[4e] Psion Preview

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:22 pm

Wonderful. A graph that I can't read despite my inclination not to do so.

Your arguments are made of AIDS and cancer.

I will give two reasons why you would want to use two 10 PP attacks instead of one 20 PP attack.

First of all, there's iterative probability. In terms of AOE damage--we'll just say we're doing damage because--you're doing 2(10d6+10) damage. By forcing two saves instead of one, the opponent is likely to make one save and fail another. You can either risk a single 20d6+20 blast and have him make the save, relegating your damage to 10d6+10, or you can spread out your damage in two bursts so that your opponent will only take half damage on a 10d6+10 blast (so 5d6+5) and full damage on another 10d6+10 blast. In the end, your damage output is 75% of what it would be otherwise.

Did you take longer to do the damage? Yes. Did you do less damage than if your opponent had failed his save on the 20d6+20 blast? Yes. But you also did 50% more damage than you would have done if he had made his save on the 20d6+20 blast.

You may then apply this principle to other psionic powers. (I bold this because you're undoubtedly going to go HAR HAR 5D6 DAMAGES LOL, which would be missing the goddamn point.)

Secondly, you can conserve your power points for later encounters. Holy shit, new concept there.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:35 am

First of all, there's iterative probability. In terms of AOE damage--we'll just say we're doing damage because--you're doing 2(10d6+10) damage. By forcing two saves instead of one, the opponent is likely to make one save and fail another. You can either risk a single 20d6+20 blast and have him make the save, relegating your damage to 10d6+10, or you can spread out your damage in two bursts so that your opponent will only take half damage on a 10d6+10 blast (so 5d6+5) and full damage on another 10d6+10 blast. In the end, your damage output is 75% of what it would be otherwise.

Let's try putting this another way.

Okay, say someone rolls a 1d4 for their to-hit roll. 1 and 2 are misses, 3 and 4 are hits. You have one guy who manifests a power at full-blast and does nothing the second round and the second guy manifests two half-power powers; one on the first round and one on the second round.

A full power blast does 10 damage, a half-power blast does 5 damage.

The full power-guy has a 50% chance of doing full damage the first round, which means that their average damage is 5 for the first round. The half-power guy also has a 50% chance of doing half damage the firt round, for an average of 2.5 damage. Then the half-power guy does it again the second round; they still average out to 2.5 damage for that round, for a total of 5 damage over 2 rounds.

Don't believe me? Okay, here's a chart of the half power guy's possible results over the two rounds.

Die Rolls / Total Damage over 2 rounds
1 1 - 0
1 2 - 0
1 3 - 5
1 4 - 5
2 1 - 0
2 2 - 0
2 3 - 5
2 4 - 5
3 1 - 5
3 2 - 5
3 3 - 10
3 4 - 10
4 1 - 5
4 2 - 5
4 3 - 10
4 4 - 10

The mean damage is 5.

Now here's one thing that some people might have missed; while the average damage is the same in the long run, the two-die guy has a much higher chance of scoring some damage. If the enemy will die after 5 hp of damage then they should go half-power.

Of course, then the question comes up why the first guy was manifesting a full-power power in the first place if that extra damage was going to be overkill. Which is an advantage of the two-die roll guy: if the 5-pp blast was able to kill them in the first round then they ended up using fewer PPs overall. if you don't know how many hit points the enemy has then you waste fewer PPs cherry-tapping them.

On the other hand, though, someone might notice that a critter that has 10 hit points will end up doing more damage to the cherry-tapper. For example, if the full-power guy shoots first, he has a 50% chance of avoiding all attacks whatsoever and a 50% chance of getting attacked twice. If the half-power guy shoots first, he has a 0% chance of avoiding all attacks, a 75% chance of getting attacked once and a 25% chance of getting attacked twice. If you don't know how many hit points the enemy has you take fewer hits full-blasting them.

