Plz help, SR4 melee adept'ish.

hound · Post by **hound** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:11 pm

So... here's my goal. Any advice is welcome!

I want to make a type O human, shapechanger or changeling since they have the easiest time passing for human/non-descript. I'm willing to give up on Type O, but it seems like a nifty concept to use for an adept.

I'd like an adept (at least I'm pretty sure adept makes the best subtle melee guy.) If adept is not the best path, I'm open to suggestions.

I've been considering the Type O body to allow me room for any bio/bodyware early game, since it seems to make good creation sense to have some ware.

So, my goals:
1. Subtle, want to be able to go pretty much where I please without raising TOO many eyebrows.
2. Deadly. I'd like to avoid Mono whips, and I really enjoy the thought of unarmed combat as a fighting style.
3. Some utility, min/max is great but I need to at least have a 2nd trick that I can pass off as competent.

Thanks y'all, I appreciate any help at all.

Sir Neil · Post by **Sir Neil** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:54 am

1. IIRC, a biosamurai is more subtle.

2. Stun batons. They're not as good as guns, of course. I did the math once; monowhips are the equivalent of a two-handed axe wielded by a troll with near max strength, as I recall. Stun batons are number two.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:57 am

Sir_Neil wrote:1. IIRC, a biosamurai is more subtle.

Yeah, detecting that someone is awakened is a lot simpler than detecting bioware, and probably raises at least as many alarms.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:33 am

In the long run, it becomes easier to hide the fact that you're awakened than the fact that you're using bioware, but I don't know what level you're starting at. You won't be able to do it with a starting-level character anyway because you don't have metamagic. But still.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:49 am

Shapechangers are not humans and cannot be type O humans. Or type O at all. It's a metahuman cellular surface protein type and you can't have t if you are, for example, a jaguar. Changelings are by definition not subtle, and really neither are shapechangers. You probably just want to be a metahuman. I suggest Ork, because they are the master race.

Monowhips are pretty much the go-to weapon for subtle melee-based murderation. They are smaller and more lethal than any other melee weapon by a substantial margin. If yo don't want to go that way, you can do some pretty nasty damage with bone density/lacing and strength enhancement - but that gives up a lot of subtlety as you then come up on millimeter radar as having weird bones.

There are really a lot of agility based skills, and melee combat is one of them. So it's easy enough to start with an Agility of 7 and be "very good" at combat and infiltration and lockpicking and such. Seriously, carry some rating 6 pickers, take Lockpicking at 1, and you'll be steam rolling conventional locks at 14 dice as a afterthought.

-Username17

hound · Post by **hound** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:50 am

Thanks everyone!

I appreciate the candid response to shapechangers and changelings... I'll nix them from my list as they're not subtle.

Is type O worth the buy along with adept? We're starting with 400 points to build with.

Also, as far as bone lacing goes, I was thinking of using Ceramic so that it wouldn't show up on scans, or at least that's what my GM said. Would the absence of lacing and using the killing hands power be better?

What does "very good" mean? And if I wanted to step up the melee combatant from "very good" to "holy shnikees," how would I go about that?

I was thinking of using the set up, finishing move, etc. line of stuff for a very defensive fighter but it fails to make sense for the subtle killer theme I'm thinking of.

Also, I was trying to stay away from any metahuman other than human just for shear blendability. I want someone who just fades into the background in nearly any setting.

For lack of a less assinine parallel, think Jason Bourne, from the book, not the movie.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:52 am

What is "Typo O"?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:21 am

Korwin wrote:What is "Typo O"?

Shadowrun History Time!

Type O blood is blood that has neither A nor B surface proteins on it, allowing it, to one degree or another, to be transfused into people of Type O, Type A, Type B, or Type B blood without being rejected. Early Shadowrun Books talked about "Type O Tissues" that you could implant into anyone, which for people aware of how tissue matching works is kind of a stretch. But it was a good pitch if your audience was 10 (as I was when I first got my hands on the blue hardcover of SR1).

Flash forward to Augmentation, and we're trying to give out a bit thicker pseudo-science in the Sci-Fi sections of the rules. But we've got people in canon running around with Type O organ transplants. What to do? So I manufactured a historical coincidence, where there is an actual guy whose cell line was discovered to lack surface proteins that would be rejected by metahuman immune systems on his organ tissues (no such person exists, and probably can't, but hey it's the future). His name starts with the letter O, so by standard convention, his cell line is called "Type Owen' or simply "Type O." Ta-da, canonicity problem solved.

And then that particular story was run with and you can take a Quality that allows you to have that cell type yourself. Which means that your tissues are universal donor tissues. But it also means that standard grade off-the-shelf bio-ware happens to be an advanced tissue match for you, so when you buy Muscle Augmentation in its basic form, it counts as if it was Delta Grade while it is in you.

