The Gaming Den Forum Index The Gaming Den
Welcome to the Gaming Den.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Google
 Search WWW   Search tgdmb.com 
What are your thoughts on d20 Modern?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion...
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
The 13 Wise Buttlords
Master


Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are a few spells off of the spell list that are totally worth having, though, because they duplicate effects you can't get elsewhere in the game.

Supernatural information gathering, the animate dead/summon monster line, the raise dead line of spells, being able to teleport over telephone, making your own vehicle out of nowhere, and so on.

For the most part, though, they are crap. Your party will definitely need a spellcaster, but you don't want to be one. If someone has to be a spellcaster, then pick the Scientist advanced class in d20 past and just cherry-pick plot-advancement related classes. The shaman advanced class in d20 past is servicable if you abuse the hell out of it, but not all that great.

Anyway. As far as advanced classes go, you never want to pick anything that gives less than full BAB, even if it hands out no other abilities. This means taking martial artist levels if you must. The martial artist isn't bad as far as d20 modern classes go, because nonlethal damage completely overtakes lethal damage in stopping monsters at around level 10 or so. I'm so serious.

But for the most part, you want to be a Shadowchaser / (Un)Holy Knight combination. Someone should be the Field Commander advanced class from d20 future. Someone should also be a Scientist but if your DM won't let you then settle for an acolyte. But all your levels should end with (Un)holy Knight, even if you don't melee or have an abysmal charisma score.

There are very, very rare occasions in which you want to be a Strong Hero or a Smart Hero and that's only if your campaign is going to end at exactly level 8 or 9, if only because they'll only be one level ahead of Fast Hero for qualifying for advanced classes, ever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orion
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3624

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I liked d20 Modern, actually.

Let's get the bad stuff out of the way:

Tough Heroes suck, a lot. There's really no reason for them to exist. Charismatic heroes suck nearly as much, although at least thye can do some thigns other classes can't easily emulate. But they still suck.

Yes, Fast heroes are awesome. But Dedicated Heroes are also playable (same BAB, same skill points, good talents). And Smart heroes, while weaker on the whole than the other two, have various technological tricks the others can't easily replicate, so you probably want of of them. Meanwhile, Strong heroes get full BAB.

So yeah, 4 playable classes out of 6 ain't bad, especially when the optional settings give great prestige classes to the three which aren't fast.

It also has a simple, playable paradigm for magic: D20 Modern magic is absolute shit at combat, but godly for utility. So Mages have a defined role that lets them be cool and effective without overshadowing the modern characters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The 13 Wise Buttlords
Master


Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd also like to point out that the artists for d20 modern have a ridiculous fascination with G-strings.

It's way too noticable in the basic book but this fetish gets downright ridiculous in Urban Arcana. I think they managed to sneak one in d20 Apocalypse, too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JonSetanta
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 5078
Location: interbutts

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Psychic Robot wrote:
Ah, yes, the dependence on action points. GRAGH.


The concept works fine as a per-encounter resource.

Anything more, such as by the hour or per day or per fucking level as with Eberrtard, and it's worthless.
_________________
My fiction blog and novelette

FrankTrollman wrote:
Scaling feats were just a bad idea. I'm sorry I wrote them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koumei
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12793
Location: South Ausfailia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:
I'd also like to point out that the artists for d20 modern have a ridiculous fascination with G-strings.


Are you saying "More full-seat panties, ala IkkiTousen and Agent Aika", or "Just don't reveal the underwear as much"?

Because I'd agree with the former, even though Maddie's G-string is what helped me amend my stance of "I don't find Drow attractive".

But I wanted someone else to mention Maddie in her G-string instead, so I just mentioned the illithid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PhoneLobster
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 6199

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OK now one of you has pissed me off because I read your post, particularly, claims about several of the dud base classes being OK and giving out OK talents.

And I thought. Hey it's been a while, maybe the system has retroactively changed or someone rewrote my memory of it

So you made me go LOOK.

And what the hell are you talking about? Those guys have NOTHING in their talents. NOTHING. The fast hero gets to be half of a rogue. Everyone else gets SKILL BONUSES. If I wrote classes like that for core d20, and lets remember this is still a only barely hatchet jobbed version of that, you would laugh me out of town.

So lets take a closer look at the base classes you claim are mostly playable (and some you don't).

*Note* gratuitous use of the word bitch in some class reviews is a reminder of how the rules designers want you to bend over, think of your country and take your additional sucky class levels etc... like a man, or rather a bitch. I just want people to know, I'm not calling YOU a bitch.

Strong Hero
Quote:
Meanwhile, Strong heroes get full BAB.

And that's all you say. And really. That is all there is to say. You take strong hero if and only if you need full BAB. It gets you into a minority of bullshit annoying PrCs or "Advanced Classes" (if your game ever gets that far or your GM doesn't hate bullshit PrCs on perfectly reasonable principle) like one to two levels faster than being a Fast hero.

And in exchange for that you get to have less skill points, less class skills, a lower reputation bonus (WTF?) and notably 2 points less defence bonus. AND as if to remind you to bail out at +5 BAB (if you didn't leave at +3) if you take the sixth level you will fall an EXTRA point behind on defence bonus!

But a d20modern basic class is also about 50% bonus feats and talents. So lets look.

Extreme Effort
Yes. You can blow three talents, that's HALF your entire TEN LEVEL strong hero career potential (and more than your entire 2 talents from your 3 level "get me out of this class" career) on nothing more than a total +6 bonus to strength checks. Yes. Strength checks. Wait, that includes strength based skill checks, as full round actions. Did that make it more appealing? No.

Ignore Hardness
Wowee, you can like break stuff, and if you spend like again your entire 3 of 2 talents/3 of 5 talents on it you can do it moderately OK. I mean its still pretty sucky but you might actually notice it if you max it out. But its so bad EITHER of the other talent trees are probably more fun and useful. And did I mention? Melee attacks only. So if you are using this class to become like a Soldier or Sniper or Gunslinger or some such bullshit a level or two faster than the Fast hero, you never use this.

melee smash
Again for a whopping 3 talents you can earn... +3 to damage. Now this is probably the best tree, because well, it actually DOES something a lot of the time, in fact its half as good as ignore hardness for the purpose of breaking objects AND adds its bonus to other attacks as well! But only melee attacks. So unless you actually intend to be the guy bringing the knife to all the gunfights you never use this either.

bonus feats
Pretty much pure Melee. So Yeah, again, nothing for anyone who was just in it for the BAB unless they were in it for the BAB AND want to only ever punch people/hit them with sticks or something. Because there are no like, strong auto cannon lugging machine gun guys or anything, or characters that desperately want to get into a "I shoot things" class with a BAB requirement as fast as possible. I mean there isn't even personal fire arms proficiency on the list.

So anyway in the end you need what? +3 BAB to get into an actual Strong recommended advanced class? And a Fast hero gets that what? ONE level after you do? So is the full BAB anything we care about? NO. Because to use it to get into your advanced class ONE level sooner than being a Fast hero and doing it you lose defence, reputation, and 2 of your talents and one of your bonus feats are crap and possibly irrelevant to the rest of your career.

You can't even use this to sneak into Fast or other advanced classes and their bullshit +2 BAB requirement one level faster because they typically have skill rank requirements that force you to level 3 ANYWAY.

And all of this and your archetype is pushed towards being the guy who hits things with sticks. In a "modern" game. With guns.

No. Full BAB is unremarkable in this context. Utterly so. I really don't need or want +1 extra at that cost.

Tough Heroes
Quote:
Tough Heroes suck, a lot. There's really no reason for them to exist.

I agree that they suck, a lot, but there IS a reason for them to exist. Being tough is cool. They just don't FULFIL their reason to exist. I'll cover them for completeness anyway.

I mean you drop Jaws out of a plane in d20 modern he is going to fucking die. DR 2/- isn't going to save him.

So anyway. Same BAB as fast, still only one good save, ONLY 1d10 hit die (wheee tiny tiny increment more HP than the Fast and the Strong), less skill points than Fast, a worse skill list than Strong, STILL only one "good" save (that's not very "tough"?), a bonus feat list with the same "I is hitting you" obsession as strong, but also crapper AND...

Damage Reduction
Three talents for DR 3/-. I rest my case.

Energy Resistance
Talent by talent collect obscure rarely used energy resistances of 4's and 5's or something crap. Spend ten tough levels sucking to collect them all and have them benefit you nothing when an otherwise inferior strong hero hits you in the face with a stick or if everyone else just fucking shoots you.

Unbreakable
You want to end your life as a Tough sucker, take Remain Conscious! It actually encourages people to hit you while you are at negative hit points! Yay!

Take Robust for a piddling amount of extra hit points, that will only ever grow (a tiny bit) if you commit to EVEN MORE tough levels!