The question then comes up which strategy is optimal for Dungeons and Dragons. This is an exercise left up to the reader, but I'm inclined to say that blasting at full-power is better if you don't know how much punishment they can take. Why?

Because mid and high-level 2nd and 3rd-Edition D&D is rocket-launcher tag, that's why. If you don't take out your foes right away, there is a very high chance that you might be facing a disguised Medusa or Blackstone Gigant or Troll Frenzied Berserker whatever will fucking kill you and your buddies before you even get to your second round. Guess how many PPs you burn if you're taken out of the fight? None, and you know why? Because you can't manifest or cast or attack shit when you're dead.

If you're playing 4th Edition, however, then you can cherry tap them at higher levels. The amount of hit points a critter has follows a very predictable formula and the consequence for getting hit are much less serious in this edition, especially at higher levels when you get a hit point cushion and ways to negate bad effects.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:26 am

Okay, now we're talking about something we can agree upon. RLT encourages blowing through PP to protect the other party members. However, RLT also encourages the 15-minute workday in general, so there are two ways to approach manifesting powers:

1. Shoot rockets and hope to avoid them.
2. Conserve PP until you need to use rockets.

Generally, I will do everything in my power (as a character) to avoid the 15-minute workday because I find it boring, anti-climatic, and completely unrealistic.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:39 am

Rocket Launcher Tag doesn't encourage the 15-minute workday. The Vancian and Psionic spellcasting engine doesn't encourage the 15-minute workday either. That's a feature of the particular resource management system D&D uses.

If you gave everyone a small pool of spells or power points but had it refresh after every encounter, it would eliminate the 15-minute workday without getting rid of RLT or the Vancian/Psionic system. But you would see the way the characters used their spells/powers in an encounter would still follow the same overall pattern as before.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:47 am

Isn't the resource management system directly tied to Vancian/psionics?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:54 am

Partly. But you're talking about the schedule of getting your stuff back, which can be anything from 'you get your powers back when you get hit', 'every round you have a random chance of getting a spell', 'you take a 5 minute rest', 'you have to use lower level spells first', 'you have to wait until the battlefield has the necrotic and water tags' or 'you take an 8 hour rest'.

The 15-minute workday BS is based off of the 8-hour rest canard. If you used the other systems you could still have a Vancian/Psionic system while also not having to rest every combat.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:41 am

That would be a decent solution.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:51 am

Wait. Wait.

Wait.

We can finally get along again?

Woohoo!

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:22 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Okay, say someone rolls a 1d4 for their to-hit roll. 1 and 2 are misses, 3 and 4 are hits. You have one guy who manifests a power at full-blast and does nothing the second round and the second guy manifests two half-power powers; one on the first round and one on the second round.

Its important to remember that augmenting increases your DC as well as the damage. Two 5d6 DC 15 powers averages less damage than one 10d6 DC 17 power. You're better off with the augment even before considering reduction in enemy offense or death spirals.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:54 am

It's not that easy, NiN. As long as people promote a bad mechanic and can't offer a better defense than 'b-but I like it this way', there will never be peace.

Not here there won't.

Now, that said, even if we get rid of the 15-minute workday but keep everything else, psionics will still keep the same 'spam the same power repeatedly FTW' paradigm that I was bitching about it.

It's just that now they sputter out repeatedly near the end of the encounter rather than occasionally getting lucky and having the workday end before they run out of juice or get unlucky and have four more encounters to go. Now while this is more fair than before to everyone involved, it still doesn't do jack shit for variety.

Going back to the cherry-tap vs. nova guy, one key point that the analysis is missing is that the nova guy can still fall back to secondary attack modes. I had them in the secondary round doing nothing, which is just dumb; they could be activating bullshit from their pet rocks or firing a crossbow. Getting rid of the 15-minute workday doesn't change the underlying problem with the system.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:07 am

Smart Wizards will likely use the same spells for combat every day. At least if you have them limited to PHB spell selection. I'm not sure how this is different from the Psion picking the power he thinks will win easiest and mashing it at full power.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:25 am

Akula wrote:Smart Wizards will likely use the same spells for combat every day. At least if you have them limited to PHB spell selection. I'm not sure how this is different from the Psion picking the power he thinks will win easiest and mashing it at full power.

