4uccsess!

[Maxus]

Well, as I understand, taking so many abilities will earn you some bonuses/extras related to those abilities. So take a bunch of weapon abilities and you become a warrior and pick up some bonus HP and armor proficiency or something. Take a bunch of stealth (or something)-related powers to become a ninja.

Edit: Hit the wrong button too soon.

So you'd want the packages to be based on certain tags. Maybe even combinations of tags. And have advanced packages people can pick up.

Take some weapon and some magic abilities, and pretty soon you've picked up Warrior and Wizard, and then become Eldritch Knight.

Take a lot of warrior and tactical and stuff and then you end up with something like:

Battle God
He kills all who are in his way. He is beyond beast or man. He can only be called a god.

(A title from Tales of Symphonia, for Kratos Aurion)

Edit Edit: And some sort of bonus/ability awesome enough to fit the flavor text.

[Meikle641]

No stat can be used to solve a puzzle.

The players have to solve puzzles on their own.

Fuck that noise. You seriously want parties to keep getting fucked over and having to stop simply because their PLAYERS can't figure out a puzzle?

That's horseshit, pal. If I'm playing some wise or super smart character, there should be an actual benefit if we're all stumped out of character. I don't need to chase a player to do a chase scene, so why this?

[Judging__Eagle]

Ugh, my computer crashed while writing a response, it's basically this:

Classes: No

You're your abilities. They define what you can or can't do. "Maybe" there will be later abilities with pre-requisites.

Elements....

This is my idea, we do them all deal [Fire] damage, but the tag looks like this:

Blast Barrage
Dakka Dakka Dakka Dakka!

[Blast ([Element]), {Item/Weapon/None} , Offense +2/+0]

Choose an Element, your Blast deals damage of that type, and your Blast Ability is an ability of that type.

If this Ability is the result of an Item or Weapon; it gains that tag, and you may use the special options for this ability.

Common - You create a single 5' Radius blast, Long Range
-Special: You can Fire One extra Blast per [5] Character Levels

Special - You can create a 5' Radius blast per Character Level; Medium Range.
-Special You may instead create a 20' Radius Blast per [5] Character levels

Super - You can create a number of 5' Radius blasts equal to the number of enemies within Close range. You may place the blasts wherever you want within Close range.
-Special: You may create a 90' Cone that deals Damage

----------

I'm thinking that each level gives 1-2 new abilities to a character, but 1 per level is probably fine.

[RandomCasualty2]

Fuck that noise. You seriously want parties to keep getting fucked over and having to stop simply because their PLAYERS can't figure out a puzzle?

That's horseshit, pal. If I'm playing some wise or super smart character, there should be an actual benefit if we're all stumped out of character.

No there doesn't. Because we all know that having no player involvement and just saying "My character does it" is boring. 4E tried that with skill challenges, and while it may appease the simulationist in you, it's bad for the game as a whole when you take the player out of it and just put your character on autopilot. I'm sick and tired of the "I don't have to think because my character is smart" argument. Fuck that. This is a game, and yes you're going to have to think. I don't even think there should be an intelligence stat in the game at all, exactly for the reason that it breeds that lazy gamer attitude. If you want to watch a protagonist autopilot through a story and solve all the puzzles while you sit on the couch, then here's an idea: Go rent a movie.

This is a game, and as such it has meaningful player decisions. If it didn't, it would suck. Just see 4E skill challenges for why this is so. And having meaningful difficult decisions means that sometimes, you'll make the wrong choice, and you will pay for it.

Now that's not to say that an inability to solve a puzzle should be an autoloss, but it should definitely have some consequences. Having some kind of System shock style puzzle is good because it involves everyone, and isn't just a matter of mindlessly rolling dice.

The lazy gamer attitude does nothing useful for the game.

[angelfromanotherpin]

If you want to watch a protagonist autopilot through a story and solve all the puzzles while you sit on the couch, then here's an idea: Go rent a movie.

