Dark Sun returns

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:35 pm

Nah, that's probably the number of people that downloaded the book from that one site/wherever that Scribid guy hosted it.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:41 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:That's actually kind of weird if the numbers of pirates for WotC books is in the thousands. I'd expect it to be higher than that, especially if hundreds of thousands of people actually sit down and buy the books.

Well, despite net boosterism to the contrary, there really isn't a market for e-books. People don't actually want to pay real money for a book that they can't physically own, loan freely to friends, and flip pages back and forth on. This is not an uncommon position.

The disparity between paper and digital media as far as sales go is really quite stark. Runner Havens was a failure because it took three years to sell through on its 50,000 unit print run, and the Digital Grimoire is a huge success because it sold a couple hundred copies. So to have WotC walk away from the pdf sales altogether is fairly understandable.

The point of contention thus is what position pirated pdfs fill in the modern economy. People demonstrably want to own physical objects more than they want to own digital copies, so one is entirely on safe grounds to call such piracy a form of advertising. It's the old free samples dilemma: is getting a lesser version free more likely to whet your appetite and inspire you to pay real money for the real thing, or is it more likely to satisfy you and get you to walk away without spending a dime. The truth is that both of these events do happen. But you'll notice that successful bakeries and grocery stores do give out free samples.

What WotC should be doing is giving out the digital copies for free or something very close to free. Would you pay 5 bucks for a digital copy of Primal Power? Of course, such strategies would be much more likely to boos sales if the books themselves were something that people who could count would actually want. Which from sales statistics, appears to not be the case.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:52 pm

What WotC should be doing is giving out the digital copies for free or something very close to free. Would you pay 5 bucks for a digital copy of Primal Power? Of course, such strategies would be much more likely to boos sales if the books themselves were something that people who could count would actually want.

Well, let's not forget the reverse case either. In 3E, back when Web Enhancements were free almost no DM would let PCs use bullshit from them into their game without heavy editting. I have been in quite a few 4E games and except for blatantly spotty expansion options like the unerrata'd Punisher of the Gods the DMs accept on the level of sourcebooks.

I actually think charging a small price for web enhancements rather than handing them out for free was a smart bit of marketing. The quality of these things didn't increase but by attaching a price tag to them it increased the perceived quality and thus worth of these products. WotC has to be tickled pink by the fact that content they couldn't get people to use for free now gets used in games once they attach a price tag to it.

Thymos · Post by **Thymos** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:09 pm

But you'll notice that successful bakeries and grocery stores do give out free samples.

Those samples are of a high quality though. You need to have something that will wet peoples appetites if you expect sampling to do any good.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:58 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Now we get to the really exciting numbers. Remember Titanium Dragon's linked Shill interview? Greg Leeds says everything is fine at WotC land several times in very specifically vague ways. Selling through of "printings" rather than "units" - that sort of thing. But look at what else he says:

Greg Leeds from WotC wrote:We can conservatively estimate that for every one book downloaded legally, ten were downloaded illicitly.
And the court case:

WotC in court wrote:However, by the time Sribd removed the unauthorized copy of Player's Handbook 2 from Defendant Nolan's Scribd page, approximately 1,010 copies had been downloaded
Really? So conservatively, they sold 101 digital copies of the PHB 2?

Greg Leeds again wrote:Without citing specific numbers, our content is distributed to hundreds of thousands of people, and our PDF business was small in comparison.
No kidding.

-Username17

I don't think you can really say they only sold 101 copies though - Sribd was only one potential source of pirated PDFs (I'm betting more were downloaded untracked via torrent).

The one in ten figure is also an "estimate", so it's possible that this is based on a different study as opposed to a pure "known illicit copies vs sold copies" calculation. Note that in the same paragraph that he says this estimate, he also says that the PHB II had been downloaded thousands of times - which is a bit more than what Sribd put out.

That being said, I'm not sure that giving out free PDF copies is a really good idea if 3.X is any indication. Let's be honest. Most people don't use 95% of the contents of most supplements because they, frankly, suck. 4E's supplements are likewise just re-releasing the same flawed engine with shiny new packaging by calling it "Martial", "Psionic" or whatever. It's more likely that people will look at these books, realize their poor value, and stay away.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:18 am

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:47 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
Well, despite net boosterism to the contrary, there really isn't a market for e-books. People don't actually want to pay real money for a book that they can't physically own, loan freely to friends, and flip pages back and forth on. This is not an uncommon position.

