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[Roy]

I'm calling BS right there. I'm looking at the MM right now, and except for the Greater Stone Golem & Tarrasque, nothing can hit me on a 14 or less. The Frost Giant Jarl comes close, but my initiative is better and he's 3 CR higher than I AND I can attack from longbow ranges.

You are committing the no items no spells no tactics auto attacks only FINAL DESTINATION fallacy. Make the creature use everything in its entry (in particular, buff spells and treasure). Because if you did that, you would get every level 20 hitting you on a 2 (after PAing for around 10-20) or just using spells. And this is again, stock mobs. No actual changes.

Perhaps we are lucky that most of our opponents are melee-based rather then casters. And humanonids like humans (with class levels). We are playing a rather story-centric campaign, with lots of war and skirmishes with an another empire.

Extremely. Your DM is playing super easy mode, where you get dragon hordes for beating the easiest enemies in the game. Glitterdust, got them all indeed.

Also, AC starts around offering 50 percent miss chance at level one, until level 20, where it offers only 0 percent (auto-miss on 1 still). Assuming you keep it all balanced that is, as the designers prolly meant (fat chance on this board, hehe). Ofcourse, it means you have to gain +1 AC every level (deflection, natural armor, armor enhancement,etc) just to keep it up. Fighters would hit 2.5 times an equal equipped fighter at level 20. (100 percent, 75 percent, 50, 25). In practice, I guess it never works out that way.

...What? You need a lot more than 1 a level. Like 2-3. Otherwise anything that does attack you in melee tears you apart.

At level 12 my AC is/was around 30 by the way. AC 44 is super. That is +16 AC above average for that level (as told in DMG anyway).

The DMG lies. 30 at level 12 is just high enough to not be PA bait (or at least not much).

Roy, I do not understand how you can scale attack +3 per level. You have BAB, you have enhancement bonus (but not per level) and strength (not per level). How do you get +3 per level? (I do not care about monsters, just humans and equipment, although monster's average follow these guidelines still, but I am sure there are exceptions that show beyond balance statistics).

Except that I am talking about monsters. Look at any creature type in the book and they're gaining 2 or 3 BAB per level worth of HD, not counting Strength, spells, items... Melee creature numbers end up close to 60 at level 20.

PC humanoids can get close to this amount with the same stuff, and will probably finish up about 5-10 points lower than the monsters (who have at least 5-10 points lower AC, so eh).

NPC humanoid non casters are utter and complete jokes, below even trash mobs. Go ahead, compare a high level Fighter to a giant. I'll wait. The giant is lower level, less rewarding, but just as hard if not harder. Even the good ones are, because NPCs get so little loot they cannot be relevant. Full stop. Yes, I said they got dragon hordes before. This is not a contradiction. Triple standard is still far less than a PC will have at any point in time beginning around 3 or so. Since for some reason NPCs are richer at 1 and I think 2.

(PS, our DM is not out to kill us, Roy. We do not fight super-monsters of level +4 above us (Except a boss perhaps). Actually, we fight equal level humanoids..all 4 battles/day in one go I guess).

Level +4 = some percentage of 15% of the total (level + 1-4) + 5% of the total (level +5 or more). Let's just call it 1 in 13... you have 13 battles a level, so this should be happening every single day. Of course if all you do is fight humanoid beatsticks, you can constantly burn rounds jacking off and still win because they're total jokes. If you're fighting real enemies (and that means being actually challenged, not 'DM out to get you) then they tear you apart with normal attacks because AC can't keep up.

The reason for this is simple. AC sucks, and at best functions as video game defense except that you can't get it high enough to make incoming damage sustainable.

[Kaelik]

AC:

1) There are four numeric defenses. Really. There are. The fact that +1 to AC costs more than +1 to the other three is just retarded.

2) Miss chances are better than AC. For the same amount of money, you can give your self displacement, or six other ways of having miss chances. These also work on touch AC stuff, and Rogues.

3) Yes, ABs really do scale that hard. Humanoid PCs get +3 every level, about. At level 20 a Barbarian has +20 BAB, +23 from Str, +5 enhancement, +2 untyped, +1 Luck. And that's assuming he has no spells from anyone and is medium sized. Monsters get about the same total, with different sources, mostly BAB and Str.

Monsters have higher ABs than you think MR nothing can hit me. Dragons are spellcasters. They seriously cast spells that add to AB. Beatstick Monsters have high ABs. You can't point out how you are immune to the AB of a Balor as a big deal, because he is a hybrid, and he is going to stun you and then wail on your stunned ass only after he has killed everyone else.