Take second wind, spend action points (and no actual actions) to get hit points back! Fuck knows how often you can do this! That sounds good, until you realise its only Con mod hit points per use.

Take Stamina and reduce off screen time between the five minute working day (theoretically if you invested in giant Con as I suspect is intended you probably actually need this to heal the same percentage of Hit points as everyone else in the same time anyway), and watch me NOT CARE.

Oh, and you get the same reputation as a Fast hero. I mean, I don't fucking care, but IN YOUR FACE STRONG HERO!

Smart Hero
Quote:
And Smart heroes, while weaker on the whole than the other two, have various technological tricks the others can't easily replicate, so you probably want of of them.

Lets start with the basics of what you lose. Less hit points than fast, 1/2 BAB instead of 2/3rd. Your only "good" save is on Will (you know, mind control and illusion), not nearly as everyday useful as Reflex (explosives) or Fortitude (god damn massive damage) in many modern games. And your defense bonus is THREE points behind Fast, indeed by level 4 you are FOUR points behind and five by level ten! I mean WOW you are easy to hit, Strong and Tough heroes laugh at you!

Now what you gain is skill points and about every utility skill (but no fun action skills) on your class list. But. If you DO put a big Int on your smart hero, why do you need 4 extra ranks a level over a big Int fast hero? And why do you need EVERY utility skill ever, anyone can get the two or three they might need for requirements from occupations and being the go to guy for star trek AND Babylon 5 knowledge checks is in no way superior to having an expert on each in the party, or indeed particularly superior to just having NEITHER.

You also gain a reputation bonus, but again WTF do I care?

Research
OK so you can use savant to gain an unnamed skill bonus to some utility skill I don't care about, but the bonus could be BIG... but only if you punish yourself by taking more levels of Smart as its a fucking class level bonus. Take it multiple times for different skills, I dare you. And many of these skills are like Int based so if you dumped int a bit because you just didn't need that many fricking different utility skills then you basically need this bullshit to get back to where a high Int Fast character is at.

Linguist is ANOTHER class level bonus, but one of the checks it makes doesn't actually have a difficulty so depending on your GM you either like speak every language ever or, well, don't. Mind you you first have to speak or write several languages and potentially invest in bullshit decipher script anyway to qualify/boost this ability so who cares.

Strategy
So if you DID dump strength and dex to get a big Int so your int based skills could throw on Savant and actually be bigger than a similar Fast hero you can make up for your lower BAB and poor attack attributes using Exploit Weakness. At at least level 3. After taking linguist or savant at least once (it's telling you "go take Savant, bitch"). Only on the second round+ of combat. With a DC 15 int+class level check. For only one opponent. And you don't get a damage bonus.

OR you can take PLAN. Then you can jump through hoops before non surprise encounters and add a short duration bonus to attack rolls and skill checks of UP TO PLUS THREE (if you max out intelligence and roll a twenty). I mean often as not it will be +0 to +1. If you even get to roll. And you can't have it till at least level three because you need to take a research talent first (they really want you to take savant, bitch). Oh yeah, it's an int check (max out Int and suffer, bitch) with a class level bonus (keep taking inferior class levels, bitch).

OR you can take Trick. I mean mindless things and super low Int things are immune because you aren't allowed to trick REALLY stupid stuff (it isn't fair) and if you are Allen Quatermain's assistant on "the incredible racist adventure" then all your enemies are immune to you, unless you took linguist AND the GM likes you. BUT hey, with an int check (max int, bitch) plus class level bonus (max sucky class levels, bitch) and a full round action at 30 feet (suffer, bitch) Once per target per combat (bitch) and only if they ALSO fail a will save (bitch) based on your int (max it, bitch) and your class level (good money after bad, bitch) then you DAZE THEM FOR ONE ROUND. Also at the end of the text on that one they make sure to include a line stating "Fuck you, Bitch."

Super kick ass third talent tree
Oh, wait there isn't one, you get one less talent tree and the ones you do have have less talents. Go take Savant several more times. Bitch.

Bonus Feats
If high int and Savant weren't enough now you can blow bonus feats on skill ranks I don't care about as well! Oh and you can take improved trip for some reason. But really, are you the right character chassis to really be doing that? Bitch.

So all up at BEST you are like someones side kick they roll out when they want a REALLY high star trek knowledge check result. At worst you are they guy who COULD have been failing to improved trip someone but instead either spent your full round action failing to take their action with sucky 1 turn daze, or more likely you are the bitch who just got hit a lot and died quickly before failing to do anything at all. Bitch.

Meanwhile a Fast character has reasonable ranks and can max out Int and take an occupation just like anyone else. So he can skill monkey as well as all but the most cripplingly int focused savant eating bitch and still be a Fast hero.

Dedicated Hero
Quote:
But Dedicated Heroes are also playable (same BAB, same skill points, good talents).

You get less hit points than fast, same BAB as Fast, and yes even same skill points. But you get a skill list that is packed with utility and very little physical/adventure skills, and you aren't even a smart Savant bitch (though that's probably no loss as already covered). Still you get social skills and that's OK. You get that same 2 to 3 points less defence that makes the Strong and the Tough so useless, but hey, screw you Smart Hero skill bitch, because you get to be middle of the road defence bonus and laugh at his inferior defences.

You do get more reputation than a Fast hero. It's your dedication to not being as good that makes you famous and well liked I guess.

Notably you get TWO "good" saves but one of them is Will so I'm not entirely sure we should care.

Empathic
You can take empathy, then you can freak people out by staring at them for a minute before talking to them to gain another suck on it bitch type class level bonus to your social checks. Cool bonus, but only if you want to be a class level bitch AND feel the whole 1 minute's silence is the appropriate way to begin all social encounters. And indeed that 1 minutes silence should punctuate ALL your god damn social actions even in the same god damn encounter.

Beware the mighty awesome funness of improved aid another, gain +1 to aid another, take it up to four times at the cost of a mere ten levels in this MIIIIIGHTY class to gain up to +4. But know you well that you may not take it 5 times, nor until at least level three for you must first take (mighty) empathy to ensure you are not swept away by the power of your own ability to add small bonuses to uninteresting actions by other people.

If you do take the mighty Empathy prerequisite (they want you to take empathy, bitch) then you can use the mighty ability to class level times per day (take more dud levels, bitch) make a will save (they probably want you to invest in Wisdom here, bitch, but you can probably get away with not doing so on this one). And low and behold. On a success. You get to ask the GM "danger? Hot or Cold?" and he gets to say "Cold" or "Hot hot hot!" And I don't care because that's a pretty damn dumb "ability".

Healing
Take healing knack, get +2 to treat injury checks, watch me care! Then take healing touch 1 and 2 for an eventual +4 hit points healed by surgery. Oh. Did anyone mention surgery requires 1d4 hours, a DC 20 check, a -4 penalty unless you blow a feat on it, special equipment, causes piles of fatigue (as in 6 to 24 hours), has additional time penalties for negative HP, can only be tried once per character per 24 hours and frankly +4 HP is not going to make much difference? But hey its ONLY 6 levels in dedicated to get this "benefit", take them, and like them, bitch.

Insightful
You can take Skill Emphasis, as a talent, as many times as you like, MERRY CHRISTMAS. I hope you like it because I'm stamping no return on that little present.

Once you do take skill emphasis (take skill emphasis, bitch) you get to take Aware. Then you can make your good base Will save, that we didn't care about, become an anti surprise bonus that we do care about. I mean it would be better if you didn't first waste three character levels and a talent on this to get the ability to not be surprised. But in theory if you STOP taking levels in the class right away you might, one day, both not be surprised AND be a character capable of actually doing something with that. I mean Fast heroes get to take Uncanny dodge 1 and 2 if they want, but hey, don't let that rain on your little "measurable non class level based bonus to not being surprised" parade.

Also, but only as long as you take skill emphasis (take skill emphasis, bitch) You can take Faith! Spend action points for a slightly larger benefit, as long as you boosted Wisdom, that this game really doesn't particularly care about. But anyway more to the point, Hands up who fucking hates action points, especially action point dependant abilities you spend permanent character building resources on? (I'm putting up both my hands right now, five minute pause in typing while I wave them wildly and scream).

FORTUNATELY If I were dedicated, and I must be to write this much shit about d20 modern, and if I have already taken my Skill Emphasis and either Faith or Aware AND an additional 2 levels of Dedicated Hero, like the bitch I must be to do that I can recover by taking Cool Under Pressure to nominate a bunch of skills I can take 10 on. The ability is cool. The cost god damn isn't. But hey if you ALREADY busted out the mullah just to not be surprised so much its only TWO more levels of this instead of an advanced class or Fast or something to net a not too bad ability. Just, is it that good? I can get Evasion and +3 defense with ONE level of Fast...

