In an earlier thread (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49910,) Mr. Trollman talked about paring the D&D scheme down to a very basic, elegant form (at least in my mind); making character generation a series of binary choices that later informed ability selection and generally simplifying the game as a whole, probably just making a new game system entirely.
I really liked that idea. It's been stealing some of my free time lately, mostly because I like to tease out these kinds of things while I'm at work, though I probably can't analyze the interacting systems with the kind of finesse that is required to make a good game. I worked on it for a bit, and I was wondering if anyone else would want to work together to make a workable game out of it.
I have a draft version of what I worked on, and I can PM it or put onto google Docs if anyone cares to take a look. Or, we could start from scratch, that'd work too.
Tag System
Moderator: Moderators
-
CatharzGodfoot
- King
- Posts: 5668
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: North Carolina
If you're not too worried about it getting torn to shreds, post it here.
I agree that the system Frank outlined has a lot of potential, although that was more a discussion of how to distill 4e than how to make a good 4e-esqe system from scratch. At the very last, you'd probably want to come up with more evocative attributes. None of the actual abilities of 4e are worth keeping.
In a broad way, you'll end up with something that like a lot like two of Frank's other projects: AWoD and TNE.
Alternatively, do the lazy thing and keep as much of 4e as possible while removing all of the chafe. That would be a much more playable 4e, but it would still be 4e.
I also wonder how you would do defenses, as the current mapping doesn't work well. I suppose that it's simplest to allow the player to arrange her primary, secondary, and tertiary bonuses however she likes.
I agree that the system Frank outlined has a lot of potential, although that was more a discussion of how to distill 4e than how to make a good 4e-esqe system from scratch. At the very last, you'd probably want to come up with more evocative attributes. None of the actual abilities of 4e are worth keeping.
In a broad way, you'll end up with something that like a lot like two of Frank's other projects: AWoD and TNE.
Alternatively, do the lazy thing and keep as much of 4e as possible while removing all of the chafe. That would be a much more playable 4e, but it would still be 4e.
I also wonder how you would do defenses, as the current mapping doesn't work well. I suppose that it's simplest to allow the player to arrange her primary, secondary, and tertiary bonuses however she likes.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
Let the reaming begin:
http://www.google.com/notebook/public/1 ... oQmsXpqqEk
___
In this engine, there are a number of basic attributes, and level-measured bonuses derived from having “tagged” and “untagged” statistics. For the rudimentary system I like having four attributes, but you can have as little as 2 or up to however as many as makes you feel good about yourself. The attributes I'll be working with are:
Toughness, Quickness, Cunning and Magic
But those monikers could be changed to fit the game. For a futuristic hacking/cyber-combat game, the stats could be Meat, Tech, Data and Hax. For that, though, you’re on your own. I’ll just be doing the powers and mechanics for a fantasy/magic game.
In addition to the basic attributes, players also choose from a list of skills and powers to have for their character. Mechanics will utilize bonuses associated with tagged statistics, like making attacks, skill checks or doing various stunts.
“Tagging” an ability allows a character to use their Primary bonus for actions using that ability, while leaving an attribute “untagged” forces them to use a Secondary bonus. A Primary bonus is derived from the character’s level plus 5, while a Secondary bonus is derived from character level.
At character creation, characters “tag” two of the basic attributes, and pretty much all those determine are the powers they can choose for their careers as adventurers, mages, assassins, and soldiers; whatever. There are finite combinations of tagged base attributes possible, so the suites of powers and abilities could be called “classes” if that makes you feel better about it. A Quickness/Cunning character could be a “Trickster” while a Toughness/Magic character could be a “Knight;” whatever you decide, really. There are ten categories of powers, one for each stat and one for each combination of stats. There are Toughness powers just as there are Toughness/Quickness powers. The dual-stat powers can only be taken if you have both stats tagged, while the single-stat powers can be taken by anyone with that stat tagged. Killing Fields could only be taken by a Toughness/Quickness character while anyone with Magic tagged as a stat can pick up the Magic Wall power.
---
In a combat, character health could be measured simply as a function of character level, with powers chosen by players altering that function. For a regular, D&D-like game, we’ll say that “hit points” are 8 per character level. Attacks could be resolved by a variety of means, but as the old standby is the d20, we’ll go with that. A character’s primary bonus should add to the attack number. Damage would work in a similarly sized variety of ways, and can be formatted to fit the game. For example, in a D&D-like game, a power could be:
Killing Fields
Level 1 Toughness/Quickness
Effect: Designate up to 3 targets within 10 meters. As you dart from foe to foe at a blinding speed, make an attack vs. Physical defense that deals 1d8/level damage against each target designated. Move up to 2 meters away from the last target hit by this attack.
While in the vein of the Snowcrash-esque cyber-combat game, where we could say that players and their enemies have a variety of systems or avatars that they have to destroy or disable, abstracted as a collection of hit points broken up into segments, a power could be:
Spam
Level 1 Data
Effect: Inundate a target system on the same Grid as you with irrelevant requests. Make an attack vs. Firewall, dealing 1d6/level damage. Target system loses its next action as it tries to deal with all the information sent to it.
