Social Benefits of Education

[tzor]

An ASA-400 doesn't answer queries about how it "feels", only about its tables. and such.

True, but programming a HAL 9000 often requires you to deal with the computer's emotional baggage.

[shadzar]

An ASA-400 doesn't answer queries about how it "feels", only about its tables. and such.

True, but programming a HAL 9000 often requires you to deal with the computer's emotional baggage.

That is when you ask Elaine for a bobby-pin and take Sunny Bono's briefcase and give it to HAL as a present.

[shadzar]

So fuck yourself, if you want people to be that inattentive to what they are doing. Remember that plumber coming to fix your pipes gets paid by the hour, so you want them to chat instead of work right? I mean it is only costing you $75 per hour for them to be there, so it doesn't matter to you if they are working or chatting right? And we all know plumbers ONLY chat about the work they are doing right?

You're missing an option: when the plumber goes home at the end of fixing someone's sink, is it preferable for them to be a cannibalistic couch potato, munching potato chips and parked in front of the TV, or do you want them to actually be interested in something - be it volunteering, taking a child outside to play, expanding their knowledge base into business management so they can own their plumbing business, gardening, checking out bibliographies at the library, etc?

I may not ever know what the plumber likes to do outside of work because their focus is on their work, but as a voter in a democratic society, I know I'd rather imagine that plumber doing something other than just plumbing, eating, and sleeping.

True, but I am not paying for that.

I would rather people not go to bars and sports events that take up enough space to house the same number of people that visit them all year round, or plant the space with food that people could eat, but you sure as hell don't see them doing that.

When the plumber is working on my pipes, he should be fixing it not charging me for labor to sit on his ass like a mechanic does. I also don't know that I would want the plumbers I know to be helping any kids, except their own because that is their job as a parent.

So when at work I expect him to work. When at home, that is for his family and immediate neighbors to make sure he isn't the next Jeffry Dauhmer, because I won't know a thing about him outside of work.

Also in this day and age gardening is hard to do and my plumber wishes he could...but outside of houseplants due to living in an apartment, and the laws about what can be planted in your yard around here, he couldn't plant anything more than I can. Can't afford a $50 fine for having "grass" higher than 8 inches because my corn or sunflowers get taller than what the city council thinks is "decent looking".

Vanity laws kick everyone in the teeth. Having to have a permit for a non-running car to repair is also pretty fucking stupid.

Like you said earlier, this area is worse than Deliverance, but without Ned Beatty being told he has a "pretty mouth".

[violence in the media]

You know, shadzar, unless you're unemployed, I'm having a hard time believing that you aren't spending at least some of your time here on someone else's dime.

What timezone are you in, anyway.

[shadzar]

Yes, I am unemployed (technically), and lost my home to Fanny and Freddie fucking up. Not that it any of your fucking business. I don't mean on unemployment, but no income save for under the table work just to get by. Also not many little businesses wanting even inexpensive website work in this economy where they can just use a static site, unless they have an online shopping cart that needs constant updating. Around here they don't do online sales.

Again, not that it is any of your goddamn business.

[violence in the media]

Again, not that it is any of your goddamn business.

Then why'd you bother posting any of that?

Also, how in the hell did Fannie and Freddie fuck up in such a manner as to cause you to lose your home? That's an epic clerical error right there. Or are you using "your home" in the colloquial sense of indicating where you keep your stuff and not in any way that denotes legal ownership? If so, that sucks and you have my sympathies.

[shadzar]

My home, not "my house".

[shadzar]

Here is some old kind of news. Students going to be arrested for protesting against the school for reform that prevents students from taking clasess, and overcrowding classes in colleges!

Who would have thought anyone anywhere in the world thinks a more focused and student driven decision in courses would be worthwhile.....

But the University of Vienna protesters say the reforms take away their flexibility to personally structure their degree programs. They also reject discussions of the reintroduction of tuition for Austrians and EU citizens, and want fees for foreigners and longtime students to be scrapped. The protesters also want entrance exams to be abolished, saying education should be open to everyone.

Just thought this may in some way fit into the original discussion prior to the "vs shadzar" one that became the focus of the thread.

[Orion]

"freedom to personally structure degree program" is not always a good thing.

[Sock Puppet]

Shadzar, it sounds like you have been through some rough times recently. You have my deep and sincere sympathies, no joke. I've also been finding myself being fucked over in new and interesting ways by life over the past year. Financially, I'm slowly circling the drain, and the best that I can do is slow it down even further.

If you're getting depressed or frustrated, maybe you need to find some way to shake up your routine. Swallow your disapproval, and go visit a local bar, or attend a major sport event. See a play, linger at a coffee shop. Genuine face-to-face human interaction, even with people you don't really know, can sometimes be a surpassing panacea to what ails your spirit.