Bonus FeatsMostly suck but hey proficiencies! and like a gun related feat. WOOO you MIGHT spend your level 2 bonus feat productively before getting the hell out of doge.

So all up Dedicated hero doesn't hurt too bad on some basic attributes, sucks on skills and delivers somewhat spotty talents. If I couldn't take fast I MIGHT take it. But I'm not putting it ahead of Strong or Tough, at best on par and I'm god damn out of there at level 3 for something, anything, and I haven't even looked at the advanced classes in ages!

Charismatic Hero
Quote:
Charismatic heroes suck nearly as much, although at least thye can do some thigns other classes can't easily emulate.

You don't like charismatic heroes. And sure, they totally suck. But I'm not getting why YOU hate them since you seem to actually like Smart and Dedicated heroes and frankly there isn't a short coming imaginable that Smart heroes don't have covered.

Anyway. 1/2 BAB, like the sucky smart hero. The biggest reputation in town (whee!). The same how low can you go defense bonus as the smart hero, with the same d6 die damn you die hit points.

But get this TWO of those dodgey half good save progressions. And they are on Ref AND Fort! That's like almost a good point. (only almost but still).

A generous amount of skill ranks ahead of the Fast hero without making me wonder if investing anything in int is just going to make levelling up a chore. But still probably more than I need. Dodgey utility class skills but hey, social skills are in there and they are cool.

Charm
Charm is basically Savant but only by a specific Gender of target and spread over several skills that actually mess people up with mighty d20 socialising. But its a "take more class levels, bitch" skill so I'm not impressed. Weirdly you pick a target gender so while you may be the hottest woman in town to the men folk your charms don't work on lesbians unless you buy the talent AGAIN. Which you can do as often as you like. I don't know, third time hermaphrodites, 4th time leprachauns, 5th time republicans?

Now we all know that NO people will be nice to you unless you hold unatural charm over at least one of an unspecified number of genders. So you must FIRST take charm at least once (and as often as you like?) before you can take the ability to get people, any people, even the ones you don't sexymesmerise with your charm talent, to perform small favours for you. Yes. You can blow class features for a level on the ability to ask people to help you. Because apparently no one else has that ability. There is lots of text and a little bit of bullshit mechanics but none of it matters because the ability is fucking meaningless.

If you are sexy AND you have the ability to request things from people then you may take your third or later talent as Captivate. Which is so useless it makes Favor look flexible and productive. Heck. It makes TRICK look powerful and that's a god damn Smart talent. I mean its clear they MEANT for it to be all "ooh look at me, cheeze it guys!" but really, its more like "haha, I set you up for surprise attacks, no wait sneak dice are few and far between and it doesn't do that because it ends on attacks and 'threats" Its duration and requirement for attention and various complexity doesn't even make it entirely clear that its a great distraction for stealth or infiltration either. Certainly not well designed for achieving that goal. And remember at least 5 levels of sucking by being a charismatic hero to get this!

Fast Talk
With the self titled entry talent on this album as long as you lie or cheat you can be a Savant (take charismatic levels, bitch) at well, social skills. Which is objectively better than charm because now I can seduce you as long as I lie about not being married. Mind you as far as I can tell this probably stacks with charm so you may be able to begin a whole Diplomancer with this sort of stuff here.

Now I thought Captivate was Bad, roll on Dazzle, burn rounds and multiple rolls with all the same bend over bitch investments of Trick and friends and you too can slowly stack up -1 penalties to some single dude while he and his friends bash you methodically to death with base ball bats.

Taunt is basically Trick with a different name but you have to take Fast Talk AND Dazzle to get it. Who'd have thought it, one up for the smart hero perhaps? Well, Fast Talk is way better than Savant so maybe not...

Bonus Feats
Hey look, boring stuff plus Point Blank Shot. I mean hey, you probably want that at level 1 rather than level 2, but if you HAD to spend your feat at 1st level (the one other than the one you spent on personal fire arms proficiency, you must invest feats to function as even a basic modern hero, bitch) on something else...

So the charismatic hero can probably stack up some nice diplomatising, by level ten with like two talents you can rack up maybe TWO +10 untyped skill bonuses to Bluff and Diplomacy. But once you run out of imaginary genders every time you take a new talent beyond Charm and Fast Talk you will regret being in the class. And all your levels will be are another "class levels bitch" +1 Charm +1 Fast Talk because they sure as hell don't do much else other than screw your Defence bonus and BAB. At least you have Fort and Ref to keep you warm at night, and every NPC you ever met.

Four playable Classes? No. One playable class. Maybe.
Well the game and its rules are, sucky over all so I'm not sure any of the classes are playable. But really. Strong only has BAB and we don't care about +1 extra BAB. Tough has... well... nothing much. Dedicated has at best, spot checks. Smart has, endless sucking. Charismatic has game breaking diplomancing, and endless sucking.

Tough and Strong talents are very narrow, tiny and boring. And the other three are plagued with class level bonuses that invite you to be a bitch and politely ask "can I please have some more sir".

I didn't cover Fast and just used it as a comparison point. But it has average to best basic attributes a good skill list, a good bonus feat list, and a number of good low cost talents including Evasion and Uncanny dodge which is all you ever need to take if you leave at level 3 or 4 which you will if you can actually find an advanced class worth not being Fast anymore (and you might not).

And if you MUST take skills not on the fast list, you get them free from Occupation! If you MUST take talents on someone elses list (god knows why) there is a feat which just god damn does that!

There is basically no reason, ever, to take any basic class other than Fast. Name an archetype, a build, an advanced class prerequisite, anything, and Fast is going to let you do that, and then also let you be better than the guy who did it with the class he was "supposed" to use for that.

Now someone repeat that bullshit about that one advanced class people always seem to pretend makes d20modern function and I'll do a post on how much I hate that.


Last edited by PhoneLobster on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Amra
Knight


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 386

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Do it anyway; that was hil-fucking-arious Big Grin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PhoneLobster
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 6199

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Look the short boring answer would be to simply point out that one functional prestige class does not a modern d20 system save. Especially when this "modern" class revolves around magic and swords. (I single that out because I hear people talking various sword knighty paladiny prestige classes as d20 game savers on more than just this occasion).

And certainly I also find the additional mention of certain prestige classes that "you want someone else to be" is a strong indication that there are very few prestige classes that YOU personally will want to be.

The easy FUNNY answer is to go through a bunch of the advanced classes mentioned on here (and maybe others) and pointing out all the useless, boring, and ridiculous abilities while spluttering and waving my hands about like Wallace and Grommet.

Maybe I might do that tomorrow.


Last edited by PhoneLobster on Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
angelfromanotherpin
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 7448

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
The easy FUNNY answer is to go through a bunch of the advanced classes mentioned on here (and maybe others) and pointing out all the useless, boring, and ridiculous abilities while spluttering and waving my hands about like Wallace and Grommet.


One of Wallace's signature quotes is actually a fine description for a system full of underpowered. "No cheese, Gromit. Not a scrap in the house."
_________________
"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Amra
Knight


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 386

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Do it... DO IT! I love a good rant. I'll have to post my ToB review here at some point; that was dripping with bile and venom Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orion
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3624

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Strong Heroes are definitely boring, because they don't get cool skills. But they do have several gun feats and armor feats on their list, so you can totally be a ranged strong hero. And I hope I don't need ot explain why 1 point of BAB is better than 1 point of defense.

But they don't really shine unless you're playing with Shadow Slayers and/or Holy Knights.

It's just not feasible for a single fast hero to replicate a smart hero's technical skills. And while you could probably obviate a Smart hero with several Fasts working together, that's on the level of party design and unlikely to happen in a real game. A Smart Hero can fill a productive niche if your adventures has enough MacGuffins for him to interact with. And you only have to suffer 2 of his awful talents before jumping into Field Scientist.

Aso, I could be wrong, but AFAIK there is no occupation that will get a Fast hero into Mage or Technomage at level 3.

Charismatic Heroes? I guess it comes down to playstyle. I run more adventures where a Smart Hero's skills ar eneeded but I could see a campaign going the other way. They seem easier to replicate from another class though.

Yeah, if your games consist of nothing but running around shooting thigns in the face, then Fast heroes, the class optimized for that, will rule. If there are other challenges in play -- demons that have to be stabbed with magic swords, unstable deevices that need to shut down-- other classes will have a place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hey_I_Can_Chan
Master


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 247
Location: Garden Grove, CA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Note: I'm adding this as a counterpoint to PL's d20 Modern base classes assessment.

The Spycraft 2.0 supplement Back to Basics recasts each of the d20 Modern classes in a Spycraft manner, making them not as boss as "real" Spycraft characters but a vast improvement over their d20 Modern brethern.

