PrC Requirements

[Username17]

RC, what the hell are you talking about? I've already been over this several times. Your "RACE" is everything that appears in your title, and it's everything that appears in your type, and it's everything that appears in your subtype. It is all of these things. It can be all of these things, and it is.

If it wasn't like that, you'd have to exclude Tallfellows from Halfling Outrider or you'd have to exclude Drow from Arachne - both of which are retarded. You keep putting up some sort of either-or choice between the title and the subtype. You are ignoring that actual intention which is clearly that you get both.

So your Favored Enemy against Giants works against Giant Crabs (Vermin), it works against Ogres (Giant), and it works against Half Celestial Firbolgs (Outsider [Good, Augmented Giant). A prestige class that requires you to be a Giant could be taken by any of those creatures.

As to what part of polymorph makes a "beholder", it's the first sentence:

you change the subject into another form of living creature.

So you have been changed into a beholder. If a rule asks if you are a beholder, the answer is currently "yes".

---

The 3e rules had some really complicated rules about how when you were polymorphed into a dwarf you weren't really a dwarf, but those rules were scrapped because 1> they were a bunch of legacy crap that made no sense and required people to make emotional arguments, and 2> doing it the other way makes Ed Stark's characters more powerful.

In 3.5, it is absolutely unambiguous that a Drow is both a Drow and an Elf. It is unambiguous that polymorphing into a Drow makes you be both a Drow and an Elf.

Those rules are fvcking fantastic, and I can't understand why anyone would want to attack them. They are easy to understand, and allow for absolutely no argument that makes any sense at all. And no, I'm not counting Random jumping up and down demanding that only exclusive "or" exists as an argument that makes any sense.

---

That being said, racial prestige classes are handled extremely poorly. Even if they started as a good idea, which they did not, the implementation is extremely bad. I went to the trouble of making some racial prestige classes a long time ago for 3e. I think they are probably around on some other board somewhere to this day. It's a lot of work, and the only reason to do it is to get monsters to be playable at higher CRs. If you're just looking for monsters, you can just throw in a Hill Giant and call it a mighty Ogre Champion or whatever.

That means that there is no reason to ever have a Dwarf racial class, because they are already playable with normal classes at any level. It also means that there is no reason to have these classes fit into the normal open multiclassing system at all - they should be the minimum length to get monsters playable out to the end of the campaign or transitioned smoothly into normally available classes and no longer.

The Beholder Mage and the Aboleth Savant don't do those things. They are just a weird ass pile of abilities which are back loaded in the extreme and completely unsuitable for the monsters that supposedly specialize in them. The only reason those classes exist is because Richard Baker likes to read himself talk.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

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So your Favored Enemy against Giants works against Giant Crabs (Vermin), it works against Ogres (Giant), and it works against Half Celestial Firbolgs (Outsider [Good, Augmented Giant). A prestige class that requires you to be a Giant could be taken by any of those creatures.

This is just flat out wrong. Favored enemy works solely by creature type and that's it. Favored enemy giant works against anything that is of the giant creature type. Favored enemy Evil outsider works against any outsider of the evil subtype and so on. Favored enemy is straight creature type. You dont' just look for words and try to match them in a half assed fashion. A giant crab is still considered a vermin, and you need favored enemy vermin to hurt it. What you're saying may have been what you did in 2nd edition, but in 3rd edition favored enemy just doesn't work that way. Favored enemy is very concrete and easily defined.

You check creature type, if it matches you get the bonus, if not then it doesn't. You don't get favored enemy: giant bonuses against giant crabs, just beacuse they have the word "giant" in the front of their race name. If their creature type isn't giant you just don't get that bonus.

As to what part of polymorph makes a "beholder", it's the first sentence:

you change the subject into another form of living creature.

So you have been changed into a beholder. If a rule asks if you are a beholder, the answer is currently "yes".

This doesn't say that you acquire the actual race of what you become. It says you change your form, which is well, yeah... we already knew that. The rest of the spell description goes on to say what form changing actually does mechanically. And just because you've got the form of a beholder doesn't mean you are.

