TNE: Nonmagical Fighter Idea Lab

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:41 pm

You missed my entry about Rituals. In it I suggested something like ritual casting from 4e which everyone can do. Make telporting and plane shifting rituals. Eliminate the ability to do them instantly. Every body can now do it if they choose to take up the ability to do so. And the problem is solved without arbitrarily handing the martial classes magic.

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:44 pm

Sorry, when you say "ritual" I don't necessarily think "4E style rituals everyone can use". Turning all of these kind of spells into rituals would work though, if you are fine everyone using every one of them.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:31 pm

The physics engine of D&D is why fighters can't compete in D&D. The physics engine of Warhammer is why fighters can't compete in Warhammer. The physics engine of Shadowrun is why fighters can compete in Shadowrun. D&D Fighters aren't obsolete because wall of force is unbreakable, they are obsolete because it takes actual effort to break through a wall of stone, ice, or even a web and a wizard makes it with a moment's concentration as an afterthought.

Basically there are only two satisfactory answers: giving up the fairy tale magic, or giving up the characters who don't have it.

As long as "magic" doesn't have to follow the rules, as long as it has an incredibly generous and narrative physics engine, your warrior class should just be the Cleric.

If you want to have non magical characters at all, your magical characters have to play by the physics rules that everyone else does - which means that they have to feel like Shadowrun magicians rather than Arabian Nights magicians.

-Username17

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:53 pm

I disagree. Even currently in D&D casters can't just auto break through walls. It is only an option and one not available until higher levels. It takes "effort" to do what is necessary to be able to break walls just as it takes "effort" to perform any action to do anything. So if your major complaint is how long it takes a fighter to break through a wall then you simply have to make a maneuver(option) for a fighter so that instead of taking a moment of concentration (which seems like effort to me) to break through the wall they take a moment of physical effort to do the same thing at the same level then blam! Problem solved. (there are break DCs for crap just make a fighter strong enough to meet them)

Alternatively if your complaint was that a wizard has the option of not letting the wall be a problem (IE going ethereal) then there-in we have problems. When faced with points like this I'd say in exchange for not being able to walk through walls we just make the fighter more able to handle things that can. I mean honestly if a wizard stays in a wall the entire fight he doesn't matter in the fight now does he?

I've never played Shadowrun so I don't have anything to say about the comparison but last time I played fantasy Warhammer (over 2 years ago) as the rules were explained to me casting spells was dangerous, progressed slowly, were easily overcome, and were dangerous to perform. Unless you're talking about the war game.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:32 pm

MGuy wrote:Alternatively if your complaint was that a wizard has the option of not letting the wall be a problem (IE going ethereal) then there-in we have problems. When faced with points like this I'd say in exchange for not being able to walk through walls we just make the fighter more able to handle things that can. I mean honestly if a wizard stays in a wall the entire fight he doesn't matter in the fight now does he?

1) Have you never heard of flyby Attack + wall bitching? It makes you functionally invulnerable to anything that needs to use more than a standard action, and combined with tremorsense, it makes you immune to standard action melee monsters too. All this with absolutely zero lost combat ability.

2) The problem isn't that the Wizard can hide in a wall during combat. The problem is that this is "Dungeons & Dragons" and every Dungeon is instantly saddled with bullshit "walls are made of shitty MCshit shit, you can't go through them" whenever the Wizard says, "I cast Divination spell and determine the location of thing I am seeking. Then I fly through the floor and/or walls to get there bypassing all challenges, then I grab what I want and leave, and unless the Dragon guarding it can also fly through walls, he can't even do shit."

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:51 pm

1) I refer you to my statement that you so elegantly quoted than disregarded:

When faced with points like this I'd say in exchange for not being able to walk through walls we just make the fighter more able to handle things that can.

2) Now if we're talking about the ability to slip through dungeons then that is something else altogether. I am assuming then that you are suggesting that fighters be able to do the same thing? How would making everyone able to slip through walls to bypass any and all challenges in a dungeon make the game better exactly?