Integral to the functionality of Spycraft is the concept of action dice which begin at 3d4 per session and advance by one die and one die type at each of levels 6, 11, and 16 (so at level 16 and above you get 6d12 per session). You can spend an action die to increase just about any roll, and if you roll the maximum on the die you get to add and reroll until you don'.

Back to Basics's dedicated hero gets the core ability (gotten when you take your 1st character level in any base or expert class) as dedicated, which means when you spend an action die to boost a Wis-based skill check or Will save, you roll two action dice instead of 1, adding both to the result. Also, dedicated lets you add your action die roll to the amount you add to someone else's roll when you're helping them with a skill check; as this bonus tops out at +6 (as do most bonuses in Spycraft to avoid falling off the RNG, IIRC), this isn't that useful, but since straight-up skill bonuses are rare, anything helps.

At level 1 and every other odd level after that you get a knack, which is like a feat but for the most part are inaccessible via feats themselves.

The dedicated hero's knacks include...
  • Extraordinary Senses: Spend a knack each to get one of improved hearing, improved scent, or improved vision, which sounds like a crock of shit, until you realize that these are otherwise unavilable via any means, and provide serious bonuses (+6 unnamed vs. surprise and extended hearing distance* for improved hearing, +6 to tracking checks and extended smelling distance* for improved scent, and improved sight distance* and reduced penalties for range increments for improved vision). It's pretty boss, no matter which you select.
  • Extreme Effort: This is also available to strong heroes. Normally, if you have no ranks in a skill, the best you can get is a 15 (called a result cap; action dice can improve this), but with the first knack of this your untrained skills' results cap at 20, which is pretty cool seeing as how the NPCs are limited the same way, and the NPCs have a pretty limited skill selection--this lets you routinely kick NPC ass at low levels and even high much of the time. The second knack lets you reroll a failed Str- or Wis-based check a number of times per session equal to your number of extreme effort knacks, which is beautiful. The third knack says that if you want to make a skill check that's 10 or more greater than your skill bonus (i.e. it would require you to roll a 10 or higher on a d20), you get a free action die to spend on the skill check... yeah, any skill check, and you can do that a number of times per session equal to your starting action dice.
  • Faith: Faith has 5 levels of knacks. The first adds your dedicated hero level (which can go up to 20) to your Wisdom score for computing stress damage; since stress damage is nasty (it's one of the main purposes of having a good Will save in Spycraft), this is a good thing unless your DM doesn't like lighting PCs on fire, in which case you should find another DM. The second level reduces the time you're boned when you do fail a stress check (which, if you're taking faith knack, you're playing Call of Cthulhu, so you will), so that's okay, but kind of wimpy since you should have made it in the first place. The third level makes it so once per session your action die explodes automatically on the first (but not subsequent) rolls when used for an attack roll or skill check, which is awesome. The fourth faith knack lets you, once per session, spend a full round to give you and all of your buddies a bonus to all their saving throws equal to your Wis modifier from when you meet the baddie until the fight ends... and you're playing a dedicated hero and aren't stupid, so that's kind of cool for the big bad showdown. The fifth faith level gives you and all your buddies an additional action die at the beginning of each session... which is all kinds of awesome.
And I'll be damned if I'm going to summarize the other seven different knacks available, but they include focused (disarm the bomb while being bombed!), force of will (you make people freak the fuck out by staring at them and beating them at arm wrestling), grit (take it like a man!), manhunter (you always get your man), prescience (you can find anything and notice everything), samaritan (you can fix people up better--which actually matters in Spycraft), and teamwork (people are better when you're around).

Oh, yes, and although five of the knacks are only available to dedicated heroes, five of them are also available to the other base classes, so if you started on the path of the teamwork knack, you don't have to start over on a different knack just becase you wanted to go charismatic hero for a level 'cause they share that knack.

At levels 2, 4, 6, 10, 14, and 18 the dedicated hero gets a bonus advanced skill feat or tradecraft feat. Advanced skill feats are awesome in a regular game, while the tradecraft feats are awesome in a spy game, but the tradecraft feats include such things as using poisons, bugging devices, diseases, and fake IDs, so it's all good.

Oh, and in addition to your +1 per 4 levels ability score increases, the dedicated hero gets a +1 Wis at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

All the classes in Back to Basics are built that way. So, sure, if you want a suck ass character who can't do anything, go 'head--play yourself some d20 Modern. My fondness for CoC, however, is limited--I'd rather play somebody who can do something instead of somebody who has Speak English 25% and Shoot Gun 15% or whose level 1 ability is +1 to 1 skill. Fuck that.

_________________________
* Yes, Spycraft tells you how far you can hear, smell, and taste. Seriously. They know players and GCs want to know this crap.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PhoneLobster
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 6199

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay now you said among other things, this...
Boolean wrote:
Strong Heroes are definitely boring, because they don't get cool skills. But they do have several gun feats and armor feats on their list,
So I went and checked the book in case the SRD was divergent.

And it is entirely untrue. Unless you are suggesting Blind Fight and weapon focus are "several gun feats".

Boolean wrote:
so you can totally be a ranged strong hero. And I hope I don't need ot explain why 1 point of BAB is better than 1 point of defense.
Your talents and bonus feats will never add to your ranged attacks. And you DO need to explain why one point of BAB is worth numerous skill ranks, an improved skill list, 2 to 3 points of defense, and good talents and bonus feats.

Boolean wrote:
But they don't really shine unless you're playing with Shadow Slayers and/or Holy Knights.
I'll make fun of those later. But to put it simply right there you are saying "Strong heroes are good because you can be a class other than strong hero!"

Boolean wrote:
It's just not feasible for a single fast hero to replicate a smart hero's technical skills.
And why would you? Technical skills are a massive piece of crap. Proffession, Craft and Knowledge can suck my balls they are respectively, a waste of time, so poorly written they don't function, and complete bullshit pulled out of the GMs ass. A fast hero can afford to waste some portion of their ranks on some of those skills on the off chance the GM is feeling generous about adlibbing something that actually helps you because of it but building a whole god damn character around it is the height of stupidity.

I do not want to replicate the function of a character who respectively has the ability to 1) Waste time (proffession) 2) waste even more time and give us all a headache (craft, repair) 3) artificially raise the bullshit bar to notice or understand clues and monopolize stupid hints from the GM for himself (knowledge, computer use, research).

Quote:
And while you could probably obviate a Smart hero with several Fasts working together, that's on the level of party design and unlikely to happen in a real game.
Gee, several Fast heroes working together, that never happens... People wanting to differentiate their bullshit extra skills, totally unlikely...

Quote:
A Smart Hero can fill a productive niche
Doing what?
Quote:
if your adventures has enough MacGuffins for him to interact with.

Yes, that's right, dealing with stuff the GM pulled out his ass just to try and give the smart hero something, anything, to achieve! That isn't being productive.

There wouldn't be a star trek trivia clue inserted at all if you didn't take Knowledge(star trek), or if there was it wouldn't require the skill. So the potential of inserting lots of otherwise needless star trek "macguffins" doesn't make the "Trekkie" base class a balanced or productive addition to the party.

Quote:
And you only have to suffer 2 of his awful talents before jumping into Field Scientist.
Again, argument for class function by pointing to another class. You know what, I can jump into Field Scientist with two Fast talents instead! Though why you would jump into Field Scientist is another big question...

Quote:
Aso, I could be wrong, but AFAIK there is no occupation that will get a Fast hero into Mage or Technomage at level 3.

A) Make your own occupation, you are practically encouraged to. B) Hedge Wizard. C) Now I'll have to take a look at techno mage later as well.


Quote:
Charismatic Heroes? I guess it comes down to playstyle. I run more adventures where a Smart Hero's skills ar eneeded but I could see a campaign going the other way. They seem easier to replicate from another class though.

How are they easier to replicate? The primary talents of the charismatic class are basically Savant across several skills at once that can stack with a second instance of itself. If we apparently can't replicate a smart hero (who exists for savant) how the heck can we easily replicate a character that runs off savant++ ?

And playstyle? If your playstyle ever involves NPCs then there is a place for social skills and characters that have them. Meanwhile a place for a character who spent their level one talent on Savant (Repair) or Savant (Craft[anything, I don't care]) is pretty damn questionable. I mean "Hey Lucy the charismancer go make the guards/cultists/tourists/natives into our friends" is easy to see the use and frequency "Hey Lucy the technobitch, go spend six months crafting a rifle I can buy in five minutes" is pretty god damn weird territory for "playstyle". As for the rest of the potential playstyle solution I refer to the trekkie knowledge dilema above.

