TNE: Nonmagical Fighter Idea Lab

[IGTN]

What's a good solution for breathing under water for hours at a time?

What about something like this, there is a rare plant with magical properties, if you make a breathing mask with his leaves it can filter oxygen out of the air and let you breath, or maybe you must chew its seeds/flowers/root to have the same effect.

How about something like this: There's a magic helmet wizards can make that if a fighter puts it on he can move around and breathe freely underwater? If he needs one he can beg it from the party wizard or find one that the DM gave him.

That's seriously not far from what you're suggesting. The Beowulf approach, where you're just that tough is the way to go here.

[Just another user]

What's a good solution for breathing under water for hours at a time?

What about something like this, there is a rare plant with magical properties, if you make a breathing mask with his leaves it can filter oxygen out of the air and let you breath, or maybe you must chew its seeds/flowers/root to have the same effect.

How about something like this: There's a magic helmet wizards can make that if a fighter puts it on he can move around and breathe freely underwater? If he needs one he can beg it from the party wizard or find one that the DM gave him.

That's seriously not far from what you're suggesting. The Beowulf approach, where you're just that tough is the way to go here.

I think it is far enough, with the plant approach you don't need a wizard, you go and search the plant yourself. A plant with magical properties hurts my suspension of disbelief less than a fighter turning into Aquaman at high levels. what is next? A fighter becoming so strong that he can fly moving his arms up and down fast?

[Username17]

So your solution is to have the Fighter wait until the wizard casts a spell on him or you find a magic item that duplicates the spell?

How generous. What, pray tell, does the Wizard have to wait on the Fighter to accomplish?

-Username17

[Ganbare Gincun]

How generous. What, pray tell, does the Wizard have to wait on the Fighter to accomplish?

To witness suckage in action?

[MGuy]

How about we just let a fighter hold his breath for large amounts of time (minute per point of con) and let them make fort saves/swim check there after (1 does not equal auto fail) starting with 10 then +1 every following minute.

[8headeddragon]

Some humble questions. Sure we all want the fighter to have an important way to contribute, but should he really have a James Bond arsenal? Similarly, should the wizard really have a Bond arsenal? Should every character be independently equipped for any challenge, or should they have to help each other out because it's impossible to cover all ground?

If the system is being redone, the makers ought to know better than to make the major spellcasters independent of the rest of the party. With that taken care of, one more question-- is there really no medium between "breaks the game" and "doesn't matter"? "Magic goes to 11", but impeding magic automatically makes it a 1 instead of a 5 or a 7. Maybe the next challenge is loosening that extreme up.

On the actual topic itself, if the fighter is going to have nice things on the battlefield, they should be able to handle battlefield control better than anybody else. If the fighter is going to have nice ways to solve problems outside of battle, using an old fashioned nonmagical solution can still be acceptable if for whatever reasons 1) either only they can do it, or it's much harder for anybody else to do it well, or 2) the cost for doing it the magical way is going to cost more in one form or another. What is the wizard sacrificing if he casts Water Breathing, Dark Way, and Teleport? Make it literally more expensive in the sense that it costs him something, or make it more expensive in that taking that measure costs him the freedom to take other measures.

For a discussion on balance there seems to be a lot of focus on the idea that doing things the most awesome way is the only way it can ever be relevant.

[Murtak]

Wait folks, why don't we just give fighters similar tricks to wizards at higher levels, isn't the whole point of "Fighters don't get nice things" an outgrowth of fluff constraints made real? The crazy-go-nuts wizard stuff gets nipped in the bud (via casting time/power/whatever) and the stabby class can get analogues to the casty class shit.

Wizard can D-Door, Fighter has Flash Step/can move really fast.

Wizard casts Stoneskin/Ironbody, Fighter is made of SQUATZ N OATZ and can break swords with his face.

Wizard turns into a bear, Fighter flips the fuck out and becomes bestial.

Wizard can fly, Fighter can jump high/ensnare the cheeky bastard.

Wizard makes mystical walls, Fighter can kick it down.

Wizard casts Teleport, it is not useful in a combat sense (slow and noticeable portal appearance, Dungeonomicon stuff), et. al.

The magic can come from items, everything else is a fluff issue. The tier level idea is also a good one though.

