Riddle Me Not

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:56 am

Judging__Eagle wrote: Mini-games that are not included are reduced to a collective of each player making a dice roll, and adding their relevant number.

Honestly most of the time you might as well not even bother including that particular element at all. That is, if people don't like riddles, don't have riddle checks, just don't have any riddles there. Even the riddle check is pretty annoying since it's just a random roll (of which the PCs have no control) to solve the riddle or not solve it. You are in fact better off just not having that riddle there at all and replacing it with some other form of obstacle that the PCs want to encounter, like a social encounter or a combat.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:58 am

PhoneLobster wrote:GMs who look for riddles there are no better off than those who write their own because they can't recognise a "good" riddle.

Are your opinions are just too clouded by your own prior bad experiences with bad DMs to ever accept that maybe there are good DMs who can do that?

Or are you writing off anything you haven't witnessed up until now as a scientific impossibility?

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:06 am

Man, I get it, you don't like riddles. I think everyone is supporting the point that if you don't like riddles, or your players don't, then don't include them. Some people are also talking about how to use riddles if you and your players do like them. And yet, you keep insisting that it's impossible for anyone to like riddles, ever.

Seriously, this is like someone posting a fix for the Monk, and you saying "Monk is stupid concept, nobody should ever use it", and then continuing to rant against it after they explain that it's an optional class for people who do like the concept.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:37 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Are your opinions are just too clouded by your own prior bad experiences with bad DMs to ever accept that maybe there are good DMs who can do that?

RC right now I am having an experience with pro riddling DMs who can't find a single "good" riddle as an example or give a single defense as to WHY the characters in game would take riddles seriously or why players out of game should do so either.

You can hardly complain with your little ad hominem attack against my supposed DM experiences when you yourself happen to be doing nothing more than providing an active example of terrible DMing right here and now in front of everyone.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:58 am

So, the requirements for including a classical riddle in an RPG campaign are:
1) at least one player enjoys answering riddles.
2) the DM enjoys setting (or researching) riddles.
3) the rest of the party is able to progress whilst the interested player(s) think about the riddle.
4) the riddle is easy and/or has multiple correct answers.
5) the riddle makes sense from an in-universe perspective.
6) if the riddle is never solved then the campaign can still progress.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:22 am

MartinHarper wrote:So, the requirements for including a classical riddle in an RPG campaign are:

Pretty much. And they also basically won't be met.

You might pull something off that cosmetically resembles that with a riddle locked puzzle box or something equally arbitrary but there will be further complications.

But it's important to remember basically every single example you ever see of someone using riddles in D&D, including our only example here, is the locked door riddle. "Enter Password to continue" as it were.

It fails almost every one of those conditions. But it is the absolutely iconic use (or rather abuse) of riddles in D&D.

On it's own it's enough to discredit every GM to use it. Everywhere.

5) the riddle makes sense from an in-universe perspective.

This condition in particular is just about impossible to meet.

It absolutely requires that the riddler wants the riddle answered.

AND that for whatever reason the riddle is in no way a security mechanism.

Nor can the riddle be a hindrance to anything actually remotely important.

So it basically gets saved for sealing envelopes containing another amusing letter from your eccentric uncle. It certainly can't be anything that adventurers care about in their adventures.

6) if the riddle is never solved then the campaign can still progress.

Even the solo puzzle box with loot or something inside has a hard time meeting this one. After all "Riddle me yes!" player has effectively given permission to the GM to take some portion of his loot and demand arbitrary hoop jumping to actually get it.

Throwing him out of balance with everyone else in the party while they fight off the demon hordes and say "Have you opened the fucking box of contribute your fucking share of power YET annoying riddle leprechaun PC?".

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:44 am

A divination cast about a unique monster the party is going to be fighting in the near future, or perhaps discovery a moldy tome that lists the results of divinations concerning various monsters (purely for record-keeping, no annotations). The weakness of the monster is described in a riddle.

Divination & Legend Lore are both spells that aren't guaranteed to bestow explicit information, where the information can be couched in a riddle.

If the party doesn't solve it, they can still fight the monster normally, the riddle's answer only giving some kind of advantage if used; such as being dazzled in its presence, taking damage from it, transform it into something 1 CR weaker, whatever.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:59 am

There is exactly one thing good about riddles. They can be used to mess with the un genre savvy.

*door asks riddle*

The correct answer is something to the effect of 'What sort of idiot would fall for a trick like that?'

Because seriously, ignoring the fact you are far inferior to your character, who the fuck would even make a puzzle door?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:02 pm

[quote='Well since Roy slipped in a spacer, here's a quick context']An example scenario was given it went a bit like...