Quote:
Yeah, if your games consist of nothing but running around shooting thigns in the face, then Fast heroes, the class optimized for that, will rule.
But they aren't even supposed to be THE single class optimised for that. And if you ever enter combat, and you damn well better or you should be using a dramatically different rules set, then smart heroes for instance are going to suffer and die and not contribute.

And here is the thing the smart hero IS supposed to contribute to combat. He has abilities, like Plan and Trick that are specifically combat abilities. And they just plain suck. That goes for the other classes as well, they all have combat roles and abilities, and they are generally CRAP combat roles and abilities.

But more than that combat is the core of the system, the core of the adventure story and a relatively easy to achieve fall back solution/climax for the story. If you say "well my character just doesn't do combat" you are basically saying your character doesn't play the majority of the game.

Quote:
If there are other challenges in play -- demons that have to be stabbed with magic swords,
Er. That happens to be combat. Also. Modern game. Also, are you saying I NEED a magic sword character with a magic sword or else the GM WILL create a wonderful fun TPK adventure where we NEED magic swording expertise or we will be unable to kill the must be killed demon?

Well I say that's stupid. If the GM can add god damn out of his ass "Macguffins" to make the techy feel useful he sure as hell will be handing the gun expertise group silver bullets instead, or a magic sword challenge that just doesn't require me to have a magic swording character who burned everything he ever had for this one moment of relative glory.

Quote:
unstable deevices that need to shut down
Again similar dealio. Are you suggesting that adventures should be filled with arbitrary skill checks that REQUIRE a character with max ranks, max int and max Savant? That there must be MANY such encounters with MANY different otherwise obscure and disused skills needing to be maxed? That no alternate options, solutions or challenges are possible or should be possible? Because short of that a party of Fast characters WILL solve that problem and regard it as a pretty damn forgettable part of the "adventure".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Talisman
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1113
Location: The Cliffs of Insanity!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
And why would you? Technical skills are a massive piece of crap. Proffession, Craft and Knowledge can suck my balls they are respectively, a waste of time, so poorly written they don't function, and complete bullshit pulled out of the GMs ass. A fast hero can afford to waste some portion of their ranks on some of those skills on the off chance the GM is feeling generous about adlibbing something that actually helps you because of it but building a whole god damn character around it is the height of stupidity.

I do not want to replicate the function of a character who respectively has the ability to 1) Waste time (proffession) 2) waste even more time and give us all a headache (craft, repair) 3) artificially raise the bullshit bar to notice or understand clues and monopolize stupid hints from the GM for himself (knowledge, computer use, research).


Gonna have to disagree with you here.

Profession: Okay, this one's actually pretty useless...EXCEPT for the fact that, IIRC, d20 Modern characters check their Profession skill at every level-up to see whether their Wealth bonus increases. Wealth is d20 Moder's abstraction of...well...wealth. Instead of dealing with thousands or millions of dollars and hundreds of brain-numbing expenses, your Wealth bonus determines what lifestyle you can afford and what shinies you can purchase.

Repair: This is a skill that can open up new options to the PC who has it. Its uses are as varied as you can think of, especially in a MODERN setting with mechanical devices literally everywhere.

Knowledge: When I run RPGs, I assume at least somebody has a Knowledge skill or two. If you make a good Knowledge check, you'll get extra information; if you botch it, or if nobody can make it, you don't get the info. This is not "complete bullshit pulled out of the GMs ass," nor does it "artificially raise the bullshit bar to notice or understand clues and monopolize stupid hints from the GM."

Apparently, your playstyle assumes that the PCs automatically learn what you think they need to know, and anything beyond that is bullshit. Mine doesn't.

Computer Use/Research: Like Repair, these skills give you more options and can substitute for Knowledge skills sometimes. Have you never played in a mystery adventure? Have you never started the adventure wondering "Why the hell did the Girl Scouts just burn up all those Tickle Me Elmo dolls?" These skills are information-gathering skills, clue-finding skills. What's the alternative - sit around periodically asking them GM "Does something happen? Okay, I scratch my ass for ten minutes - how about now?"

(yes, I'm exaggerating a bit, but I trust you see my point)
_________________
MartinHarper wrote:
Babies are difficult to acquire in comparison to other sources of nutrition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Voss
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3810

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Talisman wrote:

Knowledge: When I run RPGs, I assume at least somebody has a Knowledge skill or two. If you make a good Knowledge check, you'll get extra information; if you botch it, or if nobody can make it, you don't get the info. This is not "complete bullshit pulled out of the GMs ass," nor does it "artificially raise the bullshit bar to notice or understand clues and monopolize stupid hints from the GM."


To be fair, this one does get a little vague and often fucked up. I've seen more than one GM strangle the adventure because of knowledge checks, especially when the one person who actually has the skill botches the roll.

Its often particularly bad in published adventures, because they often bury plot-critical info in those checks and the party literally can't get any farther if they don't know that shit. And if they don't own that adventure or know the setting backwards and forwards, they aren't going to. So they DM often has to either fudge the check or bullshit their way through a helpful NPC monologue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The 13 Wise Buttlords
Master


Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=14467
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orion
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3624

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, yes. If you don't think the Smart Hero's class skils are worth anything, of course the class sucks. One point for you, I guess.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PhoneLobster
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 6199

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Some advanced classes (and prestige classes, yes those are DIFFERENT in d20 modern, and that in itself is stupid) have been mentioned as things that make d20 modern and some of the terrible base classes in it OK.

Before we do look at these classes lets remember a few points. Sure you can get into like ANY advanced class as your fourth level. But each base class is 10 levels long, and you are SUPPOSED to mix and match them with multi-classing for fun and profit. Even IF baling out after level 3 and never returning worked its still a massive failure of the system. Now if baling out of crap town and not going back ALSO doesn't work then we have some REAL problems.

So, anyway, lets look at some of these classes. (By the way, I don't have d20 past and the SRD site kindly linked lacks it as well, suffice it to say I declare it sucky without even looking with total confidence)

Field Scientist
The requirements are poorly written but what they mean to say is that you need 6 ranks in three different skills. All of which are mediocre bullshit skills or non functional craft skills. Basically this means "level 3, burn more ranks than you want to waste and probably your occupation choice"

It offers the poorest BAB, actual average HD (what the heck? d8's? Don't they want to make me SUFFER like the Smart class tech bitch I'm supposed to be?), poorest defence AND poorest reputation progressions (nooo, my reputation!). And you get good Ref and Fort saves (WTF Wooo!) Just to prove the Smart hero has too many skill ranks you get less, or maybe that and the slightly shrunken skill list is just to punish you with administration difficulties and insufficient ranks to maintain the same skills at max because you dared to stop being the Smart class's bitch.

Class Abilities
OK feats first. You will be getting only 3 bonus feats through your advanced career. They will come in at the earliest at character levels 6, 9 and 12. The feats are a bunch of dumb skill bonus feats... and Archaic Weapons Proficiency, Combat Expertise, Personal Fire Arms Prof. and Point Blank Shot. Now hands up who sees a problem with taking your proficiency and combat feat tree entry point feats that late in your career? Hands up who's wondering why scientists are getting swording proficiency over say, anything else?

Smart Defense lets you add your intelligence bonus on top of your defence in addition to dex. That's actually pretty cool and its the first level bonus. But let's remember, you are SUPPOSED to enter this class from smart hero and the defence progression once you here also sucks. The additional bonus only makes you break even with Fast. At best.

Scientific Improvisation is what this class is about. You pretend to be macguyver and build a temporary assault tank out of a flash light a bent spoon and some baking powder. And it does infact only require a can of beans and a piece of string and does only take one round... But since this is clearly smart techy territory the bitch slapping starts raining on down on you. It costs an action point (your abilities will be expensive, bitch) it only lasts Class Level rounds (take more levels of field scientist, bitch) then breaks forever and can't be repaired (Investing in repair will not reduce action point cost or reproduce a lucky success, not even once, bitch). Oh and you can't make single use items because, um, they are much more complex or something (actually its because the crafting DC might be so low you can actually do it, and we can't have that, bitch). It only works IN and during an encounter (can't build escape machines unless the guards are allowed to shoot you, bitch) and its a full round action (don't walk and chew gum, bitch)

And here is the real kicker. The rule states...
D20modern SRD wrote:
...with a Craft check that corresponds to the function desired, bitch...

Yes. And there are seven different craft skills. Fortunately you only really need 3 or 4 to make stuff unless you want a quick in combat novel or oil painting (or video camera or decoy or drugs or poison or, look OK maybe you might want all seven, but still, take Mechanical). So anyway you don't actually get to make ANYTHING unless you REALLY take craft skills like a craft bitch (and remember only ONE of the useless skills that you needed to enter this class was a craft skill). But the sting in this ones tail is this bit of the text
D20modern SRD wrote:
The DC for the Craft check is equal to 5 + the purchase DC of the object that most closely matches the desired function. Bitch.

