The Gaming Den

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:19 am

If it isn't your first character, and you happen to get up 1750 on your first, you can be a Drow:

+2 wis +2 dex Scimitar Prof, other shit.

So apparently drow have no LA, the equivalent is that you have to get 1750 favor before you can make a Drow character. I have no idea how much that is, and you don't have to 'spend' it, I think. Just have that as your total.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:37 am

So, I finally downloaded the game, and made an Elven Wizard as my first character.

Feats were Evocation Focus and Empower Spell. Grabbed a longsword as my weapon, and as my reward for the tutorial quest. It's serving me pretty well, actually. I sadly have yet to cast a spell...

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:37 am

I did think about snagging a drow; they can get TWFing earlier (they just use rapiers instead) and have a +1 to hit and damage over humans after completing their racial chain.

Problem: Drow end up with fewer hit points in the long run (up to 40 points fewer hit points if a human dumps 6 points for adaptability/greater adaptability: constitution) and are also unable to complete the Divine Might chain without diverting stat points from somewhere.

It seems sort of like a wash, actually. Drow have an easier time levelling up for slightly less 'final level' power than a human.

Just a comparison:

Human:
6 AP for A/GA: Strength
6 AP for A/GA: Constitution
6 AP for A/GA: Dexterity

Human Feat Array:
1: WP: Scimitar (since scimitars are cooler than rapiers), Extend Spell
3: Quicken Spell
6: TWF
9: ITWF
12: Oversized TWF
15: GTWF
18: Improved Critical: Scimitar

Drow:
6 AP for Elf: Dexterity
6 AP for Drow: Melee Attack
6 AP for Drow: Melee Damage

Drow Feat Array:
1: Extend Spell
3: TWF
6: Oversized
9: ITWF
12: Quicken Spell
18: Improved Critical: Scimitar

From what I see, humans can still burn those 1750 favor points for an extra 4 stat-building points. This puts their stats pretty even, considering that the drow's +2 to intelligence evens out with the human's skill point bonus. Drow do get a +2 will saving bonus against spells and spell-like effects and an additional +2 bonus to saving throws against enchantment effects. I'm not sure how valuable that is.

Human has 40 extra hit points over the drow, drow has +1 to hit and damage. Human can also burn 2 additional AP for Adaptability: Charisma so that if they find a +5 Charisma tome they can also complete the Divine Might chain. Drow can only go up to DM: III. Humans also have the option to dump some more AP into Wisdom for more spellpoints (I'm not sure how useful that option is). Also that human racial trait. I'm not sure how useful that particular thing is.

But Drow can get all of their ducks in a row for TWFing at level 3 if they find some +2 gloves of dexterity; humans have to wait until level 6. Which puts them at a two-feat kerfluffle until around level 12 (the human has to settle for Extend Spell and Quicken spell, which I doubt is as useful at these levels) when both races have to cool their heels for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting; the human then catches up here.

Big-Time Questions

How common are Tomes?
How common are Gloves of Dexterity, if those things exist in this game? The drow needs them by level 3 to start the TWFing chain. The human can wait until level 6.
How good is Extend Spell?
How good is Quicken Spell?
How much of a pain is it not to have Word of Recall?
How much of a pain is it not to have the various status-restoring spells or the death-warding spells or the spell resistance spells?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:49 am

Both Summon Monster and UMD are very good. Summon Monster helps a lot, since you can use it to set off traps (cast the summon beyond the trap, monsters comes back, sets off trap).

UMD is less useful for a Cleric, since people grab it to use Healing Wands; and you can already use them for free. Maybe damage wands might be handy.

I'm making my human wiz into my first character. It's got great crowd control; and as long as I focus on that, I'll always be useful in groups. I recently did a bunch of "mob" type quests using Hypnotism so that the Rogue I was with could just shank nearly helpless targets.

