Skip Vs. Warlocks

[User3]

It's quite decent, but it is accomplished far more effectively by having Charm Monster, Suggestion, and other enchantment spells. Honestly, the warlock is better served by using Deceive Item to accomplish this than he is by losing caster levels and invocations to do so.

What items? Do you really expect someone to make and blow through scrolls, wands, and staves just to keep a few monsters around? The first time you run into a month or two of in-game downtime you've just blown through a staff or a wand to keep those cool monsters from the last adventure. The number of times you have to recast Charm to keep a single monster for any period of time is prohibitively expensive.

That’s a non-starter of an idea if ever I've heard of one.

You know, I've never, not even once, seen the duration of Charm Monster expire on a target who was still alive. This is probably due to the fact that Charm Monster lasts a minimum of seven days and if you can cast it, you get to do so at least once/day, and likely at least twice that if you really want to.

Sure, knowing the limitations of Charms, people tend to Charm the same kind of monsters: stupid low Will save combat fodder that dies in the next battle (or next few battles).

Permanent Charm allows for a whole new class of monster to be gained. I mean, once you take a monster to "unconscious", it fails its saves. That means that with a permanent Charm, you can get the high Will save, high SR monsters/NPCs that can not only be reused, but can be sent on their own missions for extended periods of time. Want to investigate a cave complex, but need to leave a protector with the refugee caravan? You're set. Need someone to go to the Empress and pick up new instructions? You've got it. Need a semi-permanent guardian or researcher or magic item creator while you go and adventure, or a Raise Dead monkey to back up the party as needed? Need a monster that can wait outside the cave complex and still be there when you return? Need a scout to find the enemy army while you organize the defense of the castle?

The possibilities are endless, and all can only be done with a Permanent Charm.

On the flip side, I have seen characters attempt to have multiple Charmed minions on the board.

I have also seen characters attempt to charm Huge or larger creatures.

I'm going to need a little clarification here, because I'm missing your point.

I said that Eternal Charm is worse than Charm Monster as an ability to add on to your existing character; and I also said that Mindbender levels 2+ are worse as levels to add on to your existing character than more levels in the core class you used to have.

It really depends on when you go Mindbender. If you go straight Mindbender at level 7 and on, you are in fact sacrificing the Greater Invocations, which are way cool, and you are losing the 12th level ability to make any item in the game. That’s pretty big, but the payoff of an uber-powerful monster at level 11 might be worth it (like a level 11 Wizard, or an Adult Dragon, or a 12 HD Elite Succubus or Hezrou). Maybe. It depends a lot on whether your DM is a “one big monster” guy or a “many smaller monsters” guy.

Like Frank's Pokemaster, you have to just feel good that your pet is the star and you are the guy in the background that yells "Surf attack!" Combined with Charm items, you can have the "cool keepers" gained via class abilities, and "combat fodder" gained via items, all mixed into your possie, and you are good to go.

However, if you take Mindbender at 13+ levels, you lose nothing of value. By 20th level, you are down a sum total of two Invocations (one being gained at 20th level, so its really just one) and access to the Dark Invocations. After reviewing the Dark invocations, I have to say that there is nothing that is a "must have" in the whole list. Warlocks get the best and most useful stuff in the Greater Invocation set, and missing out on one or two Dark Invocations is not a sacrifice at all. Path of Shadows is the only good ability in the Dark set, and by the time you get it at 18th level the whole party will have better means of travel.

You are also down a total of 2d6 on your Eldritch blast, which is fine because it stopped being a viable attack around 9th level (to be very generous). The last die would be gained on your 20th level of Warlock, so once again it is basically being down a single d6.

In exchange, you get abilities that actually do something. Three permanent Charms, a weak Detect Thoughts 4/day, Dominate Monster (Large or smaller), and a Suggestion effect 3/day, and a party face skill set with a +4 to four good skills. Any one of these is more useful to a Warlock's role of "ability user" than any of the Dark Invocations.

