The Official "4e Critique and Rebuttal" Thread

[Kaelik]

"Exception based design for it's own sake" or "RNG-powers that exceed the RNG range" works just as well, if not better, or a hundred other variations that don't make you seem less intelligent, and don't outright insult those you're trying to persuade.

No they don't work better. It doesn't matter how polite we are to idiots like you, you never change your mind, why would we think being polite would convince more people?

On the other hand, Lich loved basically joined us here to tell us he was totally wrong. So Vinegar is at 1, Honey is at 0.

Go cry a river. I know you don't actually care about anything but feelings and whining about subjectivity, but RNG sodomization means the same damn thing as Powers break the RNG. It's just shorter and makes clear the degree.

[Morzas]

There's a huge difference between wizard HP and fighter HP. In my current party, the Wizard has 74 hp to the Fighter's 128, and the fighter's healing surges are further aided by Dwarven Durability, adding an additional +5 to them. So not only is there a 54 hp difference in total HP, but the wizard has a healing surge value of 18 as compared to the dwarven fighter's 37 - which is to say that the dwarf heals more than twice as much per healing surge spent on healing him than the wizard, which means that, until you're out of healing surge granters, you want the dwarf to take damage because it can be healed up for much less of the party's in-combat healing surge granters. Sure, once the dwarf is on his last legs, maybe its good for the wizard to get in there... but many ranged characters are quite bad in melee (most don't have Thunderwave), which means that getting into melee is still usually a bad idea.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that the wizard probably negates a few hits by using his ray of frost in an all ranged party, since the monsters don't reach him. Which is going to make the HP difference matter a whole lot less.

Or if they're optimized, they blast out a single Sleep then everyone gets to rush in and Coup de Grace every round.

[MartinHarper]

KISS is a great method, insulting people and cussing like a child is not.

Keep it Simple, Stupid.
Sounds like an insult to me.

[tzor]

KISS is a great method, insulting people and cussing like a child is not.

Keep it Simple, Stupid.
Sounds like an insult to me.

It also can mean "Keep it Short & Simple" but unfortunately a lot of stupid people forget the short part.

[violence in the media]

KISS is a great method, insulting people and cussing like a child is not.

Keep it Simple, Stupid.
Sounds like an insult to me.

It also can mean "Keep it Short & Simple"

Only if you're one of those anti-profanity crybabies.


Fuckers.

[Previn]

"Exception based design for it's own sake" or "RNG-powers that exceed the RNG range" works just as well, if not better, or a hundred other variations that don't make you seem less intelligent, and don't outright insult those you're trying to persuade.

No they don't work better. It doesn't matter how polite we are to idiots like you, you never change your mind, why would we think being polite would convince more people?

Why do you think it won't? Why do you think that being mean and spiteful to people is going to sway them to your side? I'm relatively positive it's been shown that you get better results through being polite.

On the other hand, Lich loved basically joined us here to tell us he was totally wrong. So Vinegar is at 1, Honey is at 0.

Go cry a river. I know you don't actually care about anything but feelings and whining about subjectivity, but RNG sodomization means the same damn thing as Powers break the RNG. It's just shorter and makes clear the degree.

'Nonworking RNG' is shorter than 'RNG sodomization.' I'm also very confused as to why you seem to want to do nothing but insult anyone who doesn't agree with you and drive them away. I think there' a lot of 'agree with use 100% or your wrong and get out' attitude here. I also think it' a shame because I see a lot of good ideas here the aren't going to go anywhere because of how hostile things are, especially when there is no point to it as in your post.

Edit: Fixing tags.

[NineInchNall]

That's just Kaelik's way. *shrug* There are a few people on this board who have linguistic tics. Roy goes overboard with internet memes; Kaelik curses and insults.

[Lago PARANOIA]

And from now on, I'm going to post pictures of diseased third world children with every post and it'll be okay because it's my 'tic'!

[Fuchs]

"Powers break the range" sounds better (and clearer) than "RNG Sodomization".

The problem with insults is not just the hostility, it's also that it's hard to take someone seriously if he sounds like a teenager with a hard on for cussing like "the grown ups". Even for people from a country where profanity is nothing unusual, and doesn't get censored on tv or anywhere else, an abundance of swearing just makes you look bad. Overused it's not breaking a taboo, it's not opposing censorship, or sticking it to the man, it's not even a style statement, it's simply verbal farting.

