Pathfinder: the Lowdown

[Heath Robinson]

No adhering to physics wouldn't allow for anyone to leap hundreds of feat in the air.

No I couldn't just say that it was a matter of fluff because quite a number of abilities are just too mystical to be used. You keep bringing up super high jumps =flight which it does not. You get to jump but you have to come back down (potential falling damage). You can't hover, maneuver, etc through jumping. You can jump up and come down that's it. You can jump can't you? Does that mean you can levitate as well? Common sense + consistency

Its not as great of a stretch to think that at higher levels fighters and barbarians become paragons of fighting and strength, speed, and fortitude. I mean Jesus that's what you'd expect when you hear the word fighter or barbarian. Is it too much to think that maybe the game mechanics should adhere to this dynamic? I mean its not as if I'm saying they can't use magic. Pick up some fucking boots of flying or some shit if you think you need to fly. Doesn't seem like that hard of an idea to grasp.

-My mistake UN I should be quoting the "Fighters can't have nice things" he keeps spamming. That is my mistake.

So you've stated that Fighters aren't allowed anything "too awesome", then. It may be a non-standard definition of "too awesome" but it is, nonetheless, such a definition.

In the standard D&D cosmology your soul separates from your body when you die and goes off to live another life in a plane, or something. So we have these fantastical elements that are basic aspects of the way the universe works, but you can't stomach the idea that being really good with a weapon can grant you an elightenment that would allow you to rebuke the touch of gravity?

[Voss]

-My mistake UN I should be quoting the "Fighters can't have nice things" he keeps spamming. That is my mistake.

I think the point is you've 'logically reasoned' yourself into a corner (actually a circle, which is even better) that you can't get out of. You've essentially stated that non-mystic people can't do much more than real people can (with a cap of roughly 10x what a real person could do, if we take the 100' chasm as a guide). Whereas mystic people can just shrug and say 'screw reality.'

Congrats, you've duplicated the thought processes of the 3.0 designers (and 2nd edition, 1st edition, and so on) which led to fighter types not having nice things. Until you think of an 'out' for the fighters, which would allow them to compete with *everybody else*, that is all you have done.

[MGuy]

By Satan I am tired of people saying this. I don't know how being able to leap over tall buildings, reflecting bullets with your chest muscles, or being able to shoot the testicles off of an unborn baby boy from half a mile away isn't "awesome". Most action/kung fu movies don't feature magic, nano bots, or anything like that. Most fictional heroes don't use magic (they might use magic items but they don't wield magic themselves). Why is it that everyone seems to think that awesomeness is limited to using spells? Was there a magic festival I missed out on?

In what reality are people who are extraordinarily good at what they do "just not enough"? So everyone NEEDS wings to e any good? Everyone needs to be able to summon a legion of demons from the underworld to do anything that matters?

Is everyone saying that magic represents the epitome of awesome and no one can exist at the same level of awesomeness without it?

Let me ask YOU something Robinson. Can you not stomach the idea of that really good swordsman having to pick up a pair of boots that allow him to fly instead of sprouting wings out of his back for absolutely no sword related reason? Hell if he's in such a need to fly than let his sword be empowered to let him lift off. If we start talking about "sword enlightenment" we're going onto the mystical scale. So the fighter picks up a prestige class: Enlightened Swordsman and then Mr Slashy McStabby can use his supernatural "enlightened" sword powers to turn rocks into gold for all I care.

[ubernoob]

Wizards get to fly as a class feature. Fighters shouldn't need to spend money on something that's a class feature.

[MGuy]

-My mistake UN I should be quoting the "Fighters can't have nice things" he keeps spamming. That is my mistake.

I think the point is you've 'logically reasoned' yourself into a corner (actually a circle, which is even better) that you can't get out of. You've essentially stated that non-mystic people can't do much more than real people can (with a cap of roughly 10x what a real person could do, if we take the 100' chasm as a guide). Whereas mystic people can just shrug and say 'screw reality.'

Congrats, you've duplicated the thought processes of the 3.0 designers (and 2nd edition, 1st edition, and so on) which led to fighter types not having nice things. Until you think of an 'out' for the fighters, which would allow them to compete with *everybody else*, that is all you have done.

Please wait a second while I bash my head against a wall... Ok thank you now that I have transferred my rage into the wall I can approach this calmly.

1) I don't know how that particular quote even relates to what you say thereafter. So because I am saying:

"You know spamming the same words over and over again does not = an argument. But I suppose when people are disagreeing with your work for logical reasons that's what you get for it but when you're tossing words like (Paizil and 4fail) Edit to say: "Fighters can't have nice things"at other systems for logical reasons and people give you this same shit that means they're retarded. I see why you disagree with me Frank... it's because you're an inconsistent person at heart.

How is that relevant to cornering myself?

2) I didn't introduce a cap as to how far above humans extraordinary abilities had to be. That's an assumption you came up with based on an example not my words.

3) Now how is my thinking similar to 3e designers (never played 2e or 1e)? Oh I know its another statement based off of looking at one particular aspect of my argument. You must've missed the part where I talked about scaling back casters while giving fighter's more/better abilities. If this is the case please read my whole argument.