There's damage spells as well, but it's not like you can spam your spells; since you have a set pool of mana, and can only recover at Shrines that are set up at intervals in dungeons. So, it's better to just use certain spells a few times.

I'm maxing UMD on my wizard to use healing wands later on; b/c I've got an 18 int, and only 2 skills that are in-class. Repair is shit, since we won't be seeing any Warforged PCs in our groups (WF are a bought race).

.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:56 am

How good is Summon Monster for combat, though?

Any good wizard buffs I might want to grab off of a wand or a scroll? If so, how much of a UMD investment do I need?

Finally, does the Fighter Haste stack with regular haste? I have been (perhaps foolishly) been very tempted by a level of fighter for that and an extra two feats to play with.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:03 am

It's an other body, meaning you aren't getting attacked by as many enemies.

I summon it when soloing on my Cleric, and don't on my Wizard, or when my Cleric is in a group. On a melee build, extra continual damage that you don't have to pay attention do is never a bad thing.

Think of a summon as a DoT that can be applied to one target. Don't rely on it as if it was a tank. Think of it like a SA-less rogue that follows you around, doesn't take your loot, and won't bugger off when dinner is served at their table offline.

Your spell selection will also change in groups, or soloing. I prefer Divine Favor when soloing; and Bless when in groups. Protection Against Evil is a decent AC buff, but there's a couple others to pick from.

The Command spell also looks good, if your DCs are high. You make the target lie on their face. That's some free attacks right there.

I think that you might just kill the target sooner than it takes to do than it takes to cast, then kill. It could help against single tough monsters though.

Gelare · Post by **Gelare** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:43 am

I've got a level 2 wizard, and summon monster has been gold for combat. I have a celestial puppy who's better than all my opponents and who draws aggro away. Very handy. Then I brain the stupid acolytes with my quarterstaff and everything's good. Still, leveling in this game is excruciatingly slow, and unless that picks up somehow, I'm probably not going to play much.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:12 am

It will probably take the same to get to level 20 about half, or the same as it takes to reach end-game content in other MMOs.

For WoW it's about 20 days or so. Let's assume half that, meaning you're looking at getting 20 levels over 200 or so hours.

I found the Celestial Dog a bit weaksauce with my Cleric against some mobs, but then again I didn't have any CC abilities. I've got Hypnotism now.

I'll probably be on tomorrow, or this week. I'm working on wrapping up a massive translation right now, and (hopefully) I'm on the last leg of it.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:57 am

Any of you guys know where I can get a good equipment list?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:07 am

I'd say to look up the ddo forums.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:40 am

My cleric is level 3 now.

Comments:
1) I don't deal a whole lot of damage (14 str and no boosts to attack/damage beyond divine favor, which isn't really worth the spell points).
2) Healing isn't effective on myself in combat. When I'm in a party with true "melee characters" it often *is* effective because they get hit so much less (I have an AC of about 16 right now).
3) Cloaks that give feather fall 1/shrine are freaking fun and time saving. Keep at least one handy. I just leave one equipped.
4) I solo pretty well. On normal dungeons I've never died while soloing. I can't solo a hard or elite dungeon with any regularity. People like clerics though, so getting into a party wasn't too hard to stack up all of the elite dungeons.
5) Since the only spell I regularly cast is cure light wounds, I last a LONG time between shrines. Typically I'll be above half mana when I find another shrine.
6) Healer heavy groups are sweet. I did the dragon dungeon with 4 people (3 being either clerics or favored souls) and we just breezed through it. In groups with fewer than 3 healers the risk of party death is a lot higher, but when you don't have anybody die you move a good deal faster.
6) I can run this game (with heavy lag) on my apartment's shitty internet. That's pretty sweet.

PS: A denner guild would be sweet. More groups = faster leveling.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:32 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:Human Fighter with TWF and Oversized TWF to use two Longswords? Or should 2 levels of Ranger be squeezed in there? How about Barbarian for Rage?