Character defenses are separated into Physical defenses, and Spiritual (or Mental, it doesn’t matter what it’s named,) defenses. Players “tag” one defense at character creation, and apply their Primary bonus to that defense. The Secondary bonus is applied to the untagged defense. Attack powers will target one of these two defenses, on an individual basis. A Toughness power could very well attack Spiritual defenses, and I’m ok with that. If you want to streamline combats at the table, calculate defenses from 10+bonus. If you want greater randomness to combat, have a defending character roll a d20+defense bonus each time they’re attacked and have the attacker test against the roll.
---
In a roleplaying game, you are a person, not “an archer,” or a “blacksmith.” Sometimes the game will take you to places where having the “Smithing” ability does fuck-all for the party; at the bottom of a lake, for example. At that point, if there were no general mechanics for action resolution, you’d be screwed. But there are, and in the Tag system they function much the same as other character abilities. Characters have "tagged" skills and "untagged" skills. A tagged skill uses the Primary bonus, and an untagged skill uses the Secondary bonus. Starting to see a pattern here? The number of skills can vary, really to as many as you want for your game, but keeping the amount of unique mechanics to track down to single digits is nice. I'll be working with a set of [6] or so skills, and player characters can have up to [2] of them tagged*. The following is a list of the named skills and associated acts:
http://www.google.com/notebook/public/1 ... oQmsXpqqEk
___
In this engine, there are a number of basic attributes, and level-measured bonuses derived from having “tagged” and “untagged” statistics. For the rudimentary system I like having four attributes, but you can have as little as 2 or up to however as many as makes you feel good about yourself. The attributes I'll be working with are:
Toughness, Quickness, Cunning and Magic
But those monikers could be changed to fit the game. For a futuristic hacking/cyber-combat game, the stats could be Meat, Tech, Data and Hax. For that, though, you’re on your own. I’ll just be doing the powers and mechanics for a fantasy/magic game.
In addition to the basic attributes, players also choose from a list of skills and powers to have for their character. Mechanics will utilize bonuses associated with tagged statistics, like making attacks, skill checks or doing various stunts.
“Tagging” an ability allows a character to use their Primary bonus for actions using that ability, while leaving an attribute “untagged” forces them to use a Secondary bonus. A Primary bonus is derived from the character’s level plus 5, while a Secondary bonus is derived from character level.
At character creation, characters “tag” two of the basic attributes, and pretty much all those determine are the powers they can choose for their careers as adventurers, mages, assassins, and soldiers; whatever. There are finite combinations of tagged base attributes possible, so the suites of powers and abilities could be called “classes” if that makes you feel better about it. A Quickness/Cunning character could be a “Trickster” while a Toughness/Magic character could be a “Knight;” whatever you decide, really. There are ten categories of powers, one for each stat and one for each combination of stats. There are Toughness powers just as there are Toughness/Quickness powers. The dual-stat powers can only be taken if you have both stats tagged, while the single-stat powers can be taken by anyone with that stat tagged. Killing Fields could only be taken by a Toughness/Quickness character while anyone with Magic tagged as a stat can pick up the Magic Wall power.
---
In a combat, character health could be measured simply as a function of character level, with powers chosen by players altering that function. For a regular, D&D-like game, we’ll say that “hit points” are 8 per character level. Attacks could be resolved by a variety of means, but as the old standby is the d20, we’ll go with that. A character’s primary bonus should add to the attack number. Damage would work in a similarly sized variety of ways, and can be formatted to fit the game. For example, in a D&D-like game, a power could be:
Killing Fields
Level 1 Toughness/Quickness
Effect: Designate up to 3 targets within 10 meters. As you dart from foe to foe at a blinding speed, make an attack vs. Physical defense that deals 1d8/level damage against each target designated. Move up to 2 meters away from the last target hit by this attack.
While in the vein of the Snowcrash-esque cyber-combat game, where we could say that players and their enemies have a variety of systems or avatars that they have to destroy or disable, abstracted as a collection of hit points broken up into segments, a power could be:
Spam
Level 1 Data
Effect: Inundate a target system on the same Grid as you with irrelevant requests. Make an attack vs. Firewall, dealing 1d6/level damage. Target system loses its next action as it tries to deal with all the information sent to it.
Character defenses are separated into Physical defenses, and Spiritual (or Mental, it doesn’t matter what it’s named,) defenses. Players “tag” one defense at character creation, and apply their Primary bonus to that defense. The Secondary bonus is applied to the untagged defense. Attack powers will target one of these two defenses, on an individual basis. A Toughness power could very well attack Spiritual defenses, and I’m ok with that. If you want to streamline combats at the table, calculate defenses from 10+bonus. If you want greater randomness to combat, have a defending character roll a d20+defense bonus each time they’re attacked and have the attacker test against the roll.
---
In a roleplaying game, you are a person, not “an archer,” or a “blacksmith.” Sometimes the game will take you to places where having the “Smithing” ability does fuck-all for the party; at the bottom of a lake, for example. At that point, if there were no general mechanics for action resolution, you’d be screwed. But there are, and in the Tag system they function much the same as other character abilities. Characters have "tagged" skills and "untagged" skills. A tagged skill uses the Primary bonus, and an untagged skill uses the Secondary bonus. Starting to see a pattern here? The number of skills can vary, really to as many as you want for your game, but keeping the amount of unique mechanics to track down to single digits is nice. I'll be working with a set of [6] or so skills, and player characters can have up to [2] of them tagged*. The following is a list of the named skills and associated acts:
- Athletics (running, jumping, climbing, riding, swimming, etc.)