If you want to come up with brain-teasers and inflict them on people, here's an idea: write Facebook quizzes.

[Mask_De_H]

Okay, cool. So, for example, we have a [Melee] tag, a [Range] tag, a [Stealth] tag, and a [Magic] tag.

If you get say, 4 ability slots at start, 2 [Melee] gets you Warrior, 2 [Range] gets you Archer, 2 [Stealth] gets you Rogue, and 2 [Magic] gets you Mage.

Second tier: Warrior/Mage = Eldrich Knight, Warrior/Rogue = Thug, Warrior/Archer = Sniper, Warrior/Warrior = Facekicker

What are we going to do about stats? I'm thinking axe Charisma and Constitution, and then have scores equal modifiers.

[IGTN]

Puzzles: If you have both puzzles and puzzle-solving characters (smart or whatever), then you could, for example, design puzzles with additional clues for people who make their INT rolls. You don't have autopilot, but the archmage isn't stumped by a dumb player.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Why aren't attributes just tags? And why have tags be boring things like 'melee' (after all, that's just a range) and 'stealth' rather than cool stuff like 'dueling' and 'shadow'?

[RandomCasualty2]

Puzzles: If you have both puzzles and puzzle-solving characters (smart or whatever), then you could, for example, design puzzles with additional clues for people who make their INT rolls. You don't have autopilot, but the archmage isn't stumped by a dumb player.

Yeah, you can have various bonuses for people who have different abilities, in much the same way combat abilities work. But under no circumstances should any ability automatically solve a puzzle.

Benefits like :
-more time to solve a puzzle
-Ability to check a certain number of times if your answer is correct before submitting it in game.
-Additional tries to solve a puzzle
-A clue to a riddle or a starting point to a puzzle

And similar are okay however.

[Judging__Eagle]

Nah, no Magic tags.

Here are some tag ideas that I had

Melee
Ranged
Movement
Repair
Creation/Summoning
Control

Stealth should be something that people do, not something special that they are.

Abilities are things that you can do that are above and beyond what others can do.

There could be abilities with multiple applications, such as stealth, but straight out stealth abilities aren't that good imo.

I want people using Alchemist's firebombs just as much as I want them throwing Fireballs. I want them to both the same ability mechanic.

What I think we should do is to have a few rigid mechanical abilities, with many possible loose flavour descriptions.

A Blast Barrage is a bunch of firebolts; or an Ork Flash Git firing his kustom shoota like a fiend. It's a single long range blast, or more blasts the closer in you get.

A Desctructive Blast is either a satchel charge of Hi-Ex, or a Fireball, or a grenade, or a magic skull that explodes on impact. It's a single large blast that hurts people, and is either wider or you fire more as you move up the Common-Special-Super power scale.

A Disgusting Blast is a Radiation Bomb, or a rotten zombie that bursts and splatters guts and flies everywhere; or an effect similar to Evard's Black tentacles. The effect deals no real damage, but it's bad juju to be in the area, eventually the area begins to chase your enemies.

People pick the elements that they want their [Elemental] abilities to have, and then later on we can write up some [Elemental] abilities that require a character to have 1-5 abilites with the same Elemental type.

So, flame-thrower nova, or ice-nova are the same ability; and the same mechanical effect. It's just that the flavour for them is different.


The reason that I don't want hundreds of different abilities is that people playing the game need to seriously be able to look at all the options and pick stuff they want.

There can seriously be 100 or 200 abilities total, and the game would be fine.

right now, I'm thinking 2 abilities at level 1; and each level you gain a new Ability.

The amount of damage you can take.... is based on your total abilities. Your abilities act like wound levels... or something.

Right now this is all very sketchy, but one analogy is that I want to bring the RoW approach to D&D's Feats to the 4E Abilties system.

I want less abilities total, that all scale, and are effective. However they can be painted any colour, and everyone has access to them. Since there are no classes.

No classes guys. Just abilities.

