Pathfinder: the Lowdown

[Treantmonklvl20]

Correct Party roles will make "picking someone else" difficult in many situations.

Big: able to take hits
Stupid: Makes himself a target to protect others
Fighter: Can deliver a hit.

Hold on now, if Ubernoob can't assume a wide open field for all spells to work perfectly, you don't get to assume that the fighter can effectively make himself a target in any situation where he can't essentially force the monsters to attack him..

Agreed. This is why I qualified it with "many situations" I was just pointing out that buffing the fighter doesn't always mean the enemy can just switch targets.

Sometimes it does, in those cases, certainly, the buff to the fighter isn't really of value, unless you want the enemy to switch targets for some reason.

I can't ever say with any spell "use this in every combat" because every combat is different, with all kinds of different situational considerations.

So, basically, I agree with your point, but I wasn't looking to have it the other way either, I was merely pointing out a variable.

Now, on this polymorph to a plant thing for the immunity to mind-affecting magic, are you assuming the DM lets you continue to cast spells in that form? If so, why?

I am making that assumption, as far as I know, you can cast as long as you have the ability, and can perform all the components of the spell (verbal, somantic, material). So if you have a mouth that can speak, and arms and hands, and a component pouch or eschew materials - you should be OK.

This precludes alot of forms, but a Treant should still be OK.

Different DM's may rule this differently though...they could rule that the treant doesn't have enough fine manipulation ability with their hands or something. Never hurts to check with your DM beforehand.

I'm genuinely puzzled here. I don't dispute that you can do it, I'm just wondering why you'd bother.

How about an example?

You are in combat. The enemy caster begins to cast. You complete your spellcraft roll and determine he is casting "feeblemind". You cast Celerity, then Polymorph (Treant), his spell bounces off harmlessly.

There are other things you could do, but this works effectively anyways.

OR

Cast it on an ally who has already been hit with said affect. This will eliminate the effect.

Does that help?

[Kaelik]

You are in combat. The enemy caster begins to cast. You complete your spellcraft roll and determine he is casting "feeblemind". You cast Celerity, then Polymorph (Treant), his spell bounces off harmlessly.

You are in combat. The enemy caster begins to cast. You complete your spellcraft roll and determine he is casting "feeblemind." You cast Celerity, then Polymorph Treat, he changes his target to someone else, someone else is feebleminded, and you are stunned.

Alternatively, after Celerity you could have cast Magic Missile, and that would have actaully stopped him from casting the spell.

Congratulations. Polymorph < Magic Missile.

[IGTN]

Don't interrupting actions come in after the target is declared? i.e., if you have a bow and make an attack with it, but someone next to you is invisible, and they AoO you, you can't change your target to them after they make their attack.

So the Celerity interrupt would work.

[Treantmonklvl20]

Don't interrupting actions come in after the target is declared? i.e., if you have a bow and make an attack with it, but someone next to you is invisible, and they AoO you, you can't change your target to them after they make their attack.

So the Celerity interrupt would work.

The rules are not explicit. Depends on the interpretation of your DM.

The magic missile trick will work in some circumstances - personally, I would never bet my character's life on it as there are way too many circumstances where it wouldn't (bad time to find out enemy has SR, or has a pumped up concentration score, or is a vampire (or anything with no Con score), or has spell turning, or a rod of absorption, or...well, you get the idea.). My recommendation is, if you are willing to use a Celerity to interrupt, use something that will work every time. Giving yourself immunity to the spell is one of those things.

And yes, I would much rather the feeblemind hit anyone else in the group but me. Call me selfish, but I would. I can fix them next action.

and despite the implication of the post, you would be dazed after casting magic missile too. (we assume he meant "Daze" not "stun" - pretty much the same anyways). Not that the daze means much when you are likely feebleminded too.

[Kaelik]

Don't interrupting actions come in after the target is declared? i.e., if you have a bow and make an attack with it, but someone next to you is invisible, and they AoO you, you can't change your target to them after they make their attack.