Incompetent Riddle GM : "The er, Werewolve's Bane has an eerie glowing er... shane..."
Player one : "You think it's some kind of shiny metal?"
Player two : "Hell no it only mentioned eerie light. I say it's telling us to defeat the mayor's murdering son with MOONLIGHT!"
Player three : "Just in case it meant Moonshine I'm setting up a still and getting very very drunk"
Player four : "You guys are all idiots, he said Shane My horse is called Shane, I say we hit him in the face with 300 pounds of Shane"
[/quote]

Why is the weakness described in riddle format?

Does the riddler not want the party/reader to know? Then why is it answerable and why is the answer not a red herring?

Does the riddler want the the party/reader to know? In that case why are they risking that the party might think the answer is "gold" instead of "sunlight"?

Is the riddler simply insane? In which case again why has the party any reason to waste their time with gibbering ravings that are as likely to be misleading red herrings as the truth?

Your sample fails the real world justification very fast.

As for Divination & legend lore explicitly encouraging riddles, a history of incompetence does not justify it's continuation. Legacy is not an excuse for Riddles.

Edit: Last one, honest: Apparently Shane is a miniature pony. A small one. Stupid non metric horse.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:51 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:...Or does any way except your way automatically mean the other person is horribly wrong and a moron?

Mostly, yes. PL has difficulty respectfully disagreeing. This should not be a surprise.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:20 pm

If the party find a treasure box locked with a riddle, then plainly that's party treasure and the party should share in its contents, or share in its loss if they can't open it. That won't unbalance the WBL between different players.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:50 pm

As far as where to use riddles the two places I use them:

1) spells like divinations, etc.
2) Dungeons designed as a trial or test. Riddles act as a test of intelligence.

Occasionally I've used them in other places, like an insane guy who wouldn't give them a clue unless they solved his riddle. The clue in that case wasn't essential but it would lead the PCs to more treasure.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:13 pm

So, how to do classic riddles that don't suck, and in particular, riddles that make sense in-universe. We're probably looking for 0-1 riddles per campaign. There are many other puzzles with which to satisfy a puzzle-happy player, so we don't want to get stuck in a rut.

The Sphinx
Looking through source books, and through monster manuals, most monsters don't make sense in one way or another. The sphinx is yet another one. If your campaign world already includes undead that feed on the essence of the living, it can stand sphinxes that feed on brain waves generated by solving linguistic puzzles.
The Sphinx's riddle can be told to the players in advance, so the puzzle-happy player can solve it without boring the other players. If the riddle is never solved, the players can progress by killing the sphinx, or bypassing it, or finding someone who knows the answer.

Archaic language
Archaic english is often hard to understand even if it was written with the intention of being clear, and this applies to many fantasy language too. For example, consider the inscription in Sunless Citadel that says "channel good, open the way". This was once a very clear instruction, but with many centuries having passed, it becomes a riddle for the PCs.
In the case of Sunless Citadel, if the players never solve the riddle then they may disable the trap and break the door down, or they may ignore the room and head onwards. They could also track down someone who is familiar with ancient draconic.

Tests and contests
As present in the source material. Fantasy folks don't have A-levels, so if an NPC wants to know if the PCs have a brain, she might well pose them a riddle to test their intelligence and general knowledge. To make sure that it isn't a road-block, the party should be allowed to go progress in other ways and come back when they have the answer.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:23 pm

Riddles (you have all of the information you are going to get) are lame, puzzles (you have collected the Z journal fragments and piece them into something that hopefully isn't a riddle) are okay, mysteries (you have X evidence and bad things that give +Y evidence may continue to happen until you stop them) are better.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:55 pm

MartinHarper pretty much covers it. Prophecies that are given in riddle form are iconic, and as nonsensical as vampires that are held at bay by garlic or monsters that eat gemstones & precious metals, and the same goes for potential nonhumans that actually offer a riddle in place of beating them in combat; much in the same way Death offers a second chance to people who beat him at chess, or how faeries allow life-and-death scenarios to hang on the results of a game of croquet.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:47 pm

I particularly like riddles / puzzles of the old Dr. Who Series when Tom Baker was acting in the role of the Doctor. They had a number of locked door puzzles. My favorite was a locked door, a harp and a painting. The painting showed the room, with the open door, the harp, a music stand and music on the stand, so detailed you could even spot the individual notes on the parchment. (HINT)

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:43 am

Necroing this thread because I used a riddle in a campaign again.

The party is exploring a ruined temple. One room has a magical glyph that shoots a fire blast at them if they get too close, then has to recharge for a minute before it can shoot again. This fire blast is intense enough to be pretty dangerous. A critical hit might mean a PC has to spend a fate point to survive.