Or maybe you're just saying since magic can do everything just because then fighters should be able to as well. So fighters should be able to cut there way through dimensions, produce a wall of force by punching the ground, or be able to prismatic spray people with their piss and sweat? If this is the case I just plain disagree with you.

So as for you telling me to think of an "out" I suggest you read ALL of what I've posted.

-edit for UN: I think its fair they use resources to get ANOTHER class's special ability. A Cleric can heal. A wizard can't without jumping through certain hoops. A Druid gets an animal companion. A Cleric doesn't and can't get a summon to stay around longer than a minute until higher levels and even that can be costly.

[ubernoob]

-edit for UN: I think its fair they use resources to get ANOTHER class's special ability. A Cleric can heal. A wizard can't without jumping through certain hoops. A Druid gets an animal companion. A Cleric doesn't and can't get a summon to stay around longer than a minute until higher levels and even that can be costly.

OK, let me revise my statement:
You shouldn't have to pay money to use a class feature someone else has in order to play the same game. Better? Because fighters should totally be able to fly by sheer awesome and dispel walls of force because they are that mighty.

[Voss]

-My mistake UN I should be quoting the "Fighters can't have nice things" he keeps spamming. That is my mistake.

I think the point is you've 'logically reasoned' yourself into a corner (actually a circle, which is even better) that you can't get out of. You've essentially stated that non-mystic people can't do much more than real people can (with a cap of roughly 10x what a real person could do, if we take the 100' chasm as a guide). Whereas mystic people can just shrug and say 'screw reality.'

Congrats, you've duplicated the thought processes of the 3.0 designers (and 2nd edition, 1st edition, and so on) which led to fighter types not having nice things. Until you think of an 'out' for the fighters, which would allow them to compete with *everybody else*, that is all you have done.

Please wait a second while I bash my head against a wall... Ok thank you now that I have transferred my rage into the wall I can approach this calmly.

1) I don't know how that particular quote even relates to what you say thereafter. So because I am saying:

"You know spamming the same words over and over again does not = an argument. But I suppose when people are disagreeing with your work for logical reasons that's what you get for it but when you're tossing words like (Paizil and 4fail) Edit to say: "Fighters can't have nice things"at other systems for logical reasons and people give you this same shit that means they're retarded. I see why you disagree with me Frank... it's because you're an inconsistent person at heart.

How is that relevant to cornering myself?

Its relevant, because you are over in the corner, with Magic Guys who can do A, B, C, and Fighters who can only do C. If A and B are required to be competitive (which, generally, they are), and fighters can't have them because of realism, what it boils down to is fighters can't be competitive (ie, have nice things).

There just aren't many ways to successfully argue that if these classes are limited by realism, and these classes are unlimited, then both sets of classes are playing the same game.

I have read some of your suggestions since I suspect you're talking about these:

Hell just to throw out some ideas: You can't summon more than one or a number limited HD creature(s), Scrying is made too expensive to be practical, requires a specific component garnered from a high CR creature/god, Save or suck spells must be done at close range and take longer to cast, get rid of wish/time stop/miracle, eighty billion other things you can short change casters on including always limiting a wizards to specialties, making it more expensive to create/use multiple magic items. there is a fuck ton of shit you can do to scale back a caster.

... and well, all you have is a bunch of random, unformed ideas that might work, but probably won't.

[Voss]

In what reality are people who are extraordinarily good at what they do "just not enough"? So everyone NEEDS wings to e any good? Everyone needs to be able to summon a legion of demons from the underworld to do anything that matters?

This one? D&D land? Almost any other?

To use a not absurd example...
You've got 35th level fighter, who is so amazing with his sword that he's better than anyone whos ever lived, and will beat anyone he meets in a sword fight.

Mr Mage walks up and casts anything from shatter to 'I wish you didn't have hands to hold a sword with'.

Result: fighter guy loses. Period. Done.


Like an amazing accountant in a combat zone, a fighter in high level d&d land isn't worth much more than cannon fodder. Thats just how the game works. To change it, you need to do more than scale back casters, you've got to change fundamental aspects of how the game functions.

And you run a big risk in doing so, as 4th edition amply demonstrates- there you have everybody playing the same game even without magic for the non-magic guys (everybody does damage and has a handful of stunlocks), so everyone is playing the same game. Unfortunately the game has become... less.

[virgil]

Both sides, sheesh. Tell me if I have a mistake going on here. MGuy's arguing that the fighter types should be on par with the casters without resorting to magic, but is shot down because magic > mundane. He then counters that his definition of the limits of 'mundane' is sufficiently large that you can be as strong and invulnerable as Superman, as fast as the Flash, as devastating in your blows against magic as Hawkgirl's mace, as able to deflect arrows/rays as Wonder Woman, and the ability to jump and fight in midair like the more extreme maneuvers seen in Hero and House of Flying Daggers.

To which I counter, what hell is the difference between magic and mundane at this point? MGuy seems to think and vehemently argue that there's a line, but allows for sufficient flavour text to turn any supernatural act into a 'mundane' one. You other guys have entered into some kind of conceptual realm with Venn diagrams in order to make the whole thing wrong someday.