I have to see how the Rage mechanic works, and see if dipping for a level of Barb gives appreciable benefits.

I'm guessing that many people who are TWFers dump their str and get Weapon Finesse as well, right?

Only gimps take weapon finesse.

Remember, Dexterity is generally a bad stat. And Weapon Finesse also doesn't add to damage, in addition to forcing you to use inferior weapons. Strength however is fairly useful since it's to hit, damage, and carry capacity (no such thing as extradimensional storage).

Another thing to remember is that most classes are actually worth taking for more than a level or two due to the enhancement system. Taking one level of Barb is not a good idea.

Also, take Favored Enemy: Reptillian. 90% of low level shit is kobolds. By level 5 you'll be done with them. The game gives you one free feat respec and getting more at low levels is easy. Change to something else then (Giant, Undead, both of these come up both around level 5 and at endgame).

Kaelik wrote:So Anyone know what the compensating factor for Drow LA is?

They fucking suck.

SR even more of a joke than usual.

Can only make 28 PB Drow, you can eventually make 32 PB non drow.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:How does the classic Cleric Archer build look?

Just looking at the character builder thing, elven clerics get the lion's share of bonuses that can be used on bows. Not just with their spells, but also with enhancements, whatever they are.

Are there ways to boost your caster level? Not so much spellcasting level, but caster level. Mostly to squeeze extra bennies out of the cleric's spell list.

As for items... you seem to have a lot of slots to play with, but the prevailing problem is that a lot of those slots are going to be used for stat-boosting items. How many tomes do you get and what are the stat-boosting items displacing as far as kickassery goes?

Pathetic. Ranged sucks, and the stuff that makes CoDzilla isn't in the game.

There are not any ways to boost CL. Not that you really need to.

Stat boosting items...

Strength usually comes on belts, gloves, or bracers.
Dexterity usually comes on bracers or boots.
Constitution usually comes on belts or amulets.
Intelligence usually comes on headgear or goggles.
Wisdom usually comes on headgear or amulets.
Charisma usually comes on cloaks.

Any stat can come on rings. I might be forgetting a few possibilities. Some named items are exceptions to the rule.

For tomes, it depends. You can find +1 tomes in higher level stuff and they aren't too rare. You can sometimes get +2 tomes randomly as well. Beyond that you're dependent on raid gear. As far as anyone knows there are no +5 tomes and +4s are very rare even in raids.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Though why would you go with khopeshes? Since this character doesn't have MWP it doesn't matter whether they burn a feat for that or scimitars, but I'm just wondering what makes 19-20x3 better than 18-20x3.

How the fuck are you getting 18-20 x3? It's x2.

Also, your build is terrible, completely unworkable, and is likely so bad that it would get you blacklisted on sight by the uber players. I am not even fucking kidding.

Let me count the ways...

1: You're using a Scimitar instead of a Kophesh even though they cost the same.
2: Your Wisdom isn't maxed.
3: Is that a 32 point build? Have you even unlocked that?
4: Your Con is mother fucking EIGHT.
5: Items and enhancements do NOT qualify you for feats. Only base stats do which means starting + tomes + level up points ONLY.
6: Have I told you your Con was mother fucking EIGHT yet?

Now, Use Magic Device. If you do not have Use Magic Device at max ranks at all times your build is bad and you should feel bad. No matter what your build is this is a must have.

There are several reasons for this:

1: Many items are race restricted. If you are not the right race and cannot get your Use Magic Device check result to the listed number you cannot use these items. It is not a roll, just a check. You either have a high enough modifier or you don't. These items are often cheaper than non race restricted items and give mods 2 or more levels higher than what is normally possible, therefore UMD builds will always have better gear at any given time.

2: Some items are alignment restricted. These can be bypassed in the same way, except that the checks required are often higher.