Heck a mimic can change its form to anything it wants, but just because it looks like a stone golem doesn't mean it picks up magic immunity and is considered a construct, nor does it mean that it's no longer a mimic. It's still a mimic, just a mimic in the form of a stone golem.

Similarly, an elf polyed into a beholder is still an elf, just in the form of a beholder. It still has elven traits. It still has favored class wizard for instance, a sun elf keeps its intelligence mod, and so on. So claiming this is any kind of full blown race change is just not true, and you know it.

I mean hell you can't even automatically disguise yourself as a beholder. What does that tell you? Poly just gives you a bonus to disguise checks. It therefore is not a complete transformation. Hell, it doesn't even give you all the abilities of that race. When you polymorph or even shapechange into a human you don't get a bonus feat or more skill points. Sure you look like a human and get a +10 bonus to pass as human, but mechanically you are not fully human.

In 3.5, it is absolutely unambiguous that a Drow is both a Drow and an Elf. It is unambiguous that polymorphing into a Drow makes you be both a Drow and an Elf.

Unambigous, how so? Find me anything that says polymorph lets you qualify for racial prereqs. Find anything that says that it changes your race. You keep changing your story more than an average defendant on the People's Court. First, it's because of subtype, now it's because polymorph changes your form. You also bring up an interpretation of favored enemy which is just flat out wrong, so wrong that I'm surprised someone as rules savvy as you are could have brought it up. Then you're saying I have no case? Clever sophistry, but you're the one with no evidence to support your side beyond "It's the way I and a lot of others have been running it up till now and I like the rule."

Find anything in the core rules that says you can qualify for racial PrC prereqs with a polymorphed race. If it is so unambiguous there should be some line that clearly states that. Polymorph tells you exactly what traits you get and what you don't. It says nothing about race change or being treated as a member of the race that you change into. Therefore you aren't. You're still treated as your old race for race based effects unless it says otherwise. So find a place where it says otherwise and you prove your case. If you can't then you lose. It's really that simple.

The burden of proof is on you.

[PhoneLobster]

This doesn't say that you acquire the actual race of what you become. It says you change your form, which is well, yeah... we already knew that. The rest of the spell description goes on to say what form changing actually does mechanically. And just because you've got the form of a beholder doesn't mean you are.

A few points.

Its clear as daylight that form means you get the title.

If you are arguing that race is a special descriptor that is not changed unless explicitly referred to. And that monster title is not only separate but ALSO a special box unchanged unless specifically targeted then I ask you this...

What the hell is "form"?

Do you seriously intend to claim there are distinct defined differences between "form = dwarf", "monster title = dwarf" and "race = dwarf", "type = dwarf" and "sub type = dwarf"?

MM critters don't even have a Race entry, so do MM based elves and dwarfs even qualify as having a race under your system?

I mean REALLY?

But OK lets just say monster title/race are one (or two) descriptors that simply DO NOT change unless explicitly altered (not that that doesn't mean "Form = Beholder" might not STILL qualify you to answer "yes" to the generic question "are you a beholder")

Then I notice a very interesting upshoot.

There are no such things as ghosts, vampires, half dragons, half fiends, half celestials etc...

See there are a lot of critters running around with a set of random template abilities, and changed types and sub types like undead, dragon, outsider etc... but see they don't actually ever change the monsters title/race so well, your ghost harpy is actually, well, still just a harpy. Indeed it doesn't even get "form = ghost", let alone "Race = Ghost", "type= Ghost" or "Sub type = Ghost". Poor sucker.

So under your system if any prestige class ever checks the condition "are you a ghost" the answer apparently is always and forever "no".

Have you read the racial requirement of the Dragon Disciple recently?

Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half dragon)

Well hot dog, guess what. A) what the heck is a "nondragon" I ain't never heard of a race called that. B) Dragon is a Type not a Race, therefore one continues to be cool. C) It is impossible to change your monster title to Half Dragon, so your cool on that condition, and at the same time thats monster title and not race so you would still be cool ANYWAY...

Or in other words under your system the Half Dragon template does not prevent you from being a Dragon Disciple.

While clearly by the wording it is intended to exclude you twice (once for being type= dragon and once for having your title implicitly changed to merely contain the words half dragon)

Those are some sweet moves your arguments got going there.