[MGuy]

-UN:I understand what you're saying. But if everyone can fly then what is the purpose of having an item that allows you to fly? Why should a caster than have to expend a spell slot to cast fly on himself then? On top of that his flight time is limited by level, anti magic, and anything else that has him shut off the spell for a second. To bypass the need to cast the spell wouldn't the caster expend resources to allow himself to do it without casting the spell then?

-Voss: 1) you are assuming that I enact protocol just C for fighters while A and B are still more valuable then C. However if A, B, and C are all competitive choices and A can only produce an effect similar/but not equal to C or B then C users will own Cdom while A and B users are regulated to A and Bdom to achieve their maximum effect.

2) Unformed ideas indeed but that's how any work starts. You think systems are pulled near perfect out of someone's ass or something? It takes work. If you don't think it'll work than I respect your opinion.

3) Please do give me examples cause off the top of my head I could point out that most of the movies you see and most of the books you read have protagonists that get along just fine with only limited access to actual phlebotinum. Even in Myths heroes had very... wait a second I ALREADY said all of this. Anyway I acknowledged that D&D as is needs work. Pointing it out as your main example doesn't lend much to your argument.

4) Again covered by 3 but to play around with your example. Lets reimagine that fighter. Lets say he has some of the extraordinary abilities I've been prattling about. What does he do without his hands? Snap the wizard's neck off with his teeth (epic level grapple, epic strength and speed, and epic constrict)

-Edit for Virg: The line is simply that fighters have abilities that are within their domain. Sure a spell can buff you up and make you large sized this can be emulated by inherent Str bonuses and Large Build as a class feature. However there are a number of things that just wouldn't fit the bill. Dimension hopping, flight, (which has been brought up so much I'm beginning to hate the thought of it), soul sucking, ability draining, going ethereal, most kinds of mind manipulation (mostly beyond fear because I can see a good intimidation making a guy piss himself), I could go on and on about certain aspects of magic that would be overdoing it but you probably have my point. That is the only real line I'm talking about. But for some reason fighters NEED to be able to do those things.

-edit for after thought: Also the point that most people seem to be skipping over: that casters be scaled back so that they don't over shadow everyone else.

[FatR]

Actually I agree, that fighters and company should remain within limits of action movie-"realistic" abilities. But only to a certain point. Which standard 3.X passes around levels 5-7. Beyond that you must be a superhuman to plausibly compete with level-appropriate threats. You almost certainly are a superhuman anyway, even as a fighter (cutting through solid stone, etc, is pretty much standard fare at this point), except that your set of superpowers is strangely and severely limited. The game really needed tiers of "hero/superhero/epic hero" and corresponding understanding of which abilities are level-appropriate for each tier. Ironically, they did introduce tiers in 4E, where they aren't supposed to actually mean anything as far as gameplay and scope of the characters' abilities are concerned (well, with enough minmaxing access to paragon and epic powers allows you to just win DnD, but their intent supposedly was to keep gameplay the same at all levels).

[ubernoob]

-UN:I understand what you're saying. But if everyone can fly then what is the purpose of having an item that allows you to fly? Why should a caster than have to expend a spell slot to cast fly on himself then? On top of that his flight time is limited by level, anti magic, and anything else that has him shut off the spell for a second. To bypass the need to cast the spell wouldn't the caster expend resources to allow himself to do it without casting the spell then?

Here's an example of how to make it balanced:

Leap of Faith: At sixth level and higher, a warrior can leap to astounding heights. By expending your swift action, you gain a fly speed equal to double your land speed at average maneuverability this round.

I'm too cool for gravity: At 10th level and higher, you are so strong that gravity falls you. You gain a fly speed equal to double your land speed at perfect maneuverability. Also, the wind always blows in the most flattering way for your hair.

These are totally fine because warriors are still dealing with reach and full attacks while the casters are just tossing out combat enders at range.

[Heath Robinson]

By Satan I am tired of people saying this. I don't know how being able to leap over tall buildings, reflecting bullets with your chest muscles, or being able to shoot the testicles off of an unborn baby boy from half a mile away isn't "awesome". Most action/kung fu movies don't feature magic, nano bots, or anything like that. Most fictional heroes don't use magic (they might use magic items but they don't wield magic themselves). Why is it that everyone seems to think that awesomeness is limited to using spells? Was there a magic festival I missed out on?

In what reality are people who are extraordinarily good at what they do "just not enough"? So everyone NEEDS wings to e any good? Everyone needs to be able to summon a legion of demons from the underworld to do anything that matters?

Is everyone saying that magic represents the epitome of awesome and no one can exist at the same level of awesomeness without it?

Let me ask YOU something Robinson. Can you not stomach the idea of that really good swordsman having to pick up a pair of boots that allow him to fly instead of sprouting wings out of his back for absolutely no sword related reason? Hell if he's in such a need to fly than let his sword be empowered to let him lift off. If we start talking about "sword enlightenment" we're going onto the mystical scale. So the fighter picks up a prestige class: Enlightened Swordsman and then Mr Slashy McStabby can use his supernatural "enlightened" sword powers to turn rocks into gold for all I care.

You said, literally, that some abilities were "too mystic" for Fighters. Wordfilter "mystic" to "awesome". See comments about "non-standard definition of 'awesome'". I assumed you'd be able to pattern match the "too <adjective>" form and get my meaning, and for that I apologise.