Because the smart wizard also has lower level utility and niche spells. For example, aside from my fourth level slots, my seventh level wizard typically has prepared:

3) Some haste, GMW, Slow, Dispel Magic
2) Scorching ray, glitterdust
1) Benign Transposition, feather fall

A psion who uses all his top level slots doesn't have that stuff to fall back on. A wizard has a gradual drop in power if he's just casting his top level slots each round. The psion doesn't.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:54 am

I'm finding it difficult to say what I want to in a saticefactory manner.

I'm not denying that the Psion is an idiot if he doesn't always heighten his glitterdust equivalent. I'm not denying that this makes him sort of uninteresting. But any caster is going to use the measures that they think will solve the situation fastest and cheapest, this means that the 3rd level Wizard will use Glitterdust and Web almost every day. So will the 5th level Wizard, he will also likely have a few of the "best" 3rd level offensive spells that will get used repeatedly.

What I'm trying to say is, "Does the Psion use the same powers over and over again more than another caster? Don't they all use the best of one level of spells and then go on to use the best of another when they get access? So aside from the Psion being best when they always go all out on their "best spell for the situation" (which could be a number of powers) does the Psion really use the same things any less than a Sorcerer? Or a slightly unimaginative Wizard?"

I get that the Psion having nothing but max level spell slots is a problem, but do they really have to use the same attack more than other casters?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:59 am

What I'm trying to say is, "Does the Psion use the same powers over and over again more than another caster? Don't they all use the best of one level of spells and then go on to use the best of another when they get access? So aside from the Psion being best when they always go all out on their "best spell for the situation" (which could be a number of powers) does the Psion really use the same things any less than a Sorcerer? Or a slightly unimaginative Wizard?"

Yes. We hate the Five Moves of Doom bullshit, too and it's a major weakness with the wizard class. That's a major problem why 4th Edition is so repetitive; use one or two of your rationed daily attack powers then blow through your encounter powers in order of highest level to lowest level. Then spam your At-Will. Low level Vancian spellcasting by no small coincidence resembles that pattern a lot--until high level, that is, but that's when people complain that the wizard starts making people superfluous.

I really think we either need to a robust and dynamic toolbox system or Winds of Fate.

However, I will always prefer to see FMoD over One Move of doom. Vancian spellcasting sucks, especially with jackasses like the sorcerer, but we're talking Vance vs. Psion.

I get that the Psion having nothing but max level spell slots is a problem, but do they really have to use the same attack more than other casters?

They can use their power pool for lower-level powers to fuel their higher-level ones. Unless they're buffing, doing something with Astral Construct, or already know the enemies' saving throws/hit points (so then they do algebra to determine what's the optimal save DC/pp ratio, which will usually end with them pumping the hell out of the power anyway), why wouldn't they?

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:15 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Yes. We hate the Five Moves of Doom bullshit, too and it's a major weakness with the wizard class. That's a major problem why 4th Edition is so repetitive; use one or two of your rationed daily attack powers then blow through your encounter powers in order of highest level to lowest level. Then spam your At-Will. Low level Vancian spellcasting by no small coincidence resembles that pattern a lot--until high level, that is, but that's when people complain that the wizard starts making people superfluous.

I really think we either need to a robust and dynamic toolbox system or Winds of Fate.

I'm not arguing with any of that.

However, I will always prefer to see FMoD over One Move of doom. Vancian spellcasting sucks, especially with jackasses like the sorcerer, but we're talking Vance vs. Psion.

