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Roy
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Post by Roy »

StormBringer wrote:I've heard this a bunch of times, but I am still somewhat confused. In regards to earlier editions, it is often said that Fighters suck and Wizards win D&D. Is this in the concepts or the mechanics behind them, or have people really played Fighters that had no contribution to party success, while the Wizard just magicked up a win for the whole module/scenario/campaign on a regular basis?
And to add to this...

The main key to success is variety. Since you can seriously go and fight a chick with the worst bad hair day ever who will turn you to stone if you look her in the eye, then go fight some squid head thing that will eat your brains if given half a chance the very next day. And while they might not vary that much (Medusa to Mind Flayer), the point is that you're going to be facing a wide array of different enemies. That means different strengths and weaknesses, and therefore you need different tactics. Versatility is power, and it is very much an adapt or die world.

Trouble is, Fighters can't adapt. They have to specialize in a single very narrow trick just to be able to do anything at all, and the moment that trick stops working is the moment they cease to have any meaning on the battlefield. And even with that, those moments come more and more often since even if they can one charge or infinitely triplock something they still have to actually execute the move, and creatures who can adapt can easily just say 'Lol, no' and block him. Even when faced with the enemies who themselves have no tricks they still lose, because those enemies are better at run up and hit it than they will ever be and therefore they are going to lose any stat contest there. Which is all they're left with - their numbers vs enemy much higher numbers.

Wizards can. Spells are very broad - even a Glitterdust can neutralize large entire categories of encounters, even far beyond level 3. And this is just sticking to the practical stuff - they can easily totally break the game by getting infinite power, even in core only. 'Having the right spell for the job' is a fallacy when you are carrying around anywhere from 3 to over 3 dozen different varieties of Swiss Army Knives depending on level. And this is without taking into consideration the ability to actually change their prepared spells to know what they will face, which they know about due to divination based recon and the like instead of just preparing a general purpose array and proceeding to make the hardest decision of the fight 'What win spell should I use'.

The funny thing is though, the Wizard with just the practical stuff is about the only one actually capable of playing D&D. Well, the rest of the Big Five are with him, and there's a handful of others, but they're about the only ones that get expected results in Same Game Tests. Fighters get much less, even if specifically designed for the SGT.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 »

Roy wrote:The funny thing is though, the Wizard with just the practical stuff is about the only one actually capable of playing D&D. Well, the rest of the Big Five are with him, and there's a handful of others, but they're about the only ones that get expected results in Same Game Tests. Fighters get much less, even if specifically designed for the SGT.
It's also important to note that even that only holds true until about 10th level or so. After that, the Wizard starts really slapping same game tests around with his penis. And the reason for this is simply options. The higher level monsters still only have a few tricks each, and by 15th level a wizard really can expect to have a counter for all of them and automagically win. It's even more one sided, albeit in the opposite direction, for Fighters - by 15th level the Death Slaad on a Titanic Toad just crushes him without taking severe damage in return because the numbers are just off the scale.

Some of this can be left at the feet of the 3.5 revisions, which explicitly made outsider types less versatile as casters and more powerful as melee beat sticks - something which made them much easier for mages to contain and much harder for fighters to deal with. And of course, printing more spells always increases the options of magicians much more than it increases anything for Fighters. But really it was pretty much like this in 3e from the get go.

To really challenge high level characters the 3e model of "fight a big monster, then do it again" really doesn't work. Encounters really should be things like "two dozen Hill Giants backed up by two mind flayers and some harpy scouts." A Nightmare Beast will use up a bunch of spell slots to kill, but he isn't any threat to a Wizard.

-Username17
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