3: Normal items you use UMD to activate. Since you don't have any sort of WBL to worry about you can make good use of these. Good endgame characters are expected to no fail Heal scrolls regardless of class. This requires you to make a DC 39 or 40 UMD check on a 1. Note that doing this requires one or two raid items for most builds.

I mean really, what the fuck else you going to do with skill points? Concentration is needed for casters, a few points in Jump is nice for anyone (just enough to get to +10, that way a Jump spell gives you the maximum possible benefit), Balance as high as possible is required to deal with knockdown effects...

Yes, Balance. The only things that kill competent players are one hit kills, and being unable to act. Knockdown effects are the main offender for the latter. Higher balance = get up faster, kill and heal faster.

Anyways, Intimidate is good for Intimidate tanks but that's about it and... fuck, that's just about all of them. Except the trap skills.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:38 pm

So after fielding those responses I figured I'd throw in a bit more.

Humans are the general purpose uber race. This is because there are no races that increase Strength or Wisdom at all, and no races that increase Dexterity, Intelligence, or Charisma that don't suck. Humans get access to an enhancement that boosts any of their stats by 1. They later get access to another that boosts any of their stats by one. Note: THIS CANNOT BE THE SAME STAT.

Suffice it to say any human has +1 to their prime stat and +1 to Con if at sufficient level.

Further, humans get an extra feat. You are taking Toughness. No, I'm not fucking kidding.

Toughness works like Toughness and Improved Toughness combined. You get extra HP equal to your level + 3. You also unlock racial Toughness enhancements. There are four in total, how many you can actually take depends on your race. Each adds 10 HP. Humans can take 3.

Level 1 human has an extra 15 HP (read: about two thirds more) on a drow.

Endgame the human is ahead by 73 or 93.

What's more, the drow will only have a better relevant modifier 50% of the time, and then only by +1. Endgame stats are in the 40s.

This is why drow are made of Fail. Elves can't even register in the competition.

Also, human versatility is made of Win and Mother Fucking Win. + (2-5, depending on tier) to (your choice of attacks, damage, saves, AC, or skills) that stacks with everything for 20 seconds that can be used 5 times per rest in any combination and I think you keep the lower tier ones and can also use those if need be = fuck yeah. Especially for those hard UMD checks. The most anyone else gets is +2-5 to ONE of those, and it costs the same as having the option to use a different one.

Dwarves are good at surviving though since they get large bonuses to saves at all times, +2 Con (can be raised further, I think), bonuses to Balance (helps against knockdown) and can get that fourth Toughness enhancement (though they'd have to spend an actual feat on Toughness, instead of getting it for free).

Warforged are also good at surviving due to all the immunities, ability to self heal if an arcane caster (even warforged sorcerers are worth it because of this, having a 42 cha instead of 44 isn't going to bother much) and because a fair bit of the endgame content is fairly warforged friendly due to a 'can't use healing spells' curse than does not affect repair spells.

Halflings are only worth it as Rogues because they get even more SA damage. Any other class, forget it. They aren't as gimped as white elves and black elves but they aren't too far off.

Course you can't play warforged without either subscribing or buying the race. Hope you like humans and dwarves.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:40 pm

1: You're using a Scimitar instead of a Kophesh even though they cost the same.
2: Your Wisdom isn't maxed.
3: Is that a 32 point build? Have you even unlocked that?
4: Your Con is mother fucking EIGHT.
5: Items and enhancements do NOT qualify you for feats. Only base stats do which means starting + tomes + level up points ONLY.
6: Have I told you your Con was mother fucking EIGHT yet?

All right. How would you fiddle with things so that my build worked?

The 18-20x3 was a typo. I meant 18-20x2, if the PHB is to be believed. Still, I don't know why 19-20x3 is better than 18-20x2. The DOT works out the same.

If it helps any, I don't mind plopping down the cheddar for 32 base stats or +2 Tomes in that damn DDO shop. Just this one time.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:40 pm

Roy,

Just so you know, we'll be picking your brains for a good while longer.