Referring to fictional heroes is inappropriate, since most fictional heroes are not toting around 10-20 magical items, either. Arthur had a sword, and a scabbard at one point. How many fictional Mages actually cast Fly? Since when have people with demonic ancestry that they tap into for power been sympathetic in fantasy fiction? I feel that the correct conclusion her is that D&D is not a fantasy novel and never was.

Flight is an important effect because there are flying monsters that have Ranged Weapons in the first Monster Manual (Dragons are just one example) and all those other classes that get Flight as a class feature (that can also pick up a bow or crossbow). If your Fighter does not have a ranged weapon then your Fighter needs (not "would like", needs) Flight to face off against these opponents. By saying that actual Flight is "too awesome/mystic" for Fighters, you're saying that Fighters need not apply at these levels. In which case, why are you asking for a Fighter class that goes up past the level where this all becomes important?

Paying money for abilities that are actually necessary to be baseline effective is not allowable, since it's a travesty of equality. Do we charge the Cleric any monies (beyond what we expect the Fighter to cough up) at all for being able to do the same stuff as the Fighter? They can just pop down buffs that make them as good as the Fighter for zero monetary cost. As such, the Fighter needs to get additional Class Features that let them act against level appropriate enemies since it would take them ridiculous amounts of


I should also point out that I object, on a basic level, to the idea that someone who lives in a world where Green Rocks are all over the place, and some animals have Green Rocks in their blood, does not have any Green Rocks at all. Their Green Rock quotient is absolutely zero. That stretches verisimilitude more than people who get to fly by swinging around a sword until they are totally awesome, at least in my opinion.

[MGuy]

-UN:I understand what you're saying. But if everyone can fly then what is the purpose of having an item that allows you to fly? Why should a caster than have to expend a spell slot to cast fly on himself then? On top of that his flight time is limited by level, anti magic, and anything else that has him shut off the spell for a second. To bypass the need to cast the spell wouldn't the caster expend resources to allow himself to do it without casting the spell then?

Here's an example of how to make it balanced:

Leap of Faith: At sixth level and higher, a warrior can leap to astounding heights. By expending your swift action, you gain a fly speed equal to double your land speed at average maneuverability this round.

I'm too cool for gravity: At 10th level and higher, you are so strong that gravity falls you. You gain a fly speed equal to double your land speed at perfect maneuverability. Also, the wind always blows in the most flattering way for your hair.

These are totally fine because warriors are still dealing with reach and full attacks while the casters are just tossing out combat enders at range.

I'd like it more if it were more like this.

Vicious Leap Prerequisite: Leap Attack: You may leap as a charge action up to double your movement speed in any direction at a chosen target. If the target is air borne you may direct the attack at it. You take falling damage as normal after the attack is made.

-Special: You may opt to initiate a grapple as part of this action instead of attacking. If you weigh more than the target's light load you both take falling damage. (there are various other ways to handle this but you get the general Idea)

Aerial Stunts Prerequisite: Vicious Leap:After striking(or grappling) a target with Vicious Leap you may opt to use the target's Momentum to stay aloft effectively staying in place. On your next turn you may use the momentum from striking your opponent in the last turn to make another Vicious Leap.

-Special: If you grappled your opponent as part of your Vicious Leap you may opt to send the opponent plummeting while you stay aloft.

Air Combo You may perform a full attack action at the end of a Vicious Leap. If you opt to Grapple an opponent you may perform the full attack action as you both plummet.

These provide the melee fighter with an anti air option, sound awesome, and are completely within the fighter's domain. But this is just the starting idea. I'm sure there would be bugs to work out but this is what I would be looking for out of the fighter.

[Kaelik]

But has anyone taken the time to actually step away from wizard camp to realize that very few monsters have the spell selection that the casters have?

You are dumb and you should feel dumb. You need to actually look at the MM before you say bullshit like this.

CR 10. CR 10, half way up the tree:

17 monsters: 6 of them can fly, 3 of them can teleport anywhere in the universe, 7 of them have an actual Sorcerer spellcasting progression, 4 of them get a good chunk of SLAs, and the six monsters that don't have any of that shit have more BAB and higher stats than a Fighter, and they all get crazy shit like always on haste and breathing fire and hardness and a bunch of other Ex abilities And those are the pussy monsters.

When we say fighters have to have flight at level 10 in order to not suck, unlike you, we aren't making that shit up, it's because if he can't fly he just auto loses to 11/17ths of the MM and still sucks against the other half.

Kaelik: Defining myself is not ignoring a definition. If you don't like my definitions look in your player's handbook. Go to the back. Read what both definitions say. Then read it again. Hopefully you'll read whats there instead of warping the words with your eyes to read something else.

Once again. Supernatural is an actual word with an actual meaning. Jumping 100ft in the air is supernatural. Being immune to poison is supernatural. Having your sword blow a wind tunnel to deflect arrows is fucking supernatural.