Sense (sight, hearing, smell, vibration sense, magic sense, etc.)
Talent (professional skills, creating objects, manipulating objects, etc.)
Deftness (sneaking, picking pockets, balance, precise motions, etc.)
Lore (history, magical knowledge, general facts, etc.)
Etiquette (social stigmas, eloquence, deception, empathy, etc.)
Last edited by Artless on Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Okay, I have to give you fair warning...
Post the text up here. Here, we can refer to it more easily, and have the quote button, and don't have to switch between windows and all that.
But I will say I'm interested in seeing it.
Post the text up here. Here, we can refer to it more easily, and have the quote button, and don't have to switch between windows and all that.
But I will say I'm interested in seeing it.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
You'll want to narrow your focus to whatever game you're actually intent upon designing, because the majority of the work is filling in powers. And those will be different for whatever genre. However many taggable stats you have (call it "X"), you'll have that many multiclassable ability lists that can each appear in X-1 classes. And you'll have (X+1)*X/2 classes to choose from.
So for example, let's say that you made a Superhero game with five taggables:
But to take it back to pure math, with 4 taggables each single suit power is available to 3 distinct character types and six total classes.With 6 taggables, each single power can be taken by five different classes, and there are 15 essentially different tag options. At 7 it is 6 and 21; at eight it's 7 and 28.
-Username17
So for example, let's say that you made a Superhero game with five taggables:
- Strong
- Fast
- Resourceful
- Mystic
- Smart
- Strong, Fast (Cape)
- Strong, Resourceful (Brick)
- Strong, Mystic (Monster)
- Strong, Smart (Suit)
- Fast, Resourceful (Speedster)
- Fast, Mystic (Sorcerer)
- Fast, Smart (Blaster)
- Resourceful, Mystic (Controller)
- Resourceful, Smart (Gadgeteer)
- Mystic, Smart (Mentalist)
But to take it back to pure math, with 4 taggables each single suit power is available to 3 distinct character types and six total classes.With 6 taggables, each single power can be taken by five different classes, and there are 15 essentially different tag options. At 7 it is 6 and 21; at eight it's 7 and 28.
-Username17
So let's say, for example, that the game setting involves groups of hired killers and assassins based out of a large imperial metropolis, who use every possible trick in the book to snuff out the competition and get the kill, until eventually earning commissions from the Emperor himself and becoming the undisputed rulers of rooftops and alleyways.
A list of possible character archetypes for this gimmick should include:
A list of possible character archetypes for this gimmick should include:
- Duelist - who is capable of interrupting attacks and letting blood when the lettin's good. He is capable of acrobatic feats that amaze and astound, and knows how to get into and out of tight spots fairly well. (Toughness/Quickness)
Brawler - who uses throws, trips, grappling and simple placement tricks to keep enemies locked down and in their range. He can keep pace with a wolf, and knows his way around the city just because he's lived there a long time. (Toughness/Cunning)
Wielder - who taps into his own natural magic to pummel, blast and crush foes in close range. He can bolster his defenses with magic or imbue his allies with mysterious powers from spirited cries, and can destroy property with little effort. (Toughness/Magic)
Assassin - who kills swiftly and efficiently, using poisons and surprise attacks to put one foe out for the fight. They are able to weave through crowded city streets without getting noticed, and can gather vital information about a target.(Quickness/Cunning)
Hunter - who can hit foes from a great distance with bolts of lightning or wailing spirits. She has an uncanny ability to avoid close combat by using magic and her natural agility to find high ground or dart from rooftop to rooftop with ease. (Quickness/Magic)
Abjurer - who shapes the battlefield to their and their party's advantage, setting traps, alarms, creating walls of air and blasting enemies away with magic force. She is capable of scrying to stealthily retrieve enemy positions and other information. (Cunning/Magic)
Last edited by Artless on Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Sure. Of course, with only 4 tags, anything that is available to more than one class is by definition available to half the classes. With 6 tags, the single tag abilities are available to a third of the classes, and with 8 tags the powers available to multiple classes are available to a quarter of the classes.
The more tags you add, the less overlap there will be for characters' available powers. Which means there is more variety, but also means that there is more work.
-Username17
The more tags you add, the less overlap there will be for characters' available powers. Which means there is more variety, but also means that there is more work.
-Username17
Which I am perfectly fine with; for the setting I'd rather have a stable of interesting but balanced choices with a more limited range than wildly differing character archetypes. Nominally, everybody is a hired killer, and I'd expect to see some overlap in the methods that they use. Standardized tricks of the trade as it were, but that may just be my taste. Though 4 tags might not be as granular or comprehensive as 8 tags or even 5 tags, with a sizable number of powers to choose from I think that might be mitigated a bit. Though, even that depends on how many of these powers people actually get per level, if not all of them at once. It could go either way, really, but I think for now I can just stick with a few tags and try my hand at making the choices offered by them interesting.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
However many tags you have, that's just your system for dividing up the abilities you have, not for what the abilities themselves do. You're still going to want:
Resource Management:
Resource Management is tactically interesting and potentially quite deep. Unfortunately it often leads to fiddly bits that are frankly hard to deal with. People have trouble adding and subtracting two digit numbers in any reasonable amount of time with any accuracy (sad but true). It's a difficult tug of war. A system I am currently throwing around works like this:
Team Work
You want a system where characters have noticeably different abilities and the team as a whole is benefited from having different abilities used in tandem by different players. Lots of ways to do this, but it should be a core part of how the game is designed.
