What are you supposed to do?

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dbb
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Re: What are you supposed to do?

Post by dbb »

If all you need is short-term flight, the old Joshian standby of having Small characters who ride around on their familiars after casting Reduce Person is probably fine. Reduce Person doesn't last very long, but it probably lasts long enough to get where you're going. Maybe keep a Rod of Extend Spell around just in case.

That does leave out the characters who aren't small, unfortunately. For them I can only recommend that you keep someone with a flying animal companion handy, as the whole non-small portion of the party will probably fit on one flyer after they get their doses of Reduce. Or just have someone learn Fly, I guess -- if I remember right you start at 5th level, so that should be OK.

I'm going to take a wild guess that Alter Selfing into non-core monsters in order to fly is also right out, which is a shame, since I don't think there are any Core humanoids with flight. Maybe you can convince the DM that using the Mephling from Planar Handbook or the Raptorans from Races of the Wild is OK, I don't know (although in both cases the amount of flight they get is kind of ass). This assumes that Alter Self isn't banned outright. :rolleyes:

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erik
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Re: What are you supposed to do?

Post by erik »

Yah, short term flight it a lot easier to come by than long term flight. If someone were to bite a bullet and play a pre-Arcane Heirophant, then you could have a huge Dire Bat (Enlarge Person/share spell it)... not really worth it I think.

Alter Self is available, but only forms in the monster manual. So no flight that way.
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Re: What are you supposed to do?

Post by dbb »

Depending on how strong your rules-fu is, you may be able to convince your GM that a Druid wildshaped into a Medium flying animal (if there is one, I haven't checked) retains the Augmented Humanoid subtype and therefore is still a legal target for Enlarge Person, which could get you a Large flying creature for cheap.

On the other hand, if you have a druid, I think the Dire Bat animal companion is sounding like a good solution. Maybe go with a Gnome druid for small size and an attribute penalty you don't really care about. The more of the rest of your party you can convince to be Halflings or Gnomes out of the box, the better. A Dire Bat can carry 170 pounds or so, 300 if you decide to drop a Bull's Strength on it, so you may even be able to get some Medium characters to ride if they cut down on equipment. Remember, too, that female characters of any race have a base weight lower than males (up to 35 pounds less for humans), so a "Girls' Night Out" aesthetic will pay dividends here. Good luck selling that one in Living Greyhawk, though.

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erik
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Re: What are you supposed to do?

Post by erik »

dbb at [unixtime wrote:1145896355[/unixtime]]
so a "Girls' Night Out" aesthetic will pay dividends here. Good luck selling that one in Living Greyhawk, though.


Oh, it happens in LG.

I've heard of one gal who plays a human female (with near minimum weight) cavalry who rides a direbat and uses a lance, doing insane damage akin to my halfling cavalry. And my wife played with a male human druid who rode his dire bat at gencon. While those two aren't gender bending for gain, I'm sure it does go on.

Some people will play gender benders, others won't. I don't mind 'em, personally.

For any melee tank types, I think a medium character would fare best. A Wood Elf 3 Ranger/2 Barbarian/X Wildrunner would fill the nature warrior slot handily. Sad thing is that I doubt I will find a group of players who share my exact vision of what they should be playing, heh. Cruel world this is.

One upside is that an (almost) all-small party probably won't be as painful for the actual module, since I don't think they'll restrict the sizes on captured loot to medium or small in LG. That's something at least.

It will be something of a crapshoot whether there is lengthy aerial travel needed to avoid ridiculous encounters. Depends upon where they want to begin mods from. They might have you begin at the town every time (since the notion is that you have to form a party for every game, and the party members likely might not be the same), and have you hoof it to whatever perilous location is next on the docket.