The most destructive black mage can also be one of the two people with the "Ressurect" ability. The Barbarian could seriously be the only one with "Build Machines" ability, and he rides around in a custom chariot with steam-powered goats charging him into battle. When the group needs a bridge, he can oversee it's contruction in a cool montage. When a friendly king dies, the Black Mage brings him back from the dead.

I want to break away from stereotypes because they make for less interesting character options.

[RandomCasualty2]

A Desctructive Blast is either a satchel charge of Hi-Ex, or a Fireball, or a grenade, or a magic skull that explodes on impact. It's a single large blast that hurts people, and is either wider or you fire more as you move up the Common-Special-Super power scale.

I'm thinking the main thing you may want to set up is having different equipment levels for using each ability.

Like for instance, a fireball that you can cast without any equipment should be weaker than a firebomb that you can possibly run out of (or have stolen from you or confiscated in civilized areas). I'm thinking you'd probably want to have some kind of equipment tag or restriction that gives a bonus to damage or something like that. So a wizard can choose to require a wand to shoot his fireballs (in which case it deals more damage). Some concepts, like an alchemist tossing firebombs may require that you take the equipment tag. But in any case, the mechanics would be the same.

You may want some power source tags like [arcane] [divine] [electronics] etc. Just for purposes of setting up counter abilities.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'm assuming that the character has "enough" firebombs for the adventure. Or grenades, w/e.

Power source tags are an idea.

So many Tags though. D:

[RandomCasualty2]

I'm assuming that the character has "enough" firebombs for the adventure. Or grenades, w/e.

Yeah you probably don't want to get into consumables per se (that should really just be part of the abilities natural resource mechanic, at-will, daily or whatever). But you probably do want to note when an ability is equipment based specifically for points where weapons might be confiscated, or restricted.

Part of the awesome thing of having Killing hands in shadowrun is that it appears you're unarmed, and so you can look non-threatening. The guards probably aren't going to let an experienced group of warriors go see the king without securing their weapons, wands, firebombs, etc. first. But the guy who can cast spells without any of that, or the monk who fights well with bare fists, has an advantage there in that he can still be at full strength even if he loses his gear, where as the sword master can't access some of his attacks.

Now how exactly you want to handle that advantage, I'm not sure. It's possible you could just try to balance it out by having the equipment based guy simply able to get magic equipment, where the nonequipment guy can't get a magic wand or sword to enhance his attacks.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well...

I'm thinking that there will be no magic weapons. They'll be special, and you won't need them. If anything, a Magic [Anything] is an item that grants an Ability to whoever holds it, and has at least one similar power.

So, the Magic Weapon works for anyone with an appropriate [Ranged] or [Melee] [Weapon] power.

For abilities, if you need an item, you get benefits to abilities that need that item. Firebombs or a Wand has more power than mini-bombs or mind-powers.

The characters that need an item for their ability can use any apporpriate item. A warrior can pick up an axe, or a sword, or a shovel, and break people apart with any of the three. The Wizard uses a wand, or staff, or crystal ball.... wizards get a bit of the short end of the stick. You can give them pendants or bracelets though.

I'm thinking that every ability will have their normal powers; plus a special for each tier. The special is what you get if you have a weapon/item/tool.

So, you can trip, but if you have a Tool (rope), you can do from range. The Special lets you slow an enemy; and the Super ties them up like a calf. Without the tool, you need to be in closer, with the tool you can do it from range.

How does that work as a balance point? you're limited in the amount of items you can have in play (2, seriously, just 2); and you only get the whole of your abilities if you have an item to unlock them.

There could also be abilities that make you count as if you have an item; magic tattoos, or combat system training. They let you do some minor things; but their basic ability is "activate this Common Power; you count as having a weapon, even if you don't have one that you can equip, you must have a free slot" or "you count as having an item for your special abilities; this can be anything from innate magic/psionics to built-in cybernetics".