[RandomCasualty]

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What the hell is "form"?

Do you seriously intend to claim there are distinct defined differences between "form = dwarf", "monster title = dwarf" and "race = dwarf", "type = dwarf" and "sub type = dwarf"?

Well, I don't consider "monster title" to be a separate catagory, but aside from that, yes, absolutely. All those are separate and distinct things.

Form is what you look like. A mimic can be in the form of a chest, or the form of a bed or the form of a big stone statue that looks likea stone golem, or whatever. Mimics can turn into all sorts of forms, and yet they've still a creature type of aberation, a subtype of (shapechanger) and a race of mimic.

It would be possilbe to write a polymorph spell that just changes your form, but doesn't give you anything else. It doesn't have to change your creature type or your race. It doesn't have to replace your physical stats, it can seriously just change your form. The same way a mimic can turn into a bunch of stuff.

Form is generally a meaningless title for the most part, and used primarily for descriptions. It really doesn't do anything to have the form of something by default, except possibly confuse adventurers. Even still you only get a bonus to disguise checks if it says you do.

MM critters don't even have a Race entry, so do MM based elves and dwarfs even qualify as having a race under your system?

The creature's name is its race, because the entire book is talking about races. It doesn't specifically title it as such, but that can easily be assumed, since creatures are getting racial hit dice and racial bonuses and such. So the heading 'beholder' means this is the stuff that the race 'beholder' gets.

Then I notice a very interesting upshoot.

There are no such things as ghosts, vampires, half dragons, half fiends, half celestials etc...

Templates arguably also change your race, since you write them in the race section. One can see a template as being a sort of sub-race, much like a drow elf. Only it's a universal subrace that can be applied to many different races. So if you're a beholder and pick up the half-dragon template, then you're now a half-dragon beholder as a race. Nothing in the rules actually says this, but whenever you're talking about stat blocks, templates are always put next to the base race. And it looks like:

half-dragon human fighter 5.
elven lich wizard 12.
Vampire Troll cleric 5/fighter 3.

It is somewhat ambiguous if template names are added to race. It damn well seems like designer intent that they do, though.

See there are a lot of critters running around with a set of random template abilities, and changed types and sub types like undead, dragon, outsider etc... but see they don't actually ever change the monsters title/race so well, your ghost harpy is actually, well, still just a harpy. Indeed it doesn't even get "form = ghost", let alone "Race = Ghost", "type= Ghost" or "Sub type = Ghost". Poor sucker.

Form changes are pretty much just flavor. If it gives a descripton for the creature, that pretty much changes your form by default. Because form is just about "what do you look like" and that's pretty much it. YOur type does change to undead. There is no ghost subtype at all. And as far as your race changing, the rules aren't 100% specific on if you become a "ghost harpy" race, but you very well might or might not. Based on a preponderance of the evidence, one would have to rule that you do pick up the "ghost harpy" race, though it is not clear beyond all reasonable doubt.

Have you read the racial requirement of the Dragon Disciple recently?

Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half dragon)

Well hot dog, guess what. A) what the heck is a "nondragon" I ain't never heard of a race called that.

Perhaps you've heard of the concept of negations.

B) Dragon is a Type not a Race, therefore one continues to be cool.
C) It is impossible to change your monster title to Half Dragon, so your cool on that condition, and at the same time thats monster title and not race so you would still be cool ANYWAY...

Pretty much this is evidence that templates do indeed change race, or at least the designers intended it that way. Also, about the dragon "race", this means that you can have a wyvern dragon deciple, but not a red dragon dragon desciple. While wyverns may have the dragon type, their race is not a kind of dragon. So you could have the wyvern aspiring to be one of the big boys, which is perfectly ok.

[PhoneLobster]

So you break down your entire argument to a few fundamental assumptions.

1) Even though nothing anywhere ever states as much Race = Monster Title. But despite at least as much implied material for Race = other stuff as well, it isn't.

2) There is a quality called "Form". You can change it without changing anything else.

In your last post you used the mimic as part of your case for the existence of the "Form" quality.