Every D&D character over level 2 needs to be supernatural. And yes you can define supernatural to be "things I don't like" and extraordinary to be "things I do like" And we are all going to ignore that definition. Because every fucking ability in the game could be either supernatural or extraordinary based on the D&D game rule definitions. Clay Golems have a (Su) ability of always one haste. You could also give the (Ex) ability Haste. Because being fast can be either one. So can flying, there are actual characters that shoot shit out their ass to fly and have it not be magic, they just shoot the stuff out so fast that it has the same momentum as their mass moving forward at 50 miles an hour.

That's an Ex ability. And it's a real established type of character that is the obvious extension of people who are really strong jumping hard.

Ex=Su. There's no fucking difference. Any ability in the game can be either. All you are saying is that you don't want Fighters to fly because it's an ability you don't want them to have. And when you say that, you are just saying, "I want fighters to automatically lose to half the MM."

A: Many good plots aren't functional in a game with God PCs unless you invent ways to impede them.

A) Many good plots aren't functional in game where all the characters aren't gods. But:

1) Characters in D&D aren't gods.
2) D&D is a game were the only plots that work are ones that recognize what power level the PCs are. If you can't tell what power level they are and try to play the wrong plot, it's your damn fault. When someone plays D&D at level 12, they don't want to die from poison, or have to search for an old man to tell them what to do, they want to call their God up on the phone and ask him about what's going down.

[ubernoob]

-UN:I understand what you're saying. But if everyone can fly then what is the purpose of having an item that allows you to fly? Why should a caster than have to expend a spell slot to cast fly on himself then? On top of that his flight time is limited by level, anti magic, and anything else that has him shut off the spell for a second. To bypass the need to cast the spell wouldn't the caster expend resources to allow himself to do it without casting the spell then?

Here's an example of how to make it balanced:

Leap of Faith: At sixth level and higher, a warrior can leap to astounding heights. By expending your swift action, you gain a fly speed equal to double your land speed at average maneuverability this round.

I'm too cool for gravity: At 10th level and higher, you are so strong that gravity falls you. You gain a fly speed equal to double your land speed at perfect maneuverability. Also, the wind always blows in the most flattering way for your hair.

These are totally fine because warriors are still dealing with reach and full attacks while the casters are just tossing out combat enders at range.

I'd like it more if it were more like this.

Vicious Leap Prerequisite: Leap Attack: You may leap as a charge action up to double your movement speed in any direction at a chosen target. If the target is air borne you may direct the attack at it. You take falling damage as normal after the attack is made.

-Special: You may opt to initiate a grapple as part of this action instead of attacking. If you weigh more than the target's light load you both take falling damage. (there are various other ways to handle this but you get the general Idea)

Aerial Stunts Prerequisite: Vicious Leap:After striking(or grappling) a target with Vicious Leap you may opt to use the target's Momentum to stay aloft effectively staying in place. On your next turn you may use the momentum from striking your opponent in the last turn to make another Vicious Leap.

-Special: If you grappled your opponent as part of your Vicious Leap you may opt to send the opponent plummeting while you stay aloft.

Air Combo You may perform a full attack action at the end of a Vicious Leap. If you opt to Grapple an opponent you may perform the full attack action as you both plummet.

These provide the melee fighter with an anti air option, sound awesome, and are completely within the fighter's domain. But this is just the starting idea. I'm sure there would be bugs to work out but this is what I would be looking for out of the fighter.

1) Prereqs are stupid.
2) These are overcomplicated. The simpler a mechanic the better.

[MGuy]

By Satan I am tired of people saying this. I don't know how being able to leap over tall buildings, reflecting bullets with your chest muscles, or being able to shoot the testicles off of an unborn baby boy from half a mile away isn't "awesome". Most action/kung fu movies don't feature magic, nano bots, or anything like that. Most fictional heroes don't use magic (they might use magic items but they don't wield magic themselves). Why is it that everyone seems to think that awesomeness is limited to using spells? Was there a magic festival I missed out on?

In what reality are people who are extraordinarily good at what they do "just not enough"? So everyone NEEDS wings to e any good? Everyone needs to be able to summon a legion of demons from the underworld to do anything that matters?

Is everyone saying that magic represents the epitome of awesome and no one can exist at the same level of awesomeness without it?

Let me ask YOU something Robinson. Can you not stomach the idea of that really good swordsman having to pick up a pair of boots that allow him to fly instead of sprouting wings out of his back for absolutely no sword related reason? Hell if he's in such a need to fly than let his sword be empowered to let him lift off. If we start talking about "sword enlightenment" we're going onto the mystical scale. So the fighter picks up a prestige class: Enlightened Swordsman and then Mr Slashy McStabby can use his supernatural "enlightened" sword powers to turn rocks into gold for all I care.

You said, literally, that some abilities were "too mystic" for Fighters. Wordfilter "mystic" to "awesome". See comments about "non-standard definition of 'awesome'". I assumed you'd be able to pattern match the "too <adjective>" form and get my meaning, and for that I apologise.

Referring to fictional heroes is inappropriate, since most fictional heroes are not toting around 10-20 magical items, either. Arthur had a sword, and a scabbard at one point. How many fictional Mages actually cast Fly? Since when have people with demonic ancestry that they tap into for power been sympathetic in fantasy fiction? I feel that the correct conclusion her is that D&D is not a fantasy novel and never was.