-Username17

Are we talking books in general?

If so people are willing to pay for ebooks if they are reasonable priced (and with no DRM, so they can read em).
http://www.webscription.net/

This company by the way gives away free samples of (some of) their books:
http://www.webscription.net/c-1-free-library.aspx

And since we are talking about piracy, Eric Flint (SF Autor and Editor) has something to say about that http://www.baens-universe.com/authors/Eric_Flint
(Look for the DRM Symbol)
He was the first (?) to give (some of) his books away for free.

cu

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:37 am

Zinegata wrote: I don't think you can really say they only sold 101 copies though - Sribd was only one potential source of pirated PDFs (I'm betting more were downloaded untracked via torrent).

Yeah, there are plenty of sources for piracy. File sharing software, torrents, people putting it up on rapidshare, etc.

There are tons of ways to pirate PDFs.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:09 am

Looking back on this brings some fond memories, and is especially poignant now that we've been talking about kickstart products.

Anyway, the stuff at DDXP appears to be as bad as feared:

Preview from DDXP wrote: Defilers get a power, Arcane Defiling, that only works with their daily arcane powers. It's an at-will free action to reroll any attack or damage roll (at most 1 reroll per roll), but all your allies within 20 squares take damage equal to half their healing surge value, and that damage can't be reduced or prevented.

So yes. Wizards get a pretty sizable power boost in exchange for damaging all their nearby allies. And since this is 4e, all their allies can simply choose to not be counted as their "allies" for the purposes of that effect. So Wizards get to reroll all their attack and damage rolls for free whenever they want. Life is good when you're a Wizard.

-Username17

Torko · Post by **Torko** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:48 pm

Man, if all those plants and microorganism in the soil didn't decide to ally with whatever wizard happened to be strolling by, this whole ecological disaster thing wouldn't have happened

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:53 pm

Wouldn't it be easier for the wizard to just as a free action need to collect hit points in any combination from willing targets until they get a total of twice their healing surge value in hp to activate the power?

It's more flavorful and less, you know, mind-meltingly stupid.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:54 am

What happens if there are no nearby allies?

Torko · Post by **Torko** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:48 am

Psychic Robot wrote:What happens if there are no nearby allies?

PCs operate in parties, therefore they have allies nearby (beep boop I am a robot with no creativity, also I designed 4e)

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:52 am

FrankTrollman wrote: So yes. Wizards get a pretty sizable power boost in exchange for damaging all their nearby allies. And since this is 4e, all their allies can simply choose to not be counted as their "allies" for the purposes of that effect. So Wizards get to reroll all their attack and damage rolls for free whenever they want. Life is good when you're a Wizard.

Well honestly, this might be a problem for a game run from a computer, but given that you've got a real human DM, this sort of sleazy PC move isn't going to be allowed by any but the most gullible of DMs.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:59 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Well honestly, this might be a problem for a game run from a computer, but given that you've got a real human DM, this sort of sleazy PC move isn't going to be allowed by any but the most gullible of DMs.

No RC. Bad. The rule is shit because PCs are explicitly allowed to determine if they are allies. The PCs determine they are not allies with the Wizard.

The only solution to this problem to make it less shitty is for the DM to change the rules.

Oberoni does not make the original rules good.

Aharon · Post by **Aharon** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:38 pm

Well, technically, it might be a fallacy, but in this case, the intention is really absolutely clear, isn't it?

It's similar to how metamagic and arcane spells were ruled by the vast majority of DMs in 3rd ed despite the RAW - the rules as intended were rather clear (no cleric spells from scrolls for wizards), so they went with that. I guess this is a similar case.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:47 pm

Aharon wrote:Well, technically, it might be a fallacy, but in this case, the intention is really absolutely clear, isn't it?

The intention of all kinds of bad options is that they be good. The intention of all kinds of overpowered options is that they be fair. This is a game where Iron Armbands of Power do not affect whirlwind attacks, because Iron Armbands give a bonus to melee attacks and whirlwind attacks are close burst attacks.

It's a game whose entire point is that you read the entries and do exactly what they say, no more and no less. And in that context, the fact that "allies" are defined as "willing targets" means that a power that does something bad to all your nearby allies does nothing by definition.