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:52 pm

You still don't get it. This is not about wizards breaking walls. It isn't about the fighter needing higher stats. The wizard plays a different game. He doesn't care about stats. The wizard's strength lies in simply not caring about the rules the opponents use. For everything the mundanes can do there is at least one spell that counters all of it with a single action. The only limits on how big an opponent a wizard can handle is his available spell slots and actions, and those restrictions start to go away pretty soon.

Look at Silent Image. That spell pretty much allows you to autohide from any mindless undead or construct, allows you to cost pretty much anything at least an action, allows you to set ambushes and traps, advance next to every non-combat plot, foils ranged attacks, the list just goes on and on. And quite often you don't even get a save against it. Often the only recourse against it is a permanent True Seeing effect. And that is a level 1 spell. Yet it can alter the entire game.

Protection from Evil among other things blocks Posession, Dominate effects and the like. No save, no failure chance, it just blocks it. Comprehend Languages lets you understand anything. Drow sign language? Druidic? Ancient Runes? Who cares. Feather Fall pretty much renders cliffs harmless. Charm Person is crazy good. Grease is often an autowin against constructs, regardless of level. This is a first level core only wizard and he already ignores large parts of skill rules, the movement rules, the perception rules and can totally fuck over anyone with a weak will save, reflex save, anyone mindless, anyone not hostile, anyone without scent, ignores chasms and pits and understands any language in the game.

Let me give you just a few other examples. At third level the wizard can send a message to anyone in a 3 mile radius, read minds and ignore mundane ranged attacks. At fifth level he can fly, automatically win against any mindless undead and set deadly traps. At 7th level he gets to ignore grapples, doors and most obstacles and to raise armies. At 9th level he becomes close to unkillable, break curses the fighter will never be able to even detect and construct most mundane goods from thin air.

How does the fighter you envision keep up with that?

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:57 pm

MGuy wrote:2) Now if we're talking about the ability to slip through dungeons then that is something else altogether. I am assuming then that you are suggesting that fighters be able to do the same thing? How would making everyone able to slip through walls to bypass any and all challenges in a dungeon make the game better exactly?

No one is saying that, We are saying wizards can do this kind of crap, so the fighter better be able to do something of equal utility too. And just being able to fight decently doesn't cut it. Being able to fight is a requirement - but you also need to do other stuff. And in a world like DnD that means breaking reality. Everyone else already does.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:23 pm

MGuy wrote:1) I refer you to my statement that you so elegantly quoted than disregarded:
When faced with points like this I'd say in exchange for not being able to walk through walls we just make the fighter more able to handle things that can.

The Fighter isn't fighting Wizards, and the Wizard isn't fighting Fighters. The Wizard gets to be totally invulnerable half the MM at no cost. The other half can still fuck with him. Fighters don't get to be invulnerable to any of the monsters in the MM.

MGuy wrote:2) Now if we're talking about the ability to slip through dungeons then that is something else altogether. I am assuming then that you are suggesting that fighters be able to do the same thing? How would making everyone able to slip through walls to bypass any and all challenges in a dungeon make the game better exactly?

I would propose that Fighters get cool abilities on that level. Things they can do that Wizards can't. Things that are not "I can beat up a monster" but that are, "I can smell the treasure, and hear the Dragon sitting on it, he sounds like a Red Dragon, we should use fire resistance."

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:45 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: If you want to have non magical characters at all, your magical characters have to play by the physics rules that everyone else does - which means that they have to feel like Shadowrun magicians rather than Arabian Nights magicians.

I'm all for that. I honestly don't see a problem with Shadowrun magicians. They work within the world, instead of acting to dominate it and don't do crap like break the economy.

Ditching the godly fairy tale magic makes the game world more consistent and believable, and generally just improves everything. And it's not like SR mages can't do a lot of interesting things.