-Username17

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:31 am

Thanks!

hound · Post by **hound** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:20 am

So Frank... any suggestions for a 2 pt or less of essence loss Combat Adept made from human stock? I'm intrigued by teh Type O since it'd let me fill in more blanks with bioware, etc and still stay inside that 1 - 2 point golden area you've mentioned in other threads... also, what're the golden calves of combat adept powers?

Thanks again, by the way.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:33 pm

Melee combat is a tough act to do. Basically while a shooter is getting two shots an action, you're only getting one. So to have people take you seriously, you need to be dropping enemies in one hit. That's... much more difficult than dropping enemies in two hits due to SR4's "two shots" problem with damage calculation. But it can be done. Pretty much what you need is to be handing your enemies 12P or more in a single attack. A Monowhip starts at 8P, so that's "only" 4 net hits on the attack roll (for example: 7 Agility, 4 skill, 2 Reach = 13 dice). But you can get something almost as good with a Strength of 9 and Bone Density 4 - that's a base 8P as well. You can bypass these difficulties slightly if you beat people with poisoned weapons. But that gets expensive and your second attack doesn't land until the end of the round, which basically means it doesn't land at all if you are fighting street sams.

I still think you want to be an Ork, because they are the master race and they are the second most common metatype. Have a wide variety of uniforms for shitty jobs like janitor, teamster, and mechanic. You wouldn't think that a 2m tall guy could hide in plain sight, but in Shadowrun he totally can. Regardless, you pretty much have to decide on whether you want to specialize in damage soak or pure passive spying potential. An Ork can easily enough be throwing 24 or more dice on damage resistance in street legal armor. That combined with a halfway decent reaction can tell most handheld popguns to fuck all the way off. Alternately, Orks don't have an Intuition cap reduction, so they can seriously have the full Street Sam sensory kit and steamroller mysteries and ambushes with 17 die perception tests.

Anyway, the core of Bioware is the Synaptic Booster. It's not affected by Type O because it's cultured ware, but it's the tungsten standard of reaction enhancement. It is seriously superior to every other piece of ware or adept power published. Seriously every character is going to want one - even magicians and hackers. All of the standard Bioware in Augmentation is basically cosmetic so you might as well skip the entire section. The big ones to note are the Muscle Toner (bonus to Agility adds to a lot of skills) and Synthacardium (holy shit, +3 dice on Full Defense, WTF!).

For 2 Essence you can pay out for 1.4 Essence in Bioware and 1.2 Essence in Cyber. That's plenty for a Type O character to come into play with Synaptc Booster 3, Muscle Toner 2, and Synthacardium 3. And then you can go absolutely fucking nuts on the cybersenses and nanites.

-Username17

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:54 pm

Yeah, cybereyes 3 with flare comp, low light, thermographic, enhancement 3, and magnification are a pretty cool deal at only about 10k. And that's the sort of thing that anyone rich enough to purchase top of the line eyes might have--unlike a crazy set of goggles, which make you look like a super spy. And it leaves room for retinal duplication.

But Frank, I have a question: the classic vat ninja has a monomolecular finger whip, but it seems like the thumb is actually harder to hide than just palming the whip. Is there a good way to hide the compartment?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:13 pm

I am fond of ring spools myself. A gold/tungsten ring is more mass than a finger tip, so it works. Other people like belt buckles, and I do not fault them for that. No one looks behind a belt buckle or jacket clasp.

Note also: being a Face is all about your bonuses. It is entirely reasonable to be an Ork or even a Troll. Charisma only adds to five skills, making it only slightly better than just taking a Skill Group. Most of the bonuses, especially the Adept Bonuses, aren't really linked to anything or meaningfully capped. So if you want to be an Ork Face, you can just do that.

-Username17

hound · Post by **hound** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:14 am

So... orks are nearly as blendable as humans? My thought is this is the guy who walks up to you on your walk to or from work, or in the hall in your building and nix's you before there's time to raise a kerfuffle.

What're the stats for melee combat? I read elsewhere (and am reading the combat section tonight) that str gives you 1 damage per 2 points and your accuracy also adds to your damage. For every success you get a damage point out of it? So 1 in 3 or 4 Agility is worth a damage point. Am I way off on that though/assessment?

Also, what's the best way to NOT get shot to collander'hood while closing the distance or hiding behind our trusty Orc grenadier?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:21 am

You'll probably want to specialize in sprinting, wear a chameleon suit when you aren't in disguise, and be in melee range with your target before they start shooting. And carry a gun.

shau · Post by **shau** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:37 am

First of all, check out this link http://daegann.free.fr/programmes/programmes.php. That goes to a nifty little character builder that might help you.