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I look forward to your counter arguments.

[Murtak]

Do you really expect someone to make and blow through scrolls, wands, and staves just to keep a few monsters around? The first time you run into a month or two of in-game downtime you've just blown through a staff or a wand to keep those cool monsters from the last adventure. (snip) That means that with a permanent Charm, you can get the high Will save, high SR monsters/NPCs that can not only be reused, but can be sent on their own missions for extended periods of time. Want to investigate a cave complex, but need to leave a protector with the refugee caravan? You're set. Need someone to go to the Empress and pick up new instructions? You've got it.

The possibilities are endless, and all can only be done with a Permanent Charm.

Or, say, planar binding.

Still, eternal charm does have it's uses. It is just that those uses are not strictly better, and in many situations worse, than being able to charm multiple monsters. And apart from that, when you give up multiple caster levels or invocations you should get something better than a once-per-day 7th level effect (and that is being generous).

As to taking mindbender levels later on, apart from ruining your diplomacy-warlock concept, that only shows how weak the higher warlock levels are, not how good the mindbender is.

[Username17]

Why is taking levels 2+ of Mindbender even under consideration for anybody? Mindbender was 1 level long in 3e, and in 3.5 it's still one level long.

Eternal Charm just isn't impressive. Charm Monster already lasts 7+ days, and you can recast it. The Charm Invocation also lasts over a week and can be recast on one target any number of times.

In order to qualify for Mindbender, you already have the Charm Invocation, which means that you don't care.

-Username17

[User3]

Or, say, planar binding.

Which, as a Warlock, you don't have. Also, Planar Binding takes days to set up, lasts a day/level, and unlike Charm can't be recast on the same creature with any certainty. It also generally won't get you monsters with goof Will saves, good Cha, or class levels, and you are limited by HD.

I'm talking about a viable Warlock option here, not the relative merits of the different kinds of mind control.

Still, eternal charm does have it's uses. It is just that those uses are not strictly better, and in many situations worse, than being able to charm multiple monsters.

Which a Warlock can't do without a theoretical unlimited budget and XP to craft items, so this is not even an argument.....unless they take levels of Mindbender, which allows them Permanent Charms for multiple creatures/

As to taking mindbender levels later on, apart from ruining your diplomacy-warlock concept, that only shows how weak the higher warlock levels are, not how good the mindbender is.

Well, this doesn't ruin the "party face" Warlock concept at all. Mindbender uses all the party face skills, then adds bonuses to them. Before 7th level, you can crossclass Diplomacy and add ranks into your other social skills (and must do so to get into Mindbender) and keep competitive with your big Cha. At 7th level, you do a one level dip into Mindbender to uncap Diplomacy, pour all of that level's ranks into it, and then go back to Warlock until your 14th level where your remaining levels are Mindbender. Then you are a viable party face your whole career. You aren't some crazy build with insane ranks like some of the Bard builds, but you will be very competitive with standard DnD adventures for your level.

Eternal Charm just isn't impressive. Charm Monster already lasts 7+ days, and you can recast it. The Charm Invocation also lasts over a week and can be recast on one target any number of times.

In order to qualify for Mindbender, you already have the Charm Invocation, which means that you don't care.

Right, Charm Monster cast by other classes is overall better than Warlock Charm or even Mindbender Charm, but as a viable option for Warlocks, Mindbender works.

Warlock Charm is limited to one creature; Mindbender gives a Charm effect to the Warlock that lets him keep several creatures while eliminating the need for multiple recasts. In exchange, he gives up some flavor abilities, access to the feeble Dark class of Invocations which are worse than the Greater Invocations, and one actual Invocation (unless you count the level 20 Invocation).

I'm not saying that an actual spellcaster should take Mindbender, but if you want to argue that the Warlock shouldn't do it, you need to break down some numbers and show me some examples explaining your viewpoint.

After comparing the abilities lost/gained, Mindbender is the only viable PrC for a Warlock.