Again this is understandable, but the Psion is a FMoD class, almost literally. They are likely to have Astral Construct, Ego Whip, [insert fort save or lose power here], and a couple of other options. They will use the option that they have that is best for the situation. They might then use another effect that will help, or they might use the first effect again. Is that different from a Sorcerer?

They can use their power pool for lower-level powers to fuel their higher-level ones. Unless they're buffing, doing something with Astral Construct, or already know the enemies' saving throws/hit points (so then they do algebra to determine what's the optimal save DC/pp ratio, which will usually end with them pumping the hell out of the power anyway), why wouldn't they?

Of course they always augment to max! Without a complicated analysis of where they start to get diminishing returns for the PP (and the answer is likely "never" as you said) then that is the best tacit. But this doesn't mean that they always use the same power with maximum augment. They have options at least.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:22 am

Akula wrote:Again this is understandable, but the Psion is a FMoD class, almost literally. They are likely to have Astral Construct, Ego Whip, [insert fort save or lose power here], and a couple of other options. They will use the option that they have that is best for the situation. They might then use another effect that will help, or they might use the first effect again. Is that different from a Sorcerer?

Sorcerers also have buffs. If you're throwing buffs into the mix then the Sorcerer responds with polymorph and overland flight and whatever bullshit game effects you want.

But when you take all of the buffs out of the equation on both sides, the pattern still remains; when the actual ass-kicking commences the psion uses the same small pool of powers over and over while the sorcerer is forced to downgrade.

Speaking of which, what's with you guys and the sorcerer? The sorcerer sucks and is boring. Do you really think it helps the psionicist apologetics to keep bringing up the sorcerer strawman when most Vancian spellcasters don't use the sorcerer mechanics?

But this doesn't mean that they always use the same power with maximum augment. They have options at least.

Not when they have crazy hook-up powers like Ego Whip. Unless you were hulking out or preparing a teleport ambush, why would you use something else?

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:49 am

I didn't think that either Astral Construct or Ego Whip was a buff spell.

As to why not use Ego whip: because it's kinda mind effecting.

As many Vancian spellcasters use Sorcerer mechanics as Wizard preparation. The Beguiler is a class that is both good and uses Sorcerer mechanics. And what is this Sorcerer strawman? I'm just saying that functionally all casters will use the best two or three offensive powers of their three highest spell levels. The way things have worked out just have things like Solid Fog being better than other options. Yes the Wizard is awesome and better than any other class. It has more options than any other class. Just as an argument about the Sorcerer can be refuted by saying that Sorcerers suck, am argument about the Wizard can be refuted by: The Wizard is the most diverse and consistently excellent class in the game, only two other classes come close. If being you won't accept anything less than a Wizard then you will be disappointed by a whole lot of classes that are interesting in their own right.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:01 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Sorcerers also have buffs. If you're throwing buffs into the mix then the Sorcerer responds with polymorph and overland flight and whatever bullshit game effects you want.

FYI: Most of the short duration psionic buffs that people actually use don't require augmentation. Metamorphosis, for instance, doesn't even have an augment at all. The long duration ones, like inertial armor and the psionic equivalent of (greater) magic weapon do require augmentation, but since they're out of combat actions, I don't really see the problem (aside from balance concerns about whether it is more appropriate to spend a 3rd level or 9th level slot for a +5 weapon).

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:20 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Speaking of which, what's with you guys and the sorcerer? The sorcerer sucks and is boring. Do you really think it helps the psionicist apologetics to keep bringing up the sorcerer strawman when most Vancian spellcasters don't use the sorcerer mechanics?

I make that comparison because a psion is basically a sorcerer. A psion who uses all his power points for augmented energy ray over and over again is basically a sorcerer who uses all his spell slots for metamagicked scorching ray over and over again (namely, a moron).

If you want to argue that spontaneous casting from a small set of spells/powers is lame, that's one thing; I'm sympathetic to that point of view. But saying "OMG PSION NOVA SPAM" is just plain retarded.