Round 2, let the flames begin: Technomancer.

hound · Post by **hound** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:18 pm

I did a forum search for technomancer stuffs and came up very minimally successful. My DM uses RAW mentality. He'll expound on a rule but not change them.

This is what I came up with, with some french made char gen... advice, criticism and blatant shooting down requested and welcomed. btw, this is my first go at a technomancer.

Metatype : Human
Technomancer

Attributes
Body: 3
Agility: 3
Reaction: 2
Strength: 2
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 5
Logic: 5
Willpower: 5

Edge: 4
Resonance: 5
Initiative: 7
Essence: 6

Knowledge Skills
: N
Security Design : 5
Security Procedures : 2
Security Systems : 5
Computer Background : 2
Matrix Security : 2
Economics : 2
Security Companies : 2
Matrix Games : 1
Economics : 1
Engineering : 1
Military (Marines) : 5

Active Skills
Cybercombat : 3
Electronic Warfare : 3
Hacking : 3
Compiling (Fault) : 5
Registering : 5
Dodge : 4
Pistols : 1

Positive Qualities
Natural Hardening
Photographic Memory

Negative Qualities
Compulsive 2
Prejudiced 4

Weapons
Savalette Guardian

Armors
Clothing (Regular)
Armor Jacket

Vehicles
Lone Star iBall-Off (Minidrone)

Commlinks
Commlink : Meta Link

Equipments
Certified Credstick (Ebony)
Tool Kit

Complex forms
Smartlink (1)
Shield (5)
Stealth (5)
Exploit (5)
Black Hammer (5)
Biofeedback Filters (5)
Command (5)
Attack (5)
Track (5)
Scan (5)

Sprites

Contacts
Lev Weivel (L:3 C:3)
Kor's contact and agent for his freelance 'computer repair' gig. Under the table, specializing in securing and building computer networks for the security if not legally minded folks of Seatle.

Contacts
Sue Weivel (L:2 C:2)
Uses her father's contacts to hire hackers and info thieves.

shau · Post by **shau** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:40 pm

I honestly don't know how to build a good technomancer, but running around with pistols 1 agility 3 for about 4 combat dice is not acceptable. That's almost at the point where you are more of a danger to your teammates than the enemy.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:17 am

Unless the character fights using drones or not directly at all. Technomancer is a hacker-type, and if you aren't playing a houseruled game, I seem to recall that there's very little keeping hackers from just staying at home and doing their Matrix-stuff remotely.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:13 am

That's pretty much the case as far as combat goes. Played a Technomancer last SR campaign I was in - combat proficiency was entirely extraneous, I seriously got along with Pistols 1 and Agility 2. This did not involve noticeably being a drag on the team in any way, and having Pistols at all ended up being pretty much flavor text. If you want to blast people's damage tracks, you can just pick up Black Hammer or Blackout as a CF (or compile a Rating 6 Paladin sprite to mind crush some fools).

Really, as the Matrix expert on the team, you should focus first on covering what they don't have covered. Since in the other thread it sounds like you have a Rigger and people who can handle smashing, that probably means things like Matrix security, actual Hacking-hacking, and spoofing cameras. Some of that you can totally just have sprites in reserve and call them up if you need something broken into.

Sprites are what you do - presumably why you aren't a cybered or adept hacker - so you definitely want Crack and Machine sprites from the basic book. The other three are either very situational (you might or might not get value out of a Data or Courier sprite) or aren't set out to be remotely capable of what they're supposed to (Fault sprites don't have Analyze, so they can't actually see anyone to use their Attack CF on). Since you have a Rigger the Machine sprites are just backup, but what the heck, they actually do something, it couldn't hurt to have them just in case.

From Unwired, Code sprites are good for encryption/decryption tasks and can handle Data Search tasks you don't want to spend time on. Paladin sprites are good for Matrix defense, and potentially attack icons or dudes with commlinks if they're Rating 6 or above (Analyze + Attack or Blackout). Since they're the only ones that are actually capable of doing that... well... you get the picture.

You'll want a stable of registered sprites to handle things. You'll want to do this during downtime, but it doesn't cost any Karma or anything to register them (unlike magicians). This is limited by your Charisma, so you might want that higher if a maximum of 4 sprites doesn't suffice for you.