Flight is an important effect because there flying monsters that have Ranged Weapons in the first Monster Manual (Dragons are just one example) and all those other classes that get Flight as a class feature (that can also pick up a bow or crossbow). If your Fighter does not have a ranged weapon then your Fighter needs (not "would like", needs) Flight to face off against these opponents. By saying that actual Flight is "too awesome/mystic" for Fighters, you're saying that Fighters need not apply at these levels. In which case, why are you asking for a Fighter class that goes up past the level where this all becomes important?

Paying money for abilities that are actually necessary to be baseline effective is not allowable, since it's a travesty of equality. Do we charge the Cleric any monies (beyond what we expect the Fighter to cough up) at all for being able to do the same stuff as the Fighter? They can just pop down buffs that make them as good as the Fighter for zero monetary cost. As such, the Fighter needs to get additional Class Features that let them act against level appropriate enemies since it would take them ridiculous amounts of


I should also point out that I object, on a basic level, to the idea that someone who lives in a world where Green Rocks are all over the place, and some animals have Green Rocks in their blood, does not have any Green Rocks at all. Their Green Rock quotient is absolutely zero. That stretches verisimilitude more than people who get to fly by swinging around a sword until they are totally awesome, at least in my opinion.

I refer to fictional heroes because the subject was brought up earlier. I thought that comic book characters would match up better with the D&D's drop from realistic to fantastical at higher levels. However this just led to Batman jokes so I had to refer to something a little less abusive.

You make a good point and I concede to that point about flight being necessary to kill quite a number of creatures. However, I feel that gold is a light tax to rest on the shoulders of the ever adventuring fighter. If you draw back the need for him to buy an expensive sword by making his extraordinary abilities bad ass on their own, then they'd be able to kick ass even with a mundane weapon. Because of this there would be a huge increase in the amount of gold they can spend on such measures.

If they absolutely MUST be able to do it, I'd suggest abilities of superhuman quality that would allow them to succeed. I introduced a number of feats above in response to UN's post that do just that.

I respect your views on Green Rocks. I actually have no argument with your thinking. However, and you can just consider this a personal thing, I don't think everyone needs all the green rock powers to succeed. As with my batman statement (which hopefully won't reproduce the idiotic batman jokes) I think characters are much more memorable if they can trump Green Rock users with as little of their own as possible

[Parthenon]

Err... MGuy, you misread Voss. By a lot.

Magic Guys who can do A, B, C, and Fighters who can only do C. If A and B are required to be competitive (which, generally, they are), and fighters can't have them because of realism, what it boils down to is fighters can't be competitive (ie, have nice things).

you are assuming that I enact protocol just C for fighters while A and B are still more valuable then C. However if A, B, and C are all competitive choices and A can only produce an effect similar/but not equal to C or B then C users will own Cdom while A and B users are regulated to A and Bdom to achieve their maximum effect.

Put it this way. The fighter has an artifact sword made out of steel. The party is fighting a super-werewolf with DR infinite/silver , a super-fey with DR infinite/cold iron and a super-bear. The fighter can only hurt the bear (Fighters who can only do C).
Whereas the Wizard ignores DR and can hurt all three (Magic Guys who can do A, B, C). So, to be competitive you need to hurt all three, but the Fighter can only do C.

Taken in the most positive way you appear to be arguing that the Fighter should be so good at C that it makes up for not being able to do A or B, while the Wizard should be able to do A and B by themselves yet somehow be really bad at C to let the Fighter take the spotlight. This is retarded. Since magic doesn't have strict limits you can always get magic to do C well and not being able to do A or B screws over fighters.

Some of the things you state yourself:

Dimension hopping, soul sucking, ability draining, going ethereal,

are A or B categories. In a fight against ghosts the Fighter needs to be able to fight against them or they are useless, so they need to somehow go ethereal to fight them. But, you want them not to be able to since that is a magic type ability and fighters aren't allowed it. If you have a party made up of Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues then they can't fight ghosts. They can't fight people who escape to other dimensions. They can't fight...

Or, another example. There are a variety of actions/encounters/challenges that need to be passed/dealt with:

• a bottomless chasm with harpies flying about to try to stop you getting across (A)
• a tear in reality to the netherworlds with infinite hellspawn coming through that you have to stop getting through or kill as they come through(B)
• a huge slow moving behemoth that is attacking a village (C)

In D&D before Epic a physical guy can only do anything about C, and can't help in A or B. Whereas a magic guy can affect A, B and C. This is not balanced.

---

Your response to ubernoob's suggestion is another example of Fighters not having nice things. They automatically take damage, they require a huge amount more messing about and calculating stuff (how likely are you to know the light load of something?). They are also weaker in every way than flying and has too short a range to do much of anything.

Personally, heres how I'd start with huge awesome jumps:

Awegasmic jumping: When you have 13 ranks in Jump or more, as a move action you can choose a point within 10ft x your rank in jump (not jump bonus). Make a jump check with a DC equal to the jump distance in feet / 5. If you make the check you land on that square. If you fail the check by less than 5 roll a random square within 10ft and land on that taking 2d6 damage. If you fail the check by more than 5 you land taking 5d6 damage in a square within 20ft of half the distance to where you wanted to go.