So the Celerity interrupt would work.

The rules are not explicit. Depends on the interpretation of your DM.

The magic missile trick will work in some circumstances - personally, I would never bet my character's life on it as there are way too many circumstances where it wouldn't (bad time to find out enemy has SR, or has a pumped up concentration score, or is a vampire (or anything with no Con score), or has spell turning, or a rod of absorption, or...well, you get the idea.). My recommendation is, if you are willing to use a Celerity to interrupt, use something that will work every time. Giving yourself immunity to the spell is one of those things.

And yes, I would much rather the feeblemind hit anyone else in the group but me. Call me selfish, but I would. I can fix them next action.

and despite the implication of the post, you would be dazed after casting magic missile too. (we assume he meant "Daze" not "stun" - pretty much the same anyways). Not that the daze means much when you are likely feebleminded too.

Oh, so Feeblemind is no save now? Good to know. I thought it was that one in the PHB with a will save, the kind you make accidentally without trying.

Also, I like how your total lack of rules knowledge about certain things, like how vampires and undead and constructs still have to make Con checks to cast spells, manages to insert itself into your rebuke of other peoples lack of rules knowledge.

But sure, go ahead and pretend that someone having SR you can't beat or casting 9th level spells at level 12 is more likely than you making a save.

And of course you claim that you are going to fix them next round? Even though you are dazed? Were you going to fix them by casting Polymorph then?

So now we have 2 4th level spells accomplishing about as much as one first level spell.

Yeah, you sure are the bomb.

[violence in the media]

Ok, that's an example. But why am I going to use 2 spells to stop 1 spell? Why am I not going to just take him out with my second spell, as Kaelik suggested? Why am I not just going to rely on my +a lot Will save and the extreme likelihood that his save DC is rubbish, even with the -4 penalty to me, and just ignore the effect? I'd be making a save against an effective DC 22? 24? What if I don't have the Celerity spell available?

[Treantmonklvl20]

Ok, that's an example. But why am I going to use 2 spells to stop 1 spell? Why am I not going to just take him out with my second spell, as Kaelik suggested? Why am I not just going to rely on my +a lot Will save and the extreme likelihood that his save DC is rubbish, even with the -4 penalty to me, and just ignore the effect? I'd be making a save against an effective DC 22? 24? What if I don't have the Celerity spell available?

Use 2 spells to stop 1 spell because if you eat that spell and fail your save, you're done.

It comes down to how many chances you are willing to take...

Kaelic suggesting taking your chances on a -4 Willpower save "that you make in your sleep" I think says more than I ever could. Roll the d20, and if you roll bad, you lose...if you save on, say a 5, then you've got a 25% chance to be effectively eliminated.

Even if you save on a 2, you are still much better to avoid the save if possible. 5% will catch up with you eventually. Depending on your importance to the party, this could even cause a TPK - when it was completely avoidable. It's not about how fast you win the combat, it's how you manage the combat while you are in it.

This will be my last post for a few days. Have a busy weekend: packing/moving/unpacking. Any posts directed to me I'll read either Mon or Tues and respond at that time.

[Kaelik]

Kaelic

For fucks sake. This isn't Rocket Science. It's copy and fucking paste.

suggesting taking your chances on a -4 Willpower save "that you make in your sleep" I think says more than I ever could. Roll the d20, and if you roll bad, you lose...if you save on, say a 5, then you've got a 25% chance to be effectively eliminated.

Even if you save on a 2, you are still much better to avoid the save if possible. 5% will catch up with you eventually. Depending on your importance to the party, this could even cause a TPK - when it was completely avoidable. It's not about how fast you win the combat, it's how you manage the combat while you are in it.

So suddenly now save or dies are a huge fucking deal? Earlier they sucked to cast. Changed your mind?

Seriously, wtf, it's a will save, you are a level 12 Wizard. You have saving throws of like +14 if you didn't PrC at all and have a Wisdom of 8. If you have keen intellect, or you are one of those builds that need some wisdom, you have +lots more.