Aside from what your sprites do, you'll also want to check that you personally can cover most of the areas of Matrix ops that your Rigger bud doesn't.

hound · Post by **hound** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:15 am

Unfortunately, I'm not sure we're going to have the rigger... he's wishy washy'ing between rigger and heavy weapons.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:20 am

Ah. In that case, Machine sprites are a definite yes, and you probably want to have a high-Rating one reg'd to get the van when you're in a tight spot.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:31 am

Obviously, I am personally so opposed to the as-written Matrix rules that I wrote a 62 page manuscript about how shitty they were. But they can be used so long as no one understands them very well. Actually learning how Matrix topology "works" brings only sadness - all hacking vulnerabilities are totally optional, and workarounds generally cost 100Y or less. Many are simply preferences ("Set Being Hacked = No").

One of the biggest annoying things the rules do that actual players of the game do not is what I call the "Rendering Phase" - that is whenever people go into a Node hey have to wait until all the icons render before they can do anything. Game mechanically this is done by running an Analyze test at one Simple Action per icon in the entire fucking node, and then you get "one piece of information per hit" and each test is seriously opposed by stealth checks. So you're actually supposed to walk into a node and be told that there are 51 nodes and then have you spend 1-12 Simple Actions on each one before you can start shooting. No one does that, because it's incredibly time consuming and retarded.

What people actually do is make a single Matrix Perception extended test each round until they accumulate a number of hits equal to the Stealth value of each relevant opponent. But of course, even then it basically means that if you can't make Matrix Perception tests at all (because you are, for example, a Fault Sprite), that you lose at life. An it means that if you have a stupid high Stealth that you basically get to beat on your opponents for several rounds unopposed.

-Username17

hound · Post by **hound** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:43 am

That makes me feel better about having stupid high stealth.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:55 am

One of the things that I've noticed about the Shadowrun hacking rules is that--unlike the Shadowrun magic rules--people who don't pursue a career in hacking tend to be completely ignorant about even the basics.

Is this a bug? Or was this intentional?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:12 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:One of the things that I've noticed about the Shadowrun hacking rules is that--unlike the Shadowrun magic rules--people who don't pursue a career in hacking tend to be completely ignorant about even the basics.

Is this a bug? Or was this intentional?

Bug. It's a combination of incoherent writing and horrendously poorly managed topology. I mean fuck, it's all described in terms of walking through digital mazes, ducking through data stores and hiding behind floating Arrows. But none of that shit actually happens, because you are either locationally in a shared space (in which case you are in melee range) or you are not (in which case you are not). The metaphor doesn't match the mechanics at all.

And some of the mechanics are written as if the metaphor was going on.

I mean fuck, This is an example of he actual head dev on Unwired shooting his mouth off about crazy bullshit. If the actual developer can't wrap his mind around what an Agent is and does, how do you think the writing translates this information to anyone else?

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:22 pm

What I was trying to get at is whether the fact that 3/4ths of a Shadowrun group can be ignorant of a large portion of the rules but still have the game otherwise function as if they did know is a good thing or a bad thing.

In Shadowrun, even if you're not awakened you still need to at least know the basics about the magic system to get an edge. But I've found that if you don't plan to do anything with hacking other than delegate it to the hacker/rigger/technomancer you're not that worse off than if you actually read all of those damn rules as long as you take incredible basic precautions.

shau · Post by **shau** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:14 pm

I'm pretty sure nobody actually plays the matrix rules by the rules. It pretty much comes down to players who want to use the matrix read them and GMs read them and then on game day they both discuss their interpretations of the rules and try to come to some sort of consensus on how they think hacking should work.

Hell, on the Dumpshock forums they tried to do a sample matrix run as sort of an example of how these are supposed to go. They never reached the end of the run due to all the rule questions and confusion. I think the last group I played with basically just reduced everything to a single roll.

Decker: "Is there a computer in that thing?"
GM: "I think so."
Decker: "Is it on the matrix?"
GM: "Sure."
Decker: "I computer that thing."
GM: "Roll your computer skill."

Frank, you are of the few people I know who understands the rules. How long does it take to get to the point of dropping someone with hacking, assuming they did not set their equipment to fuck off hacker?