Shortly after they enter the complex, an evil wizard arrives to make their job harder (they might have detected and stopped him on the way in, but that did not happen). He casts a dispel that temporarily deactivates the glyph, then attaches a magical scroll to it. Then the wizard leaves to hide behind his undead warriors 2 rooms further in.

The magic scroll glows with intense red light, and it visibly sends pulses of energy into the glyph. The glyph now has better range, does slightly more damage, and it only needs 1 round to recharge between fireblasts.

The scroll says the following (this riddle copied from somewhere on the internet):

I have many tongues but cannot taste
By me, most things are turned to waste
I crack and snap, yet I stay whole
I may take the largest toll
I assisted all of the first men
And I will pay them back again
Around me, people snuggle and sleep
Yet run when I am released from my keep
I jump around and leap and bound
The cold man wishes I he had found

Destroying or deactivating the scroll burns out the glyph entirely, rendering it harmless. Possible ways to do this:
- throw a bunch of water or flaming stuff at the scroll, either destroying or deactivating it
- build a mobile shield capable of absorbing the attacks, then advance close enough to grab the scroll
- throw in a flour or smoke bomb so the glyph can't target you, then remove the scroll
- shoot the scroll a bunch of times until it falls to pieces, doing something to avoid the return fire, which probably involves taking cover behind doorframes.
- cast a dispel if you know one
- HARDMODE: write "fire" or some synonym on the scroll, possibly combining telekinesis and a pen to do so safely

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:34 am

That setup doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective.

What is the wizard's motive for making his "make the glyph more powerful" scroll turn off when you answer the riddle on it?

Why can the glyph be supercharged with a scroll in the first place?

If the party copies the riddle on a scroll, and then applies it to a similiar gylph, can they supercharge that one? What about disabling it that way with the answer?

Why is the riddle (presuming there is a good reason for the riddle in the first place) in a language that isn't at least as obscure as Roper, if the wizard presumably doesn't want the scroll deactived by just anyone?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:37 am

This setup confuses and angers me.

1) Is it a joke about how terrible riddles can be or is it a terrible riddle? I cannot tell.

2) The riddle itself angers me. I got it before I started the second line.

3) Wait... what? WRITE it on the scroll? How the hell are they supposed to know the riddle exclusively accepts answers in the form of written submissions? That is nowhere implied by the set up or the riddle itself.

4) And yeah, the riddle bit makes absolutely no sense in universe.

5) The whole thing is an obstacle the party needs to bypass using non-riddle related powers? What part of that does the riddle add to in a good way, it looks exclusively like a red herring. I mean the party IS going to bypass it without answering the riddle. The secret written submission only policy is basically going to ensure that one.

6) No wait wait, one of the "not really solutions" is to throw a bunch of water or fire at it? WHAT? OK so they yelled "Fire!" at the scroll for ten minutes and it did nothing, so they THROW fire at it, and that doesn't answer the riddle, it just maybe destroys stuff and they don't even know the difference. And worse WTF? WATER no REALLY the OPPOSITE of the answer is a solution to? For NO OBVIOUS REASON? What?

So yeah all in all I can't tell the difference between whether this is a bad riddle insertion in a D&D game, or the insertion of bad satire about how bad riddle insertions are in a D&D game.

No, but really. Written submissions only? WTF? Really?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:53 am

Grek wrote: What is the wizard's motive for making his "make the glyph more powerful" scroll turn off when you answer the riddle on it?

Well, his first idea was to kill the party with an unnecessarily slow-moving dipping mechanism, but he didn't have one handy.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:00 pm

Gah. Computer crash midway through typing up answer. Lets try this again.

Grek wrote:That setup doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective.

What is the wizard's motive for making his "make the glyph more powerful" scroll turn off when you answer the riddle on it?

"Curses! These intrepid fools risk reawakening Sobek if I don't stop them. What do I do, what do I do!? Aha, here's a trap they haven't sprung yet. I'll spice it up with a class 2 enigma, then set up a cunning ambush further in the temple."

(This cunning ambush involves standing in a protective circle of runes that glows as bright as a torch in the middle of a dark room and laughing evilly when the PCs approach, then repeatedly insulting them, allowing them the first attack. The circle of runes is just extra ablative HP.)

Grek wrote:Why can the glyph be supercharged with a scroll in the first place?

The glyph, which is also on a scroll, was placed there by the Evil Wizard a few hundred years ago. He made it to last, but now he used his Enigma Mage talent and a fate point to temporarily supercharge the ward, since there were clearly people it could start shooting at in the immediate future.