[Korwin]

I find the cussing on this board refreshing. (even if I [normally] dont do it)
But if someone thinks something is shit he should say it.

Please stop this passive agressive non-cussing campaign.
That I do find annoying.

[Fuchs]

There's a difference between stating something is shit, and using shit, fuck, and other swear words in every sentence.

And sorry if you mistake this for passive-agressive, that was not the intent. The intent was to clearly attack such behaviour. Nothing passive about it.

[Antumbra]

And from now on, I'm going to post pictures of diseased third world children with every post and it'll be okay because it's my 'tic'!

Hell - if you can work that as a linguistic tic, you'd win a medal. Maybe.
Certainly you'd be asked to do charity work.

Carrying around a bunch of pictures doesn't count though.

[Korwin]

There's a difference between stating something is shit, and using shit, fuck, and other swear words in every sentence.

Ah you count the shits?
At what count mark its too often?

[edit]

And sorry if you mistake this for passive-agressive, that was not the intent. The intent was to clearly attack such behaviour. Nothing passive about it.

See you didnt use swear words, so my impression of you was as a passive-aggressive PC bullshit type.

[Fuchs]

There's a difference between stating something is shit, and using shit, fuck, and other swear words in every sentence.

Ah you count the shits?
At what count mark its too often?

When you're asking yourself if the author is suffering from Tourette sydnrome.

[Korwin]

Fully subjective also...

[Kaelik]

Why do you think it won't? Why do you think that being mean and spiteful to people is going to sway them to your side? I'm relatively positive it's been shown that you get better results through being polite.

And you are absolutely wrong. Being polite to TD isn't going to magicify him into a sane person who doesn't suck WotC cock. Showing how our utter contempt might, if it weren't for the part where he runs back to his fanbois.

Being polite to dumb fucks doesn't make them less dumb fucks. Insulting and cussing doesn't necessarily convince more people, but since there are like maybe 3 smart people in the entire universe who can't see past cuss words, and there are 0 dumb fucks who can, if you coach your argument in insults an ass rapes, you can quickly separate the people smart enough to evaluate arguments based on merit from those people who are just going to waste your time because they are always concerned with PC police bullshitting and the reputation of the people talking.

'Nonworking RNG' is shorter than 'RNG sodomization.' I'm also very confused as to why you seem to want to do nothing but insult anyone who doesn't agree with you and drive them away. I think there' a lot of 'agree with use 100% or your wrong and get out' attitude here. I also think it' a shame because I see a lot of good ideas here the aren't going to go anywhere because of how hostile things are, especially when there is no point to it as in your post.

Except there is nothing of the kind here. I disagree with Phone Lobster, Frank, ubernoob, Komeni, and Lago.

I also manage to not run away crying butthurt when they evilly use mean words to show me I'm wrong. Just like none of them is going to argue about why I use the words 'fucking retarded' to describe their idea, they will just address the part where I describe why it is fucking retarded.

You on the other hand, once spent an entire post bitching about how I called you a liar for lying, and never fucking addressed the lie in question once.

[Leress]

When you're asking yourself if the author is suffering from Tourette sydnrome.

Then someone doesn't know what Tourette Syndrome is.

[ubernoob]

Except there is nothing of the kind here. I disagree with Phone Lobster, Frank, ubernoob, Komeni, and Lago.

I also manage to not run away crying butthurt when they evilly use mean words to show me I'm wrong. Just like none of them is going to argue about why I use the words 'fucking retarded' to describe their idea, they will just address the part where I describe why it is fucking retarded.

You on the other hand, once spent an entire post bitching about how I called you a liar for lying, and never fucking addressed the lie in question once.

Don't I usually manage to leave more implied "fucks" in my posts than you though? I mean, at BG someone actually accused me of cursing every other sentence on a five paragraph post where the only curse word was "ass" (three times total).

[Previn]

Being polite to dumb fucks doesn't make them less dumb fucks. Insulting and cussing doesn't necessarily convince more people, but since there are like maybe 3 smart people in the entire universe who can't see past cuss words, and there are 0 dumb fucks who can, if you coach your argument in insults an ass rapes, you can quickly separate the people smart enough to evaluate arguments based on merit from those people who are just going to waste your time because they are always concerned with PC police bullshitting and the reputation of the people talking.