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:36 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:What I was trying to get at is whether the fact that 3/4ths of a Shadowrun group can be ignorant of a large portion of the rules but still have the game otherwise function as if they did know is a good thing or a bad thing.

That is where the infamous NPC decker comes in. Since that guy also featured heavily in all previous versions of the game no one even notices decking does not work. That is expected. Coherent decking rules would be hailed as the second coming or christ (or vilified as breaking the setting, take your pick).

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:06 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: What people actually do is make a single Matrix Perception extended test each round until they accumulate a number of hits equal to the Stealth value of each relevant opponent. But of course, even then it basically means that if you can't make Matrix Perception tests at all (because you are, for example, a Fault Sprite), that you lose at life. An it means that if you have a stupid high Stealth that you basically get to beat on your opponents for several rounds unopposed.

Yeah I've always played it that once you attack someone, you can no longer stealth people.

Since stealth flavor wise doesn't make you invisible, it just causes your icon to blend. People can still detect it, it just looks like something else. But once you attack someone pretty much they should know which icon did it. Even if it originally looked like just some inconsequential datapacket.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:20 am

RC wrote:Since stealth flavor wise doesn't make you invisible, it just causes your icon to blend. People can still detect it, it just looks like something else. But once you attack someone pretty much they should know which icon did it. Even if it originally looked like just some inconsequential datapacket.

The thing is: that's not true. The Attack Program is its own icon and can apear separately from your own icon. There's no more reason why they should (by the official rules and topology) be able to tell whose icon the attack is being controlled by than they should be able to see what drones you have subscribed by looking at your persona. It's a Trace test to find the icon on the other end. And you got it - it's opposed by Stealth.

But yeah, that's an example of things that the rules do that people don't do. No one actually bothers to do the thing where every fucking program you have running is a separate icon and all enemies have to analyze each in turn until they find out which one is worth attacking. That's crazy and people do not do it.

shau wrote:How long does it take to get to the point of dropping someone with hacking, assuming they did not set their equipment to fuck off hacker?

Official rules? Quite a while.

I assume for the moment that we're talking about another hacker. And for some reason, no one is Agent Smithing it. Here's the flow chart:

Both of you are in the same node and aware that you aren't alone. This is actually a huge concession, because while you could read the rules to say that you automatically get to know that are new icons in the node, the segment probably actually means that you simply get a free Matrix Perception test to notice the other guy appearing in the node. And it's also possible that this isn't even an opposed test, but merely a test with a threshold equal to the actual rating of the other guy's Stealth. With the unfortunate side affect that no one would ever engage in matrix combat at all because it's effectively impossible. But fuck it, we're assuming that everyone gets the icon list for free.
Anyone who was here first pretty much automatically wins, because every node apparently has like 40-100 irrelevant icons and each one of them may take an action or more to render and discount. Each hacker comes equipped with what is essentially a mirror image for every program they are running. For a battle hacker, that will be four or five. But here's the cool part: they get another mirror image icon for every program they are running, and there is no limit to how many unrated programs they can run. So technically they can have hundreds or thousands of copies of Miracle Shooter, and then people have to win an opposed test (Computer + Analyze vs. Firewall/Hacking + Stealth) as a Simple Action to find out whether each image individually is in fact a Persona that is worth actually attacking. But even assuming that they (for no reason) don't do that, you're basically looking at needing to win an average of about 3 opposed tests before you find their actual Persona (you still haven't identified that they are necessarily even an enemy, but we'll assume from context that you happen to know that any other hacker in the area is automatically an opponent). Well, you have a slightly less than 50% chance of winning that test, because the enemy dice pool is at least the size of yours, and you lose ties - but sure we'll handwave it down to just 3 full Complex actions to find the target. For the guy who was already camping the node of course - you can add like 20-100 SAs for the newcomer to render all the native stuff in the node before he gets to randomly find the enemy hacker.
Now that one of the guys found the other, it's brutal but frankly boring as snot. Here's how it works: You generate normal combat rounds, including rolling up your initiative (mysteriously lower than meat initiative, but whatever), then you make a series of Attacks. It's very poorly laid out, but a Matrix attack is a Complex Fucking Action. It basically has a less than 50% chance of landing, because you need to get more hits on an Attack + Cybercombat test than the target gets on a free Response + Firewall test. The target can also sacrifice one Complex Action a round to add their Hacking to the defense rolls. Seriously. Once the attack hits, the target is in for some genuine matrix damage. They take Attack Rating + Net Hits in base damage, and they can soak that down. The base Attack rating is generally 4 to 6 (usually 5), and you probably only got 1 or 2 net hits when you hit at all. Then the soak is System + Armor, so they are looking at like a 10 die soak.