And it saves people the trouble of thinking up ways why fairy tale wizards don't break the game world. That really just becomes an exercise in futility.

"I can use wish to get infinite gold."
"Haha, you can conjure gold, but now I'll make gold worthless! Take that fucker!"
"Well I'll use the wishes to make magical items and trade them."
"All wish conjured magical items can only be traded for gold!"
"Well I'll just conjure materials to craft magic items and make my own powerful ones. I have infinite materials since I have infinite gold."
"Um.... you can't do that... because... there are um.. epic ogre magi and there's this spell and uh..."

In the end it just comes down to the fact that you don't want wizards to break the game world. And that's understandable because once they do, there is no game. So why not just make it so they can't do that?

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:05 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: As long as "magic" doesn't have to follow the rules, as long as it has an incredibly generous and narrative physics engine, your warrior class should just be the Cleric.

Fine. Let's do that. Leave everything in as normal but add a better hit die and weapon ability.
If it heals more, it's a Paladin.
If it summons more, it's a Ranger.
If it does crazy martial arts shit with buffs more, it's a Monk.
But for fuck's sake everyone stop bitching about the past in this thread.

Everyone knows the old incarnation sucks and doesn't work by virtue of its design.
So.
What are you going to change about it?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:39 pm

-Murtak: I already understand what you've been saying. A wizard can do things fighters can't. And really that's what this is all about judging from what your examples of what makes a wizard better. The fact that they can do things beyond the realm of a fighter. I too think that versatility is nicer to have then specializing and when people say that it is unfair a fighter can't get to or can't fight his challenges I agreed it was a problem but:

Murtak wrote:
MGuy wrote:2) Now if we're talking about the ability to slip through dungeons then that is something else altogether. I am assuming then that you are suggesting that fighters be able to do the same thing? How would making everyone able to slip through walls to bypass any and all challenges in a dungeon make the game better exactly?
No one is saying that, We are saying wizards can do this kind of crap, so the fighter better be able to do something of equal utility too. And just being able to fight decently doesn't cut it. Being able to fight is a requirement - but you also need to do other stuff. And in a world like DnD that means breaking reality. Everyone else already does.

You are saying exactly that. That it is better for a fighter to be able to slip past challenges like a wizard. Now really who plays a fighter to avoid combat? Who plays a fighter to set up situations where they don't have to fight? Why do I, the guy who decided to stab people for the entirety of my career, give a damn that a wizard can send a message 3 miles away? Can a wizard fight better than me? Can, if I'm not fighting, I do things that I would normally want to do? Can I defend myself against the horrors I might have to beat up in my daily dangerous life? Can I get the chance to fight whatever I want? These are the questions anyone who's playing a class SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO FIGHT would be asking themselves. So what of people who want to do things like send a message 3 miles away? Well they should A) play the class that allows them to do that or B) cross class into a class that allows them to do that.

If a wizard can trump a golem then a fighter should be able to trump it in a fight. If a wizard can to detect the thoughts of an enemy a fighter should be able sense an enemies motives. If a wizard can break a wall the fighter should have a way to do the same. What the fuck do I care what wizards can do to bypass a challenge without fighting? I'm a fighter if I'm not fighting why the fuck did I choose to be one? Because I wanted to be able to tell people I can wield a sword or to be able to use one?

-Kaelik: 1) GOOD I don't want my fighter to "get" to be invulnerable. I want him to kick ass.

2) I have not once said anything against being able to do that. Hell I posted earlier that they should get the ability to do exactly those kinds of things!

K · Post by K » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:51 am

Murtak wrote:
Let me give you just a few other examples. At third level the wizard can send a message to anyone in a 3 mile radius, read minds and ignore mundane ranged attacks. At fifth level he can fly, automatically win against any mindless undead and set deadly traps. At 7th level he gets to ignore grapples, doors and most obstacles and to raise armies. At 9th level he becomes close to unkillable, break curses the fighter will never be able to even detect and construct most mundane goods from thin air.