[Murtak]

Ok, so using your own best case as a comparison basis you are giving up some fast healing, energy resistance, eldritch blasting, damage reduction and base attack for some thought detection, some suggestion effect 3/day and a different skill list.

You also exchange polymorph at will and some defensive ability (dark discorporation or shadow walk) for the ability to charm more than one target and a limited dominate monster effect.

At best that is a wash. I think the warlock abilities are better, but the difference is not big enough that there might not be campaigns in which having the multiple charms would be superior. And at least it does not require much in way of prerequisites. If WotC ever prints more warlock invocations it is going to be a bad deal though. After all the only reason this works at all is because the dark invocations are so crappy right now.

[User3]

Ok, so using your own best case as a comparison basis you are giving up some fast healing, energy resistance, eldritch blasting, damage reduction and base attack for some thought detection, some suggestion effect 3/day and a different skill list.

Ok, lets break this down. By going Mindbender, you lose:

---DR/3 Cold Iron; You still get DR/2 Cold Iron. At 19th level when you would get this, this amount of DR is somewhere between meaningless and unnoticable.
---Energy Resistance 10 to two types; You still get Energy Resistance 5. At level 20 when you get this, you can have it and not even realize that you are taking 5 less points of energy damage.
---Fast Healing 5 for 2 mins. 1/day, but you do get Fast Healing 1 for 2 mins 1/day. Now, thats a difference of 60 HP a day cured(between two battles, as its not fast enough to matter in a battle). This amount of healing is equal to two Cure Serious Wounds cast on yourself between battles. This is an actual ablity, but one with no tactical or stategic value. You could have Charmed an angel as a Mindbender and just have full curing for everyone between battles.
---Eldritch Blast: 9d6. Instead, you are stuck with 6d6. Now, doing 9d6 of damage at 20th level, even untyped, is very weak. If you play as a damage caster, you might as well not even play the game. The wizard has had the ability to do at least 15d6 untyped for five whole levels(Horrid Wilting or Piercing Cold Ray of Cold)
---2 points of BAB. Excuse me, are you a Fighter, or even a Rogue? If you've even picked up a weapon in during your career, you've been doing the whole party a disservice. You're Eldritch Blast was good during the lower levels, and during the later levels you could still do more damage blasting that trying to be a fighter with no good Armor or Weapon Profs.
---One to two Dark Invocations. These suck.
-Baleful Polymorph is ok, except its a 5h level spell and you are expected to cast it at 17th level as a viable action. Good luck with that. The Wizard has been doing that since 9th level.
-Dark Discorporation: You get the ability to take all your magical equipment and make it nonfunctional and in exchange you get immunity to mind-affecting spells and weapon damage. This would be a great ability at like 6th level and not at 17th level, but as a class that specializes in using magic items....you've just made a pact with the devil where you think you are good but you suck.
-Path of Shadow: Weeeeee, Shadowwalking. You get the ability to leave battle. Thats it. Its own description says "useless for scouting and spying". You can also travel the planes, sorta. The Wizard and Cleric were both doing this like 7 levels ago.
--The rest are so suck I can even type them out.


You gain:
---The ability to have three more Charmed minions. Add in the combat ability, problem solving opportunities gained from their abilities, and just meatshield potential, and this is more than worth all that crap above.
---Dominate Monster. So good that even Wizards can't do it until 17th level.
---Weak Detect Thoughts: As a problem solving tool, its pretty nice.
---Bonuses to social skills(+4) and good social skill list(all): This basically makes it possible to be a party face, an important role in a a party.
---Suggestion: Pretty good, but still a 5th level ability. Sadly, as a problem solving and combat tool it beats out all the Dark Invocations.


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So yes, if the Warlock had a good Dark Invocation list, and better Greater Invocations, and real abilities, the Mindbender would not be a completely necessary PrC.

And in a world where monkeys might fly out of my ass, I'd speak Chimp. What's your point?