Tactical Choices
Auto-Attack is really boring. If you make position a thing, it should matter. The game should be complicated enough that it is difficult to math hammer. Of course, you're going to want to math hammer it anyway as part of playtesting - which is painful. But no one said this was supposed to be easy.
-Username17
Resource Management:
Resource Management is tactically interesting and potentially quite deep. Unfortunately it often leads to fiddly bits that are frankly hard to deal with. People have trouble adding and subtracting two digit numbers in any reasonable amount of time with any accuracy (sad but true). It's a difficult tug of war. A system I am currently throwing around works like this:
- Limited Powers have to be charged up ahead of time. During your Recovery Phase at the end of your tun you can nominate a power to attempt to charge up. Then you roll a die. If it gets equal to the charge-up number of the power or more, you can use the power next turn.
- You also have a number of Unlimited Powers. These are assigned to specific numbers on the charge up die, and you can use any of the ones associated with the number you literally rolled instead of the power you decided to charge up (whether or not it successfully did or not).
Team Work
You want a system where characters have noticeably different abilities and the team as a whole is benefited from having different abilities used in tandem by different players. Lots of ways to do this, but it should be a core part of how the game is designed.
Tactical Choices
Auto-Attack is really boring. If you make position a thing, it should matter. The game should be complicated enough that it is difficult to math hammer. Of course, you're going to want to math hammer it anyway as part of playtesting - which is painful. But no one said this was supposed to be easy.
-Username17
I made a chart, but realized I made a mistake on it so I'll get it fixed and upp'd today when I have time.
But anyway, the breakdown of this scheme would be that characters have Basic, Special and Team attacks. If anyone in the party uses a basic power, the that person can start using their Specials. Once everyone has used a Special power at least once, one player can initiate the Team powers, which lets everyone use a Team power for a round. Once they use the Team powers, they revert to Basic again.
Does that seem workable?
Edit: Forget the chart. It looked dumb anyway.
But anyway, the breakdown of this scheme would be that characters have Basic, Special and Team attacks. If anyone in the party uses a basic power, the that person can start using their Specials. Once everyone has used a Special power at least once, one player can initiate the Team powers, which lets everyone use a Team power for a round. Once they use the Team powers, they revert to Basic again.
Does that seem workable?
Edit: Forget the chart. It looked dumb anyway.
Last edited by Artless on Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
A rudimentary test showed that combat did not have the pace I was looking for.
I'm wondering if there's a way to get a workable scheme where doing damage is a special effect. Basic powers would apply status effects or do some other jazz, and Special powers dealt damage according to status effects already placed on a target, maybe exhausted the status effect when they hit. Bigger attacks might refresh it instead.
I'll work on that for a bit, see if it bears fruit.
I'm wondering if there's a way to get a workable scheme where doing damage is a special effect. Basic powers would apply status effects or do some other jazz, and Special powers dealt damage according to status effects already placed on a target, maybe exhausted the status effect when they hit. Bigger attacks might refresh it instead.
I'll work on that for a bit, see if it bears fruit.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
It's entirely possible to have no hit points at all and just have an effect threshold that knocks people out. Attacks can universally throw down statuses, which vary depending upon the attack threshold you get. One of the common statuses would increase the damage threshold of future attacks.
-Username17
-Username17
Doesn't true20 or M&M's use a damage threshold? How many myriad kinds of status effects could be piled on top of each other?
Could something like a FIFO of effects work? Someone blinds, another stuns, the next trips, but the next status takes away the blind, etc. Each of those could interact differently, increasing the threshold at the same time. Then, durations could be done away with, making a status effect move along this track. There could be minor powers or even attacks that removed effects or prevented them all together; both translate as reducing the threshold as well.
Or, Perhaps:A person starts Okay, and various effects push them either way along the track. When they reach the end of the Poor spectrum, they are out of the fight. At Good, they have a host of anti-damage effects going on.
With this, there are now two status tracks instead of one, and the "hit points" are simply the number of effects that any one character can sustain before keeling over; that characters can sustain X/level effects before dying would replace 8 hp/level. Some characters may have a buffer of abilities that put them further along the Good spectrum instead of starting out Okay and others that push them back along that way. Stonger attacks slide the target further along the track while weak attacks chip away and nudge them along.
Or, instead of having a general track, status effects could have unique tracks; Off-balance turns into Jarred, turns into Dazed, turns into Stunned, turns into Knocked Out when characters continue to use "stunning" attacks. 3rd edition Fear effects worked like that, if I recall correctly.
Could something like a FIFO of effects work? Someone blinds, another stuns, the next trips, but the next status takes away the blind, etc. Each of those could interact differently, increasing the threshold at the same time. Then, durations could be done away with, making a status effect move along this track. There could be minor powers or even attacks that removed effects or prevented them all together; both translate as reducing the threshold as well.
