Lost Me]

Do the last three pages of posts include all the community material from 2007? No? Oh, you are an idiot.

Do the last three pages constitute material from over the course of a year in which you've probably visited the page and read those classes some hundred times? Yes? And you still didn't remember the words "trees", "virtue", or the name "Tiamat" when you wrot entire base class? You're an idiot.

You fucking idiot. You can do that right now. Your system is that anything with a Tome label automatically becomes tome material.

You can do that right now under your system.

Imakei's feats were made specifically for inclusion in the Tomes, he said they were made for inclusion in the Tomes, and they were fucking included in the goddam Tomes. What the fuck more do you want for something to count for you you fucking retard?

My god, you are stupid.

So, once someone responds to that thread and says "This looks pretty balanced" and people don't voice multiple complaints about fact that every feat is the same or that they're unbalanced or whatever the fuck, then when I scroll through TGD search and dnd wiki and find those feats because I'm trying to find a set of leadership feats including/not including cohorts, I will look at that page and say "Oh hey it's supposed to be tome of trees, I wonder if Kaelik made decent feats or if he's being a stupid fuck."

And then, if there are actual comments on the page, and there aren't several calling you fucking dumb, and if my Bullshit Detector doesn't go off, THEN I would totally include those. But your ad absurdum dick waving actually wouldn't manage to get that, because you think that I believe anyone labeling any thread with anything related to the words "tome" totally brings them into tome, despite me explicitly saying otherwise. I can only assume you are very slow and need help, so read my posts again. Two or three times.

It had all the label it needed. It was a community material made on TGD making feats that were explicitly designed as the skill feat version of Races of War Feats. It is better labeled as a part of the Tomes than Frank's Leadership feats, because unlike Frank's posts it was actually included in an actual Tome document.

So it wasn't on TGD when I searched at all and doesn't appear to have any associated discussion or reference from any sourcebook. It's less valid than these for a tome game because not only did I have to look it up on a separate website, I also had to figure out who the hell the author was and whether or not he was like sigma666 because all I know about him is he wrote an OK paladin this one time.

Nothing is or ever will be in the Tome of Virtue, because it doesn't exist and never will.

All right, I give. You are arguing for "If there's no plan for it being published, nothing counts as being a part of it." and are using that as a rationale for "anything written to compete with wizards should count as tome".

[Kaelik]

Okay newbie dumb shit. This is like the third TGD, and he posted on the old one before your time. Just get over your self inflated rage at how stuff made for the Tomes is not really the Tomes because you don't know the guy who was making it, since he's not current enough.

PS, the Spherelock is Tome too.

[...You Lost Me]

Okay newbie dumb shit. This is like the third TGD, and he posted on the old one before your time.

I... what...

This completely blew my mind.

[Koumei]

Why? This seriously is the second or third "The Gaming Den", due to... server changes, I think?

The creators of the complete Tomes (Tome of Necromancy, Tome of Fiends, Dungeonomicon, Races of War), along with the Necromancer's Handbook before that, created these things back when K was still on the old WotC boards. A lot of stuff didn't exist then, and a lot of stuff theoretically sort of existed or would one day maybe exist. Hell, you can tell that they weren't all planned out together, just by the way Combat Feats differ from feats in older things, for instance.

And then more stuff started existing and getting added to it, sometimes with a "For Tome of X if that is made, which it won't" tag and sometimes not, and sometimes by Frank or K, and sometimes not.