It the most major uses of flight are under 5 minutes long and tactically conspicuous (like not entering the castle the way they expect), then I think I'll be good to go with a quasi-balanced sneaky party.
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Re: LG RHoD in review

Post by erik »

Well shit, it's been forever since this thread was bandied about. I've been avoiding this thread since last post, since I learned my group in LG would start playing it at the end of 2006. I figure it's safe for me to return here since we just finished part 4 last weekend (the mod is broken into 5 parts for LG). We're going at a pace of about 1 session every 2 or 3 months or so due to horribly conflicting schedules. There may be no people on the planet who are taking longer with this damn adventure than my amigos and I.

The mod is much less hardcore than intended for LG since the adventure adaptation starts with average party level 6 instead of 4. So I actually did get to bring my dire bat riding druid with a fighter level full of lancing spirited charge goodness.

The party at onset:
* 6 Druid/1 Fighter, deep halfling direbat riding cavalry (me)
* 4 Cleric (war/sun), human bound for Radiant Servant and melee capable (my wife)
* 3 Barbarian/4 Fighter, half orc brute
* 1 Barbarian/1 Fighter/3 Wizard, human archer type with ray spells and a bow
* 5 Wizard, deep halfling buffer
* 4 Rogue/2 Fighter halfling, ranged sneak attacker who has no weapon finesse, no strength, and no means of actually pulling off a ranged sneak attack... deals 3 damage per round usually. Formerly Master Thrower, but died some and is taking another path now.


We haven't been particularly sneaky. Our major source of consternation for DMs was sending an earth elemental companion (via bonded summoner) in to scout wherever and generally buff it all to hell to soften up enemies before we come in. We have gone through 3 DMs already. Our first DM was familiar with my spirited charger and said he'd quit if I killed everything too easily since he wouldn't enjoy that, so I spent much of the time dismounted and letting others do the work. Oy. I still wound up doing more than my fair share of lancing the shit out of dragons, giants and big threats when things look serious.

We were handicapped a bit at the start since our level 4 cleric with 2 ranks in diplomacy and a 12 charisma was our main diplomancer, and that was mostly due to my character buying her a circlet of persuasion before the start of the adventure. Also whenever our half-orc opens his mouth we also wind up getting -2 or worse to all our diplomacy checks. And that would be just about every damn time. We got by for most of the first part via use of divine spell power+divine insight for important diplomacy checks. Of course early into the adventure both divine spellpower and divine insight were banned in LG, which kicked us squarely in the cooter for diplomacy. Hard.

I'll post my hazily remembered recaps of encounters later.


Our party as it stands going into the last part (we just finished the big battle in Brindol... town name may be messed up since names got changed for the LG adaptation):

8 Drd/1 Ftr
6 Clr/1 Radiant Servant
3 Barb/5 Ftr
1 Barb/1 Ftr/4 Wiz/2 Spellsword
5 Wiz/3 Bonded Summoner (earth)
? Rog/Ftr ... I really can't tell how many levels of rogue since I never see a sneak attack. *sigh* I like the player, but the character isn't pulling any weight.

Some folks are outpacing my character since I have a 20% exp/gold penalty for multiclassing and they've also played other mods in the middle of this one... a prospect I'm considering before we play next time since I just discovered I can only craft like one crappy item per adventure and I'm pissed since I've been saving a shit load of gold to craft stuff since I finally got craft wonderous item at level 9.


My observations at large so far are:
* being sneaky wasn't that important so long as we had one good scout in this case the earth elemental, and prior to that an eagle familiar, with chain of eyes cast upon both
* my poor wife's cleric initially never got to do much thanks to her 20' move speed. I have now given her a 1/day expeditious retreat item, and she has divine vigor which gets popped at the start of every battle, and we bamf her around with benign transposition... so she's finally seeing some action
* the earth elemental companion is unfiggity fair. I'm a little bitter since I had a deep halfling wizard all lined up and this guy found access to bonded sum before I did and he also gets to play more often than I do, so he kinda stole my thunder. Upside is that I get to see my idea in practice and it does rock, and it takes DM attention off of my charger and places it squarely on the elemental.
* laying down spike stones in front of a barricade which is bound to be assaulted by tons of troops is hilarious
* I hated the ninja so bad I arc lightning'd myself in order to hurt him (for lack of any other targets)
* a party of druids would own this adventure series so hard (shocking, I know)
* our players started out extremely dysfunctional, and are only now finally geling
* don't expect gratitude from the party when your windwall prevents their score of archers from exchanging fire with us and our 1 archer (I was blindsided by the bitching I received for that!)
* all 3 DMs have fixated on that half of our party is halflings
* fvcking ninja


