Balancing 3.x

[PhoneLobster]

Yes, indubitably, saying that people's opinion of what is fun is subjective is indefensible.

No it fucking isn't. He is discussing what would be fun for a game with a group of other people numbering around half a dozen. We even know the nature of the game and have some idea about what the group expects from it.

"Fun" game design is very easy to define here. And it does NOT include making those people feel sad for half their game play time.

So put up or STFU, one last time before you go onto ignore forever. WHO LIKES THEIR D&D CHARACTERS TO SUCK FOR HOURS ON END?

[edited for clarity]

[Caedrus]

So put up or STFU

I did in fact put up, you just refused to actually read what I was saying and started screaming straw man arguments at me in ALLCAPS.

Yes, indubitably, saying that people's opinion of what is fun is subjective is indefensible.

Yes it fucking is.

That is gold.

[PhoneLobster]

You ninja editted some stuff five times actually.

But still.

An astute (or at least marginally sane) observer might note that no game design position is addressed herein, nor is Paranoia, D&D, characters sucking, or anything of the sort mentioned.

He was talking about a typical D&D problem. He was discussing fighters and wizards and even implying vancian magic.

Meanwhile the demand that you give me ANY group of fucking players who want their characters to relatively suck for hours of game play STILL remains unmet.

And that isn't a strawman. It is a requirement for the "opinion" that implementing a mechanic that makes them suck like that "would be fun" to be true.

If you can't produce an example WHICH YOU CAN'T. And if you reject an example like Paranoia because it shows your position to be stupid which you do. Then the opinion is just plain fucking wrong.

You are a moron Caedrus.

You have annoyed me with your stupidity for the last time.

You are making outlandish claims about English language comprehension while failing to even make a single actual point in your own favor. You can't complain about people failing to divine your argument while utterly refusing all definition of your argument. Well, you can, but it makes you a fucking dishonest moron.

But worse than that for the sake of disagreeing with me on a fucking semantic point you not only choose to lie and mumble utter stupidity but to defend a really bad mechanic that is really bad for the "fun" experience of people playing the game.

As such you are bad for this forum and bad for game design you are on ignore. PM me with an apology if you want to be read again.

[Caedrus]

Meanwhile the demand that you give me ANY group of fucking players who want their characters to relatively suck for hours of game play STILL remains unmet.

This is what really gets me. He now is going a step beyond straw manning (claiming I argue for a point of view I don't hold) to *demanding* that I argue for a point of view I have never supported. And when I simply made the much more modest request that he point out where I said things like...

And if you reject an example like Paranoia because it shows your position to be stupid which you do.

or

but to defend a really bad mechanic that is really bad for the "fun" experience of people playing the game.

That humble challenge "STILL remains unmet."

Seriously, I want to actually see where I said something about Paranoia, D&D, game design, or rejecting examples or defended a mechanic or anything of the sort in this thread. I'd really like to see where I said anything in this thread that you claim I said.

You are a moron Caedrus.
...
As such you are bad for this forum and bad for game design. PM me with an apology if you want to be read again.

Isn't it cute how he goes batshit crazy over me simply saying the one line "actually, people's opinion of fun is subjective, not objective"? That's seriously all I said in this thread besides saying that I didn't in fact say anything other than that.

Have a nice day, PL.

[Anguirus]

I'm sorry. I didn't intend for this thread to turn into a shit storm. I just wanted advice on how to achieve a particular (unpopular) design goal. Lesson learned.

[PhoneLobster]

It's far from your fault, that guy has a history of spectacular stupidity. If it were a one off I wouldn't have ignored his sorry ass.

[Draco_Argentum]

It's far from your fault, that guy has a history of spectacular stupidity. If it were a one off I wouldn't have ignored his sorry ass.

I dunno why Caedrus didn't do this. *points at Anguirus* Theres apparently one person out of the small number of people in this thread who thinks sucking half the time would be fun. I think it reasonable that there are others on the planet.

What say you to that?

[PhoneLobster]

What say you to that?

He seems to have already changed his mind once the implications were pointed out.

And his initial proposal involved primarily the players of his game having sucky characters, not himself.

And Caedrus didn't point him out because then he would have made a concrete addressable claim and couldn't just whine about strawmen in response to EVERYTHING.

[Anguirus]

I didn't change my mind about anything but the advisability of asking strangers to help me design games that they themselves wouldn't play.