When making a melee attack, you basically roll dice equal to your agility plus your melee skill plus any other miscellaneous modifiers. To find out how much of your strength you add to a weapon's damage you have to look at the weapon's entry. A katana. for example, let's you add half your strength to damage, which is pretty normal. However, the awesome weapons, such as the monofiliment whip or stun baton, do not get anything from strength. That's why you don't care about strength in melee combat unless you are some weird build like a bone density fighter. Also, since you don't need strength to carry anything it means that strength is pretty much the eternal dump stat in shadowrun. That's why I disagree with Frank about orcs being the awesome race, because although they get more points than other races two of those points are in a worthless stat. Basically you want to ask yourself if you are willing to spend a point of edge and 20 BP for 3 body, which is not a bad deal, bad not something so awesome that it feels exploitative either.

Getting into melee range is mostly going to be stealth or disguise. So depending on the situation you will either be sneaking up behind behind wearing a chameleon suit or nonchalantly sidling up to people and then stabbing them. Being a lowly orc janitor or maintenance man is a good way to go unnoticed, but considering how close you want to be you might want to go for being a bland human in a suit. A latex mask is a very cheap way to improve your disguise. It can double your disguise skill for only 500 nuyen, though you might have to put points in computers or an edit program.

If you want to know how to get into melee after combat begins, that's really hard. Trying to run down a narrow office hallway in order to punch the people shooting at you works about as well as charging in modern warfare, by which I mean not at all. Your only real chance is to see if someone can make you a build defensive enough that bullets aren't threatening, but I think that stopped being an option in SR3.

I don't want to discourage you, but playing something simple like a gun bunny or social adept might be a lot easier for a new player.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:59 am

shau wrote:Your only real chance is to see if someone can make you a build defensive enough that bullets aren't threatening, but I think that stopped being an option in SR3.

With crazy gymnastics and a synaptic booster you can make guns a lot less threatening. Not enough that you can ignore them, but enough that you can dodge a few bullets.

hound · Post by **hound** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:25 am

I've been given the 'simple' character concepts but they don't appeal to me.

The group I'm going to be playing with is an orc grenadier, a street sam and an elf social adept.

We don't have an up close guy. I could abandon subtle and just go bat shit nuts... That might just be my solution.

It seems like it would be easier since we have a superface.

hound · Post by **hound** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:31 am

Ok, so... my focus is now changed. Apparently our orc 'grenadier' is an orc melee adept who likes to throw things... those things being mostly grenades.

lol

time to make a gun bunny, or archer.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:07 am

You could also make a utility magician. I mean seriously, your team seems to be an Ork samurai, a human samurai, and an elf samurai. You might want to do something else.

-Username17

hound · Post by **hound** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:53 am

What do you have in mind, Frank?

I've not done a lot of exploring into the magic side of things because it seems like everything I read on the boards and 'net say that magicians are awful.

as a side note, our street samurai (non orc) is apparently considering going the drone/hacker route.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:11 am

hound wrote:I've not done a lot of exploring into the magic side of things because it seems like everything I read on the boards and 'net say that magicians are awful.

That is... not the general consensus.

Conjuring and utility magic are incredibly powerful because they do completely arbitrary "stuff" - much of which is not replicable, cumulative, or even multiplicative with things that can be done with normal physics and technology.

Powerbolt, Shape Metal, Heal, and the Spirit Powers of Movement and Guard are very noticeable for working extremely differently than their closest mundane analogs - and the differences can be exploited to great effect.

-Username17

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:06 pm

It also looks like you're missing a hacker. There's actually a good bit of synergy between logic traditions and hacking.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:30 pm

Having a possession spirit tradition will give you all of the anime martial arts that you crave.

Only two problems with the idea. One is that you still need the metamagic of masking to hide your aura (though once you get it you can make it very hard for people to determine your signature, especially with foci) and the second is that unless you're willing to salami slice you will lose a bit of control without another piece of metamagic. I forgot what it's called, but it gives perfect control of your body while you're possessed.

Getting one metamagic isn't hard if you gun for it. You can get it in about 2 or 3 sessions if you specifically aim for the karma bonuses. Gaining two metamagic bonuses is a significantly costlier investment. Myself, I would grab Masking first and learn how to salami slice orders.

I'm still curious about the board's feelings towards Edge. The last time I asked this question I got a 'it's great but don't invest too hard in it', which I don't really understand. Edge is great for the 'fuck you, I didn't turn into chunky salsa' denial and also for going first. If you have enough Edge you can have a good chunk of it to burn between adventures since it actually refreshes at a fairly reasonable rate.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:01 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:unless you're willing to salami slice you will lose a bit of control without another piece of metamagic. I forgot what it's called, but it gives perfect control of your body while you're possessed.

Looking this up - "Channeling", Street Magic p. 54. You can use your own skills and have fine motor control, but you still have to spend services to use the spirit's powers, you use the lower Mental attribute between the two of you for resisting mana spells/powers, . Which isn't a bad deal since you really want the physical attributes of the spirit, which shouldn't require actually spending a task (beyond what you normally would).

Oh, it also only works if you're willingly possessed... don't remember whether offensive possession works since I've never seen it used.