Or, Perhaps:
Code: Select all
X--------------X----------------X
Good Okay Poor
With this, there are now two status tracks instead of one, and the "hit points" are simply the number of effects that any one character can sustain before keeling over; that characters can sustain X/level effects before dying would replace 8 hp/level. Some characters may have a buffer of abilities that put them further along the Good spectrum instead of starting out Okay and others that push them back along that way. Stonger attacks slide the target further along the track while weak attacks chip away and nudge them along.
Or, instead of having a general track, status effects could have unique tracks; Off-balance turns into Jarred, turns into Dazed, turns into Stunned, turns into Knocked Out when characters continue to use "stunning" attacks. 3rd edition Fear effects worked like that, if I recall correctly.
Last edited by Artless on Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Dammit... a couple of tests and I'm not getting anywhere.
I was using my earlier idea, where players had to apply status effects before dealing damage, and it turned out a lot wonkier and/or cluttered than I thought it would.
Frank, do you mind if I implement your resource scheme, at least partially, for the time being? I've done about six active abilities each for the Brawler, Hunter and Abjurer's first level just to use for basic tests. So what I'd be working with would be similar to the second parameter for your scheme, probably nixing the first part for now.
Aside from that, some minor queries:
1. How do you think ranged attacks and melee attacks should be balance against one another? I've been applying defense bonuses for opponents out to specific ranges as the only real difference, as such:
2. I've been trying to make it so the active abilities also have uses outside of combat, and I'd greatly appreciate any ideas on the matter. For example:
I'll probably have more things to ask; I'll edit this post when I think of them.
Edit: So character abilities get assigned to a number on a d6, and as they gain levels they can assign more abilities to each number, just so they can choose from a wider variety each time they roll. At first level, they'll be able to pick 3 powers and assign them to the d6. Heft for 1-2, Pound for 3-4 and Rat's Word of Kindness for 5-6. At second, they pick 3 abilities, so on and so forth for 6 levels until they have 3 powers on each number. You can use one of them in a round, and then you roll at the end for your next set. The abilities you get at first level aren't inherently less powerful than the ones at 5th, you just get more variety in their effects.
I was using my earlier idea, where players had to apply status effects before dealing damage, and it turned out a lot wonkier and/or cluttered than I thought it would.
Frank, do you mind if I implement your resource scheme, at least partially, for the time being? I've done about six active abilities each for the Brawler, Hunter and Abjurer's first level just to use for basic tests. So what I'd be working with would be similar to the second parameter for your scheme, probably nixing the first part for now.
Aside from that, some minor queries:
1. How do you think ranged attacks and melee attacks should be balance against one another? I've been applying defense bonuses for opponents out to specific ranges as the only real difference, as such:
- Melee(0-2 meters): +0
Near (>2 meters, <10 meters):+2
Far (>10 meters, <50 meters): +4
Distant (>50 meters, <250 meters): +6
2. I've been trying to make it so the active abilities also have uses outside of combat, and I'd greatly appreciate any ideas on the matter. For example:
- Heft
Level 1 Brawler
Effect: You can lift stupefyingly large amounts of weight. Roll an Athletics test and multiply the result by 10. You can lift that many kilograms of matter and throw it up to 10 meters. If you choose to use this in combat, make an attack vs. Physical against an opponent within 2 meters instead of the Athletics test. Deal 1d6/level damage and place the target Prone anywhere within 10 meters.
I'll probably have more things to ask; I'll edit this post when I think of them.
Edit: So character abilities get assigned to a number on a d6, and as they gain levels they can assign more abilities to each number, just so they can choose from a wider variety each time they roll. At first level, they'll be able to pick 3 powers and assign them to the d6. Heft for 1-2, Pound for 3-4 and Rat's Word of Kindness for 5-6. At second, they pick 3 abilities, so on and so forth for 6 levels until they have 3 powers on each number. You can use one of them in a round, and then you roll at the end for your next set. The abilities you get at first level aren't inherently less powerful than the ones at 5th, you just get more variety in their effects.
Last edited by Artless on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:21 pm, edited 7 times in total.
These are the abilities I'm working with for tests at the moment; I'm having characters pick two Basic abilities and three Advanced abilities. Basic abilities are always on, and Advanced abilities are assigned to the die for combat.
Hunter Abilities
Brawler Abilities
I'm redoing all of the Abjurer's abilities; they were boring. I also need to get these to match better, because right now the character's priorities are kind of all over the map. And, of course, do the rest of their levels and the other classes.
Ugh... I'm just not very good at this. Whatever. I'll keep working on it.
Hunter Abilities
Quickness and Magic
A hunter is an agile stalker in the night, whose unerring accuracy and precise control over wild, untamable magic is universally feared. A primarily distant combatant, the hunter prefers to have her friends far away and her enemies even farther. In a ditch. Dead. Her professional and efficient approach provides necessary support for her allies in direct confrontation, and she is well suited to finding the best angles and hiding spots for any situation.
Basic Abilities
A hunter is an agile stalker in the night, whose unerring accuracy and precise control over wild, untamable magic is universally feared. A primarily distant combatant, the hunter prefers to have her friends far away and her enemies even farther. In a ditch. Dead. Her professional and efficient approach provides necessary support for her allies in direct confrontation, and she is well suited to finding the best angles and hiding spots for any situation.
Basic Abilities
- Eagle Eye
Effect: Your sight is better than anyone else’s. When making a test to see an object, creature or person, you automatically succeed. This does not apply to hiding or invisible objects/people/creatures.
