TNE: Nonmagical Fighter Idea Lab

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:01 am

And what exactly keeps wizards from walking around with iron, salt and garlic? Besides, I find it pretty dull that the only way of fucking with guys who cast spells is to keep them from casting spells. Stuff like dispel and disjunction usually are more annoying than actually fun.

Why are people so dead set on this idea of fighters not being able to do cool stuff? If you want a gritty and realistic game, you probably don't want magic having an overt, world-changing effect in the first place. Except for with rituals or something that takes hours and doesn't have a lot of practical applications in a one-on-one fight. Heck, the iron-salt-garlic solution only really addresses such a situation in the first place, it doesn't address how fighters are going to be able to take on the same challenges as the wizards, just how a fighter might want to tackle a wizard himself.

8headeddragon · Post by **8headeddragon** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:27 am

Thymos wrote: Frank I think the only way to please everyone is to split the game into tiers.

We can have the normal tier where mages and everyone are playing on equal ground.

Then we throw in the heroic tier, mages are started to get better, warriors abilities are starting to become more magical.

By the time we hit epic then mages and fighters should both be using the same amount of magic, or at least the fighter's superhuman feats should be powered by magic even if they aren't spells.

This is if people still want DnD style magic. I personally think DnD style magic reeks more of putting plot devices in the game than anything else.

+1 this. For all the years this issue has been thrown around, the more I've thought that the scale of power needed to be outlined. We've seen the "____ was only level 5" arguments before. I know one fellow who favors higher levels of play over lower levels of play out of a desire to play characters that don't work well at lower levels, despite the fact that such characters are actually going to be even more dwarfed at that level of play. Sure spellcasters may be almost as scary at lower levels as they are at high levels, but the meleer's life doesn't get really bad until the levels start getting up there.

A good start would be to establish from the beginning that one level bracket keeps spellcasters tame enough that meleers do okay-- even better if this level of play keeps the inexpensive nonmagical toys (i.e. caltrops) in play for a good while. After that a bracket for the superheroic types who push the limits, which may or may not be a part of league where everyone needs to use magic and supernatural stuff.

In the former bracket the world is like Dragonball, the classic one. A boy can kill dinosaurs and fight with adults because he's unusually strong. The latter bracket(s) get you Dragonball Z where everyone who matters is flying around and blowing up mountains (but hopefully without the part where only one guy can win the encounter and everyone else sucks). Would we expect a talented but ordinary human with a sword to kill a T-Rex? He might pull it off and be lauded a legendary warrior if he did so. Would we expect that same guy to hold a candle to the DBZ lot? Probably not, if he's too ordinary to shrug off exploding mountains.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:55 am

Mauver wrote:And what exactly keeps wizards from walking around with iron, salt and garlic? Besides, I find it pretty dull that the only way of fucking with guys who cast spells is to keep them from casting spells. Stuff like dispel and disjunction usually are more annoying than actually fun.

Because, like I said, wearing iron stuff, sprinkling salt everywhere and having a garlic necklace on would make their magic not work and then they would not actually be a wizard.

And saying "The best way to fight a wizard is to wear this thing to make sure he doesn't cast spells on you and then stab him" is exactly the same as saying "The best way to fight a warrior is to wear this thing to make sure he doesn't stab you and then stab him."

Mauver wrote:Why are people so dead set on this idea of fighters not being able to do cool stuff? If you want a gritty and realistic game, you probably don't want magic having an overt, world-changing effect in the first place.

Same reason as monks are cool. "I can kill a polar bear with my bare hands." is cool for the same reason as "I don't need no stinking magic to kill a dragon." is.

Mauver wrote:Except for with rituals or something that takes hours and doesn't have a lot of practical applications in a one-on-one fight. Heck, the iron-salt-garlic solution only really addresses such a situation in the first place, it doesn't address how fighters are going to be able to take on the same challenges as the wizards, just how a fighter might want to tackle a wizard himself.

That is what this thread is for. How does a fighter duplicate/compete against magic stuff? The answer? Iron, salt, garlic, griffons, longbows, and putting Cerberus in a headlock.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:10 pm

To a large extent I worry about the iron/salt/garlic. If you use that it just becomes another height check: you need to carry around these items to compete. Just like needing to have all the various magic items in D&D. It also continues with the theme of fighters needing special equipment to survive and wizards not needing magic equipment.

It is reactive rather than predictive which automatically means that wizards are more interesting, and while there is a demand for simple fighters a lot of people want proactive, interesting fighters.

It also becomes pretty boring with all the PCs wearing the same thing and carrying the same things. Some of the coolest monster things are the details such as vampires being forced to count grains of rice or work out how a knot works. Like K's example of gold circlets stopping telepathy.