I hope everything works out for you; you seem like a decent guy and it pains me to see decent people getting shafted by "the economy". Sometimes I try to take my mind off my problems by daydreaming about a better situation - this can even lead you to an accidental realization of a solution that did not originally occur to you. In any case, I wish you the best. It's times like this that I can understand a little of the allure of being religious - it would be nice to say "You'll be in my family's prayers tonight" and actually mean it. Instead - how's this? I'll dedicate the first bowl I smoke when I get off of work tonight to you.

[shadzar]

"freedom to personally structure degree program" is not always a good thing.

In a system where you are paying for it, you should have some say in it. I wouldn't just take whatever a restaurant wants to give me for a price of $20. I would prefer to choose what I get be it food, a car, or courses for the degree I would want.

I don't care for religion or drugs, but whatever helps you sleep at night is fine, as you have the right to those things, Sock.

[Sock Puppet]

"...religion or drugs..."

Just to be crystal clear, I'm not an especially big fan of the former, but I do not begrudge anyone else their right of expression of such. And for the latter, I only approve of small amounts under controlled circumstances. I recently found out that the company I work for has been bought by a nationwide chain, and I won't know for two weeks if I have a job or not. Not surprisingly, the stress is aggravating my natural proclivity toward insomnia. So in referencing it as a sleep aid, you indeed hit that nail right on the head.

[cthulhu]

"freedom to personally structure degree program" is not always a good thing.

In a system where you are paying for it, you should have some say in it.

Not sure I agree. If you want your degree recognized by the IEEE you need to do content A B C in approved manner X Y Z - some customization is important, but you must also meet the international standard.

[Crissa]

Some say is better than no say. With no say there's no room for minors, double majors, second degrees and testing out of qualifications.

-Crissa

PM (ex? How does the UK do that? In the US, someone is always President...) Tony Blair touts the advantages of community schooling beyond the education it provides.

[shadzar]

"freedom to personally structure degree program" is not always a good thing.

In a system where you are paying for it, you should have some say in it.

Not sure I agree. If you want your degree recognized by the IEEE you need to do content A B C in approved manner X Y Z - some customization is important, but you must also meet the international standard.

Does everyone need to be of international standard? A plumber from state to state (Yes, I liked Joe on TV talking to Obama) has to know different things and must stay within the laws of the state, so why be bother with futzing with learning a different nation's. And plumbers and doctors are the only jobs really secure because they will always be needed as long as we have indoor plumbing, and get sick. But plumbers get less malpractice suits against them.

[cthulhu]

Plumbers don't have degrees. However, they should be a national standard, and in the EU to minimize barriers between nations, it will ideally be an international standard.

But for Engineers, Actuaries, Accountants and other professionals - yes, then damn straight your work should be of an international standard.

[shadzar]

Plumbers don't have degrees.

Really? I guess you better call these colleges and let them know they are giving out false degrees!

http://www.universities.com/edu/Associa ... umber.html

[cthulhu]

Okay, plumbers in real countries are a trade certification!

[Crissa]

An Associate degree is also called a vocational degree. It is an alternate method to the apprenticing system. You still need to pass the trade certification even though you have the degree, much like someone with a law degree needs to pass the bar to be a lawyer.

Some states, like California conform to the international standard. This means you can easily import and export workers on what would be a unique job - like building super tall or high bridges, tunnels, tall buildings, etc. You don't do that in every state every day.

The state then has a series of codes that it notes that it differs - for instance, houses in California need to resist different threats such as wildfire, earthquakes, but in many areas there is no need for much insulation or sealing, if any at all because of the low humidity in much of the state and temperate climate.

One area of the state never exceeds 80F or 30F! Another never gets above 50% humidity. Some areas have extreme temperature swings, but they do not have humidity... But in say, Minnesota, they have high humidity and extreme cold, leading to freezing and frost incursion issues that aren't ever even worried about in California.

-Crissa

[cthulhu]

Weird shit.

[Orion]

The whole point of a degree program is that you're being certified as having accomplished some specific educational task.

Else, you could just but a subscription to JSTOR. Much cheaper.

Seriously though, this is kind of a sore point for me. I got the University of Chicago, one of the few Americans schools left at which most of our majors actually mean you've learned the methodology of an academic discipline. Ironically, I chose one of the more freeform majors at the school, however,

-- it's still got a more unified methodology than most liberal arts degrees,

and

-- I'm in a special program where tremendous amounts of faculty resources are devoted to following my progress and finding ways to challenge me.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Funny thing is, my certifications for a wastewaterworks operator is only good in the state I'm in. VA is a state that only accepts VA licenses as valid, and no other states accept ours. Our exams are open book, and to be honest a complete joke. I remember out of 3 exams, I looked up 2 answers and both said "See Advanced Treatment".

However, I do have certificates from the Univeristy of California (Sacramento) for completing their wastewaterworks courses, that and my time would let me sit on any state's license test that exists, and I would probably pass it since I did it for 80 hours a week, 6 years.

But yeah, I am qualified to be in charge of any wastewaterworks in the state that's 2 MGD or less, that's the second highest VA gives out.

[cthulhu]

Yeah, it's a huge cost on not having transferable licenses. Australia's working towards nationalising everything atm, and long overdue.