I agree, except for teleport. That is a story power and a world altering power, and fighters need those too, not just combat powers.

[Parthenon]

8headed has a point. There doesn't just have to be an awesome way of doing things. There can be a pretty shitty way of doing something as long as it is low level or at the boundaries of when you need to be able to do something.

As an example, I'd actually be fine with chewing a herb that lets you breathe water, or a sort of seaweed letting you breathe air. It lets you have a variety of stories. I'd even be okay with having a drawback such as needing a Swift action each round to concentrate enough to chew. At about levels 3-8.

However I think that later on you should definitely be badass enough to breathe water. And poisonous fumes. And maybe even vacuum.

(Urgh, my mind is getting messed up on breath/breathe. Now both of them look wrong.)

[violence in the media]

As a magic nerf, what if most spells took until the beginning of your next turn to cast? So, you start to cast sleep in round 1, and then you have the entire initiative pass and complete the casting right before your turn in round 2. You're still casting spells once per round, but now there's a larger window of interruption or reaction, and the fighters get to fulfill the (apparently desired) paradigm of being necessary to protect the wizard. Magic can still be awesome, but this might contribute to making fighters necessary, which is something they aren't currently.

I'd think we still need to make fighters individually more awesome though. Another minor thing we could do is let fighters lose that -20 penalty to maintaining a grapple while doing anything else. I like the idea of a fighter keeping some enemy in a headlock while hacking at some other dudes with his weapon.

For a non-combat travel power, what about something like an Exhortation of Swiftness -- Anyone travelling with the fighter may use their natural Run speed for overland travel, without suffering any negative effects, provided they remain within 100' of the fighter. This speed increase applies to mounts as well.

That would need tightening up on the rules wording, but the idea would be that the fighter allows a group to travel faster than magical flight, can extend this speed increase to more people, doesn't cost them anything, and doesn't affect enhanced speeds. It would provide a choice in travel methods for parties, and allow them to potentially do things that magic couldn't easily replicate. This sort of thing would help get the refugees to Helm's Deep or march reinforcements to the front, as opposed to allowing a small strike team to bypass terrain or simply teleport to a location.

edit to add: The Exhortation of Swiftness power could level up to Secret Paths, which allows the fighter and friends to travel up to 10 x Survival Check result in miles per day and eventually allows planar travel, as others have suggested before.

Also, some additional semi-serious ideas:

You could also have the powers of I Know a Guy, which lets the fighter pull some Deux Ex bullshit to move or push the plot every so often; and I Planned on This, which lets him pull necessary things out of his pants. Party is stuck and can't find the info they need? The fighter Knows a Guy. They never found the password for the secret door? The fighter Knows the Doorman's Sister, and got if from her. The party gets DM captured? The fighter Planned on This and stashed equipment. He also Knows a Guy and planted a mole in the guard rotation.

These abilities could then upgrade to The Fucking Cavalry, which produces your level in CR-2 allies as backup; and Two Steps Ahead, which lets you negate some of your opponent's abilities with minor exposition.

These eventually combine into Fortune Favors...Well, Me and the fighter can, once per level, just declare shit like an unknown great uncle leaves him the deed to a fortress, that a tribe of Hill Giants venerate him as the tiny reincarnation of their beloved leader, or that the Faerie Queen grants him the Timeless Body effect because he's too awesome to let age spoil.

[Emerald]

Also, some additional semi-serious ideas:

You could also have the powers of I Know a Guy, which lets the fighter pull some Deux Ex bullshit to move or push the plot every so often; and I Planned on This, which lets him pull necessary things out of his pants. Party is stuck and can't find the info they need? The fighter Knows a Guy. They never found the password for the secret door? The fighter Knows the Doorman's Sister, and got if from her. The party gets DM captured? The fighter Planned on This and stashed equipment. He also Knows a Guy and planted a mole in the guard rotation.

These abilities could then upgrade to The Fucking Cavalry, which produces your level in CR-2 allies as backup; and Two Steps Ahead, which lets you negate some of your opponent's abilities with minor exposition.