[Mask_De_H]

Do we really care about the granularity of how people get their abilities off if we're working for broad categories? For instance, if we have a swordy guy have his weapons confiscated, but he picks up a sturdy stick to use as a sword, shouldn't we just let him fight with that and his abilities? He'd get extra bennies using the sword he once had, but he shouldn't have his abilities cut out from under him without it. It would go a long way to making improvised weapons mean something.

If the fluff is being added afterward, why should we kick somebody in the nuts for it? Unless you are proposing a perk system, a la HERO or M&M, where you're purposefully adding power at the expense of versatility.

I also think the tool special should be a part of the tool/weapon/whatever itself, as opposed to the power. Using J_E's example, the Fine Rope (tool) would have as it's inherent "Trip at range", Special "Slow an enemy", Super "Hog-tie and render helpless."

If we limit the abilities and powers to 2 and 2, that gives the player four abilities of each class to play with at level 1, which is pretty nice. How high do we want to go with abilities though, would 8 innate + 2 item work alright?

EDIT: Catharz's got a point. There should be a tiering of tags: type of ability (Melee, Ranged, Travel), attribute (Strength, Dex), and classification (Fire, Shadow, Steve). This does, however lead to a metric fucktonne of possible tags on each ability, unless we limit it to two. An example:

Mook Surfboard: (+1/+1)
Type: Melee Travel
Attribute: Dex
Classification: Awesome, Acrobat

Normal: Dex vs. Dex, if successful, knocks opponent prone, may continue moving.
Special: Dex vs. Dex, knocks opponent prone. if successful, may move yourself and opponent up to move speed. Opponent takes [Damage] per 5' moved
Super: Dex vs. Dex, knocks opponent prone. if successful, may move yourself and opponent in a charge against any target in range. Opponents take [Damage] per 5' moved, may make same attack against target in charge.

[JonSetanta]

You should also force PCs and NPCs to select numbers of powers for each category, to prevent full-stock attackers or noobtrap "I go full defense" mistakes.

Alternately, if you go a different route and limit 2 of any category such as Attack or Buff you'll have more diversity without restricting players to "2 Attack 1 Buff 1 Defense 1 Mobility" etc.

For my own RPG (haven't updated the files here in a while, too many revisions) I decided on 6 powers 'readied' at any one time, although there might be check-based options for swapping out mid-battle during Rest mode, and similar limitations on the homogeneity of power selection.

[Mask_De_H]

If the defensive powers are interesting and useful, and the attacker isn't complete rape in a can, forcing options shouldn't be necessary. If we're going against the 4e setup, we want tanks and defenders to do things other than piddly shit. A total defense character should be as useful in situations as a total offense character, or a total mobility character, or a total buffer.

[JonSetanta]

"Total"-type PCs should be the exception to norm then.

I've seen too many newb spellcaster PCs ruined because the player chose the "wrong spells".
Selecting powers could be a similar situation here.

Perhaps beginning players (Easy Mode) are suggested to obey such restrictions, gradually easing back those limits one power at a time (Normal Mode), while experienced players (Hard Mode) are limit-free on arrangement.

[Wulf]

Okay, cool. So, for example, we have a [Melee] tag, a [Range] tag, a [Stealth] tag, and a [Magic] tag.

If you get say, 4 ability slots at start, 2 [Melee] gets you Warrior, 2 [Range] gets you Archer, 2 [Stealth] gets you Rogue, and 2 [Magic] gets you Mage.

Second tier: Warrior/Mage = Eldrich Knight, Warrior/Rogue = Thug, Warrior/Archer = Sniper, Warrior/Warrior = Facekicker

What are we going to do about stats? I'm thinking axe Charisma and Constitution, and then have scores equal modifiers.

Perhaps stats can fulfill the roles that classes normally help with. This include skillpoints, hitdie and saves.

So instead of having your class decide your hitdie and con modifier your bonus hitpoints, instead con modifier simply give double their bonus. Ofcourse, I believe you want to remove hitpoints entirely, so consider it an example.