[PhoneLobster]

So... upon having it pointed out that your plan involves inflicting many hours worth of bellow the par characters on players, in large hour sized lumps...

You accept that and move ahead without reconsidering?

Well, I guess as long as you the designer don't have that inflicted upon you then you don't have to think too hard about the "fun" implications for those that do.

[Anguirus]

So... upon having it pointed out that your plan involves inflicting many hours worth of bellow the par characters on players, in large hour sized lumps...

You accept that and move ahead without reconsidering?

Well, I guess as long as you the designer don't have that inflicted upon you then you don't have to think too hard about the "fun" implications for those that do.

Do you recognize that people that aren't you have values that aren't yours or are you a child? Fun is by definition subjective. Stop trying to impose your values on me. Honestly, how do you survive past 5 years of age and not grasp this concept. I AM NOT YOU. I DO NOT ENJOY THE SAME THINGS THAT YOU DO. WE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

[Roy]

This thread is turning into a huge trainwreck of Fail. As such, there is only one thing in it worth responding to:

Roy, are you saying that the Nova fallacy is a fallacy because caster resources aren't as finite as their action resource? If we gave casters fewer spells per day would the nova fallacy still be applicable or would casters begin to nova?

The Nova fallacy is a fallacy for characters with limited resources because they either have enough of them so that they couldn't use them all in one fight if they wanted to (even going the least efficient route that is blasting, either your buddies will drag your dead weight through the encounter or the encounter will end on account of your side being dead weight) or they could feasibly run out but still won't as only a fraction of them still wins the fucking encounter. And the latter only really happens at level 1, where you might have 2-3 color sprays instead of 4-5 and need one per battle so casting the others is a waste.

It is also a fallacy for those who supposedly do not have limited resources because they still do (HP) and indeed that finite resource will run out faster than any other. It can also only be recovered by finite resources (healing magic) which means when the caster is running low, the fighter is the one to ask to stop and not the caster. The caster is just the one to facilliate it with a Rope Trick, so you don't get ganked like a mook.

[Anguirus]

Roy, were you to develop a system from the ground up that encouraged casters to nova how would you go about doing that?

[Roy]

Roy, were you to develop a system from the ground up that encouraged casters to nova how would you go about doing that?

Why the fuck would I do that? All that does is encourage everyone to take the day off early. It actively makes the system worse, and if you're using the Paizils definition of rebalance where you make things /worse than they started/ you can fuck right off, before you become a running joke of the intelligent sections of the tabletop gaming community like Paizo has done to themselves.

[Kaelik]

So When the Fuckity Fuck Fuck Whore Fuck did it become acceptable to hide behind the fact that things are subjective?

Yes, people with mental fucking disorders see colors when they hear sounds.

That does not mean that the color fucking red is not a fucking wavelength.

Caedrus. Fun is totally subjective. That is a correct statement. It is possible that there are people who would have a great deal of fun being murdered.

None the less, if I suggest that, hey, maybe most people, by which I mean everyone you will ever meet, will not enjoy a game in which you murder them, that does not make me wrong to say that. Because even though some people might have fun being murdered, the vast fucking majority do not.

Statistics really do matter.

So when PL says "It is not fun to suck for hours." He is not claiming that it is physically impossible for someone to enjoy sucking. He's not even claiming that 30% of the worlds population doesn't enjoy sucking dick. He's just pointing out that in a fucking roleplaying game, 95% of the people you will ever meet are not going to enjoy the 2 hour period that their character is a fucking commoner, and bobs character is a Wizard.

This is not crazy talk. This is totally fucking sane, and when you bitch moan about how it is subjective, you are fucking retarded. Because every single thing involving humans is subjective and that doesn't fucking matter.

And Anguirus, yes, you are totally and completely wrong.

Your players are going to hate that shit, I understand you are retarded and think the DM is more important. You are wrong.

Look, just pick a game where level roughly equals power, like D&D, and just declare that some people are morning people, and they are level 20 for the first two fights, and level 1 for future fights, and some people are evening people, and they are level 1 for the first two fights, and level 20 for remainder.

Then make them all have a level 1 and level 20 sheet, and run the game against CR 15 enemies all the time.

This way you can have some people miserably sitting out the fights while hating you at all times without having to design a new system.

Hopefully, they will revolt and usurp you and force you to play in your own shitty game just long enough to see how shitty it is to not be a contributing member of the party.