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JonSetanta
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Re: LG RHoD in review

Post by JonSetanta »

Pshhh sneaky.. you just need bigger explosions.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I ran it for two PCs, plus a cohort and whoever they could bully into serving them.

There was a beguiler, a barbarian, and a cohort healer with the Wow of Peace/Vow of Nonviolence feats that basicalyl follwed the party around and healed them.

They got to the last arc of the adventure and ended with a TPK because:
They were unable to stop 2 of the dragons from fleeing the adventure. So, they fought the blue dragon that they were supposed to, plus the black and the green dragon. The little ones dropped rather quickly, but for whatever reason the Barbarian tried to use Leap Attack. While the dragon was about 10' away from a 20 foot cliff. He took 20d6 damage from the fall, climbed back up, then got bull-rushed back off the cliff. The Beguiler was no match for the dragon by himelf. A shame, they had used pretty good tactics up to that point. they made good use of silence+invisibility for stealth purposes. Their experiences were very similar to Frank's, but for whatever reason one of my players never takes prisoners. Ever. He doesn't accept surrender for any reason.
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Post by Roy »

What I want to know is why the fucking fuckity fuck is it that so many of the Den's alleged finest are having a hard time with RHoD? About the only part of the difficulty complaints that's accurate is the fake difficulty bit, where time schedule + long campaign level span wise + shops not having proper upgrades + most stuff you find being gold fodder only means you will most likely have outdated equipment by the end unless specifically rewritten to fix that.

Almost everything you fight is a mook. The first 80% is really fucking heavy on warrior 2s for fuck's sake. The last 20% replaces them with some level 4 monsters that have most of the same failings as humanoid beatsticks anyways. And when you do fight an actual threat, they often spend most of their time fucking around with shit like summoning hell hounds, or casting lightning bolt.

Even the few dragons lose hard because it's trivially easy to know what you'll fight before you fight it, and of course they're color coded for your convenience.

First one is a Young Green. Its breath is 6d6, DC 17. Which means you look at it from hundreds of feet away from behind trees. You see it, it doesn't see you. It can't hear you either, because of the -30 or so. You cast Resist Energy (acid). It now does trivial damage if you fail the save and most likely none of you pass. Proceed to auto attack through the 93 HP, 20 AC, no casting enemy in short order. Or you can just Web or Glitterdust or something.

Even if it gets replaced by the level 8 model to be Large, it's not that much harder. Maybe you need a Ray of Enfeeblement somewhere in there.

The black one is a bit better off because you can swim. But you're also most likely 7 by then. Flight = not so hard.

Seriously, I've seen players completely fucking new to D&D fucking own this module hardcore. Which makes the fact supposed experts are complaining about the difficulty highly fucking offensive. Granted, Rogues suck a barrel of cocks in that adventure, so Frank's complaints might be justified. But still. What the fuckity fuckstar?

Or how about this?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2838

These guys were EXTREMELY suboptimal for the first half of the campaign. We're talking blasting wizards, CW Samurai Sundertards, and healbots bad. They got better later on, but were still nowhere near strong characters. According to the wizard I talked to, it was at least semi deliberate. Regardless, and in spite of the fact the DM started buffing up everything especially later on (justified, given the number of terrible builds for the NPCs) and I do mean everything, including the dragons they still had very little problem with it. There were not many deaths, and most of the ones that did occur were to mooks, to remove the characters of players that quit from the campaign, or both. Which means even weaksauce like Rangers and Barbarians was mostly doing ok, and the real characters weren't even threatened until the finale when they got attacked by level 16 dragon pussy or whatever.