-Username17

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:10 pm

Aharon wrote:Well, technically, it might be a fallacy, but in this case, the intention is really absolutely clear, isn't it?

Is it? The wizard just rescued a peasant - is the peasant his ally? If so, can he kill him with this power and still have him count as an ally? Is an unconscious party member an ally? An unconscious goblin? A dominated party member? The king's pet falcon?

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:50 pm

Murtak wrote:
Aharon wrote:Well, technically, it might be a fallacy, but in this case, the intention is really absolutely clear, isn't it?
Is it? The wizard just rescued a peasant - is the peasant his ally? If so, can he kill him with this power and still have him count as an ally? Is an unconscious party member an ally? An unconscious goblin? A dominated party member? The king's pet falcon?

"Ally" is defined in the game rules, and it's a status you can change at will.

K · Post by K » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:01 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: So yes. Wizards get a pretty sizable power boost in exchange for damaging all their nearby allies. And since this is 4e, all their allies can simply choose to not be counted as their "allies" for the purposes of that effect. So Wizards get to reroll all their attack and damage rolls for free whenever they want. Life is good when you're a Wizard.
Well honestly, this might be a problem for a game run from a computer, but given that you've got a real human DM, this sort of sleazy PC move isn't going to be allowed by any but the most gullible of DMs.

Meaning that this meets the criteria of a badly written rule of "will anyone taking even a single glance at this realize that they and their DM are going to have to write a new rule?"

I mean, the only reason you buy RPG material from sourcebooks to adventures is for the convenience of not having to write and playtest your own stuff. In that, they have failed.

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:32 pm

IGTN wrote:
Murtak wrote:
Aharon wrote:Well, technically, it might be a fallacy, but in this case, the intention is really absolutely clear, isn't it?
Is it? The wizard just rescued a peasant - is the peasant his ally? If so, can he kill him with this power and still have him count as an ally? Is an unconscious party member an ally? An unconscious goblin? A dominated party member? The king's pet falcon?
"Ally" is defined in the game rules, and it's a status you can change at will.

In other words: we don't actually know how the power is intended to work.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:48 pm

K wrote: Meaning that this meets the criteria of a badly written rule of "will anyone taking even a single glance at this realize that they and their DM are going to have to write a new rule?"

I mean, the only reason you buy RPG material from sourcebooks to adventures is for the convenience of not having to write and playtest your own stuff. In that, they have failed.

Honestly though, that's not something you really have to write new rules for. This is just a case of telling your PCs not to do something obviously sleazy with the intent of breaking the rules.

This isn't something like shivering touch that's blatantly overpowered when used as intended. This isn't even something that is a borderline edge case. This is a case where the DM knows the PC is purely trying to abuse the rules, the PC knows he's trying to abuse the rules. It goes beyond powergaming and right into obnoxious rules lawyering of the worst kind.

It's just a sleazy move and that's all there is to it. If this were a competitive game, like 40K or M:tG, then this would be a problem, but seriously, exploits like this don't even show up on the radar. Things like orbizards and superhealing clerics are way more of a problem. They're problems that actually have to be mechanically fixed. This problem can just be fixed by telling your players not be metagaming douchebags.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:12 pm

Feel like answering Murtak's questions RC?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:34 pm

Torko wrote:Man, if all those plants and microorganism in the soil didn't decide to ally with whatever wizard happened to be strolling by, this whole ecological disaster thing wouldn't have happened

Yeah, I don't quite get what the rationale behind this is. Why wouldn't "defiling" hurt all life, not just your buddies?

Wyzzard · Post by **Wyzzard** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:03 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:This problem can just be fixed by telling your players not be metagaming douchebags.

You're seriously dealing with a power that mysteriously hurts all your friends, but not your enemies, or the flowers, or the giant frogs ...and then you get mad when noone wants to be your friend? That's Metagaming to you?

So Joe BSF the character has to choose the option that hurts him, because otherwise his player is a metagaming douchebag?
Eventhough the rules say that it's perfectly allright for Joe to say that he's not actually going to call himself an ally of the Wizard who is draining him of his fucking life force?

Seems to me, that if they intended Defiling to do something that specific, then perhaps they should have made its wording a little more ...oh I dunno ...specific?
Like, you know, checking up on the definition of "ally" in their own fucking game.

Stupid rules are stupid, and blaming the player is not a constructive solution.