TL;DR: You probably don't hit, and when you do hit your average damage is 3 boxes.

So Basically the ambushing guy takes an an entire combat round to render his opponent, and then he takes an average of about 3 rounds of attacking in order to actually drop the target from the Matrix. Note: not 3 Complex Actions, 3 combat rounds. The average number of dice rolls involved is: 18 rolls for the attacker / 21 rolls for the defender.

No idea why anyone thought this was a good idea.

-Username17

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:15 am

FrankTrollman wrote: The thing is: that's not true. The Attack Program is its own icon and can apear separately from your own icon. There's no more reason why they should (by the official rules and topology) be able to tell whose icon the attack is being controlled by than they should be able to see what drones you have subscribed by looking at your persona. It's a Trace test to find the icon on the other end. And you got it - it's opposed by Stealth.

I always assumed that programs just bound to your icon, not that they were icons of their own. Though rereading the rules, I honestly have no idea. After reading the matrix rules numerous times, I'm still finding out new stuff about it.

The perception tests always had me confused too. Another big question in my mind is that if you had say a multinode architecture, where there was a corporate gateway node (that had matrix access) which could connect to a bunch of other nodes, how did you actually detect those nodes? Was it a scan test that basically worked like detecting nodes within range of your own link, you just used the node that you hacked? Or were you basically forced to rely on using provided portals that the system gave you (in which case you'd have to analyze them each individually). If so, how much information could you get about these nodes, aside from access ID? If for instance I was hacking into Aztechnology, and I wanted to get from their basic gateway to the marketing data, how would I go about doing that?

Also there's something where you can set your analyze program to autoscan new icons or something... what exactly does that tell you about icons if you succeed?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:50 am

RC2 wrote:The perception tests always had me confused too. Another big question in my mind is that if you had say a multinode architecture, where there was a corporate gateway node (that had matrix access) which could connect to a bunch of other nodes, how did you actually detect those nodes? Was it a scan test that basically worked like detecting nodes within range of your own link, you just used the node that you hacked? Or were you basically forced to rely on using provided portals that the system gave you (in which case you'd have to analyze them each individually). If so, how much information could you get about these nodes, aside from access ID? If for instance I was hacking into Aztechnology, and I wanted to get from their basic gateway to the marketing data, how would I go about doing that?

Checking out node architecture is mysteriously a different perception action than analyzing individual icons. You use the Analyze Node action that is exactly the same as the Analyze Icon action except that it has a different name. Every hit gives you the answer to one question, so knowing how many exits there are is one hit, knowing anything about any of them is one more hit for each exit. It can take a long time and a lot of perception tests to get any meaningful information about the architecture around you.

RC wrote:Also there's something where you can set your analyze program to autoscan new icons or something... what exactly does that tell you about icons if you succeed?

In SR4A it's the Observe in Detail action. Again, different from Analyze Node for no discernible reason or gain. It tells you about every icon in the node that isn't stealthed in list form. Actually getting any info on any of them (such as whether they are a program or a persona) requires you to analyze them individually. And presumably it allows you to make an opposed perception vs. Stealth test to discover the existence of stealthed icons, but that's seriously unclear.

-Username17

hound · Post by **hound** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:04 am

so... what i'm reading is either we need to houserule or I need to prepare to take a lot of game time trying to attack/defend hackers/systems. Roger.

Any hints or advice? criticism on the above build?

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:08 am

Don;t make a technomancer.

biggest advice when making a hacker: Sit down with the GM in advance. Ask him how he thinks it works.

Because it's pretty much impossible to advise you on what to expect because the rules are so badly written there is no consistency from game to game. I never play a hacker with a new group because it is just too risky.

hound · Post by **hound** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:09 am

fair enough. Thanks.

I'll have a sit with my GM then and see what's what.