However I can see a huge problem with that. The different counters can easily become like puzzle monsters with random ideas of how to deal with the spells, but different settings by different DMs will vary in how things work. So, one DM might like the gold circlet vs ESP, but another might prefer carrying a rabbits foot, another might have a jade earring stop ESP, whatever.

This will lead to a huge amount of confusion, especially if playing in multiple campaigns.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:04 pm

My problem with iron salt garlic is not that it's a height check, it's that it's an AMF field.

Either it cripples Wizards and the game sucks donkey dick to be a Wizard because everyone has fucking iron armor and pouches full of shit, or it doesn't cripple Wizards and they still have protections and mobility over mundanes and still win.

I mean, yes adding +15 to everyones saving throws does make Wizards suck unless they use non saving throw spells, but it doesn't actually make a balanced or fun game of any kind.

Thymos · Post by **Thymos** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:21 pm

They'll just use spells that don't have saving throws then Kaelik. Like fly, force wall, grease etc....

Why are people so dead set on this idea of fighters not being able to do cool stuff? If you want a gritty and realistic game, you probably don't want magic having an overt, world-changing effect in the first place.

That isn't the magic people are talking about. It'd probably be more clear for this whole discussion to split up magic into tiers.

Red- Basic stuff, doesn't really do anything but is neat. Making an apple appear out of thin air.

Orange- Now magic starts mattering, but it doesn't actually surpass or even equal the fighter. This is stuff like throwing out an ice cycle for piddly damage.

Yellow- Now here is what most people seem to want. Magic and Fighters are equal, neither break the basic rules the game relies on. Magic Missile works here, it's just another equivalent way of dealing damage.

Green- At this point magic starts leaving the fighter behind. They get spells that supersede entire skills. Invisibility for example. When playing in a game with the rogue, it's just plain wrong to give another class a spell which replicates the other class's entire feature.

Blue- Now we get into crazy shit. Teleport, Scry and Die, Finger of Death. No one but spellcasters can hope to compete at this level, because they are playing a different game quite literally. If we try to combine the two games nothing really makes sense due to spells like fabricate.

Indigo- Just ratchet Blue up a notch. Demiplanes are made, spells that can singlehandedly kill entire cities appear.

Violet- Not really sure what goes here. This is probably godhood.

(yes, I've been reading paranoia lately)

No one is complaining about people not having magic at the Yellow or lower level. When it's said that fighters need magic to keep up, they don't mean that fighters need to be casting spells. They mean that if Wizards are getting the kind of powers from green onwards fighters need to be getting those kinds of powers as well and from a fluff standpoint it's obvious that those kinds of powers are magical so it's a kneejerk reaction to say bullshit when people tell you they aren't.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:32 pm

At least with readily available AMF it becomes easier to understand how normies can even live in a world where wizards can do crazy stuff. I give my support to simpler, magical protection if for no other reason than that it helps the game world as a whole. Other than that I once again have to ask what are we comparing the fighter to? Some people say he should be able to take on a host of challenges while other people are saying he should match the wizard on every level. My question is whose wizard are we matching? Wizards get a very limited spell list along with a very limited number of spells per day UNLESS they use magic to supplement this. Even so there are different wizard builds that can do very different things. So for the sake of dissipating the confusion when people mention wizards can we get an idea of what your wizard is/can do?

As for the tier idea, if we were to pull it off we'd still need to be doing what we started to do here. We need to look at what the fighter has to face and suggest abilities to get around those problems at each level. After we get back to doing that it'll be easier to sift through the ideas instead of cartwheeling around the point.

-Edit for after thought: I certainly don't see how carrying certain equipment as part of being a standard adventurer is bad (especially if it doesn't cost much) There are a number of does and don't gets when you're a caster IE As everyone seems to agree you need to be this tall (have fly, scry, and die spells) to be awesome

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:44 pm

Mguy wrote:Some people say he should be able to take on a host of challenges while other people are saying he should match the wizard on every level.

No one gives two shits about PVP balance save that "enemy fighter" and "enemy wizard" are available challenges. The game is about overcoming challenges with your abilities.

But it's also about affecting the world. Non magical feeling people don't affect the world more than a person feels like they ought to be able to - definitionally. Which means that the very moment the wizard's total effect on the campaign world is more than it feels like a nonmagical person would be capable of, a nonmagical feeling character is unable to compete by definition.

It's tautological failure.

-Username17

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:23 pm

Thymos wrote:They'll just use spells that don't have saving throws then Kaelik. Like fly, force wall, grease etc....

Yes, I fucking know that. My point was that iron/salt/garlic is exactly like the following things:

1) AMF field
2) Spell immunity
3) an untyped bonus to saves added to all monsters because your DM hates Glitterdust

And that's the point.

If you add iron salt garlic, you are just declaring a bunch of spells worthless, you might as well just delete those spells.

Yes, if every enemy is a monster in an AMF field, you have to use conjuration creations and conjuration callings in all your slots and you never get to use other spells.