The problem is when you're posting to something like a wiki, especially if you're trying to change people's minds or inform those who are not dumb fucks really doesn't do anything but hurt your position.

Seeing a post going "That shit is horrible and RNG is cockfucked" is going to convince or enlighten a lot fewer people than on saying "I dislike the methods that make RNG is non-functional"

Apparently offering constructive criticism is some sort passive aggressive anti-cussing campaign because I'm horrible insulted. Or, I could be pointing something out because I'm trying to help. I really can't understand the pointless hatred and insults for just offering a suggestion.

But whatever.

[Username17]

I think you're missing the audience of 1d4chan. Seriously, take a look at the source material:

Some feel that the decrease in rules, while welcomed, didn't go far enough. Some people wanted to open up the DMG and see "BULLSHIT IT." Many people want to pay hundreds of dollars for books with no content. Afterall, that's what "streamlined" is, right?

Look at that. First of all, it was obviously written by a 4e supporter as a straw man argument representation against people lambasting the formalization of skill challenges. Secondly, it has swear wordz in all capz. Did you really expect something written under the criticisms of 4e section there to be simultaneously legitimate and respectful? No offense, but seriously what the fuck is wrong with you?

That's just what that forum is like. People making an honest or respectful argument would just be puzzling. It's 1d4chan. All the swearing of this place and substantially less content per post.

-Username17

[God_of_Awesome]

Are you guys still arguing about 4e in here?

Man, I don't play 4e because I don't like it, but even I know that it's a good system.

[Kaelik]

The problem is when you're posting to something like a wiki, especially if you're trying to change people's minds or inform those who are not dumb fucks really doesn't do anything but hurt your position.

Seeing a post going "That shit is horrible and RNG is cockfucked" is going to convince or enlighten a lot fewer people than on saying "I dislike the methods that make RNG is non-functional"

No you dumbfuck.

Denying something doesn't magically make it untrue.

That is my whole fucking point. Saying "THat shit is horrible and the RNG is cockfucked." Convinces exactly the same number of people as saying "I dislike the methods that make th RNG non-functional."

Those two statements are logically equivalent. Anyone who is convinced by logic is going to react the same to both of them.

It does not hurt your position at all. It helps it.

If I am going to go somewhere to talk about how 4e breaks the RNG, because for example, someone said "4es RNG is perfect."

I have two choices.

1) You fucking retard, 4e's RNG is repeatedly sodomized by various abilities, not the least of which is Every Warlord power worth taking.

2) You might maybe be a little bit wrong, because if you would please take a look at various powers you might see that a great many of them make the RNG non functional.

Given those two statements, someone can do 4 things:

a) Look up various powers themselves and see the RNG sodomization.
b) Ask me to do A for them.
c) disagree with me based on reality and evidence.
d) disagree with me based on the fact that I am mean.

If I use 2, then I can't tell the difference between people who would do d and people who would do c. Additionally, people who would normally do d might also do b.

I don't want to waste my time talking to people who think meanness has any reflection on truth. I'm not going to waste my time explaining to dumbfucks that the RNG breaks, because Titanium Dragon will just deny it, call it a fluke that has nothing to do with the game, or say that it's not a problem but give no explanation of why something he just said 4e did better than 3e is not a problem that 4e does worse.

These people are not worth my damn time. Weeding out idiots who will never change their mind based on evidence is a useful function. Because it's how I get to focus on the people who actually base decisions on evidence. IE people who don't complain because I'm mean.

[Kaelik]

Are you guys still arguing about 4e in here?

Man, I don't play 4e because I don't like it, but even I know that it's a good system.

Well congratulations Sergeant Schultz. But no one gives a damn about your "It's totally a good system!" with no evidence or explanation of any kind to back that up.

[NineInchNall]

"I mean, even I can tell God exists as more than a concept!"

Lame.

[God_of_Awesome]

Are you guys still arguing about 4e in here?

Man, I don't play 4e because I don't like it, but even I know that it's a good system.

Well congratulations Sergeant Schultz. But no one gives a damn about your "It's totally a good system!" with no evidence or explanation of any kind to back that up.

Streamline combat, easily set-up encounters, constant ability progression at every level, balanced classes. It's everything 3.5 failed to be. On the other hand, it fails to be everything 3.5 was, with too much concentration on combat, very samey classes, very little of the original DnD spirit, requires figurines a bit too much.