What's your thoughts on wizards?

Or are Sorcerers a lot better due to massive spell point pools, and tiny range of spells to choose from?

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:08 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Still, I don't know why 19-20x3 is better than 18-20x2. The DOT works out the same.

Does this work differently in DDO?

I thought 19-20/x3 was the equivalent of 17-20/x2, not 18.

19-20/x3 should be the same as a 10% chance to do +200% damage. 17-20/x2 should be the same as a 20% chance to do +100% damage.

18-20/x2 is only a 15% chance to co +100% damage.

...or am I missing something?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:12 pm

Whoops, I screwed up on the math. Yeah, Khopeshes are the master items.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:10 pm

I fail to see why human is better than default elf.

Human:
Bonus feat
Bonus skill
Human Versatility
+1 to two stats

Elf:
Proficiency with longswords
+2 dex
+2 more dex from enhancements
+2/+2 TH/DMG with longswords

Basically, you're going to get a lot more longsword drops you'll want to use than khopesh and elves have to blow fewer stat points to be assured of qualifying for GTWF.

Level 1 arrays (assuming you want to bump str the entire time):
Human:
14
16
12
10
14
8

Elf:
dex 13 (5)
wis 14 (4)
con 14 (6)
str 14 (6)
int 12 (4)
3 points left over.

The elf is down a feat, but that seems to be the only real downside.

I understand that humans get better peak stuff, but you're probably going to get bored with DDO long before you ever care about that peak.

Considering the feat argument:
1) TWF
3) OTWF
6) Toughness (because it's handy)
9) ITWF
and so forth

Why is vanilla elf cleric not the ideal race/class start?

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:51 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
1: You're using a Scimitar instead of a Kophesh even though they cost the same.
2: Your Wisdom isn't maxed.
3: Is that a 32 point build? Have you even unlocked that?
4: Your Con is mother fucking EIGHT.
5: Items and enhancements do NOT qualify you for feats. Only base stats do which means starting + tomes + level up points ONLY.
6: Have I told you your Con was mother fucking EIGHT yet?
All right. How would you fiddle with things so that my build worked?

The 18-20x3 was a typo. I meant 18-20x2, if the PHB is to be believed. Still, I don't know why 19-20x3 is better than 18-20x2. The DOT works out the same.

If it helps any, I don't mind plopping down the cheddar for 32 base stats or +2 Tomes in that damn DDO shop. Just this one time.

Ok, first of all CoDzilla doesn't really work there, and trying tends to tick everyone off including yourself. There certainly are awesome melee builds, but they aren't Clerics. At least not the ones that don't have a fast track to uber loot.

19-20/x3 works out to a little more DPS. The main purpose of this though is that some of the effective crowd control measures used generate auto crits. You do the math. Anything held or petrified is FUCKED with a kopesh. Not so much with a x2 crit weapon. This would be a point in favor of picks, were picks better the rest of the time. Since they aren't, exotic weapon it is.

And yeah, I forgot they added those to the store now. That makes the grind a lot less painful because you can skip it.

Wizards: They're ok, but you pretty much got it right. The number of useful spells rarely exceeds the number of available spells after scratching off the things that work just as well from scrolls like summons. There are a handful of points where you will wish you had spell x because there's four worth a damn and you can only take 3, but for the most part double casting time and roughly 50% more mana means sorc = win. However, Wizards can get higher DC save or dies since they get more feats = more room for spell focuses and I think their capstone boosts spell DCs as well. Wizards do have their merits, but overall Sorcerers are better. Not needing to adapt and all.

Now, as for elves. They lose too many fucking HP first off. At low levels it is not unusual to be critted for 30 or more. That means dead elf, and living anything else. This trait persists throughout the game, right up to traps and uber spells doing 300+ damage. Again, elves die, other races live. At least criticals won't bother you anymore since everyone is assumed to have Heavy Fort at level 11 (warforged can get Moderate Fort at 7 and be immune).