Oh that doesn't seem so bad, so what is the DC for me to build a Tank then... 52 (assuming the military restriction doesn't apply to make it higher). Ah.
Well? An armoured car? 39 A light aircraft? 41 Maybe caravan? 33 Would you believe a jet ski? 29

OK maybe I'm not really meant to make things for EVERY situation, maybe I'm just supposed to build like a Rocket launcher or something...
Woohoo, rocket launcher, 20 no wait, it's single fucking use... Heavy machine gun is 27 though. And I can probably build rifles and pistols in the twenties pretty easy.

But... The party HAS guns already. And I could just buy a fucking heavy machine gun. I mean this is ability is like a giant neon sign begging the GM to take my fucking stuff so my class ability can look useful.

Unless I CAN build a tank, or a helicopter or something, you know something for a really big situation which might save the whole party and get us the hell out of (or blasts the hell out of) something fast enough that the fact that it breaks in just 2 to 10 rounds won't be an issue.

So how big is my craft skill bonus? If I do it like I'm told to I'm level 5 when I get this with max ranks, 3 levels of smart and savant, probably also a +2 bonus from some dumb skill feat to and +4 int bonus to boot. SO. I have... +17. Wow, I CAN build the machine gun. The 50% of the time that I don't fail and waste an action along with an action point... As long as I took Craft Mechanical instead of Electronic (or as well as) for my suck smart levels bitch specialization.

SO I now desperately level up to 12 level to add 7 more smart levels for the biggest savant bonus I can get. NOW I get +32 I can build a tank on a natural 20! And I'm only level 12, and it only lasts TWO WHOLE ROUNDS before breaking forever. So I invest 8 more field scientist levels, bringing me to a less than 50% chance of succeeding at the tank, but now at least it lasts 10 rounds, at level 20...

Of course. I don't actually DRIVE the tank. That would be stupid, I lack the stats, the BAB, etc... I give it to some other fool to actually do the fun bit. I mean I'm just a fucking occasional temporary Tank delivery system.

ANYWAY on to the third class ability. Skill master. Holy crap you can just barely take 10 on tank building at 20th level it does very little until then, but whoohoo.

Minor breakthrough gives you a narrow reputation bonus, that probably doesn't even make up for a fairly poor base. And a noticable wealth bonus, allowing you to get closer to buying items just to remind you how shit your massively expensive ability to temporarily build some of them is.

Smart survival is... you can pay an action point to reduce damage of an attack (possible not even one anything to do with you) by your int bonus. Can you do this multiple times? How does it effect blasts with multiple targets? When does it happen? Do I care? Probably not since its small and runs off fucking action points (you the ones you NEED for tank attempts). Enemies just say whatever and shoot you a second time since your defence sucks and you waste all your actions failing to build tanks.

Smart weapon lets you nominate ONE proficient weapon you can operate with one hand to get your Int bonus instead of dex or strength to attack. I hearby cut off my left arm and nominate TANK. But unfortunately I still don't care and it's still better to let someone else operate it.

Major breakthrough, the "crapstone" ability... gives me... +2 rep. Oh and more wealth so I can buy stuff instead of using my pitiful crafting abilities.

What it is supposed to do to save d20 modern
Field scientist is supposed to let you be macguyver. It is supposed to give some giant mystical reward to investing like a bitch in Smart Hero.

And... it sucks. You get the ability to build stuff you should have anyway. Really big stuff is basically so high DC that its just ludicrous and none of it lasts long anyway. If a class level 2+ field scientist joined my party I would shoot him in the fucking head so he wouldn't encourage the GM to keep taking all my god damn equipment just so the idiot could build me a hunting rifle out of soup cans.

Doing it Fast
If for reasons beyond my understanding you really wanted to be in this class you could enter it from Fast at level 3 by taking the Technician occupation. You would potentially suffer from the lack of savant if you ever wanted to use the Scientific Improvisation ability to do anything more exciting than build a rifle inferior to the one you already own. But that's OK because you only entered the class because you had high Int anyway and a technical fluff background and you left after taking only one level for the quick saves boost and +int to defence. And even then you wonder if it was worth it.

Field Officer
OK firstly this is from D20 future, a splat book expansion that actually made d20modern massively and obviously WORSE just by existing. And that took quiet some effort. But lets not be biased against it just for that.

Entry requires +2 BAB. Which is basically just an "up yours bitch" to Smart and Charismatic characters. Which is really fricking weird because the class claims to be intended for charismatic characters to take.

It also wants you to have 6 ranks in diplomacy (OK, sure) and reminds you that you took personal fire arms proficiency as your very first feat because you aren't a fucking moron. And if wants 6 ranks in Knowledge(Tactics) which may as well read Knowledge(Fuck you bitch) for all the use that will ever be.

You get a better than good save and two poor saves. And the better than good save is Will (congratulations your 10 times exploded massive damaged corpse resisted mind control for the first time ever today!) You get average hit points, average skill points and a skill list that has nothing you want on it other than a few social skills. You get full BAB and a good defence progression. And your reputation is apparently OK (Stop the press!).

Class Abilities
Your bonus feats include a fair number of actually useful feats. You will actually use them, if the other class abilities are so good they keep you in the class with the poor fort and ref save progressions. But anyway Renown is on the list and oddly you are probably just going to take that again and again.

You remember the shit improved aid another talent that dedicated heroes got? Well your entry point class ability is a confusing version of that where you yell at people and make checks to add your charisma bonus instead of just aiding another. It's questionable if this has ANY real value, it certainly isn't fun.

At level two, once per day (bitch) for a single round (bitch) by declaring it in advance (bitch) you can add +1 to your defence (and damn well like it, bitch). That's actually a 1/2 class level bonus so it grows, slowly, and I don't care, but that's just a reminder to stay in the god damn class (bitch).

At level 4 you FINALLY get a use for Knowledge(tactics). It gives you the ability to never do anything in combat ever again. Instead you know spend a full round action EVERY round trying to add your reputation bonus to all allies attacks OR all allies defence (can't mix and match bitch). As long as they can hear AND see you (sing and dance, bitch). Just for that one round you do it in (keep doing it bitch).

Now this starts out probably at about a 50% success rate so you spend about 50% of your turns doing nothing at all, but it will get better and in only about 10 levels (or similar investment) you will be doing nothing productively 100% of your time. But its a pretty good bonus when actually goes off. Well. an OK bonus when it actually goes off, I mean it's SUPPOSED to start out at +5 because you are supposed to be a 4charismatic 4Field officer character. But since you are actually a 3Fast 4Field officer its really only +3. This ability will probably also mean you spend every feat for your entire career on reputation bonuses depending on how many times you are allowed to take renown and add +3 to this bonus, as far as I can tell, as many times as you have feats.

Oh, and this attack/defence bonus ability you exist to do doesn't work on you (not that you have actions any more anyway) but at least you know people can shoot you very easily and will since you are making it hard for them to shoot everyone else (so die, bitch)

August leadership kicks in at 5th to add additional bonuses to your funky chicken version of aid another. Since any ability that actually let YOU do something would be far too cool for you to be allowed to have in this class.

At seventh level as a 10th level character (or 11th if you were a bitch and entered from charismatic like they told you to) They give you your actions back. Well. Actually you STILL need to use your standard action to give out bonuses, but now you can, like, walk around while everyone shoots you for doing that.

Commanding presence at 8th level is two abilities, neither of which care much about. The offensive one (and it is offensive) lets you jump through bitch hoops to apply shaken to an enemy (who you could be shooting and who WILL be shooting you) and prevents you from being the radiant beacon of +5to20million defence/attack so it won't happen often. The healing ability lets you clear status effects off your allies. But it also prevents you from beaming out bonuses from your ass so you probably do that about once in every never at all.

Action Trust as cap stone ability lets the field officer spend action points (just remember I hate you action points) for DOUBLE VALUE. Which is... OK. But only he spends them on SOMONE ELSES ACTION. (No actions for you, bitch). Oh and you can become action point bank central as everyone else invests their action points in your savings acount for 100% interest. You do not profit from this unless you embezzle from them at 50% loss until THEY start shooting you as well.

What it is supposed to do to save d20 modern
It's supposed to make your group really good. And it certainly makes them pretty damn good. Depending on repeat takings of the Renown feat it might make you off the RNG good. As a group. But it makes one character literally do nothing for the rest of his career. The bonus probably makes up for that but you are going to have to keep getting fresh field officers as they are going to die in every second combat.

But anyway, the point is YOU do not want to play this class, ever, you want someone else to, and they are going to need to keep rolling up clones. And that all sucks.