Form is what you look like. A mimic can be in the form of a chest, or the form of a bed or the form of a big stone statue that looks likea stone golem, or whatever. Mimics can turn into all sorts of forms

Except a mimic can't turn into all sorts of forms. The mimics shape changing ability does not operate off the poly morph spells and does not include the magic key word "Form" anywhere in its description.

Mimic Shape (Ex)

A mimic can assume the general shape of any object that fills roughly 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet), such as a massive chest, a stout bed, or a wide door frame. The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. A mimic’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present. Anyone who examines the mimic can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the mimic’s Disguise check. Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.
Skills

The only "Form" changing ability the Mimic gets is its ability to revert to its natural form as a standard action as granted by polymorph due to its subtype (which of course actually doesn't work because its subtype changes when polymorphed... ugh...)

In search of material to bolster your side of the argument lets dig up a major MM entry that uses the word "Form" a lot. Lets look at Lycanthropes.

Seriously Lycanthropes are "Form"alicious there are probably more uses of the word "Form" in the lycanthrope entry than in the rest of D&D combined.

So I'll stick to some Highlights.

Like the bit where the word Form repeatedly appears within the Monster Name entry, strongly suggesting that Form (if it is anything) is synonomous with, or at least strongly tied to Monster Name.

Werebear, Human Form... Werebear, Bear Form... Werebear, Hybrid Form

Or the bit where it talks about Form as if it is synonomous or at least strongly tied with Type and Sub Type...

A lycanthrope in its humanoid (or giant) form... causing it to change to its animal form

Or the bit where its Alternate Form ability description refers directly to the titles of its different monster forms. And indeed doesn't state anything else at all.

A wereboar can assume the form of a boar or a boar-humanoid hybrid.

Of course if you dig there is a bit more to the alternate form ability, but only for "create your own" lycanthropes who get the added fun of being referred directly to the Polymorph spell description, somewhat suggesting that the various stat blocks for alternate forms complete with changed Name entries are what a polymorphed creatures stat block should look like, you know, name changing wise

Theres even more in the Alternate Form description in the back of the book. Where it outlines further details of alternate form but there doesn't seem to be anything much of note there other than some exceptions such as what appears to be an explanation as to why the heck the lycanthropes various forms don't have their types and sub types changed.

Still you had other stuff going didn't you? Like the way race and monster name was synonomous?

The creature's name is its race, because the entire book is talking about races. It doesn't specifically title it as such, but that can easily be assumed, since creatures are getting racial hit dice and racial bonuses and such.

The entire book is about monsters, not races. But lets look at exactly what the book has to say about the name entry in the stat blocks, on the off chance we can see why you so "easily assume" that race==name.

Name

This is the name by which the creature is generally known. The descriptive text may provide other names.

NOTHING there to support the easy assumption in the slightest. And to boot it just happens to make the name entry vague as hell by referring you also to the descriptive text. Nice.

But well, you did also say like "Racial Hit Die". And sure enough the words are used in the back of the book here...

Racial Hit Dice: The Hit Dice a monster has by virtue of what type of creature it is.

And oddly its referrence to type rather than race is utterly correct. See the nature of its advancement of its bonuses due to "Racial Hit Dice" gets defined by its creature TYPE. Hows that for synonomous/close relations between race and Type again?

So the heading 'beholder' means this is the stuff that the race 'beholder' gets.

So tell me is the stuff under the entry "Aboleth Mage" what a creature with that odd race name gets? And if that line is its race name... why does it include ", 10th-Level Wizard".

Thats like what? The very SECOND stat block in the book?

But seriously all this messing about is pointless because it all started when you woefully miss read this so far regularly quoted line from polymorph...

you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

Read carefully now. The English language is a tricky thing, full of crazy naunces.

Your argument hinges on polymorph changing "only" your form. For that to happen polymorph would need to word that line "you change the willing subject's form into the form of another living creature".

Its amazing the difference. In the edited example you are indeed changing form. In the original however "form" is used merely to qualify the type of living creature you outright change into.

And thats the way the D&D core rules seem to use the word "form" its not one of their grand special key words, its a word that they throw arround at random in the vicinity of polymorph, change shape, alternate form, monster name, and monster type as if it were of little more importance than "the".