[virgil]

Roy, fvck your Oberoni. Monsters are NOT expected or designed to have their treasure spent on optimal equipment to be worn. At least half of it is in pure gold/gems, and the rest is randomized and not guaranteed to be items they can use. If you suddenly strap it down with potions, then it's CR is invalid.

I *am* looking at self buffs when I state that no monster of CR 17 or less in the MM is hitting me on less than a 14 except for the Jarl, Greater Stone Golem, and maybe those [awesome] type dragons (of which I have a quiver of greater dispelling arrows); and those buffing types are going to have crap AC still so I'm unbuffing them quickly, since apparently nobody bothers to buff AC anyway in your game.

For example, we took on an old white dragon (real CR 17) that was fully buffed for AC, and I two-rounded it. Yes, if it buffed for attack bonus it could hit me 50% of the time or better, but that's why I *also* deal rogue damage.

I *know* my archer passes the muster in the Same Game Test, so your meme-ridden hyperbole can go screw itself.

[IGTN]

Definitely on the [Awesome] dragons. Old Black Dragon, CR 16, total attack bonus +32 unbuffed. A Mature Adult squeaks in with a +28 unbuffed, more if it's charging, or flanking with a charmed reptile, or whatever.

[Kaelik]

It's fine to talk about awesome type dragons, but they aren't awesome because of their raw numbers or anything. If you take monsters that actually exist solely to punch people in the face, they all have pretty comparable numbers.

+32/+28 at CR 16? Planetar has a +23 unbuffed, and it's a cleric for god sake. (Oh noes, awesome subtype, we get it half the MM has the awesome subtype, that's also the half people actually use.) With just a minimal buffing of three spells it's looking at +33. CR 14 Trumpet Archon is +31 with those spells. The Greater Stone Golem auto hits, but you know what, so does every beatstick construct, because they seriously get +3 BAB per CR, not to mention Str.

Same thing for undead, +2 BAB per CR, and they scale in size a lot, getting huge ABs.

Also, Virgileso, it's okay, he's not insulting your penis extension character. Your character is in the game because he apparently does Rogue damage from hundreds of feet away while taking advantage of green arrow syndrome. That's great. It's also not his AC that keeps him in the game, since the exact same character with a constant Displacement in place of that AC (easily obtainable for cheaper, giving more money for green arrow) would be just as capable of dealing with challenges.

[Psychic Robot]

Your One True Way-ism is astounding as usual, Roytard. People play differently than you do. Don't cry. It's just the Internet.

Fun fact: With your 21,000 posts you've made within the last two years, if you assume that each post you've made took five minutes, which is generous seeing as you're in a PBP and make retarded rants, so it's actually much longer; you've been posting for approximately 73 days straight within the last two years.

You've been sitting on your computer for nearly three fucking months just posting alone. That doesn't even count your amount of time reading, lurking, or browsing 4chan for shitty memes or LOLCATS. Well, please, do yourself a favor– GET THE FUCK OUT.

You responding to this would only be further proof that you can't brush my comments off your shoulder.

You analyzing the above statement as a sneaky way for me to win an e-argument would be further proof of your insecurities.

Not to mention you're a fucking ass burger whom no one respects.

Q.E.D., you fucking fucker. Coup de grace complete.

This is just childish.

For optimization purposes, it can still be done with Paizo. My own archer is mostly core Paizo, non-multiclassed fighter even, except for a handful of magic items (mostly weapon/armor crystals). At level 14 I walk around with a 44 AC while doing rogue level damage. That kind of AC is actually something to brag about, as rare is the day that something needs less than a 16 to hit me on their first attack; even if they're melee brutes.

EDIT: As for saves, immune to mind control (continual protection from evil) & +18/+15/+12 (extra +3 vs fear)

Can you break down the 44 AC and your damage? I'm just curious.

2) Miss chances are better than AC. For the same amount of money, you can give your self displacement, or six other ways of having miss chances. These also work on touch AC stuff, and Rogues.

I know cloak of displacement, but what are some of the others?

3) Yes, ABs really do scale that hard. Humanoid PCs get +3 every level, about. At level 20 a Barbarian has +20 BAB, +23 from Str, +5 enhancement, +2 untyped, +1 Luck. And that's assuming he has no spells from anyone and is medium sized. Monsters get about the same total, with different sources, mostly BAB and Str.

+23 Strength? Shenanigans, perhaps. Even if you start with a 20 in Strength, you've got +5 from leveling, +5 inherent, +5 enhancement, +8 from raging--43 Strength overall, which is a +16 bonus. What else are you using to boost your score, and what is the +2 untyped (charging, flanking?)?