Doing it Fast
You actually get in faster with fast than with the recommended charismatic. But you might actually be a charismatic bitch just for the rep. But then again you NEED defence bonus while you stand there granting bonuses to your allies by yelling out "Shoot me I am the unprotected helpless source of their powers! SHOOT ME PLEASE LET ME DIE! SHOOT MEEEEE!"

Eh, like it matters what class this is, you never DO anything...

Anyway. I might do some more of the advanced classes later, including mage and techno mage, and shadow chaser with holy knight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PhoneLobster
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 6199

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Talisman wrote:
Profession: Okay, this one's actually pretty useless...EXCEPT for the fact that, IIRC, d20 Modern characters check their Profession skill at every level-up to see whether their Wealth bonus increases. Wealth is d20 Moder's abstraction of...well...wealth.

Look, I KNOW what the wealth bonus is. And I know that it is a total balls up. The implementation is, really poor. As a GM you will struggle with making excuses about not raising wealth bonus every time the players find a suit case full of case or anything of any remotely high wealth DC. Especially because from time to time you WILL want to boost their wealth bonuses because the fucking things deplete in not entirely productive ways.

I don't give a flying crap about any interaction between profession and the Wealth system because the d20 modern wealth system is about as dysfunctional as the regular d20 economy. The interaction is meaningless because you are going to be fudging wealth anyway. And if you aren't then its meaningless because wealth will be totally broken anyway.

Quote:
Repair: This is a skill that can open up new options to the PC who has it. Its uses are as varied as you can think of, especially in a MODERN setting with mechanical devices literally everywhere.

OK, I can only assume this is what comes from NOT reading actual skill descriptions. The repair skill lets you repair things in very specific ways. And those ways SUCK. And that is all it does. If you use repair to do things "as varied as you can think of" I'm sorry but you are just making shit up.

Quote:
Knowledge: When I run RPGs, I assume at least somebody has a Knowledge skill or two. If you make a good Knowledge check, you'll get extra information; if you botch it, or if nobody can make it, you don't get the info.

OK, what the hell is this info? Is it important? Because if it isn't then what the hell are you going on about because that means the "info" and therefore knowledge skills are just plain meaningless window dressing.

OR it is important which means you are using knowledge skills as bullshit "you must be this tall or I won't let you keep playing" checks. Which is stupid because the one thing you can't do (without being a total asshole of a failed GM) is just plain punish people for having characters that lack Knowledge (Star Trek), or even just rolling poorly when they checked it.

Quote:
Apparently, your playstyle assumes that the PCs automatically learn what you think they need to know, and anything beyond that is bullshit. Mine doesn't.

No, yours does as well, you just don't know it yet. Ask yourself. What happens when they fail a spot a clue check to notice the blood splatters on the floor? If the answer is anything other than "The adventure is over, I tell the players they lose and we all stop playing" then that means the PCs go on to learn something else, do something else, and otherwise somehow advance the adventure regardless.

The variations of events within that are utterly meaningless. What the heck are you going to do throw more monsters at them? Less? Which result of the spot a clue check does which? Do we care? If the players knew the result which would they choose? Does it matter? You can't go outside of the bounds of basic challenge limitations, you can't just end the game and if you just tell the players "Well you just lost because you failed a knowledge (Yo'Momma) check" they will punch you in the face.

Quote:
Computer Use/Research:

Look Research is just A) Knowledge again with the same bullshit or B) A check you just failed to find a clue you knew was in there that you asked the GM about. Which makes it A) bullshit and B) just plain counter productive to mystery adventures.

Computer use is just research, again, but only on computers. With a bit of disable device, but only on computers, and probably with higher DCs, times and resolution complexity.

Like most skills in d20 they are poorly executed in every regard and investing in them is a highly questionable endeavour. I'd rather NOT have a computer use guy in the party on the off chance it actually encourages the GM to spend more time trying to use the really crap computer use rules as implemented. And if he doesn't and he just uses them stuff "as varied as you can think" then again, he is just making shit up. Which he really didn't NEED the skill ranks to do now did he?

Quote:
Have you never played in a mystery adventure?

Half the games I run are mysteries. Here is the most important thing you will ever learn about running a mystery.

The players MUST solve the mystery, even if that occasionally means feeding it to them with a fucking spoon.

Because the one rule you just can't break in delivering a functional gaming session is the adventure MUST progress, and if the adventure is all about solving a mystery, then that's the only way it will progress.

Quote:
What's the alternative - sit around periodically asking them GM "Does something happen? Okay, I scratch my ass for ten minutes - how about now?"

And that is exactly where you end up if you hold the game play to ransom with knowledge skills the players didn't actually invest in.

Day 1: Saw girl scouts, made Knowledge(Jim Henson) check. Failed. Sat on ass.
Day 2: Saw girl scouts, made Knowledge(Jim Henson) check. Failed. Sat on ass.
...Day 100: Saw girl scouts, made Knowledge(Jim Henson) check. Failed. Sat on ass.
Day 101: Saw girl scouts, made Knowledge(Jim Henson) check. Passed. Adventure begins.

I'm suggesting that whether the players pass a knowledge(Jim Henson) check, go over and Diplomacy the girls, or Gather Info about the scouts, or sneak after them to see their other activities, or shoot them, or just plain ask them what's going on. Or even shrug and go do something else until something they can work with is presented. The adventure WILL continue. From day one.

And though many of the paths mentioned may use skills the actual one the players will use will be one they can actually succeed in and THEY will present it to YOU based on their character's abilities and their own choices.

So it doesn't matter WHICH skills they actually have, so having an entire character dedicated exclusively to adding some set of additional skills to the party just, DOESN'T MATTER. Because not having him just means you do something else to advance the adventure and you will have plenty of options without HAVING to add the option "I repair the broken tickle me elmo for the next 42 hours and hope I make a DC 40 skill check, does anyone have wealth 20+ to buy spare alien android parts for me?".

If you sit there being a bitch demanding they go down the Knowledge (Jim Henson)_ path, especially if they don't actually HAVE that skill then you are a total idiot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hey_I_Can_Chan
Master


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 247
Location: Garden Grove, CA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Note: Yeah, I'm still pitching Spycraft. What, you haven't converted yet? You're an ass.

The Spycraft versions of the field scientist and the field officer classes are Spycraft's expert classes of inventor and tactician.

I'm none too fond of the inventor. Really, compared to Spycraft's other hitter scholarly expert classes like field analyst and schemer, the inventor's second tier, but it still sounds better than that field scientist shit. You have to have Wis out the ass to be an inventor. You can produce Wis-modifier-per-mission doohickeys that grant a +1 (at level 1), +2 (at level 5), or +3 (at level 9) unnamed bonus to skill checks using the doohickey, which may not sound like much, but since the system is designed to work with the RNG, the bonuses are important... and they last the rest of the mission, no matter how many sessions that might be. At level 2 you can make 1 item less prone to catastrophic failure, or, at level 7, make 2 items less prone or 1 item way less prone, which is useful in that it prevents the inventor's gun from blowing up in his face or his scalpel snapping in the middle of surgery. At level 3, you can start building wacky crap in the field with those doohickeys... these things are limited by size, not by DC, but also by arbitrarium; it also takes minutes to do, and the item breaks like glass, but since Spycraft gear does stuff, it's often worth it. Level 4 gives you your first combat power of being able to grab someone's gun and take it apart while he's holding it, which is kind of cool. Level 4 also halves your time to do awesome mechanical and electrical bullshit, which is also awesome. Level 6 lets you whip out something bitchen from nowhere once per session and keep it for the mission, which is cool, and at level 10 you can do this twice per session. Level 8 has you almost never failing the electronics and mechanics checks. Level 8 also provides you second combat power of making you a badass with a weapon (not just gun despite the class feature name smartgun) you've built or modified. Level 10 also halves the time it takes you to build shit.

It's okay, but it's lack of bonus feats (despite two feats mandated by the class) makes it more linear than it probably should be. Thing is, it's designed so anyone could take it as it has ridiculously low entry requirements. Only the faceman, scout, and soldier can't easily start taking the class as their 5th level, but even they can with the right feats or origin (profession in d20 Modern). So anyone can be Macguyver if he really wanted to be. As it should be, I guess.

I'm tired and not gonna detail the tactician. Maybe later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PhoneLobster
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 6199

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Magic Swording Is Not A Modern Adventure Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And now more d20 modern classes I hate. Let me count the ways.

Shadow Chaser
OK so there is not actually a class called “Shadow Chaser” I'm pretty sure he means “Shadow Slayer”. The first thing to note is it is from the campaign specific Urban Arcana rules in the optional “FX” section of d20 modern. This means in a system where advance classes are optional and approved on a case by case basis Shadow chaser is ALSO even more optional requiring an optional specific setting or migration there from.