This needs a lot of work, but you can reliably take large jumps and then also choose to take huge jumps with some risks. There is also not much rulekeeping and you can reasonably eyeglance and estimate distances. You might add rules so that it takes a couple of turns during the jump but you can always take a full rounds worth of actions so they can attack, shoot or whatever during the jump. You might add rules so that you can mess about with momentum and get more hang-time, spending a round or so at the apex so you can jump up and fight the dragon in melee combat. Whatever. But, its a reasonable alternative to flying that is actually better in a way (faster movement in this example).

[MGuy]

But has anyone taken the time to actually step away from wizard camp to realize that very few monsters have the spell selection that the casters have?

You are dumb and you should feel dumb. You need to actually look at the MM before you say bullshit like this.

CR 10. CR 10, half way up the tree:

17 monsters: 6 of them can fly, 3 of them can teleport anywhere in the universe, 7 of them have an actual Sorcerer spellcasting progression, 4 of them get a good chunk of SLAs, and the six monsters that don't have any of that shit have more BAB and higher stats than a Fighter, and they all get crazy shit like always on haste and breathing fire and hardness and a bunch of other Ex abilities And those are the pussy monsters.

When we say fighters have to have flight at level 10 in order to not suck, unlike you, we aren't making that shit up, it's because if he can't fly he just auto loses to 11/17ths of the MM and still sucks against the other half.

Kaelik: Defining myself is not ignoring a definition. If you don't like my definitions look in your player's handbook. Go to the back. Read what both definitions say. Then read it again. Hopefully you'll read whats there instead of warping the words with your eyes to read something else.

Once again. Supernatural is an actual word with an actual meaning. Jumping 100ft in the air is supernatural. Being immune to poison is supernatural. Having your sword blow a wind tunnel to deflect arrows is fucking supernatural.

Every D&D character over level 2 needs to be supernatural. And yes you can define supernatural to be "things I don't like" and extraordinary to be "things I do like" And we are all going to ignore that definition. Because every fucking ability in the game could be either supernatural or extraordinary based on the D&D game rule definitions. Clay Golems have a (Su) ability of always one haste. You could also give the (Ex) ability Haste. Because being fast can be either one. So can flying, there are actual characters that shoot shit out their ass to fly and have it not be magic, they just shoot the stuff out so fast that it has the same momentum as their mass moving forward at 50 miles an hour.

That's an Ex ability. And it's a real established type of character that is the obvious extension of people who are really strong jumping hard.

Ex=Su. There's no fucking difference. Any ability in the game can be either. All you are saying is that you don't want Fighters to fly because it's an ability you don't want them to have. And when you say that, you are just saying, "I want fighters to automatically lose to half the MM."

A: Many good plots aren't functional in a game with God PCs unless you invent ways to impede them.

A) Many good plots aren't functional in game where all the characters aren't gods. But:

1) Characters in D&D aren't gods.
2) D&D is a game were the only plots that work are ones that recognize what power level the PCs are. If you can't tell what power level they are and try to play the wrong plot, it's your damn fault. When someone plays D&D at level 12, they don't want to die from poison, or have to search for an old man to tell them what to do, they want to call their God up on the phone and ask him about what's going down.

1) You are dumb and you should feel dumb? Again thank you for misreading my words. I mentioned that in looking at the MM you'll find that the common monster doesn't have the VERSATILITY (spell selection) of a similarly leveled caster and that we should USE THE MONSTERS as a guide to what character's should and shouldn't have. I have never said that flight wasn't FUCKING necessary I said that they should get it from another source outside of their FUCKING class. GET MY WORDS RIGHT! For GODS SAKE YOU QUOTED ME and STILL FUCKED IT UP! How can you even manage to do that repeatedly?!

2) For the sake of your immortal soul READ what I put. I not only give what I mean by the words AND draw a line as clear as I can with what I mean but the definitions are in your PHB.

3) Split into parts for you to go over misread and misquote at your own leisure.

A)PCs 10th level + have God Like abilities. I shouldn't need to point them out but for argument's sake Scry, Detect Thoughts, Detect Life, Power Words, Limited and Full Wish.

B)Wrong Plot? Plots that take into consideration the Power level? That sounds like a very real limit to the plots that you can use to me. There being the existence of good plots that can be wrong just because you have God like abilities you can toss around whenever is bad to me.

[MGuy]

Err... MGuy, you misread Voss. By a lot.

Magic Guys who can do A, B, C, and Fighters who can only do C. If A and B are required to be competitive (which, generally, they are), and fighters can't have them because of realism, what it boils down to is fighters can't be competitive (ie, have nice things).

you are assuming that I enact protocol just C for fighters while A and B are still more valuable then C. However if A, B, and C are all competitive choices and A can only produce an effect similar/but not equal to C or B then C users will own Cdom while A and B users are regulated to A and Bdom to achieve their maximum effect.

Put it this way. The fighter has an artifact sword made out of steel. The party is fighting a super-werewolf with DR infinite/silver , a super-fey with DR infinite/cold iron and a super-bear. The fighter can only hurt the bear (Fighters who can only do C).
Whereas the Wizard ignores DR and can hurt all three (Magic Guys who can do A, B, C). So, to be competitive you need to hurt all three, but the Fighter can only do C.