[Caedrus]

Caedrus. Fun is totally subjective. That is a correct statement. It is possible that there are people who would have a great deal of fun being murdered.

Exactly. Of course it's a true statement. And that's all I was saying: PL claiming that his opinion of fun is objective and factual is a stupid thing to say. Nothing else is being suggested by my statements other than what I actually said.

And that's why I thought PL's screaming objections to said statement was hilarious.

Yes, indubitably, saying that people's opinion of what is fun is subjective is indefensible.

Yes it fucking is.

So When the Fuckity Fuck Fuck Whore Fuck did it become acceptable to hide behind the fact that things are subjective?

Never. Could you please point out a post where I suggested that it was a defense for anything?

So when PL says "It is not fun to suck for hours."

Oh, I agree. And disagree strongly with Anguirus's ideas. You might note in the post that started PL's outburst I said they were both full of it.

This is not crazy talk. This is totally fucking sane

Kaelik, you might note that the part I said was crazy talk was this kind of talk:

Yes, indubitably, saying that people's opinion of what is fun is subjective is indefensible.

Yes it fucking is.

And that is in fact crazy talk. I was not in any way defending Anguirus. I was taking issue with PL's disingenuous style of argument.

[Roy]

So When the Fuckity Fuck Fuck Whore Fuck did it become acceptable to hide behind the fact that things are subjective?

When people bring in the passive aggressive drivel so frequently seen almost everywhere else.

[mean_liar]

I mean seriously, how you go from this:

Your opinion that it is fun to make player characters suck for hours on end is objectively factually wrong.

No it's not. That's just as stupid as suggesting that opinions can't be wrong. In fact fun is about as subjective a topic as they come.

to whining about me "defending D&D with Paranoia" can only be explained by either you having godawful reading comprehension, or just being a extraordinarily disingenuous dick.

Unfortunately, it is more the former than the latter. That said I think the real problem is that he views most people as irreparably stupid and therefore uses strawmen because he actually assumes that's what you're thinking, so "disingenuous" probably isn't the right word.

Did you PM him your apology yet?

[Kaelik]

Caedrus, I know your specialty is being a whiny weaselly bitch who makes bold retarded statements and then denies that any possible statement or word could ever have any possible implied meaning. But this is going to far even for you.

"Anqwhatever the fuck: I have fun DMing a system where half of my players sit in a corner hating me all the time. I assume therefore that other people enjoy sitting in a corner hating me.

PL: That's a dumb system. It is not fun to sit in a corner.

You: PL you are Wrong fun is subjective!"

==

"Some other Idiot: I have fun murdering people. I assume therefore that other people enjoy being murdered by me.

PL: That's dumb. It is not fun to be murdered.

You: PL you are Wrong! Fun is subjective!"

You are just wrong Caedrus. Saying shit like that does have implied meanings. And by telling PL to not say someone is wrong, you are telling the other person they are not wrong, when they fucking are.

And you need to stop being such a fucking bitch about it.

Objective and Subjective are not mutually exclusive. Objective things are things which are True Given X. But nothing in the entire fucking universe can stop some idiot, like your retarded ass, from claiming that X is not true.

But you know what, suck my fucking nuts. If you are a human being alive, you do not enjoy sitting in a corner while your friends fight monsters in a game you took time out of your day to play.

Therefore, Given that someone is playing this game, I can objectively state that for all possible instances of anyone ever playing any game, they do not have fun while their character sits in a corner.

See how that fucking works. Yes, you can be a whiny bitch and point out that it is subjective in that someone else who isn't playing the game, might have fun playing the game. That has no bearing on anything, because those people are locked up in a mental institution.

You know what. Fuck it. I just typed this, and it's a waste of my time, because you are going to try to say that no words ever have any implied meanings of any kind, and that every single time someone says the word necessary they mean the logical "required for the existence of" bullshit that no one ever actually means and you probably yell at them for being wrong.

Because you are fucking retarded and I've decided that no human being could possibly actually be such a weasel as to try your defense of everything you say, so you must actually have a fucking mental condition where you are incapable of understanding implied usage.

[RandomCasualty2]

"No it's not. That's just as stupid as suggesting that opinions can't be wrong. In fact fun is about as subjective a topic as they come." An astute (or at least marginally sane) observer might note that no game design position is addressed herein, nor is Paranoia, D&D, characters sucking, or anything of the sort mentioned.