How does the fighter you envision keep up with that?

I think Murtak is more on the right track here. Now, the fact that I can come up with answers to these.....

-Send a message: messenger hawk training.

-Read minds: A Sense motive/Diplomacy ability; see "any cop movie ever".

-Ignore Mundane Ranged attacks: Tower Shield.

-Fly: a tricky one, but making flying overall more dangerous and less Supermanish goes a long way, so it can be duplicated by flying mounts (I have no problem with a pegasus or griffon becoming a standard character accessory like extra daggers and lamp oil).

-Ignored Grapples: a master wrestler ability., or even a Perfect Dodge ability where you submarine in exchange for attacks.

-Auto-win vs. undead. Heck, just make the fighter auto win vs any mindless stuff by giving hima hordebreaker or hold the line ability. I mean, mindless crap is an event if its a spider swarm and a trap if's its giant bug, so players autowinning vs these challenges should be no worse than avoiding a storm(event) or bypassing a guard-dog chained to a post (trap).

-Raise armies: did that one in the OP.

-As for the last three, I think they represent massive problem areas in the DnD and don't need to be ported at all.

-----------------------------

So yeh, I'm all for Shadowrun magicians that are allowed to progress with levels and less fairy tales. Mountain punching doesn't make for good stories when it's done by magicians, and having warriors do it doesn't make it better. I mean, it's super hard to tell stories about gods that are meaningful; that's why The Authority takes breaks of years between story arcs.

I mean, do we really need Wishes?

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:23 am

MGuy wrote:GOOD I don't want my fighter to "get" to be invulnerable. I want him to kick ass.

That's all very fine and well, but once you reach higher levels in D&D, kicking ass doesn't matter. Your 20th level Fighter might be able to disembowel most enemies in a single round, but his skill at arms is utterly and completely irrelevant whenever Wizards of the same level are bending reality to their will with the greatest of ease. They aren't at the same power level - fuck, they aren't even playing the same game.

It's like putting this guy:

Up against this guy:

I mean, who do you think is gonna come out on top of THAT battle?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:31 am

Isn't this whole thread about putting the two on the same level?

-Edit for a better question. If we hypothetically did make a fighter that could kill anything that exists would we then have the fighter we are looking for? I am getting confused as to whether or not we are looking for an effective fighter or we are looking at making another caster. For that matter what is the criteria for effective?

2nd edit for more understanding: What exactly are we comparing the fighter's abilities to? I was assuming we were just worrying about the monsters it faced not what powers the wizard can pull out of its ass. For that matter what is the standard for caster? Is it a wizard? If so what is the "standard" wizard we are comparing it to?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:34 am

The first is level 5, 6 tops. The Second is level 7-20.

Remember, this is the "Adventures of Thor and Loki"; or "Shiva and Krishna Battle the Hell Demons", as soon as you are level seven.

Not, "Herakles Battles the Hydra"; a level 6 Adventure.

It should be noted that Herakles battles 13 encounters his own level. Plus some side ones.

He levels up to god-level. Dies, becomes a full on god. Then goes on to have god level adventures.

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:58 am

One of the pre-level-up adventures is resolved by rerouting rivers. This takes him one day.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:13 am

K wrote:I mean, do we really need Wishes?

Of course not. Actual genies don't grant wishes. They are just really powerful and enter into contracts to fulfill your wishes with their powers. Having a reality line edit effect is actually an insult to the original source material. But let's get onto some of the other stuff:

-Send a message: messenger hawk training.

-Read minds: A Sense motive/Diplomacy ability; see "any cop movie ever".

-Ignore Mundane Ranged attacks: Tower Shield.