It's a 25% chance your are out of the fight. And your solution is to give a 100% chance of not being in the fight for the next round and waste two 4th level slots? Guess what happens next round? Another 25% chance you are removed from the fight.

You aren't saving yourself from anything. You are giving up your standard action to force him to attack someone else for one round.

You know how you can deal with someone casting feeblemind much better? Cast Wings of Cover. You are bringing Celerity into this, so why not spell acquisition tricks.

But even if you do want to use Celerity because you aren't willing to risk the 25% chance of losing, you know what you can do? Cast Feeblemind with that standard action. That way they have a 25% chance of being removed from the fight.

Why is spending a full round and two 4th level spells worth negating a spell that you had a 75% chance of not being hurt at all by?

You get hit with a different spell next round, so you don't even save anything. You don't even waste his standard action, since he gets to target it on someone else.

If your problem is that you can't do math, so you think that spending spell slots like candy because you aren't happy with a 75% chance of surviving, so you'd rather have a 0% chance by wasting your standard action, that's your problem. You need to learn math, and except that taking a 25% chance of losing now is worth a 50% chance of him losing after you pass the first save.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that never in any game have you used celerity to cast polymorph on yourself to avoid a feeblemind, or you would have discovered what a bad idea it was next round as a stunned Treant eating an enervation in the face.

[Starmaker]

Why is spending a full round and two 4th level spells worth negating a spell that you had a 75% chance of not being hurt at all by?

fixed

[Fuchs]

One minor point: A spell that can cover many situations is preferable to a bunch of spells that can cover one situation each. I'd rather have polymorph prepared than water breathing, energy immunity, fly, change self, etc.

[ubernoob]

Treant, I'm gunna try to make this very simple. Here's your post from page 26:

So, for example, if I were to suggest that a core 3.5 wizard would want Polymorph and Evard's Black Tentacles as their primary two spells when 4th level spells became available - you could name two other spells they could take in Pathfinder of equivalent value as the originals before Pathfinder nerfing.

Here's what Kaelik had to say about polymorph on the next page:

I think you might be confused. Polymorph is not dirty because it is too powerful. It is dirty because it is ass. Saying Polymorph is a powerful 4th level spell in 3.5 is being stupid. Polymorph is a terribly not powerful spell that tricks people into doing stupid things.

Shapechange, sure, PaO, yes. Polymorph? Ass.

Here's what I said later:

Actual Polymorph (the 4th level spell, not the 2nd, 5th, 8th, or 9th version) sucks. It's an issue of action cost at the level you get it.

I play transmutation domain wizards all the time (required to prep polymorph). I almost NEVER cast it and NEVER cast it in combat.

Here's what you said a bit later:

All that matters is that polymorph isn't something you are willing to spend a standard action on because you almost always have a better action.

Who needs a standard action? If I want to cast it swift I'll use my belt of battle.

And yet later:

I'm genuinely puzzled here. I don't dispute that you can do it, I'm just wondering why you'd bother.

How about an example?

You are in combat. The enemy caster begins to cast. You complete your spellcraft roll and determine he is casting "feeblemind". You cast Celerity, then Polymorph (Treant), his spell bounces off harmlessly.

Now, do you see the point where you started being retarded? It's right about page 28.

Edit: Forgot you're a BG/WotC guy. I'm implying that you're being retarded because you're shifting the goalposts and not addressing my argument at all. Just figured I should edit that in so you know I'm not just trying to make you cry or some shit like that.

[Kaelik]

One minor point: A spell that can cover many situations is preferable to a bunch of spells that can cover one situation each. I'd rather have polymorph prepared than water breathing, energy immunity, fly, change self, etc.

I'd rather have Overland Flight, Energy Immunity, Mindblank, Water Breathing (Really Heart of Water, but whatever).

Because those are all day long spells instead of single fight spells.