[User3]

Ps.

Warlock/Mindbenders also gain +2 to Fort and Will saves.

[Murtak]

Baleful Polymorph is ok, except its a 5h level spell and you are expected to cast it at 17th level as a viable action. Good luck with that. The Wizard has been doing that since 9th level.

As opposed to mindbender charming, eh?

As to the other dark invocation you miss out on - yes, there are no other good ones, as I already admitted. That is the only reason mindbender levels actually look ok. If the warlock ever gets some more invocations to choose from that will change.

Right now a warlock 13, mindbender 4 will get a single eternal charm, while a straight warlock gets polymorph at will (and has been using it before the mindbender ever gets a useful ability from his class). After that of course the warlock gets nothing, which makes it rather easy to gain something better from a couple of levels in another class.

Anyways, until the warlock gets some more useful invocations at all levels this discussion is as useful as arguing about straight fighters vs straight barbarians is - neither are useful compared to "real classes".

[User3]

I'm sorry, but you are confused on several points. Let me clear this up:

As opposed to mindbender charming, eh?

Err, Baneful Polymorph is a combat action(though craptastic), and Mindbender charming is a noncombat action that you do on Unconcious foes that don't get a save, and then you keep them forever and don't do it again. The difference is that the Mindbender Charm's spell level is irrelevant, and Warlock Baneful Polymorph is four DC lower than the average spell being tossed around.

Right now a warlock 13, mindbender 4 will get a single eternal charm, while a straight warlock gets polymorph at will (and has been using it before the mindbender ever gets a useful ability from his class). After that of course the warlock gets nothing, which makes it rather easy to gain something better from a couple of levels in another class.

First, you never take Warlock 13. Ever. It provides no abilities worth mentioning. You don't even need to take Warlock 12, but the Imbue Item ability is kinda neat. So, always assume we are talking about, at most, a Warlock 12 in any Mindbender build.

Second, Warlock get the Dark class of Invocations at level 16. I think I mistyped that earlier in the thread. So a straight Warlock gets his Baleful Polymorph at the same time as a Mindbender Warlock gets his Eternal Charm(or the Mindbender gets his one level early if he skipped Warlock 12).
The Mindbender is getting screwed Invocation-wise as he's at the beginning of the 8,9,10 progresion, but this clears up in the next four levels. In exchange, he's getting Suggestion, Telepathy, and Detect Thoughts which are very useful problem solving tools and allow the character to act in a realm the Warlock is otherwise unable to act, as well as vastly inproving any existing Charm abilities.

Third, Baleful Polymorph should not be confused with Polymorph. One is great and the other is not. This is the latter. Baleful Polymorph permanently turns a creature into a 1 HD Small Animal, and needs a Fort save to do it and a Will save to strip Ex., Sp., and Su. abilities. It also allows a +4 to the creatures save if you try to use it as a slow ass death effect(the favorite is the goldfish form), so its equivilant to casting a 1st level spell when you try that crap. At 16th level when you cast this Invocation, the high Fort Save creatures(like a Very Old White Dragon, with a base Fort of +21 and Will save of +17) will not be affected at all, and the high Will save creatures(who are the ones with loads of abilities, like a Marilith with a Fort or +19 and a Will Save of +14) will still be casting spell-likes or mindblasting or some other fool thing. Really, good luck with that. Add in basic monster equipment and self buffs, and you are looking at an attack that works 5-15% of the time at best since your Warlock is going to have a Baleful Polymorph with a DC of 21 to 23(14-18 to base Cha, with a +6 item and ll +stat level increases in Cha), with another +2 if you blow a feat on Ability Focus(Baleful Polymorph/real name of this Invocation) with your 18th level feat. Way to use a combat action.