Of course then you finish up by pretending that the entry rather obviously referring to the TYPE "dragon" in the Race requirement of dragon disciple instead only refers to creatures that appear under the entry named "Dragon" in the MM. Apparently with the justification that it was a deliberate ploy to allow the excellent playing of Wyvern dragon disciples.

So then you remain fine with Dragon Turtle, Pseudo Dragon, and Faerie Dragon dragon disciples? Not Reconsidering?

See that Faerie Dragon, he lives in the Draconomicon. If the Race requirement in Dragon Disciple couldn't possibly be referring to Type: Dragon then I ask you in the prestige classes for dragons in that same book what is the difference between...

Race: Any dragon

and

Race: Any true dragon

?

[Kirin_Corrigan]

But seriously all this messing about is pointless

Well, at least you admit it. That's a start.

Seriously, if I had to qualify your role in this debate it'd be «muddling waters sidekick», 'cos you did nothing but twisting and bending inanely and purposefully not only what others say, but also what the rulebooks themselves say.

There's no reason to do that other than trying to mess this debate up into oblivion.

[Username17]

OK, let's get this real short and sweet.

Random Casualty, please explain exactly who can qualify for the following classes:

Race: Outsider with the evil subtype.

Race: Fey, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or outsider with the aquatic subtype.

Race: Dwarf.

Race: Gold dwarf.

Race: Elf, half-elf.

Race: Sun elf, moon elf, or wood elf.

Once you can find a monster whose entry name is "outsider with the evil subtype", then I will take you seriously that race might be intended to exclude type and subtype. Until then, I'm sticking to my guns.

-Username17

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Just a friendly reminder to keep it civil.
[/TGFBS]

Game on,
fbmf

[RandomCasualty]

1123742249[/unixtime]]
1) Even though nothing anywhere ever states as much Race = Monster Title. But despite at least as much implied material for Race = other stuff as well, it isn't.

This is directly implied and rather easily. Just like nothing in the PHB says you put "human" for your race when you pick human as your race, you can pretty much imply that you do. Because it's plainly obvious. If you're a beholder, you use the beholder stats and your race is beholder.

Except a mimic can't turn into all sorts of forms. The mimics shape changing ability does not operate off the poly morph spells and does not include the magic key word "Form" anywhere in its description.

This is true, but largely irrelevant, because form isn't a D&D keyword anyway. As I said before, it's all flavor text. It's meaningless. Nowhere in the game does anything care about what form you have. You do get some important characteristics as a substat of form, like size for instance, but form itself is pretty much a non-stat.

Like the bit where the word Form repeatedly appears within the Monster Name entry, strongly suggesting that Form (if it is anything) is synonomous with, or at least strongly tied to Monster Name.

Well in all cases a werebear is still a werebear, it doesn't become a new race because it changes form. This only further supports my argument, it doesn't refute it. A werebear who assumes the form of a bear, is actually still a werebear, not a true bear.

The entire book is about monsters, not races. But lets look at exactly what the book has to say about the name entry in the stat blocks, on the off chance we can see why you so "easily assume" that race==name.

A "monster" in the generic is a race. Elf is a monster, and it's also a race. Storm giant is a monster and it's also a race. The entire monster manual deals entirely with races.

Your argument hinges on polymorph changing "only" your form. For that to happen polymorph would need to word that line "you change the willing subject's form into the form of another living creature".

No, polymorph doesn't change only your form. It changes a lot of other things, each of which is noted in the spell description. You will however note that race is not noted.

So then you remain fine with Dragon Turtle, Pseudo Dragon, and Faerie Dragon dragon disciples? Not Reconsidering?

Strictly speaking none of these are dragon subraces, and could become Dragon disciples. I'm pretty sure most of those can't even have class levels though, so it's probably a moot point. You could also consider the "dragon" part of their name to make them a dragon, except for the pseudo dragon, since pseudo means "fake".

Race: Any dragon

and

Race: Any true dragon

There are a lot of books that try to describe a group of races instead of a true race. Clearly True dragon refers to real races, since that's what they're called in the MM. There is no doubt about this, because there is no creature type or subtype called True Dragon.