[virgil]

My main annoyance is that I stated my archer as anecdotal evidence, and while the 44 AC isn't the final solution (the archer wasn't designed around AC), it's most certainly not a waste the way Roy feels. The fact there exists a non-majority of monsters that have 50% or better hit chances if you make them 2+ CR higher than your level does not invalidate the existence of AC.

Buffed AC (Magic Vestment on armor/shield): 45 (+15 armor, +6 shield, +2 dodge, +6 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 natural, +1 insight, +1 luck, +1 sacred)
Full Attack: +32/+32/+27/+22 (1d8+22/x3), first attack hits with two arrows
*Damage: Strength +7, Gtr Specialization +4, Wpn Mastery +2, Magic +5, Class +3, Bracers +1

Cloak of Displacement, Ring of Blinking, any sources for entropic shield and blur and mirror image and invisibility. All of these give % miss chances on the user.

[Username17]

What are you using that lets you get +15 AC from Armor, +6 AC from a shield, and still use a bow and get a +6 AC bonus from Dex?

-Username17

[Maxus]

Animated Shield would get the shield out of the way. No idea about the rest.

[imperialspectre]

Probably Paizo's "Armor Training" fighter class feature; it gives the fighter a scaling mundane bonus to the armor bonus of whatever armor the fighter's wearing, as well as increasing max Dex bonus at the same scaling rate.

Combine that with a Mithral Breastplate or something of that sort and a higher-level fighter could get those stats fairly easily.

[Kaelik]

I know cloak of displacement, but what are some of the others?

+23 Strength? Shenanigans, perhaps. Even if you start with a 20 in Strength, you've got +5 from leveling, +5 inherent, +5 enhancement, +8 from raging--43 Strength overall, which is a +16 bonus. What else are you using to boost your score, and what is the +2 untyped (charging, flanking?)?

1) Armor of Displacement, Ring of Blinking, Spells, ToB stuff, UMD.

2) Orc 22 Str start +5 level +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement, +8 Raging=46, which I miscalculated as being +23 by dividing by 2. Actually only +18, though of course, lots of ways to make it higher, like Reckless rage, being big ect.

3) +2 untyped was haste, could also be charging, or flanking, you could also have +2 morale or +2 luck instead of +1, or all sorts of other things. I just didn't want to actually devote any time or effort into actually maximizing AB.

[virgil]

Paizo fighters get a class ability that increases your armor's armor bonus, reduces ACP, and raises max Dex. By level 11, it's at 3 points. I have magic vestment cast on my mithril fullplate and my buckler for +5; since I can afford the -1 attack penalty and it's MUCH cheaper than getting an animated tower shield which still gives a -1 attack penalty.

Expected WBL in Paizo is set higher (185k for 14th), and I got the Leadership feat to get a magic item crafter for a cohort in a system that removed XP costs in item creation, which makes my total wealth closer to 220k; which helps support my Green Arrow addiction.

[Fuchs]

There are also the parry moves like Wall of Blades from Tome of Battle. And the moves that let you reroll saves, or roll other checks in place of the save (not sure about the name(s), book's at home). And there are moves to pass through walls and/or teleport around the battlefield.

I still think ToB did the most to balance "fighters" compared to casters.

[Roy]

I'd smite him for pulling some ACtard bullshit but...

It's fine to talk about awesome type dragons, but they aren't awesome because of their raw numbers or anything. If you take monsters that actually exist solely to punch people in the face, they all have pretty comparable numbers.

+32/+28 at CR 16? Planetar has a +23 unbuffed, and it's a cleric for god sake. (Oh noes, awesome subtype, we get it half the MM has the awesome subtype, that's also the half people actually use.) With just a minimal buffing of three spells it's looking at +33. CR 14 Trumpet Archon is +31 with those spells. The Greater Stone Golem auto hits, but you know what, so does every beatstick construct, because they seriously get +3 BAB per CR, not to mention Str.

Same thing for undead, +2 BAB per CR, and they scale in size a lot, getting huge ABs.

Also, Virgileso, it's okay, he's not insulting your penis extension character. Your character is in the game because he apparently does Rogue damage from hundreds of feet away while taking advantage of green arrow syndrome. That's great. It's also not his AC that keeps him in the game, since the exact same character with a constant Displacement in place of that AC (easily obtainable for cheaper, giving more money for green arrow) would be just as capable of dealing with challenges.

Already covered.