And yes, if everything is SR:infinity, then you make all spells SR: Yes worthless.

And if you add a random untyped bonus to saves between +1 and +20, you are just saying, "I hate spells that offer saving throws, so I'm going to push them off RNG and/or make them less likely to succeed for no reason."

None of those things makes the game a better game. We talked a thousand times about how "My whole campaign is in an AMF, so Fighters are balanced." is not just an Oberoni, but also a shitty game.

So if you just say, "Iron gives +15 to all saving throws, everyone who isn't a spellcaster carries around iron." (because they would) Then all you have done is say that Casters aren't allowed to cast spells at non casters.

Now you just have two games running side by side, and like all running side by side, only one is really happening at once, so if half the fights are Fighter vs Ogre, and the other half are Outsider vs Wizard, then you have a perfect recipe for Smash brothers and you game sucks.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:49 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Mguy wrote:Some people say he should be able to take on a host of challenges while other people are saying he should match the wizard on every level.
No one gives two shits about PVP balance save that "enemy fighter" and "enemy wizard" are available challenges. The game is about overcoming challenges with your abilities.

But it's also about affecting the world. Non magical feeling people don't affect the world more than a person feels like they ought to be able to - definitionally. Which means that the very moment the wizard's total effect on the campaign world is more than it feels like a nonmagical person would be capable of, a nonmagical feeling character is unable to compete by definition.

It's tautological failure.

-Username17

Ok well if it goes beyond the scope of challenges then what is "affecting the world"? What standard do we use to tell whether or not one person affects the world more than another?

-Kaelik: But saying that wizards always have fly, always have save/die spells, always have any spell you consider standard isn't that th same thing as expecting fighters to always have abilities that enable them to fly, plane shift, teleport? What is the difference between people deciding that iron is the standard adventuring gear and you'd better get some salt if you want to have a conversation remain private? Those measures are in effect just like casting spells that do the same thing and if you really just want fighters to have the same thing don't those measures elegantly cover it? What is the difference between standard gear vs standard spells/abilities?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:01 pm

MGuy wrote:-Kaelik: But saying that wizards always have fly, always have save/die spells, always have any spell you consider standard isn't that th same thing as expecting fighters to always have abilities that enable them to fly, plane shift, teleport? What is the difference between people deciding that iron is the standard adventuring gear and you'd better get some salt if you want to have a conversation remain private? Those measures are in effect just like casting spells that do the same thing and if you really just want fighters to have the same thing don't those measures elegantly cover it? What is the difference between standard gear vs standard spells/abilities?

I have no idea what you are even trying to say. If something that everyone you care about has makes them immune to your spells, then those spells don't matter, and shouldn't exist. If having a pinch of salt instantly makes all divinations cease to work on you, than no divinations should actually exist in the game, they are just a trap.

If Iron makes you immune to spells that target you, than Wizards can only cast target spells at other Wizards who can't afford to have iron. And so the game consists of Fighters with Magic resist infinity, and Wizards with sword resist infinity, and both people take turns fighting monsters and neither one ever beats a threat to the other one.

It's not about whether or not fighters can have iron, it's about what iron negating spells does to the game, and the first thing it does is make the game two separate games that just happen to occur at the same time. And that's shitty.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:14 pm

But isn't most of the game being spent fighting against things that aren't fighters? Most creatures aren't going to have salt so readily available or even know that it prevents scrying. Bad guys that you care about, as the game is, probably have something that screws your scrying anyway. If you really want fighters to stand on equal game with casters then you'd end up giving them some kind of mind blank or insane saves in the end because there are spells that do the same thing.

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:28 pm

MGuy wrote:But isn't most of the game being spent fighting against things that aren't fighters?

Depends entirely on the game. I've certainly played in campaigns where upwards of 95% of the enemies we faced were intelligent enough to carry that stuff if it would help them.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:17 pm

Wait folks, why don't we just give fighters similar tricks to wizards at higher levels, isn't the whole point of "Fighters don't get nice things" an outgrowth of fluff constraints made real? The crazy-go-nuts wizard stuff gets nipped in the bud (via casting time/power/whatever) and the stabby class can get analogues to the casty class shit.

Wizard can D-Door, Fighter has Flash Step/can move really fast.

Wizard casts Stoneskin/Ironbody, Fighter is made of SQUATZ N OATZ and can break swords with his face.

Wizard turns into a bear, Fighter flips the fuck out and becomes bestial.

Wizard can fly, Fighter can jump high/ensnare the cheeky bastard.

Wizard makes mystical walls, Fighter can kick it down.

Wizard casts Teleport, it is not useful in a combat sense (slow and noticeable portal appearance, Dungeonomicon stuff), et. al.

The magic can come from items, everything else is a fluff issue. The tier level idea is also a good one though.