Any dragon is probably referring to creature type and shouldnt' have been put into race. This is quite simply a designer error, who is making the same error you and Frank are making about the correlation between race and creature type. What he means is "Any race that meets the following criteria: {Creature type = Dragon.}"

Statements like Any outsider with the evil subtype and so on are describing broad groups of races. It's probably not the most straightforward way to do so. But we all know the designers aren't perfect, and considering these are splat books. Remember Eagle Claw attack, the feat from Sword and Fist that did absolutely nothing? It's clear that some designers just don't know the rules as well as they should.

And the fact still remains that Races like "True Dragon" and "Beholder" just don't exist under your creature type system. There is no creature type called true dragon, and there is no creature type called beholder. And all the excuses you want to make aren't going to wish that away.

Clearly the rules set was intended to be able to describe these races when need be, and my system allows it, yours doesn't.

[PhoneLobster]

The only thing your system is allowing is there being no such thing as ghosts, Dragon Turtle Dragon Disciples roaming the earth, everyone having to learn a bunch of counter intuitive rules that aren't written, or even implied by anything written, anywhere, and the rest of us having to completely misread the english language to place the word Form as the subject of a sentence when it clearly is not.

I think Franks list of Race requirements is a damn good example (and no copping out claiming its splat book material, its accross the length and breadth of the rules set, even in the core).

But personally I think it boils down most importantly to your continued misreading of that same damn line in polymorph.

you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

To which you misleadingly attempt to address...

No, polymorph doesn't change only your form. It changes a lot of other things, each of which is noted in the spell description. You will however note that race is not noted.

Seriously read the line again. You change a subject, into a creature. The "another form" bit is not what they change into it merely qualifies the kind of creature they can select to change into (ie, another one). That sentence explicitly states, clear as day the subject becomes the creature, no implications or two ways or misreadings possible, bam thats it.

Your argument doesn't pass hurdle one, it just busts right through it, you hit hurdle two and claim monster name == race just because you say so then hit three and declare every precedent of type in Race requirements to be an amusing coincidence, and if all thats not enough as the dead horse is whipped to the ground you need to add that Monster Name/Race can never change unless explicitly referrenced, or unless you say so to enable Ghosts to exist. Seriously. The argument is out of the steeple chase.

[Username17]

OK RC, I honestly can't tell if you are being pointlessly obstructionist or not. You continue to ascribe things to me that are not my position, and when I keep calling you on your straw men, you assault me for changing my position.

My position has always been that "race" is everything that is in the title, and everything that is in the type/subtype line. I submit as evidence that:

1> There exists at least one prestige class which demands a "race" that is in turn a term found only in the titles of creatures in monster entries.

2> There exists at least one prestige class which demands a "race" that in turn is a term found only in the types and/or subtypes of creatures in monster entries.

3> There exists at least one prestige class which demands a "race" that in turn is a term found in both titles and type/subtype lines of monster entries.

And what's your answer to that? Your answer is apparently:

Statements like Any outsider with the evil subtype and so on are describing broad groups of races.

What?

Seriously, why don't you just concede the argument instead, because that didn't make a lick of sense. If the rules can demand "Race: XXX" and have people be able to look at their type/subype line even once to find "XXX" and use that to qualify for any PrC anywhere, then the answer to the question "can the things in your type/subtype line qualify you for prestige classes" is yes.

I don't even care if you feel the need to put an extra layer of hooey into things by announcing that "Outsider with the evil subtype" refers to a group of races, any one of which that happen to be of type outsider and subtype evil qualify for. Because even if you mke that assumption, you still have to admit that getting yourself the subtype Human makes you part of the grander list of races referenced when it says "Race: Human" - which means that by definition you can qualify as an Illumian or a polymorphed Awakened Dire Rat.

There exists at least one class that must refer to the type of a creature in its "race" requirements. Therefore, my inclusive definition is completely unassailable by anything. There is literally nothing you can say that will make me change my position on this unless you can somehow use logic alone to convince me that the Scaled Horror doesn't exist. And that's going to be really difficult, because I'm reading it right now.

-Username17