So he's doing 26.5 * 5. A Rogue at that level is doing like 24.5 * 6 or maybe a little higher with bonus SA dice from something. Of course, that's as touch attacks, meaning the Rogue hits 95% of the time with all of his attacks and not just the first three.

Ok, it's a bit lower but not too much.

As long as we're throwing anecdotal evidence and penis extension characters around... AC 57 at level 17. Normal enemies miss about half the time. Bosses don't miss except on a 1. Despite being about 15-20 points higher than it would normally be and requiring that a caster use cap breaking stuff in the form of self only spells + lots of chain spell buffs to get stats up it is still not only barely enough to register, but could be replaced with a basic Displacement spell and there would be a net improvement in effectiveness vs anything that doesn't have True Seeing. And since that spell only lasts a minute a level, about the only times you're going to encounter it is on the stuff that has it naturally, namely Outsiders. And those aren't melee, so it makes no difference.

But seriously virg. Fuck your strawman. No one said 'optimal' equipment. Just that they have treasure in the form of equipment. And that's boosting them somewhat. Though if you really want to get technical about it, those dragons and outsiders and whatever can go waltz into Mage Mart and get whatever suits their desires just like PCs because they're fucking ancient geniuses. Or even make the stuff themselves in some cases. Regardless, this will boost their stats by an amount greater than zero, so trying to compare it to enemies using at most half their resources (lulz, BAB and Str only) is one massive FINAL DESTINATION fallacy.

If this is a random equipment game, then your beatstick archer is stuck saddled down by terrible equipment because he can't convert it into anything useful, therefore no one cares one iota about him in any sense. Especially not the heavily gear dependent AC.

Based on the fact he's at least managing half decency on the other fronts, not to mention doing his 'green arrow' thing which involves lots of specific consumables he clearly is able to get the loot he wants.

By the way, greater dispelling arrows still require that you hit (and that's a minimum of 360 a shot to try). Not exactly useful when the expected level appropriate buffs are also keeping you from hitting. Even trivial shit like Mage Armor and Shield thrown on a monster still boosts its stats by the full 8 points since its AC is coming from (inherent) natural armor for the most part instead of small bonuses of many different types like a PC. Monsters are very buffable. And guess what? Every dragon anywhere near those levels can do that. If you look at stuff higher than level fucking 1... yeah.

I personally find it hilarious the only creatures that can manage decent AC are either enemies or casters, and only the former really has a reason to bother because it's so cheap.

Of course, normal dispels still take them down hard but eh.

TL;DR version: Yet another person trying to defend AC by ignoring all the enemies that actually matter after trying to arbitrarily gimp them failed.

[virgil]

[Monster stats as written = CR =/= Monster Stats + Mage Mart or Gear from Treasure] =/= fallacy

Already mentioned the crafter. Most monsters will think like you and not buff their AC and instead opt for displacement et all; which I ignore completely.

[Roy]

So in other words, you're pulling a FINAL DESTINATION. Pity, you seemed intelligent. I'd have thought you knew better.

[Wulf]

Wow, a lot of information to digest. Thank to all your people for explaining it in greater depths (despite the discussions that flare up about it ).

It made me read MM1 again, to see how you should equip monsters. Well, generally, according to the MM1, you don't except when they have advancement based on class levels.

As written in MM1 atleast, for example, Dragons do not have class level advancement (only HD advancement), so they just have treasure, not equipment. As I copied below from MM1, treasure is not equal to equipment.

===============================================
MM1 (page 291):
If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of “By character class” receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.
===============================================

Ofcourse, dragons have an inborn sorcerer casting level, so really they advance both in HD en Sorcerer class at the same time, but dragons are suppose to be elite boss monsters I guess.

However, MM1 doesnt make always sense. MM2 shows advancement through HD including size increases. The increased stats didnt make any sense at all for only +2 CR..well, no sense to me atleast. Ugh.

[Roy]

MM2 is borked. Ignore it.

As for monsters in general... Dragons specifically can equip anything a person can despite having drastically different anatomies. And most Outsiders are more or less humanoid in shape, so same deal. That covers most intelligent enemies right there. Also, said creatures often have shapeshifting abilities, disguise abilities, or just the ability to get to a place that doesn't care about their parentage.

And the other stuff at least has some options. Quadrupeds can use most stuff if it is designed for them, and a good part of books like Lords of Madness does detail the hows and whys of this... including what stuff Beholders and such can use.

Kindly keep the 'loot spawns from sprite' and 'mobs guard chests of stuff they don't use despite being able to' bullshit confined to 4.Fail, where it belongs.