Just another user · Post by **Just another user** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:38 pm

It is all about tastes, but I'd prefer to add some limitation to wizards/magic rather than making fighters 'awesum'.

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:45 pm

That really seems to be the issue here. Different people want a different game. But I don't see why there can't be a system that has both of these games at once; at lower levels you have limited magic and non-'awesum' fighters, and at higher levels magic gets powerful and world-altering and so do the abilities attained by fighters, whether you want to call them "magic" or not. I think Mask De H is on the right track here, and it's pretty futile to argue the semantics of fluff debating what is and is not "magic".

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:06 pm

MGuy wrote:But isn't most of the game being spent fighting against things that aren't fighters? Most creatures aren't going to have salt so readily available or even know that it prevents scrying. Bad guys that you care about, as the game is, probably have something that screws your scrying anyway. If you really want fighters to stand on equal game with casters then you'd end up giving them some kind of mind blank or insane saves in the end because there are spells that do the same thing.

There is a difference between Mindblank and Iron gives SR infinity.

Mindblank is already bad fore negating a crap ton of spells and make the game shittier for it. Giving everything in the game that can't cast spells SR infinity is pretty shitty.

As for fighting other things that fighters, again: Three types of opponents. Ones with low Int that are beaten by a first level spell. Ones that are smart and cast spells. Ones that are smart and don't cast spells.

No one cares about the first one, and between the second two, giving Iron to fighters does nothing to help them kill Wizards who fly around invisible. So all you've done is separate things into two categories, Casters that can't effect Fighters, and Fighters that can't affect casters.

For the purposes of this, Balors count as casters, and Hill Giants count as Fighters. Balors don't wear armor because they can't teleport or use Power Word Stun if they do. Hill Giants do wear metal and therefore the Wizard just watches the Fighter fight him.

See how this didn't help at all?

Mauver wrote:That really seems to be the issue here. Different people want a different game. But I don't see why there can't be a system that has both of these games at once; at lower levels you have limited magic and non-'awesum' fighters, and at higher levels magic gets powerful and world-altering and so do the abilities attained by fighters, whether you want to call them "magic" or not. I think Mask De H is on the right track here, and it's pretty futile to argue the semantics of fluff debating what is and is not "magic".

Well, mostly it's because the people who want non magical fighters object to the idea that magical fighters exist at all in their world. So Tiers forces them to admit that one day Batman the bad ass normal will get Superpowers, and that upsets them, even if they never see it.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:16 pm

Well I think its just a start, maybe a step in a better direction. We can all agree that a number of things just ruin the game for everybody though. I think we should look to take steps toward the right direction. I think in either case we should get back on the path of identifying challenges and ways to overcome them. We've already had posts as to what we should do to handle the flight probelm.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:55 pm

What's a good solution for breathing under water for hours at a time?

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:32 am

Kaelik wrote: Well, mostly it's because the people who want non magical fighters object to the idea that magical fighters exist at all in their world. So Tiers forces them to admit that one day Batman the bad ass normal will get Superpowers, and that upsets them, even if they never see it.

So what you could do is play a sort of "E6" kind of game where characters simply stick within the first one or two tiers. Nobody into tier 2 or tier 3 or whatever's considered the benchmark for "too good" even exists in the setting in the first place, and no one's ever going to end up there because that's not the kind of game people are trying to have.

E6 didn't actually fix anything with 3.5, but it did give the option to run a kind of game that was a bit more akin to the "gritty western fantasy" that a lot of people are after.

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:06 am

Grek wrote:What's a good solution for breathing under water for hours at a time?

Didn't Beowulf just do that, on his own, to fight Grendel's mother, or something?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:50 am

I think there are feats leaning towards that in the water book (forget the name) but if not just have a feat that mimics hold breath or something. Not sure will check.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:47 am

Yeah, I agree about the iron/garlic/salt being too like an AMF.

I quite like the being tough enough to just breathe water, with their lungs being strong and effective enough to use water instead of air. At the same time the lungs are strong enough to ignore gaseous spells such as cloudkill.

In comparison, wizards get just as good, possibly slightly better water breathing, but they aren't immune to gases and would need another spell for that.

Just another user · Post by **Just another user** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:55 pm

Grek wrote:What's a good solution for breathing under water for hours at a time?

What about something like this, there is a rare plant with magical properties, if you make a breathing mask with his leaves it can filter oxygen out of the air and let you breath, or maybe you must chew its seeds/flowers/root to have the same effect.

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:06 pm

Just another user wrote:
Grek wrote:What's a good solution for breathing under water for hours at a time?
What about something like this, there is a rare plant with magical properties, if you make a breathing mask with his leaves it can filter oxygen out of the air and let you breath, or maybe you must chew its seeds/flowers/root to have the same effect.

Someone's been playing Phantasy Star II!