Dexterity influences your reflex save growth, not just an added bonus to your class base reflex save. Intelligence decides your skillpoints x2.

Thinking about it, it is a bit sillly in D&D, that the character with the higher wisdom is lower in will saves simply because he choose a different class, although he want to play be a character with strong will-power (which is why he put points in to wisdom).

[Judging__Eagle]

No, no tying of stats to abilities.

That's wrong for organic characters, and bad for the game. What if someone wants to make a fat character that bounces through a crowd? Your ability is suddenly locking them out, and a new ability needs to be made to accomodate fat, or smart, or wise or forceful or just plain strong characters.

Abilities are tied to something that isn't variable. They're tied to the number of abilities that a character has.

Your Stats are other things. I'm even keen on getting rid of the Intelligence stat; replace it with Education; info your character knows, that you don't. Players and characters are "equally" intelligent.


Also, let's get rid of Skill Points, Hit Die and Saves.... well, maybe not saves.

Skills come in Tiers; every character gets say.... 5 skills at "their level" in bonus; and the same amount in 3/4 their level (rounded up); the rest are always 1/2 their level.

Your "level" is linked to your total Wound Levels.

On Hit Dice:

Instead of Hit Dice; let's go Wound Levels.

A mechanic that I was thinking is this:

A Creature's Wound levels is Equal to their total amount of Abilities.

One "readied slots":

A character has all of their abilities, all the time. They can only ready 2 items; so they tend to pick abilities that synergize with their chosen item.

Many abilities need no items. I'm thinking that an ability will be one of the "main" types of abilities; and if you use an item, you get a secondary ability from an other type.

So; the "movement" ability that was outlined, is strictly that. But if an item is used (anything from a Portal Gun, to charging with a horse could be used as an "item" for attack and motion abilities; but so could a "grease" spell, or something.), then the character can also attack when using the ability.

One Ability amounts:

Not a lot. You get 2 at level 1; maybe 3... yeah, 3 at level 1. Every level you get 1 more ability.

Dealing and Taking Damage:

Your abilities do a number of Wound levels equal to your total abilities, Plus your Offense score.

You roll against your target.

They roll their total amount of abilities, plus their Defense score.

The result is the difference in damage.

I'm thinking that d6's or d4's are the dice used for combat.

Taking damage:

When you lose a wound level, you also lose an ability for that battle. The person that takes damage chooses which ability is shut off.

That's the penalty that we'll apply, people will want to apply wound levels on many targets at some times, and a few targets at others.
=========

How is that so far?

Are people fine with Abilities = Level = Wound levels = Skill Ranks = Main stat used to calculate Offense/Defense?

Ability stats are for things like "I'm as strong as an ox; or I'm as tough as nails" not "I can kill ten men with a piece of straw, or I can breathe fire, or I can fly."

Abilities being tied to skill groups, that each player chooses the Ability-Skill Group link for their character. So, strong, sneaky, or fat and sneaky, rogues are possible.

[MartinHarper]

Puzzles: If you have both puzzles and puzzle-solving characters (smart or whatever), then you could, for example, design puzzles with additional clues for people who make their INT rolls. You don't have autopilot, but the archmage isn't stumped by a dumb player.

Can't do that: it's what 4e does. See DMG p81.

[Judging__Eagle]

Uhm... Gandalf failed to solve a riddle, that one of the Hobbits answered.

It's all player resolved. Deal with it, and let's move on.

[PhoneLobster]

I think the ye olde riddle argument is a major derail of this thread.

It is also a very stupid argument and I'm pretty sure was hashed out sufficiently years ago in some kind of riddles are bad thread.

If you want to do it again maybe you should make a "riddles suck" thread. Then I would feel free to tell you why you are a drooling fool for demanding players do the whole "walks on three legs at sunset" routine.

[Meikle641]

Yes, that and some other things were discussed here: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=59144

[PhoneLobster]

I was referring to an ancient thread dedicated to the topic. I spent longer than I care to looking and couldn't find it. I'm off to make a new one.