[Wulf]

MM2 is borked. Ignore it.

As for monsters in general... Dragons specifically can equip anything a person can despite having drastically different anatomies. And most Outsiders are more or less humanoid in shape, so same deal. That covers most intelligent enemies right there. Also, said creatures often have shapeshifting abilities, disguise abilities, or just the ability to get to a place that doesn't care about their parentage.

And the other stuff at least has some options. Quadrupeds can use most stuff if it is designed for them, and a good part of books like Lords of Madness does detail the hows and whys of this... including what stuff Beholders and such can use.

Kindly keep the 'loot spawns from sprite' and 'mobs guard chests of stuff they don't use despite being able to' bullshit confined to 4.Fail, where it belongs.

1) MM2 do seem to have rather "off" stats.

2) Where does it say a dragon can equip anything? They dont have "advance in class levels" for advancement, so they dont get normally equipment.

Ofcourse, if I was a dragon, I will simply shapeshift into a human, dress up in magical bling-bling and shift back to a dragon. But based on the rules/guidelines of MM and such, dragons do not wear equipment because they dont advance through class-levels. That doesnt say I agree with the rules or even if they are logical/intelligent. Its a rule for balance, not to be logical I guess.

3) who is talking about spawning chests or sprite droppings?! I am simply talking that treasure doesnt equal equipment. Sprites dont spawn anything, but you can kill them and loot their homes for stuff after the killing.

[violence in the media]

Treasure doesn't necessarily equal equipment, but the idea is that you should roll treasure for an encounter beforehand. Then, if you roll up something that the monster in question can use, it should do so. Thus, you're not putting plate mail on bears, but you are letting that dragon use the Rod of Quicken it has in its treasure pile.

[Kaelik]

It says that if they don't have class levels they should have treasure, not NPC gear. That doesn't mean that they can't use the treasure, it just means a lot of it is wasted in gold and crap.

Now, no human being alive actually rolls their monster lewt. But for hypothetical sake I went ahead and rolled just the magical items part of a CR 16 Black Dragon.

He received: 2 potions of Mage Armor, one of Protection from Good. A wand of Delay Poison, and of Hold Person. A Divine Scroll of Cat's Grace and Charm Animal, and another of Death Knell and detect undead.

A Strand of Lesser Prayer Beads and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +2.

Most of that shit is frankly useless, but you are rolling so much crap that + enhancement to Str item, or Mighty Fists, or a potion of Good Hope are serious possibilities, and you'll probably get at least something like that.

And anyone who seriously believes that an Int elevendy billion Dragon would have an Amulet of Mighty Fists sitting in his horde and not using it is just a fool.

[Psychic Robot]

Now, no human being alive actually rolls their monster lewt.

Our group does. Whenever we win a big fight, the players roll for loot.

[Roy]

Now, no human being alive actually rolls their monster lewt.

Our group does. Whenever we win a big fight, the players roll for loot.

You're a robot.

[TavishArtair]

I play a lot under a DM that rolls loot. He even made more complete loot-generation tables for a more even distribution including stuff from supplements.

[Roy]

2) Where does it say a dragon can equip anything? They dont have "advance in class levels" for advancement, so they dont get normally equipment.

Right here.

Not only can they do so, but they will. The only restrictions are on weapons and armor because they don't have that 'size to form' line that every other magic item does.

And since the reason given is 'very smart and very wealthy' it also applies to most Outsiders. Who are even older and in some cases smarter. They aren't quite as rich though as most of them only have double instead of triple (triple being NPC wealth, since it equates to that). Though some of them do get extra stuff, mostly weapons in addition to that. Which actually makes them richer. But anyways. In other words, the dragon is as rich as a humanoid NPC. And while humanoid NPCs are jokes because human or whatever base race chassis is not so great, they need gear to make up for it but don't get enough, imagine applying the same to a dragon and you understand why these guys are advocated as scary (and why people love making dragon cock jokes about them).

So suffice it to say, the MM is wrong.

3) who is talking about spawning chests or sprite droppings?! I am simply talking that treasure doesnt equal equipment. Sprites dont spawn anything, but you can kill them and loot their homes for stuff after the killing.

Because if it is just random stuff and they don't use it, then that's what's happening. They either guard a chest of stuff they are smart enough to use but don't, or random items pop out of the corpse (and you hope for a Windforce or something).

Because either the PCs are intelligently selecting their items, and so is every other intelligent creature in the world or none of them are, and any discussion about PC non casters is automatically irrelevant because PC non casters cannot be relevant under such conditions.