*Pragmatic Killer
Effect: If you did not move at all during a round of combat, you may choose your next power set instead of rolling for it.
Agile
Effect: You may tag Athletics or Deftness in addition to your normally Tagged skills.
Alchemical Fortune
Effect: You make your own luck, quite literally. You can create alchemical compounds that somehow just make things fall into place when you consume them. You may reroll any skill test, taking either result.
- Spirit Ally
Effect: You coerce wayward spirits to harass your intended target, sometimes with a lethal aim. Make an Etiquette test to convince a random spirit to help you. The spirit is invisible, and is capable of passing through walls, but not wards. The spirit can make Sense tests with your Primary bonus once every 5 minutes, relaying any information gleaned back to you through magical means. Used in combat, you may make an attack vs. Spiritual against one target within 50 meters that you can see instead of the Etiquette test. Deal 1d8/level damage.
Chariot of Terror
Effect: In the distance you hear the agonized screams coming from your foe, who was assaulted by a wailing, screeching chariot of chained spirits. The near-constant clanging and bleating would drive anyone mad. Make an Attack vs. Spiritual against one target within 50 meters. Deal 1d6/level damage. When out of a combat, you may use this chariot to travel. Make an Etiquette test. If you pass, it takes you to one destination in half the time it would take to walk. If you fail, nothing happens and you can't ask it to transport you for a day.
Burst Shard
Effect: A crystalline shard, you had it in your pocket maybe, detonates, sending magic shrapnel flying every which way. Make an attack vs. Spiritual against up to three targets within 10 meters. Deal 1d6/level damage.
Quarrel
Effect: You use your trusted bow to keep any who seek to do harm away from you. Make an attack vs. Physical against one target within 50 meters. Deal 1d6/level damage and apply a negative condition that prevents them from moving more than 2 meters each turn.
Lightning Bolt
Effect: You harness the power of storms to strike your foe, though not literally. You may create alchemical compounds that, when shot from a bow or sling or crossbow, explode and aggravate the charged particles in the air into a blistering tree of atmospheric discharge. Make an attack vs. Physical against one target within 50 meters. Deal 1d6/level damage and half as much damage (rounded down) to every creature within 4 meters of the target.
Fortune's Fickle Nature
Effect: Sometimes when you hit people, things happen to them, that you didn't do, that just make their day really crappy. Make an attack vs. Physical against one target within 50 meters. Deal 1d6/level damage and apply a negative condition to the target that halves any damage they deal because maybe a bail of hay falls on them in the middle of their swing, or something.
Toughness and Cunning
The Brawler is a blend of martial prowess and practical knowledge. From street rats to gladiators, Brawlers everywhere know that a little bit of power applied in the right place can make all the difference. Their combat is fluid and creative, changing with the pace and rhythm of a given moment. They are capable of amazing feats of strength and magnificent displays of spirit, as well as issuing terrible insults.
Basic Abilities
The Brawler is a blend of martial prowess and practical knowledge. From street rats to gladiators, Brawlers everywhere know that a little bit of power applied in the right place can make all the difference. Their combat is fluid and creative, changing with the pace and rhythm of a given moment. They are capable of amazing feats of strength and magnificent displays of spirit, as well as issuing terrible insults.
Basic Abilities
- Incredible Fortitude
Effect: Your natural physique and/or rigorous training reward you with never-ending stamina and an iron will. You never tire and you may exhaust one negative condition at the end of each round.
Street Dweller
Effect: You are familiar with a strangely large number of architectural styles, city sections and specific buildings, as well as important figures, businesses of ill-repute and drifters. Any time you need to make a Lore test to locate an area or character within the City, you automatically succeed.
Healthy
Effect: You have an additional 5 hit points per level. Also, you replenish all hit points when you eat a full turkey.
Urchin
Effect: You have Athletics or Lore as a Tagged skill, in addition to your normal Tagged skills.
- Rat’s Word of Kindness
Effect: Just as you’re able to say terrible things about your enemies, you may, at times, also give backhanded comments to your teammates. Whether they understand the joke or not is entirely dependent on the joke, but it’s still pretty funny anyway. One Target that can hear you exhausts a negative condition. Target heals 1d8/level hit points.
Heft
Effect: You can lift stupefyingly large amounts of weight. Roll an Athletics test and multiply the result by 10. You can lift that many kilograms of matter and throw it up to 10 meters. If you choose to use this in combat, make an attack vs. Physical against an opponent within 2 meters instead of the Athletics test. Deal 1d8/level damage and place the target anywhere within 10 meters.
Blunt Trauma
Effect: Make an attack vs. Physical against one target within 2 meters. Deal 2d6/level damage.
Bastard’s Forte
Effect: You issue series of very mean, cutting, biting or hurtful remarks. They really are just awful things to say; so much so in fact, that the person you’re making light of is actually pained by them to the point of real, tangible agony. Make an attack vs. Spiritual against one target that you can see and can hear you. Deal 1d6/level damage.
Knuckle
Effect: You prove that you really are just a mean-spirited individual, making a fairly unsporting jab to a tender spot. Make an attack vs. Physical versus one target within 2 meters that deals 1d8/level damage. The target doubles over from the initial, sharp pain and is crippled from the remaining dull ache. They acquire a negative condition that applies a -4 penalty to attack rolls.