But aside from HP epic fail, no one gives a fuck about longswords since anyone intending to melee and is capable of it could probably already use them, except that they aren't because the kophesh is the master weapon. Also, dexterity is not a very good stat. About the only purpose of it is qualifying for the TWF line, except you still aren't going to do that without access to stat tomes, wasting level up points on it, or being a Ranger. And that last option is the best one because you're getting +3 damage (level 1) up to +15 damage or so (level 20) vs 80% of the game, and 99% of the game that matters at the rate of 3 + 3 per 5 levels simply by advancing as Ranger and taking the Favored Enemy: Damage enhancements.

As for gear availability, chances are most of your stuff is going to get bought off the AH to skip the randomness. And either way plain old +x items will be cheap, and weapons with special properties will either be a bit less expensive or far more expensive depending on the usefulness of the special property. When it comes right down to it, either way you're going to pay way too fucking much for that level 4 Flaming of Pure Good weapon, so why not get the good overpriced weapon?

I mean if you think I'm bullshitting you go on the DDO forums and ask them what they think of a TWF battle cleric by a new player. Don't expect it to go well though. Ironically I'm being nicer than they would despite the more lax code of conduct here and my reputation for being sadistically cruel.

Oh yeah, fun little fact about this game. Ask any of the experienced players and they'll go on about how great teaming up is and stuff. Yet at the same time the universal bar of competence is 'be self sufficient'. This is a fairly broad and somewhat subjective area, but it usually amounts to have your own healing abilities, own status curing abilities etc. In most cases it amounts to 'be able to solo this dungeon'. This makes uber grouping fucking hilarious because it's 6 or 12 people soloing together for faster completion times and more loot. But it is an amusing contradiction, since aside from that if you can completely take care of yourself what the fuck do you need a group for?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:17 pm

Yo Roy, I'm real happy for you, I'mma let you finish but you didn't address the fact that the way PB and stat requirement works encourage you to be an elf because humans have to spend too many points to get that 17 dex.

Would you mind invalidating a piece of my argument instead of ignoring it? I know you don't like to actually be coherent, but I'd like it if you could do it for me. Y'know, for old times sakes?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:01 pm

All right, let's forget TWF for a moment.

What about two-handed fighting? I heard that with with stuff like glancing blow and all that THF is comparable.

It would require less of a stat and feat investment. So we'd have something like... this:

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 16
CHA: 14

(with the +4 bonus points)

All of the level-up points go into wisdom.

Fighter 1 / Cleric 19

Feats:
1: Two-Handed Fighting, Power Attack, Toughness
3: Extend Spell
6: Quicken Spell
9: Improved Two-Handed Fighting
12: Improved Critical
15: Greater Two-Handed Fighting
18: Mental Toughness

I don't know if the khopesh can be wielded two-handed. If it can, then let's stick that in there somewhere.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:58 pm

Well... humans also see some pretty good in-game buffs.

Every race gets one or two of 5 "racial" buffs. They start at +2, and go to +5; they add to damage, skill checks, saves, AC, or attack rolls.

Humans get all of them each time they buy the new rank. Other races get one or two of those as choices. Sometimes it's something like Elves: +1 damage with one or two kinds of weapons or +1 to ref saves.

Basically large passive, bullshit, racial bonuses. Halfings get stuff to boost their throwing by +1 damage, or their fear saves by +1.

Humans get a 5 point pool that gives a buff that lasts 20 seconds (aka, one big fight, but not a protracted one). This buffs adds +2 and up to +5 to one of several choices that the player can make. Those choices include: attack rolls, damage roll, AC, saves, skill checks.

So, an elf will have up to +4 or something to his longsword swings "all the time" (aka, you don't really care, since Khopeshes are the way to go at end-game); while the human has 5 20 second buffs that they can use on "whatever" they want.