What PL hears:
"People love for their characters to suck! Paranoia justifies D&D game design! I agree with the person I just insulted the words of!"

Someone needs to be checked into a psychiatric ward.

Yeah... PL does that shit a lot.

He's king of the strawmen.

And Kaelik is tossing out his arrogant "My D&D is the only right way to play" argument.

Pretty typical really...

[Caedrus]

PL: That's a dumb system. It is not fun to sit in a corner.
You: PL you are Wrong fun is subjective!"

This is an obviously inaccurate version of events thrown out by a guy who just wants to yell at me because he can't let out his dirty laundry from another thread.

What PL Actually Said: "Your opinion that it is fun to make player characters suck for hours on end is objectively factually wrong."
Me: "Actually, that's not objective or factual and saying that it is is pretty much on the same order of such statements as "my opinion can't be wrong.""

Notice the difference there? Isn't it amazing how just scrolling back and reading the thread can counter straw men so easily?

What's really funny is that by Kaelik's own logic, he is arguing that it's fun to sit in a corner and suck, because he agreed that my original statement was true (which, by his logic, means he is making the implication that he is using Paranoia to defend D&D, etc etc etc).

Pretty typical really...

Yeah... I know... *Sigh*.

Did you PM him your apology yet?

[PhoneLobster]

Kaelik, you are wasting your time.

But you clearly already know that.

There is simply always going to be some small group of dick weeds wandering around here sabotaging discussions by demanding that we can never make any judgments about anything they want to do or indeed even anything they even say. You just have to ignore them because otherwise you can't have a real discussion at all.

Talking about what they want to do isn't fair because it is supposedly "subjective" (a magic word they have been told makes them immune to criticism)

Talking about what they SAY isn't fair because it is a "strawman" another magic word the only meaning of which they can divine is that again it makes them immune to criticism.

Basically these guys have whatever Elensar had. They are even using the same damn arguments about being misunderstood, misrepresented, subjectively different, and enjoying things no sane person would. Just substitute "sitting in a corner" with "high fatality heroism" and well...

There's no engaging with that position, they are just here to spread shit and prevent actual discussion of design implications.

[RandomCasualty2]

Talking about what they SAY isn't fair because it is a "strawman" another magic word the only meaning of which they can divine is that again it makes them immune to criticism.

You don't talk about what people said, you talk about words that you put in their mouth.

Here is his first response to you and what I gather started the entire tirade.

No it's not. That's just as stupid as suggesting that opinions can't be wrong. In fact fun is about as subjective a topic as they come.

His statement is saying the following:

Opinions and fun are both subjective.

And that's what started it... which you somehow turned into the strawman of him supporting characters in RPGs sucking (even though he said no such thing). As usual, you're not arguing against the original position of the person you're arguing with, but rather against some strawman you made up.

I wonder sometimes if you actually know how to read or if you just can read every other word and fill in the blanks with random shit you made up.

[PhoneLobster]

Opinions and fun are both subjective.

Except when you hold an opinion on a matter that can be determined by observing reality.

Like what gamers enjoy spending their gaming time doing.

We can like, go have a look and see the answer to that one.

It isn't sucking.

So an opinion contrary to that is objectively wrong.

But then. Why bother telling you. You will just say "I never said that, strawman, words in my mouth ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE, eeeeeeeeh!"

[Kaelik]

by a guy who just wants to yell at me because he can't let out his dirty laundry from another thread.

What thread? Are you a weasel? Of course you are. You have been a weasel in every post you have ever made starting from when I first encountered you on gitp. That has no bearing on right now other than that you == weasel. I'm not pissed about you being in a weasel in past threads. I was pissed at you being a weasel in this thread. Now I'm just going to accept that it's a mental disease that makes you unable to contribute meaningfully to most any discussion, just like Roys mouth diarrhea and meme propagation disease.

What PL Actually Said: "Your opinion that it is fun to make player characters suck for hours on end is objectively factually wrong."
Me: "Actually, that's not objective or factual and saying that it is is pretty much on the same order of such statements as "my opinion can't be wrong.""

So you totally missed the part where I explained to you that it is objectively and factually wrong to make the claim that "it is fun for people who want to play D&D to sit in a corner not playing D&D."

I understand that you just skim what people say looking for keywords to yell at them about for being wrong, but everyone not you is actually talking about the actual conversation being had, which requires the ability to read in context, something apparently not just beyond you, but beyond even your comprehension.