Grappling
Effect: You twist your opponent into painful positions. Make an attack vs. Physical against one target within 2 meters. Deal 1d8/level damage. Apply a negative condition that prevents them from moving farther than 2 meters each turn.
Ugh... I'm just not very good at this. Whatever. I'll keep working on it.
Last edited by Artless on Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Let's do an example with Pokemon because it is inherently easy to understand. So as we know, Pikachu can use powerful electric powers, but he has to spend a lot of effort and/or charge up or something to make that happen. In the meantime, our favorite electric mouse runs around scratching people and kick boxing until he can drop a thunderbolt on people with a mighty "Chu!"
So the way this works in WoF land is that he nominates one of his super powers to try to load during his recovery phase and rolls a die. That die will allow him to use his power next turn if he rolls high enough, but it also outputs a specific number which determines which of his normal mouse boxing maneuvers are available. So his recovery phase choice would be something along the lines of
Needless to say, this is expansible to other pokemon you might want to have. For example, let's look at the Corralax:
So the way this works in WoF land is that he nominates one of his super powers to try to load during his recovery phase and rolls a die. That die will allow him to use his power next turn if he rolls high enough, but it also outputs a specific number which determines which of his normal mouse boxing maneuvers are available. So his recovery phase choice would be something along the lines of
- Thunder Bolt: 5+
- Static Burst: 4+
- 1: Quick Attack, Grab, Push
2: Disarm, Body Slam, Shocking Grasp
3: Trip, Electric Zap, Fury Swipes
4: Quick Attack, Electric Zap, Shocking Grasp
5: Disarm, Grab, Fury Swipes
6: Trip, Body Slam, Push
Needless to say, this is expansible to other pokemon you might want to have. For example, let's look at the Corralax:
- Color Spray: 4+
- Prim Spray 6+
- Radiant Pulse: 5+
- 1: Quick Attack, Grab, Gust
2: Disarm, Swoop, Dazzle Flash
3: Trip, Boggle, Fury Swipes
4: Quick Attack, Boggle, Dazzle Flash
5: Disarm, Grab, Fury Swipes
6: Trip, Swoop, Gust
I understand the functions of the Winds of Fate rolls and how they roughly amount to a charge mechanic that frees players from having to actually having to track how far they charged their power. It's my understanding that making a character roll for their big attacks while assigning powers to specific numbers on the die they roll is a bit of sleight of hand on the GM's part. Without the promise of a big power to use, rolling for your power sets would just be a crapshoot whether you come out with useful abilities or not and it would feel like a mechanic that just forced variety rather than encouraged it.
Does it work as well if you just have it so that people can nominate one of their "special" powers, and if they roll exactly that number, they can use it, and if they don't they still have their regular powers? Rolling for a minimum seems like it would create a hierarchy for your character's specials, and if you didn't roll high enough you feel like a bitch. Also, there's a weird interaction with the powers assigned to your charge values. You might not want to use your special and it'd feel like a waste if you used one of your common, shameful powers.
Does it work as well if you just have it so that people can nominate one of their "special" powers, and if they roll exactly that number, they can use it, and if they don't they still have their regular powers? Rolling for a minimum seems like it would create a hierarchy for your character's specials, and if you didn't roll high enough you feel like a bitch. Also, there's a weird interaction with the powers assigned to your charge values. You might not want to use your special and it'd feel like a waste if you used one of your common, shameful powers.
Last edited by Artless on Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
I guess I didn't actually understand the WoF mechanic, but aren't the special abilities only activated on a minimum roll of whatever number their charge number is? In that Pikachu's actual power assortment would be:
Nevermind. Got it now. So each individual power has a charge number that, if you choose to charge and roll high enough, you can use it? Rolling a 5 when you picked Static Burst to charge still only lets you use Static Burst, and rolling a 4 when you picked Thunder Bolt does nothing. Right?
Maybe I'm misinterpreting your explanation, but I was thinking it might work like this as an alternative, simply because I don't want to ape everything from you:
- 1: Quick Attack, Grab, Push
2: Disarm, Body Slam, Shocking Grasp
3: Trip, Electric Zap, Fury Swipes
4: Quick Attack, Electric Zap, Shocking Grasp, Static Burst
5: Disarm, Grab, Fury Swipes, Static Burst, Thunder Bolt
6: Trip, Body Slam, Push, Static Burst, Thunder Bolt
Nevermind. Got it now. So each individual power has a charge number that, if you choose to charge and roll high enough, you can use it? Rolling a 5 when you picked Static Burst to charge still only lets you use Static Burst, and rolling a 4 when you picked Thunder Bolt does nothing. Right?
Maybe I'm misinterpreting your explanation, but I was thinking it might work like this as an alternative, simply because I don't want to ape everything from you:
- 1: Quick Attack, Grab, Push, Thunder Wave
2: Disarm, Body Slam, Shocking Grasp, Thunder Wave
3: Trip, Electric Zap, Fury Swipes, Static Burst
4: Quick Attack, Electric Zap, Shocking Grasp, Static Burst
5: Disarm, Grab, Fury Swipes, Thunder Bolt
6: Trip, Body Slam, Push, Thunder Bolt
Last edited by Artless on Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
That setup deprives you of the ability to have powers that are more or less likely to load, and it furthermore seems to fly in the face of having more than 3 loadable abilities. Certainly an advantage of just giving each power an arbitrary activation DC is that Pikachu can pick up a Focus Band or a Quick Claw and load up that use limited power instead.