Taken in the most positive way you appear to be arguing that the Fighter should be so good at C that it makes up for not being able to do A or B, while the Wizard should be able to do A and B by themselves yet somehow be really bad at C to let the Fighter take the spotlight. This is retarded. Since magic doesn't have strict limits you can always get magic to do C well and not being able to do A or B screws over fighters.

Some of the things you state yourself:

Dimension hopping, soul sucking, ability draining, going ethereal,

are A or B categories. In a fight against ghosts the Fighter needs to be able to fight against them or they are useless, so they need to somehow go ethereal to fight them. But, you want them not to be able to since that is a magic type ability and fighters aren't allowed it. If you have a party made up of Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues then they can't fight ghosts. They can't fight people who escape to other dimensions. They can't fight...

Or, another example. There are a variety of actions/encounters/challenges that need to be passed/dealt with:

• a bottomless chasm with harpies flying about to try to stop you getting across (A)
• a tear in reality to the netherworlds with infinite hellspawn coming through that you have to stop getting through or kill as they come through(B)
• a huge slow moving behemoth that is attacking a village (C)

In D&D before Epic a physical guy can only do anything about C, and can't help in A or B. Whereas a magic guy can affect A, B and C. This is not balanced.

---

Your response to ubernoob's suggestion is another example of Fighters not having nice things. They automatically take damage, they require a huge amount more messing about and calculating stuff (how likely are you to know the light load of something?). They are also weaker in every way than flying and has too short a range to do much of anything.

Personally, heres how I'd start with huge awesome jumps:

Awegasmic jumping: When you have 13 ranks in Jump or more, as a move action you can choose a point within 10ft x your rank in jump (not jump bonus). Make a jump check with a DC equal to the jump distance in feet / 5. If you make the check you land on that square. If you fail the check by less than 5 roll a random square within 10ft and land on that taking 2d6 damage. If you fail the check by more than 5 you land taking 5d6 damage in a square within 20ft of half the distance to where you wanted to go.

This needs a lot of work, but you can reliably take large jumps and then also choose to take huge jumps with some risks. There is also not much rulekeeping and you can reasonably eyeglance and estimate distances. You might add rules so that it takes a couple of turns during the jump but you can always take a full rounds worth of actions so they can attack, shoot or whatever during the jump. You might add rules so that you can mess about with momentum and get more hang-time, spending a round or so at the apex so you can jump up and fight the dragon in melee combat. Whatever. But, its a reasonable alternative to flying that is actually better in a way (faster movement in this example).

1) Ahh thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding of Voss's post. I misunderstood what he meant. If this is the case. I'd have to argue that the wizard would need to prepare to fight these creatures right? An effective fighter can just acquire the right sword for the DR of the monster (his version of preparation) If he's built up on bad ass then it shouldn't matter much if he's using his primary sword one that's made for the situation. A wizard in turn needs to prepare to fight the creature on terms that wouldn't allow the mentioned creatures to scrape his guts out because of a good initiative roll.

2) Now the other examples I don't want to be bogged down by coming up with answers for everything. But I'll summarize my thoughts about it. Wizards are THE most versatile class. Beyond other classes (Cleric and even Druid) they can literally do anything. Fighters can't close dimensional rifts. Well Druids can't either. Personally I don't like the idea of a I can do anything class. And I am very adamant about getting rid of a wizard's do anything abilities. I don't want my fighters following the same path.For sake of defending my position I will address your examples.

A) Bottomless Chasm vs Harpies make a run for it. You should have the Strength and HP to get wherever you're trying to go on foot (though I think simply having a simple fly item at that level really would do the trick)

B) Slug it out until you ca break the gate letting them through. With your mighty epic level extraordinary bad assness you should be able to handle it.

C) is already given a pass so I won't worry about it.

3) About the feats for Uber's suggestion they were just a toss up, fully open to redesigning. But it seems as though you got the direction I was going in with it. So I appreciate your input on it.

-Edit for UN: feel free to reconstruct them as you see fit. They were just to point in the direction of my thinking.

[User]

Whatever happened to ranged weapons as an anti-air option? Why does the high level fighter have to fly instead of pull out his bow / throw his axe - both with absurd ranges and accuracy?

[MGuy]

Fighters who don't specialize in it can't do enough damage to matter at high levels.

[User]

Yes, but in an ideal better balanced game system that seems like the logical option for high level fighters, not magical flying from their class.

[Emerald]

Yes, but in an ideal better balanced game system that seems like the logical option for high level fighters, not magical flying from their class.

If your character concept is Joe 10th-Level Fighter, Most Awesomest Swordfighter In The Multiverse, should you have to pull out a bow to deal with a flying monster (even if you're good at it), or should you be able to jump really fucking high and hit it with your sword, your weapon of choice for the last 10 levels?

[ubernoob]

3) About the feats for Uber's suggestion they were just a toss up, fully open to redesigning. But it seems as though you got the direction I was going in with it. So I appreciate your input on it.

-Edit for UN: feel free to reconstruct them as you see fit. They were just to point in the direction of my thinking.

Wait, those were supposed to be FEATS? A character is seriously having to invest 3 (almost half of his feats over his carreer) just to replicate a third level spell (and overland flight doesn't require you to ever land either)?