So at the cost of 7 spells I can be immune to all elements, breath in water, and fly. And I can do this all the time. And I don't have to waste a spell just to get over a chasm, and I don't have to spend my standard action at the beginning of each fight getting whatever it is that I think I need.

Mindblank isn't an 8th level spell because it's so awesome that 1 minute per level is worth anything. It's an 8th level spell because it's a Persisted 2nd level spell.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Polymorph self is just another buff that isn't usually useful when cast in combat, but works great when cast before hand. The HP, save, and AC boosts alone can make it worthwhile. It's also a good spell for sorcerers who don't want to bother picking up all of the random utility spells. And it's a great spell if you want to boost the barbarian rather than slapping down an acidic solid fog.

[TOZ]

So the Bestiary is out. I've done a little skimming through it. Haven't taken the time to fully compare it to 3.5 versions. I did notice some monsters lost certain special abilities. The bulette no longer instantly digests anyone (I think it doesn't even get swallow whole anymore). Anyone else had a chance to look it over?

Comparing PDFs now. So far I'm noticing an increase in special ability DCs and hit points. Liking the one-two page layout per monster. Much easier to reference than the Monster Manual sprawl.

[Taleran]

How is the PDF itself? because the Pathfinder one seems like a mess of JBIG2 images and broken bookmarks that link like shit

[TOZ]

Haven't explored the bookmarks indepth, but the few I have worked fine.

Also have to correct myself about the bulette, my memory was wrong. No special abilities were changed. Seems like other monsters have lost Swallow Whole, and I thought Improved Grab went away, but it's just apart of the CMB option now.

[Username17]

Seems like other monsters have lost Swallow Whole, and I thought Improved Grab went away, but it's just apart of the CMB option now.

So you're saying Improved Grab went away then.

-Username17

[TOZ]

So you're saying Improved Grab went away then.

-Username17

Exactly. I have to actually sit down and compare number to number to see if the monsters actually have an advantage CMwise or if they're equally unlikely to do anything to PCs as the PCs are to them CMwise. But I won't do that until I have both books in front of me. Too much staring at a computer screen already.

[Psychic Robot]

Aw, man. T-rexes deserve Swallow Whole.

[TOZ]

*checks* That bookmark works, and T-Rex still has Swallow Whole.

[Username17]

Aw, man. T-rexes deserve Swallow Whole.

T-Rex was ruined by the 3.5 nerf to the monster manual. In the 3e Monster Manual, bites did a basically arbitrary amount of damage (if you were not a dragon). And T-Rex did an ass tonne of damage with his giant fucking mouth of death.

In the 3.5 Monster Manual, they decided that things should do standardized damage by natural weapon and size. So T-Rex does the same amount of damage as a giant tiger except that he doesn't get claws and rakes and shit because he's just a big mouth. So his damage became pitiful. Instead of doing damage equal to an attack routine from a monster in his CR range with one giant bite, he does an amount of damage with his bite equal to any other animal his size with a bite attack. Lame!

The 3.5 T-Rex is so crap that you can hold him off by having the Cleric dump cure spells to negate his damage. That is why you've never seen anyone throwing around T-Rexes as a serious thing in 3.5 adventures.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

What are the new T-rex's feats? The 3.5 version has Toughness three times, Dropping two of those and taking Vital Strike/Improved Vital Strike would let the T-rex do decent damage as a standard action.

[TOZ]

Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Diehard, Endurance,
Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run,
Skill Focus (Perception)

Also, its bite does 4d6+22 now. (Thanks to Powerful Bite doubling his STR to damage.) But his HP dropped from 180 to 153.

I imagine they didn't choose Vital Strike because it 'requires trainings with swordz an stuffz'.

[Psychic Robot]

Boo. The DM should dump Run and Skill Focus: Perception in favor of the Vital Strike line. If you're going to use a T-rex, you might as well make it memorable.

[hogarth]

Seems like other monsters have lost Swallow Whole, and I thought Improved Grab went away, but it's just apart of the CMB option now.

Huh? I thought they just renamed "Improved Grab" as "Grab".