But that still doesn't really address the core imbalance. While you can indeed limit the world's magical options to ones that have a mundane equivalent, the fact is that the magic version is still better. Sending communications instantly and flawlessly is better than sending a messenger bird back and forth. And it always will be. Indeed, that's the entire point. Similarly it's better to be able to read a guy's mind and find out exactly what his lie is than simply to be a good enough judge of character to know the guy is telling a lie. And so on with each and every action on the list.

Even if you take away all the stuff like Walls of Stone and Flight and Multidimensional Teleportation that simply have no mundane equivalent, the fact is that in this rubric, the "magic" version of any action is always and persistently the better version of that action. You can physically do something (talk, jump, protect yourself, train troops, seduce women), or you can do it like magic. And however well you manage to pull it off physically, the magic version is turned up to 11.

So fuck it. Don't split the game up into people who do everything at 1-10 and other people who do everything at 11. That's fucked up. Make everyone do things at 1-10 and when they get to 11 you announce that it's magic. Everyone gets some very impressive tricks, and those are magic. The rest of the stuff they do physically. The model we're looking at here is Adepts from Shadowrun and Earthdawn.

-Username17

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:29 am

MGuy wrote:-Edit for a better question. If we hypothetically did make a fighter that could kill anything that exists would we then have the fighter we are looking for?

No. That gives you a despairing DM and a fighter that probably still can't touch the wizard. Again: Killing stuff is not enough. What you want is probably a fighter who can go 50/50 against monsters of his CR (this will require many crazy combat abilities and no numerical boost at all) and who also has noncombat abilities appropriate to his level. He doesn't necessarily need to be able to avoid combat like a wizard - heck, even the wizard certainly could stand losing a few of his abilities. But he should have an answer to a lava-filled moat or to a chained watchdog of his CR + 8.

K · Post by K » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:55 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
But that still doesn't really address the core imbalance. While you can indeed limit the world's magical options to ones that have a mundane equivalent, the fact is that the magic version is still better. Sending communications instantly and flawlessly is better than sending a messenger bird back and forth. And it always will be. Indeed, that's the entire point. Similarly it's better to be able to read a guy's mind and find out exactly what his lie is than simply to be a good enough judge of character to know the guy is telling a lie. And so on with each and every action on the list.

Even if you take away all the stuff like Walls of Stone and Flight and Multidimensional Teleportation that simply have no mundane equivalent, the fact is that in this rubric, the "magic" version of any action is always and persistently the better version of that action. You can physically do something (talk, jump, protect yourself, train troops, seduce women), or you can do it like magic. And however well you manage to pull it off physically, the magic version is turned up to 11.

So fuck it. Don't split the game up into people who do everything at 1-10 and other people who do everything at 11. That's fucked up. Make everyone do things at 1-10 and when they get to 11 you announce that it's magic. Everyone gets some very impressive tricks, and those are magic. The rest of the stuff they do physically. The model we're looking at here is Adepts from Shadowrun and Earthdawn.

-Username17

But you can address the core imbalance. Make the nonmagical equivilent to ESP the crime TV kind where the hero uses wordplay to cause the criminal to reveal their plans. It takes longer than ESP, but if you do it in public you can have the king standing by to see the truth.

And you just do that with everything. The important thing is that it feels nonmagical. It can be as powerful as the magic version or even more powerful in the right situation as long as it feels like a nonmagical thing. The fact that almost no one on this thread sees the potential is disheartening.

I mean, we all know that Earthdawn was a better system at the time, but the reason that no one played it was because it failed on the flavor front. It made the leap to realizing that fighting men needed tricks as interesting as wizards, and it gave it to them, but it failed to realize that people want certain basic things like their elves to be pretty and their warriors to feel nonmagical (I'll relieve the suspense.... their version of elves had thorns in their skin and bled constantly....).

The first and most basic change is to just take the magic and crank it down to 1-10. Why should the the default for every spell be a 6 second casting time and no nonmagical counter? For utility spells, it doesn't matter if it takes as long as the nonmagical version or even longer, or if magic was a fragile thing interrupted by basic stuff (maybe a gold circlet on your head prevents ESP).