So entry into shadow chaser is pretty easy +3 BAB and Archaic Weapons proficiency. It's sad that you have to waste a feat on swords in a modern setting but maybe you want to be the historical anachronism guy.

The slayer, get this, has best BAB, all “good” saves, good defense bonus progression. Average hit die. Slightly better skill ranks than Fast and a passable skill list. So as we all know “the slayer” is clearly Buffy.

But you get poor reputation progression. Apparently being fundamentally better on all the numbers makes you less interesting and famous in the hero scene.

Class Abilities
OK so bonus feat wise the slayer is all melee junk. So you had BETTER be keen on the swording vs the gunfighting angle.

The first ability is a rather complex “detect a monster” dealio. Utterly underpowered in most modern games, massively overpowered in a scooby doo monster mystery and basically interchangeable with infra red goggles in a setting like the one Urbana Arcana actually describes. Of course to work outside of Urbanana Arcananana at all it actually needs a bit a ad libbing but, we get the idea.

The second level ability is damage reduction vs monster natural attacks only, and its half class level (remember to take class levels, bitch). So anyway thats only 1 point when you get it. And five at tenth class level. There are monsters when you GET the ability with a bigger BONUS to their damage rolls than what you will reduce 8 levels later...

Your 4th level ability is to take a full round action to make your weapon (and specifically a MELEE weapon, no magic gun for you, bitch, and shut up about fucking Hellsing, I don't care if you have a red hat, gee) Anyway to make your magic with a +1/2 class level bonus (you get the idea, bitch). But only for class level rounds (track the duration Bitch, be grateful while it lasts). So, if you are magic swording focused guy and the GM refuses to give you an actual magic sword (and since he is making you play d20modern PLUS urbane arcana why the hell wouldn't he?) you can sort of take one out on a short term loan.

The 5th AND 7th level abilities are basically ranger favored enemy bonuses vs various monsters. And we know how much everyone LOVES rangers for favored enemy bonuses...

At 8th level you actually get something remarkable good. Fast healing for half class level hit points a round. And think, you are ONLY a level 12 character to get this! (but frankly that's pretty damn good for modern, I mean it may well not save you from CR 12 monsters, but it'll fail to do so by less than the alternative options will)

Then at tenth level you get the ability to consecutively spend your standard action and an action point each round to indefinitely stun lock (monsters only, but ALL of them in 15 feet). Without a save. Or any roll. I say stun lock, it can actually do things OTHER than daze, but it only dazes monsters with 12+ hit die and you are a level 14 character at this point... Still I think I should remind you of a little song.
Quote:
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!


What it is supposed to do to save d20 modern
OK so this is supposed to make being a strong hero “worth it” but you can enter the class as a fast hero like ONE level behind and be otherwise superior SURE you are then one level behind in the race to get the capstone power, arguably one of the most powerful things I've seen in d20 modern. But it's run off mother fucking action points, not available to level 13/14 and the way it is written to work just makes you ask WTF? Really? Is this some sort of lame joke?

Still this class functions on bonuses alone. It's boring as shit until you get the level 8 and 10 abilities but you will have lots of bonuses. But in the rare combination of high level d20 modern, advanced class approval, obscure campaign setting use, GM laxity toward classes with freaky bullshit stunlocks and obscure conjunctions of planets that would be required to see this class in the light of day taking it wouldn't be stupid.

But really, not EVERY character can take this without the group feeling sad and drab and stripped of choice. I mean even more so than Fast as this is a somewhat narrower less customizable class (can you believe it).

This doesn't save d20 modern, it isn't even especially modern at all, but if you are LUCKY it saves once character. Eventually. As long as he stabs things.

Doing it Fast
And yes. Like I said. Enter this one level later than strong with Fast and be in all ways superior. Congratulations on making the right choice.

Unholy Knight
OK. So this one is ANOTHER Urban Arcana specific class. And another, “hey, magic swording happening here, what is this “modern” you speak of?” class. But even better this is an ACTUAL prestige class. That's right, a third tier of classes even more optional and obscure again! And different to any tier available in core just to screw with your head.

Entry is HARD (for d20 modern) you need BAB +8, 9 ranks in Diplomacy (whatever, I'm cool with that), 9 Ranks in Knowledge (anything you feel like, we just want to see a commitment to study), and 9 Ranks in Gather Information (fuck knows why, they just want you to prove you have the ability to frivolously spend ranks or something). You also need to be either good or evil. Which is essentially an opportunity to beg the GM to screw you over with the schizophrenic alignment bullshit and paladin code of conduct bullshit you thought you had left behind in regular d20.

So then you get TWO better than good saves (one of which is Will so we don't care), best BAB, d10 hit die, average skill ranks, a passable skill list, moderate reputation and poor defense progression.

Also. The class is only five levels long. But, that's OK.

Class Abilities
You get no bonus feats at all.

You get divine spell casting, and as a minimum 13th level character you will get access to the best spells of your knighting career with 1 3rd level spell per day. And no, they aren't any better than 3rd level spells in d20 regular, relatively worse even.

Then you get all the basic paladin abilities bar Francis The Talking Mule. You know, divine grace, lay on hands, turn undead, detect guy you are allowed/required to beat up, smite guy you are allowed/required to beat up, and of course, the get screwed out of your class abilities ability.

And no, none of those are particularly remarkable abilities.

What it is supposed to do to save d20 modern
It's supposed to make strong heroes good and make d20 modern games work. And oddly enough inviting about 5 levels of scruffy paladin hand me downs to the party totally underwhelms me.

You find yourself wondering why you waited a minimum of eight levels for THIS? If the requirement was “be zero level” you MIGHT take it and be glad.

Oh and the smite ability is melee based just to make you hate life and still not be the vampire from Hellsing.

Doing it Fast
The BAB requirement is crippling. But then you can be Fast for 3 levels, take ANYTHING that offers full BAB then get in only one level late after nine levels. And again be a lot better than a Strong 8 who entered before you, or a strong 3/whatever you were 5 who entered before you as well.

But then you ask the question what full BAB advanced class were you that sucked so much you felt like taking a vacation in Paladin pants?

Both of these classes together
OK so there was some suggestion THE place to be at was Strong 3+Shadow Slayer 5+Holy Knight Whatever. Or some other combination thereof.

And frankly... The only bit of that that is good is the Shadow Slayer and you want to be in that 'till end if you can because that's where the few actual abilities are at, not bailing for fricking Holy Knight levels.

So color me both unimpressed as well as uncertain as to why the combo was so strongly endorsed.

Later maybe the mages, and maybe some surprise additions or something.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Psychic Robot
Prince


Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 4601

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To be fair, the unholy knight is a PrC, which amounts to "late game characters" in d20 Modern. Also, d20 Modern is low magic, which means that a fireball does as much damage as a rocket launcher.
_________________
Count Arioch wrote:
I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:
Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

You do not seem to do anything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JonSetanta
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 5078
Location: interbutts

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
If I were dedicated, and I must be to write this much shit about d20 modern, and if I have already taken my Skill Emphasis and either Faith or Aware AND an additional 2 levels of Dedicated Hero, like the bitch I must be to do that I can recover by taking Cool Under Pressure to nominate a bunch of skills I can take 10 on.


Phone G. Lobster
Dedicated Human

Level, Class Ability
1. Skill Emphasis: Spot RPG Fail
2. Meticulous
3. Aware

Feats: (L1) Bitchmoan, (L3) Bawww


Thanks for the review. It's ... extensive ... but provides details in to the specific failures of d20 Modern, and as to why you hate it as if it stole your wallet. Very helpful to beginning Moderners picking the right hero type or in deterring would-be new Moderners.

IMO the best option for the 6-class split would be to mash them together and let players advance talents at a rate of 1:1 level. They would also choose bonuses such as BAB, defense, reputation, saves, and so on.
Oh, shit, there's that classless stuff again.
_________________
My fiction blog and novelette

FrankTrollman wrote:
Scaling feats were just a bad idea. I'm sorry I wrote them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Voss
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3810

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Psychic Robot wrote:
To be fair, the unholy knight is a PrC, which amounts to "late game characters" in d20 Modern. Also, d20 Modern is low magic, which means that a fireball does as much damage as a rocket launcher.


Right. Which means you should just go buy/steal/make a rocket launcher, and not bother with the spell. Low magic doesn't mean that magic should be the same crap that anyone can do with a couple bucks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Psychic Robot
Prince


Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 4601

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Personally, I think that having the ability to shoot the equivalent of rockets from one's fingertips is pretty damn awesome.
_________________
Count Arioch wrote:
I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:
Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

You do not seem to do anything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion... All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group