Fourth, when the Warlock gets his Baleful Polymorph, the Mindbender is potentially rolling in with a CR 16 or CR 17 monster like a Marilith or a Very Old White Dragon. The Dragon is a +27 BAB, 31 Str beast with over 300 HPs, and the Marilith has 10 +22ish attacks, over 200 HPs and an at will Blade Barrier that does 15d6 untyped damage and turns your battlefields to the "Puree" setting when you start overlapping them onto foolios. Slap on a few buffs/items on these beasties to cover their weaknesses, and that at will Baleful Polymorph is looking pretty feeble in comparison.

Anyways, until the warlock gets some more useful invocations at all levels this discussion is as useful as arguing about straight fighters vs straight barbarians is - neither are useful compared to "real classes".

Well, I think I could argue that the straight Fighter class has some use, but thats another thread. This one already has me all tuckered out.

So yes, unless someone fundamentally rebalances Warlocks by adding better Invocations, then taking a 1/2 caster progresion class with even slightly decent abilities (like Mindbender) is the way to go after 11th or 12th level.

[Neeek]

1121031689[/unixtime]]
First, you never take Warlock 13. Ever. It provides no abilities worth mentioning. You don't even need to take Warlock 12, but the Imbue Item ability is kinda neat. So, always assume we are talking about, at most, a Warlock 12 in any Mindbender build.

<snip>

So yes, unless someone fundamentally rebalances Warlocks by adding better Invocations, then taking a 1/2 caster progresion class with even slightly decent abilities (like Mindbender) is the way to go after 11th or 12th level.

You keep saying this business about not being worth it past 11th or 12th. I'm trying to figure why you think it's even close to worth it going past *4th*. Are you under the impression that Warlocks without higher levels don't get the higher level invocations? That isn't implied anywhere. It says "A warlock gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class." Which would include access to new levels of invocations, AFAICT.

Imbue Item would be nice, I guess, but really, you should be grabbing Decieve Item and bailing out as quickly as possible. Anyone found a 4th level exit class for them?

[Username17]

The point is, Warlock's as written don't qualify for anything. The official write-up is that the Warlock Spell-like abilities don't count as spells of any level for qualifying for PrCs. So anything that has a prereq of "ability to cast 2nd level Spells" or whatever is completely off limits. That means, for those of you keeping track at home, that almost the only things in the entire universe that you qualify for out of the box are the crap from Complete Arcane like Mindbender and Acolyte of the Skin that was written to be available to Warlocks.

Personally, I think that a better option is to take a level or two of Ur Priest and use those spellcasting abilities to qualify for a prestige class that gives spellcasting levels every level.

Or get your DM to let you qualify directly by using those abilities to just qualify for PrCs with spellcasting requirements.

-Username17

[User3]

You keep saying this business about not being worth it past 11th or 12th. I'm trying to figure why you think it's even close to worth it going past *4th*. Are you under the impression that Warlocks without higher levels don't get the higher level invocations? That isn't implied anywhere.

Its worse than not implied...is not described at all. You can make two equally valid arguments:

1. People get the new classes of of invocations and the number of invocations known goes up with new spellcasting levels.

2. You just get the increased number of invocations with new spellcasting levels.

When making arguments, I always assume that calls like that are not in my favor.

Anyone found a 4th level exit class for them?

My vote is actually for single class Rogue. UMD works well with Rogues, and the Invocations add to a Rogue's role more than anyone else's. Having an untyped ray is also nice for doing Spring Attack/Sneak Attack on creatures with high DR or AC. Loosing the 2d6 Sneak is harsh, but a dip into Spellthief and Assasin can make that 2d6 up for you in one level each if you really needed it (for a price of 1-2 BAB, depending on your Rogue level).

If you are going for the "Warlocks get new classes of Invocations and new Invocations" route, you can go Wildmage for 10 levels, Blood Mage for 4 levels, and Mindbender for 1 level and fill out your entire 20 levels with full progression. A single level dip into Wizard can get you into classes that only require 1st level spells like Earth Dreamer. These PrCs don't have great abilities, but they are better than straight Warlock class features.