-Username17
-Username17
-
CatharzGodfoot
- King
- Posts: 5668
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: North Carolina
True enough; if I must, I must.
Moving on. With a more solidified routine for the combat resource mechanics, it'll probably be good to re-address abilities and their purposes. It might be best to consider that, given the nature of the WoF roll, the class-specific abilties should be more focused and specific. Abilities needing only one Tagged attribute would be the things with a wider interpretation or a more generic description.
This way I can simplyify the functions of each delineation, and work from there. It'll be easier to think of powers, effects and the like if I compartmentalize each attribute's conceptual and mechanical space. The class descriptions and their supposed specializations were fluid anyway, so it doesn't really matter if they need to be changed once their roles are informed by the new definitions.
EDIT: Just realized all I did was say a painfully obvious assumption that most people probably would consider from the onset. To clarify: before, I was mixing in general mechanics into the class powers, not fully considering that I still had the single-tag powers to fill in. Now, what I'll do is work on defining the mechanical definitions of the single-tag powers, and then combine the definitions to get the dual-tag powers.
No longer a focus at this point.
Moving on. With a more solidified routine for the combat resource mechanics, it'll probably be good to re-address abilities and their purposes. It might be best to consider that, given the nature of the WoF roll, the class-specific abilties should be more focused and specific. Abilities needing only one Tagged attribute would be the things with a wider interpretation or a more generic description.
This way I can simplyify the functions of each delineation, and work from there. It'll be easier to think of powers, effects and the like if I compartmentalize each attribute's conceptual and mechanical space. The class descriptions and their supposed specializations were fluid anyway, so it doesn't really matter if they need to be changed once their roles are informed by the new definitions.
EDIT: Just realized all I did was say a painfully obvious assumption that most people probably would consider from the onset. To clarify: before, I was mixing in general mechanics into the class powers, not fully considering that I still had the single-tag powers to fill in. Now, what I'll do is work on defining the mechanical definitions of the single-tag powers, and then combine the definitions to get the dual-tag powers.
No longer a focus at this point.
Last edited by Artless on Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I’ve been agonizing over the game, and I’ve reworked some of the basic mechanics to something more my speed. I happen to dislike leveled systems, preferring skill-based or ability-based games, and it was causing problems for me conceptually. I’ve decided instead to create something that amounts to this:
Combat order is determined by abilities and an Initiative roll of [3d6 + Quickness or Cunning], with ties going to the player or character with the pointiest ears or highest Quickness, whichever.
As always, suggestions or critiques are greatly appreciated.
- 4 stats: Toughness, Quickness, Cunning, and Magic. 16 points between them; no two stats can be more than 3 apart at the start, keeping the greatest distance between two character’s stats at 4 points (since the lowest a stat could be is 2 and the highest 6, though not in the same array.)
- Tag two stats.“Tagging” a stat gives you access to abilities that use that stat. Some need more than one stat tagged.
- Rolls are resolved with [3d6 + stat], versus a target number, or versus [11 + stat] if appropriate (like in combat or opposed tests.) Ability entries will dictate what statistic they are opposed by.
- Abilities are “Tagged” as well, and are simply a group of non-combat and combat utilities that correspond to the theme of the ability.
- Movement is just that: moving your character. For grid combat, have each square or hex represent 2 meters square. For the default game, however, position and range will simply be arranged as distances in meters, followed by a scale of ranges: engaged, melee, near, far, and distant. One movement action pushes you up or down that scale.
This is done to allow for more descriptive representation, and so you don’t have to cart your minis all over the place any time you want to play. It will be difficult to keep track of each character's position relative to all others on paper (Bill is near to Jen but far from Alan and still yet engaged with the Bog Lurk,) so I'll have to work on that. I'd like to avoid too much CO adjudication or fiat. With the way it is now, each combatant would need their own logic-matrix to keep everything accurate, and that is not attractive. It'd be nice if the game didn't have absolute positioning, but it may have too. - An Active Action is the use of an ability’s functions like its combat effect or its charged effect.
- A Boon is something that occurs automatically, may persist for the round, and is sometimes incorporated into the entry for an ability a character has used. For example, the Boon of the Cunning ability Taunt will give a single target within range an ultimatum: attack the character that used Taunt, or suffer some negative effect. If a character is engaged, they cannot use their Boon.
Combat order is determined by abilities and an Initiative roll of [3d6 + Quickness or Cunning], with ties going to the player or character with the pointiest ears or highest Quickness, whichever.
Last edited by Artless on Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
JonSetanta
- King
- Posts: 5580
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: interbutts
Try designing a game without stats first.
Do the powers, the defenses, combat variables, everything.
... and then throw in the adjustable 'game benders' for PCs, those beloved little stat values.
You can then easily decide how far each stat pushes the numbers up and down, and which scale of stat development is needed.
Do the powers, the defenses, combat variables, everything.
... and then throw in the adjustable 'game benders' for PCs, those beloved little stat values.
You can then easily decide how far each stat pushes the numbers up and down, and which scale of stat development is needed.