If I was playing say... a human fighter; I could see that ability (bonus to attack rolls, or damage, or AC) being useful, and I'd be able to choose which buff I pick each time I use the buff.

From what I'm seeing, humans, drow, dwarves and warforged are races considered in the top tier. Halflings only qualify if they're rogues. Elves don't seem to cut the mustard, and Drow are often discounted as sorcerer/wizards b/c of their frailty for an increase of only +1 (over humans) or +2 (over warforged) for DCs.

Seriously, people think that WF sorcerers are good; and they're sort of right, a WF sorc can heal themselves with their spells; spend ranks on the repair skill, and this be able to last a longer time on their own.

I think that playing a warforged character is slightly more challenging, because not everyone can heal them, and cleric healing fails on them. Only a wiz/sorc line of spells can heal warforged.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:15 am

JE, don't be retarded. I'll lay it out for you:

Elves get +2 to hit and damage with longswords.
Humans get +5 to hit, but not damage with anything for 20 seconds a few times between shrines.

Humans have better peak attacks. They totally do. They have lower base TH/DMG (remember, the elf with the same hp has more str than an equivalent TWF human) and in a lot of the dungeons you'll only get 1 or maybe two shrines in the entire thing with 8-16 distinctly spaced apart groups of enemies you have to kill.

Khopeshes have slightly better crit. Watch me care. For most of the game you'll probably get dropped better equipment than you can buy in the auction house.

At the end of the tutorial dungeon my elf was given a flaming longsword. I have yet to see a better weapon come my way. That's a seriously large reward for using a common type of weapon.

Elves are *numerically superior* to humans whenever the human does not have Human Versatility up boosting TH or damage. Frankly, you're going to have the human fighting stuff without HV up more often than not. This means the elf grinds and levels quicker and loses fewer resources on trash mobs allowing more resources to be spent on the big mobs (clerics do have buffs).

Seriously, tell me where I'm wrong. I'd love to hear the hole in my logic.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:37 am

Two additional things:

1) I heard that Divine Favor got capped at +3 rather than +6. That's a kick in the scrotum.

2) I'm not sure whether you can make a human or an elven TWFer work. That lack of constitution really, really hurts. It'd seems like you would have to invest in AC instead. Unfortunately, I've heard that the only good way to get AC would be to take a level of monk and get one of those monkly armors. Which necessitates a caster-level hit (or two, I've heard evasion is beastly). sigh.

3) If DDO TWFing is anything like 3.0E TWFing, Power Attack is pretty much mandatory. Opinion?

Ultimately, I'm not looking to remake CoDzilla. I want a competent melee DPR-person who happens to have a variety of nice secondary schticks.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:01 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Two additional things:

1) I heard that Divine Favor got capped at +3 rather than +6. That's a kick in the scrotum.

The compendium doesn't show it being capped at anything, but that would suck if it was capped at +3 considering that the only other buff of note is divine power (no righteous might).

2) I'm not sure whether you can make a human or an elven TWFer work. That lack of constitution really, really hurts. It'd seems like you would have to invest in AC instead. Unfortunately, I've heard that the only good way to get AC would be to take a level of monk and get one of those monkly armors. Which necessitates a caster-level hit (or two, I've heard evasion is beastly). sigh.

Bear in mind that your hit points are 20+max for the hit die at every level+con*levels+toughness bonuses.

I'm running around with a 12 con cleric right now and my only deaths have been on the elite dungeons (where I stand back and just heal spam on people that have better DPS than my sword and board) when I've been caught alone and outnumbered or there was a TPK.

3) If DDO TWFing is anything like 3.0E TWFing, Power Attack is pretty much mandatory. Opinion?

Sort of. I figure it's something that's worth picking up since damage boosts from class seem to be fairly slim.

Ultimately, I'm not looking to remake CoDzilla. I want a competent melee DPR-person who happens to have a variety of nice secondary schticks.

Totally.