These eventually combine into Fortune Favors...Well, Me and the fighter can, once per level, just declare shit like an unknown great uncle leaves him the deed to a fortress, that a tribe of Hill Giants venerate him as the tiny reincarnation of their beloved leader, or that the Faerie Queen grants him the Timeless Body effect because he's too awesome to let age spoil.

Most of these seem like Awesome Leader- or Mastermind-type powers, not fighter ones in general; having your curmudgeonly loner mercenary Know A Guy doesn't always fit. If you made a bunch of these into small collections of abilities (like Awesome Leader gets Fucking Cavalry plus other abilities, Sneaky Mercenary Bastard gets Know A Guy and I Planned On This plus other abilities, etc.) with a limited ability to crossover, that would probably be more thematically appropriate. In terms of what the abilities themselves do, however, these look very nice.

[Lago PARANOIA]

IF BEOWULF CAN HOLD HIS BREATH UNDERWATER FOR SEVERAL DAYS, THEN A FIGHTER SHOULD BE ABLE TO, TOO.

[Username17]

As a magic nerf, what if most spells took until the beginning of your next turn to cast?

Then that would be a significant nerf to magi used in combat. So much so, that magicians would tend to avoid combat unless they were flying around invisibly so that the long casting times wouldn't be interrupted.

It would have functionally no effect outside of combat. If you need to go to the cloud island on the Ethereal Plane to go save the princess, and extra 12 or 18 seconds here or there means fuck all.

-Username17

[Parthenon]

Yes Lago, we get it. Fighters should be able to hold their breath or otherwise survive underwater for days. Fine. But, at what point? In D&D terms level 1 is too soon, whereas level 20 is stupidly late. At the same time as magic guys can use Water Breathing? 2-4 levels later? Are there other methods to get similar effects such as the chewing gum air supply at different levels?

Then, how to do it? Can all fighters do it? An ability? A feat? A number of ranks in a skill? Automatically for all characters with full BAB at 5HD? How does it interact with multi-classing?

How does it interact with other things? Does it give a bonus against Stinking Cloud or does it make you immune?

Of course we're talking about TNE so this is all rhetorical, but...

---

Just shouting that Fighters should be able to hold their breath is like shouting that Fighters should be able to carry the world on their shoulders because Hercules could. Its useless out of the context of at what point, how it should compare to what others can do, how it could be implemented in general, whether everyone should be able to do it and so on.

[tzor]

There are several dimensions to this problem; it is important not to confuse one dimension with the other. There is a significant different between the original spell user and fighter paradigm; that of the nova and the steady power character. Based on the original concepts, spell casters had limited access to power; as a result the individual uses of these powers were stronger. The fighter’s power, on the other hand was unlimited; in theory he could swing his weapon non stop until the end of the day.

Herein lays the problem. The basic paradigm of the magic wielder, brief bursts of power followed by long periods of “weak as a baby” states where the steady power characters have to protect them was not always fun to play. Thus there was a move to make these magic wielder more steady power characters while at the same time not lowering the over all power levels of the individual effects. The result was power creep.

In this sense the basic premise of the argument is faulty; it’s not that everyone needs to do the exact same thing. This smacks of individualism, where the model should be that of the team, not on the individual. On the one dimension, the features of one class should protect the flaws of the other class so that as a team all flaws are covered. On the second dimension the awesomeness of all classes at any given level should be equal.

[MGuy]

That's the thing. The only way every class can be equal is to give every class the same thing. If we want to keep the classes independent and yet issue them the same amount of awesomeness we need a standard. What is "awesome"? What is "necessary" for all classes?

Frank posted something about every class being able to affect the world equally. I'd ask then what is the standard for "affecting the world"?

Some people have said fighters should be able to do what is appropriate for their level and to this I am confused as to what the standard of "level appropriate" is.

Others have said the fighter should have a certain amount of awesome at certain levels (even suggesting a tier system for it) But what as I asked before what is the standard for "awesome"?

Here's what we need to do. We need a system of measurement, a graph, a table, something that can tell us what a character should be able to do at a given level.

[MartinHarper]

Iron provides some protection against swords, and this doesn't break the game. Therefore garlic can provide some protection against spells without breaking the game. Glitterdust provides a way to see invisible creatures, and this doesn't break the game. Therefore salt can provide a way to see invisible creatures without breaking the game.