So to all the people complaining about the difficulty, what the fuck are you whining about?
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Post by NineInchNall »

I went through the campaign with my friend JanusJones from the WotC boards. We were the only PCs, so we started at level 6 rather than level 5. I had a Beguiler with Mindsight, Combat Charm, & Faerie Mysteries Initiate and he had a Wizard with Born of the Three Thunders & Mark of the Dauntless.

It was ... a joke. We stealthed our way around, recruited enemies with diplomancy, and laid down huge areas of damaging battlefield control.
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Post by erik »

Roy wrote:What I want to know is why the fucking fuckity fuck is it that so many of the Den's alleged finest are having a hard time with RHoD?

...

Or how about this?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2838
It greatly depends upon what level your party starts the campaign. The module suggests you start out with level 4 players and that is much harder than the level 6 average that was suggested by living greyhawk, so I got to cakewalk most encounters with a sprited charge druid combined with a pimped out earth elemental bonded summoner. The other 4 characters were mostly fodder. If we hadn't had the two optimized characters, then I imagine things would have been rougher and TPKs would have ensued.

About that link, care to directly link actual game reports? I'm not terribly inclined to delve through thousands of posts to find the golden nuggets you refer to.
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Post by hogarth »

clikml wrote: It greatly depends upon what level your party starts the campaign.
Not to mention:
-it depends on the composition of the party
-it depends on how bad-ass the DM is
-it depends on how bad-ass the players are
-it depends on what books you're using
-it depends on how closely you follow the adventure
-it depends on the phase of the moon
-etc.
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Post by Roy »

clikml wrote:
Roy wrote:What I want to know is why the fucking fuckity fuck is it that so many of the Den's alleged finest are having a hard time with RHoD?

...

Or how about this?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2838
It greatly depends upon what level your party starts the campaign. The module suggests you start out with level 4 players and that is much harder than the level 6 average that was suggested by living greyhawk, so I got to cakewalk most encounters with a sprited charge druid combined with a pimped out earth elemental bonded summoner. The other 4 characters were mostly fodder. If we hadn't had the two optimized characters, then I imagine things would have been rougher and TPKs would have ensued.

About that link, care to directly link actual game reports? I'm not terribly inclined to delve through thousands of posts to find the golden nuggets you refer to.
Not my game.

And the module suggests 5 and 6 in different places. Regardless, the first encounter is filled with mooks, the second is more mooks and comes three rounds later, the hydra is slow and therefore kiting bait and 6 headed hydras aren't that tough (they get better later) in any case as long as you remember that Sundertarding is made of Fail and the only two fights that could actually be called difficult in the first act are solved by not making too much noise (storming the keep, it takes the other guys several rounds to get ready so as long as you don't alert them until the last second you're fine) and by not leaving the damn forest (you can see the bridge with dragon from here, but they can't see you. You might need to nova the bridge, but they don't have patrols or anything and even if they did, Rope Trick for the win).

As for stuff I've had a part in, I've seen an Evoker and a Pouncer fucking duo the first act with such trivial ease I pretty much looked ahead, realized it doesn't get any harder, and called good game.

I've seen another group half filled with complete newbies fucking slaughter it despite terrible tactics with no losses. And they were mostly just auto attacking off bard song, with the odd buff thrown in.

I've seen another group that contained a fleskraker druid. Suffice it to say, they also slaughtered everything. It doesn't even fucking matter what the rest of them were.

For the hell of it, I made a single character and ran it against myself. Owned everything till I got bored of the simulation.

Yeah, it will probably slaughter beatsticks because beatsticks suck, especially with outdated equipment. But real characters will have a trivially easy time with it.
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Post by NineInchNall »

You forgot to mention that it depends on whether you've had guacamole within three weeks of playing the mod.
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