I mean, the decent "wizards as main characters" novels I've read that had believable worlds were constantly working the story around the limitations of magic. The fact that Arneson and Gygax started with a simple and overpowered system doesn't mean that every RPG needs to repeat their mistake.

Since writing a new system involves making each piece whole cloth, making a DnD clone is not just foolish, but a waste of your time.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:15 am

I remember awhile back one of the ideas for boosting the fighter was to give some of their powers a certain level of environmental plot control. There just happens to be a boulder up the hill that's precarious enough for a thrown rock to hit and cause to roll over the monster, or the character coincidentally brought his shark repellent today.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:05 am

K wrote: Since writing a new system involves making each piece whole cloth, making a DnD clone is not just foolish, but a waste of your time.

IMHO you are discussing about semantic's.
You both (Frank&K) agree that the fighter need nice things.
Those things can be magical and non magical.

The problem is - in our imagination/subconcious - magical things have no limitation (because we have no real world things to compare it to).
We can (and should) limit it for game purposes, but it needs constant restraint/control to do it.
The reverse is IMHO true for the non-magical things.

And this problem only gets bigger with more designers/products.

I didnt follow the old TNE threads. So is there a magic system in place, what are the limitations of magic. If we know that, its simpler/easier to design a viable fighter class.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:42 pm

K wrote:But you can address the core imbalance. Make the nonmagical equivilent to ESP the crime TV kind where the hero uses wordplay to cause the criminal to reveal their plans. It takes longer than ESP, but if you do it in public you can have the king standing by to see the truth.

This is bullshit and you ought to know it. When you do something like magic you do it better. That's what being done like magic means. And while you can tell DMs that they should give comparable levels of overall exposition to non-magical inquest, you know that they will not do so. There is no way that sending messenger birds is ever gong to compete with instant flawless telepathic messaging. The Wizards have email and there is nothing you can do with a bird that will make that even.

But you don't have to necessarily. A player can do action A much better than player B and still have the overall game be balanced. That's the whole concept behind dividing up skillsets in the party. If people can only do a few things magically, then however dominant those magical action are it's just specialization. And a cooperative storytelling game can handle specialization. What it can't handle is specializing in "being better than you" - which is why it can't have characters who do everything magically.

If you make a character who does everything magically, you have two options. The first is to let the magic "do stuff" - in which case the guy who does everything magically is a 3rd edition wizard with cosmic power that makes the world and everyone in it feel mall in the pants. The second is to not let magic "do stuff" - and then you have the 4e wizard where every time he takes an action there are completely meaningless blue sparkles but the character can't do anything that actually feels like magic.

Yeah, you can make magic messaging such that you spend weeks researching the name of an imp and then you summon it up and it's as stupid a a trained bird and you have it fly around carrying messages and returning with responses. And if you throw on a few more limitations it'll be no better than training messenger birds. But 4e has shown us that that is a fucking stupid road to walk down.

Now even if you bring wizards back into the realm of Gandalf where they do most of their stuff physically because they only have a few cool tricks, I am genuinely unconvinced that there is room for a hero of any stature who does not have any magic at all. The problem lies with ability accumulation. While you could instantaneously have some reasonably balanced system in which character A had some magic tricks and some lesser abilities at his disposal and character B simply had more lesser tricks at his beck and call; and that could totally be balanced, we have to remember that this is an open ended game. This isn't a war game where one hero model has three spell cards to play and the other hero has cool stuff that isn't as good as a spell card that he can do every round. This isn't a board game where as soon as someone takes down the dragon the game ends. This is an RPG and people keep getting powers for a very very long time.

And the thing is, the more abilities you have, the less having more abilities matters compared to having better abilities. Difficulties and obstacles in a role playing game should generally not be in the format "Blue Key [Y/N]?" but rather ones in which you can use many different abilities to push through to victory. And at that point, having at least one appropriate ability becomes more likely the more of them you have, and having better abilities is still having better abilities. No matter how many ways a non magical guy can work for an hour to solve a problem, if the Wizard can solve it instantly with flawless telepathy then the Wizard is still better.