[RandomCasualty2]

That's the thing. The only way every class can be equal is to give every class the same thing. If we want to keep the classes independent and yet issue them the same amount of awesomeness we need a standard. What is "awesome"? What is "necessary" for all classes?

Well what we really need to do is set up something that magic can't do.

The main problem with D&D is that magic is good at everything. There should be some category of creatures, or some manner of obstacles that magic just won't bypass. I don't mean anti-magic fields, but I mean some set up where magic just won't help you.

This means basically that the concept of the wizard needs to be reinvisioned, and can't be the "do everything mage" that he is now.

[RandomCasualty2]

That's the thing. The only way every class can be equal is to give every class the same thing. If we want to keep the classes independent and yet issue them the same amount of awesomeness we need a standard. What is "awesome"? What is "necessary" for all classes?

Well what we really need to do is set up something that magic can't do.

The main problem with D&D is that magic is good at everything. There should be some category of creatures, or some manner of obstacles that magic just won't bypass. I don't mean anti-magic fields, but I mean some set up where magic just won't help you.

This means basically that the concept of the wizard needs to be reinvisioned, and can't be the "do everything mage" that he is now.

[MGuy]

That is part of what needs to be done. Though I am in agreement that wizards should be toned down but this particular thread is how do we make fighters what they should be. And to do that there needs to be a standard or some guideline to follow (and that that guideline shouldn't be a wizard)

[Kaelik]

Taking away the -20 to grapples for doing something else doesn't help fighters, it helps monsters.

It means a CR 20 Dragon with a +60 grapple mod can lower do that ay +60 (which the fighter can't beat) instead of +40 (which he maybe could) to completely occupy the fighter while still flying around and breathing fire and full attacking shit.

Of course, it's a moot point since FoM is mandatory for PCs and Druids can grapple eight characters at +72 as a free action with a second level spell, but whatever.

[Kaelik]

Taking away the -20 to grapples for doing something else doesn't help fighters, it helps monsters.

It means a CR 20 Dragon with a +60 grapple mod can lower do that ay +60 (which the fighter can't beat) instead of +40 (which he maybe could) to completely occupy the fighter while still flying around and breathing fire and full attacking shit.

Of course, it's a moot point since FoM is mandatory for PCs and Druids can grapple eight characters at +72 as a free action with a second level spell, but whatever.

[MartinHarper]

Well what we really need to do is set up something that magic can't do.

Brainstorming in the spirit of this thread:

Bridges
There's a naked elf on the other side of the iron bridge, and the wizard...

- Can't cross over running water
- Is weakened by the presence of iron
- Can't touch man-made structures

Aladdin's Cave
There's a cave full of wonderful goodies, and the wizard...

- Can't enter a home uninvited
- Cannot use fire magic without the power of the sun
- Is forbidden from owning anything except his robe and his begging bowl

[Murtak]

Well what we really need to do is set up something that magic can't do.

I think not having a single class e able to do everything is fine. If a party of wizard, cleric, druid and beguiler have a solution for everything that is fine with me. It just stinks when a single caster always has the solution.

This means basically that the concept of the wizard needs to be reinvisioned, and can't be the "do everything mage" that he is now.

Agreed.

[Murtak]

Bridges
There's a naked elf on the other side of the iron bridge, and the wizard...

- Can't cross over running water
- Is weakened by the presence of iron
- Can't touch man-made structures

Aladdin's Cave
There's a cave full of wonderful goodies, and the wizard...

- Can't enter a home uninvited
- Cannot use fire magic without the power of the sun
- Is forbidden from owning anything except his robe and his begging bowl

I don't like these. Limitations like this don't actually make the caster less capable, they just sprinkle random "fuck you" signs around the world. I think reigning in magic according to general guidelines is the way to go. For example:

Nature magic (druidic magic) can:
- Scout / Reveal
- Hide
- Protect living beings
- Heal / Cure

Anything that does not fit into the above list should be removed from the druid spell list. Note that it is important to have lists of mechanics, not flavor text.

[MGuy]

Again I'm fine with wizards not being able to do anything but this thread is about brainstorming ideas for the fighter to make fighters better. lowering wizard's power or gimping them doesn't make fighters better.