Grek wrote:If the party copies the riddle on a scroll, and then applies it to a similiar gylph, can they supercharge that one? What about disabling it that way with the answer?

If the party has relevant abilities, they could probably salvage both scrolls as a 2nd circle fire-based attack spell, then learn it. They could also use the riddle scroll up for a free point of empowerment on a spell that involved fire.

If the party ran into a similar fire glyph made by the same evil wizard, they might be able to supercharge that one as well, but it would likely be at least a DL11 check to do right. Or requisite spending a fate point.

Grek wrote:Why is the riddle (presuming there is a good reason for the riddle in the first place) in a language that isn't at least as obscure as Roper, if the wizard presumably doesn't want the scroll deactived by just anyone?

This Evil Wizard sucks at his job. He is intended to be someone who could be infinitely deadlier if they thought things out more carefully, so the PCs will be more pleased with their own creativity when they acquire similar levels of power.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

PhoneLobster wrote:This setup confuses and angers me.

1) Is it a joke about how terrible riddles can be or is it a terrible riddle? I cannot tell.

Actual terrible riddle used in actual game. Though I'd argue that this is among the better riddles I found in my research.

PhoneLobster wrote:2) The riddle itself angers me. I got it before I started the second line.

Congrats. I was aiming to make it easy, what with the fire-magic it was visibly bolstering, so its nice to know that at least one of the redundant layers of clues worked.

PhoneLobster wrote:3) Wait... what? WRITE it on the scroll? How the hell are they supposed to know the riddle exclusively accepts answers in the form of written submissions? That is nowhere implied by the set up or the riddle itself.

4) And yeah, the riddle bit makes absolutely no sense in universe.

I am not sure I agree, but then again, I haven't posted much about the setting and only oblique stuff about the ruleset. I suppose if the characters clearly say something meant to be an answer to the riddle, that would work as well.

PhoneLobster wrote:5) The whole thing is an obstacle the party needs to bypass using non-riddle related powers? What part of that does the riddle add to in a good way, it looks exclusively like a red herring. I mean the party IS going to bypass it without answering the riddle. The secret written submission only policy is basically going to ensure that one.

It introduces them to Enigma Wizard's incompetent deathtraps and bizarre magical specialty. And it also adds 1 more solution to the "bypass this glyph" challenge.

PhoneLobster wrote:6) No wait wait, one of the "not really solutions" is to throw a bunch of water or fire at it? WHAT? OK so they yelled "Fire!" at the scroll for ten minutes and it did nothing, so they THROW fire at it, and that doesn't answer the riddle, it just maybe destroys stuff and they don't even know the difference. And worse WTF? WATER no REALLY the OPPOSITE of the answer is a solution to? For NO OBVIOUS REASON? What?

The party's actual solution was one guy going "Hey, that glyph shoots fire, so maybe it will fizzle out if I dowse it in water.". He then explains how he does this. I go "sure, sounds cool", not having thought about that specific answer much before. They destroy the glyph, and then they pick up the scroll. Another guy goes "So, the answer was fire, right?". I congratulate him on his perception.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

hogarth wrote:
Grek wrote: What is the wizard's motive for making his "make the glyph more powerful" scroll turn off when you answer the riddle on it?
Well, his first idea was to kill the party with an unnecessarily slow-moving dipping mechanism, but he didn't have one handy.

Tempting.

Count Arioch the 28th · Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:16 pm

I used a riddle once. The players were in Acheron, and ran into two gehreleths encased in stone, beside two paths. They said one path lead to certain doom, the other lead to safety, one only told lies, the other only told the truth. You get the spiel.

The truth is that they made the whole thing up. When the party got to the end of the deathtrap deadend hallway, they came back and confronted the 'leths. their response was "Why would you automatically believe anything we might say?". The players... were less than happy with me.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:25 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:The truth is that they made the whole thing up. When the party got to the end of the deathtrap deadend hallway, they came back and confronted the 'leths. their response was "Why would you automatically believe anything we might say?". The players... were less than happy with me.

That's funny.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:42 pm

Avoraciopoctules wrote:I go "sure, sounds cool", not having thought about that specific answer much before. They destroy the glyph, and then they pick up the scroll. Another guy goes "So, the answer was fire, right?". I congratulate him on his perception.

So you do realise this bags you THE LOT. This becomes "there was no answer just read my mind or alternately make me happy, fairy tea party! LOL!". And like I said that gets you the full set you have basically done EVERY stupid shitty thing on the list of things you should FUCKING NOT DO with riddles in D&D. Congratulations. You continue to amaze me with your feats of bad DMing.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:49 pm

riddles can be fun, ignore PL