Frankly, Aragorn busts out magic every single time he wants to do anything big. And that should be the model. As you become more bad ass, you get more abilities and you also get more magic abilities that are totally hard core. And if you have enough magical abilities, you're a Wizard. And that's why whenever a character in a Grimm tale runs into "a Wizard" that just means "a dude who is very high level."

-Username17

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:48 pm

-Murtak: I am very confused about your statement. If its just about meeting the challenges that monsters represent then making a killing machine with options that allowed it to get to/and completely murder its prey would solve that.

Lava filled Moat: the ability to jump over it/flying mount
Chained Watch Dog of his CR +8: Sneaking skills (Maybe in addition to a fast running speed or distraction), Handle animal skills, ability to kill anything.

-Username17: Then how about this. We let a wizard specialize in certain things telepathy/rapid/information gathering/resistances vs special effects. Then we make it so that mentioned wizard (magic usage) isn't better than everyone at everything else. How can this be done? Simply reworking spells and what they can and can't do in addition to making certain utility spells available for everyone should go a long way in moving toward that. Monsters that use spells will automatically be nerfed if we nerf their spells so it helps with that problem to.

It might be difficult but that doesn't make it impossible. Additionally I don't see it as much of an improvement over 4e's policy if instead of nerfing magic to not feel like magic we eliminate any difference between not using magic and using magic. If everyone can do everything in why do we even need to have different classes at all? I'd rather instead make sure that no one can do everything then have everyclass be basically a copy of every other one.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:30 pm

Mguy wrote:-Username17: Then how about this. We let a wizard specialize in certain things telepathy/rapid/information gathering/resistances vs special effects. Then we make it so that mentioned wizard (magic usage) isn't better than everyone at everything else. How can this be done? Simply reworking spells and what they can and can't do in addition to making certain utility spells available for everyone should go a long way in moving toward that. Monsters that use spells will automatically be nerfed if we nerf their spells so it helps with that problem to.

You can reduce magic's sphere of influence sufficiently that a character who can use magic is simply a specialist within whatever that sphere happens to be. For example, if you run a world where Magic only summons and banishes demons (and demons are fairly non-open-ended about what they can do), then you can have magic characters who are "demon specialists" and other characters who are specialists in other fields. If you have a class system, you can have different magic classes that specialize in different things. Maybe White Magic heals, so a White Mage is a healing specialist while Black Magic summons the aforementioned demons and a Black Mage is a summoning specialist. Such a system could still have people who were specialists in needed fields who happened to not have any magic at all - just so long as none of the magic classes had access to whatever the thing it is that they did with their life (see Shadowrun and hacking specialists).

But you seem caught up in somehow being able to satisfactorily do something like that to Dungeons and Dragons. That ain't happening. Magic does fucking everything and there are monsters that have access to fucking everything as well. If you divide it up so that only Illusionists make illusions and Illusionists only make illusions - then that won't stop a Gelugon from making Illusions and flying around and putting up protection auras and making walls and domes and blasting things with icy death. You aren't just looking at rewriting the entire PHB, but also the DMG, the Monster Manual, and every sourcebook and setting. You are, in short writing a new game if you go that route.

But back on that idea, it still probably isn't the direction K & myself want to go. Because to do that in a workable fashion you'd need to hard divide the magic up and currently we're leaning towards a system where you select your powers and then select your class. Meaning that hard dividing ability access into spheres is impossible.

As I see it, the desirable point is to either:

Make Magic abilities cost more than non-magical ones.
Give every player a set of magical abilities distinct and purchased separately from the nonmagical ones.
Restrict magical abilities so that they only exist for things for which there is no mundane equivalent.

-Username17