What is wrong with THAC0?

[shadzar]

Edit - Aside from the decreasing ACs, this is really very very similar to the 3e system numerically. If you flip the ACs around so they go 10+ and just change THAC0 to THAC20 (without adjusting the actual tables), you have a system where the DC to hit AC 20 decreases as you level up and the better you roll the higher the AC you hit.

You can also set the to-hit DC to a fixed number instead of a scaling one (20 to hit AC 20 sounds good to me) and then give the drop in DC as a bonus to your to hit rolls instead. This just pushes numbers to the other side of the equation and doesn't actually change anything... but it gives you BAB.

So 3e really is the 2e system just with AC turned around and the level based to hit bonus no longer hidden away in a downward scaling DC.

Thank you. That is what I was trying to get someone to explain earlier, but I didn't have the full math or the 3rd edition books to convert THAC0 to BAB with the proper numbers to change things to.

[shadzar]

So your argument, then, is that because it works sufficiently, there's no reason to or benefit in devising a system that works better according to a set of criteria?

Not really. MY question was what problem do people have with THAC0. It is becoming clear that is never was THAC0, people had the problem with, just the progression of AC.

Since I like 2nd, and dislike 3rd; I just have no need to change the system since it works. I am not that upset with the finite range provided by the lower-number-is-better AC system.

My criteria ha THAC0 and the AC with it working best for me, because it is part of the overall system I like. 3rd(4th/Wod/etc) doesn't fit my criteria for what I want to play, so why have to go changing it to fit me, when I already have a system I like playing that needs little to no changes at all. I am not even bothered by the level limits for races in 2nd. So your criteria means nothing to me for what I am looking for out of a game, just as my criteria for what I am looking for out of a game, should mean nothing to you. Unless for some reason you want to try my game of choice. Then you might ask what my criteria was, and I would probably just tell you you have to play with me running a game or playing the game with you with someone else DMing to find out what my criteria is.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

What's wrong with Thac0 can be summed up as: Complexity with little return.

[shadzar]

Of course, how many people "figured out" that they could wear rings on their toes/ears/penis? Ugh. I hate 3e's explicit magic item slots, but I hate AD&D's vaguely implied magic item slots even more.

-Username17

I guess after a certain level all adventurers became tricked-out perverts. Of course this made the male adventurer better than his female counterpart since you can stick a lot more rings onto a human dick.

ZOMG SEXISM

Depends on the size of the female characters nipples/clitoris, and whether the male is always erect, or for the male if it is cold or hot weather.

[mean_liar]

What's wrong with Thac0 can be summed up as: Complexity with little return.

The problem with THAC0 is that it inspires 9 page threads full of... hm... let's see. This:

[ubernoob]

*is bored in class, so looks at shadzar's posts*

How does someone who according to their myspace is 35 actually attempt to make dick jokes to be accepted? This is a new low.

[shadzar]

What's wrong with Thac0 can be summed up as: Complexity with little return.

Frank defines it as 2 steps. Which can be done before you roll dice. Meaning you don't always have to do it when making an attack. You get a new weapon and write done its THAC0 and other info on the sheet. You don't flip through the books to find what bonus this feat is, what bonus this skill gives, what bonus this etc is as you roll. You don't have skills and feats. So under BAB then it is the same number of steps since you don't have the two from THAC0, but do have to check with your feats and skills for any adjustments.

Did you take weapon finesse? Do you get anything from the skill...well I don't recall the 4 million skills in 3rd. 4th only has 11, and none give attack bonuses.

So it is no more complex than 3rd, but you can feel and think it more complex as is your right which nobody can deny you.

Thanks for a clear and concise answer to the question asked, even if I don't agree with it in particular.

Now we have THAC0 is more complex, and the AC system was the problem with THAC0's overall mechanics.

Keep em coming. I am getting info finally rather than just people trying to convert me to 3rd; and thank those for their honest opinions and answer to the question!

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Thac0 is slightly more complex with 3rd edition, in that you have to think backwards to know what you need to roll on the d20, whereas in 3rd edition, you know exactly what you need to roll to hit with less thinking.

Edit: you're making a side argument about feats and the inflation of the amount of bonuses between the editions. That's another issue.

[shadzar]

*is bored in class, so looks at shadzar's posts*

How does someone who according to their myspace is 35 actually attempt to make dick jokes to be accepted? This is a new low.

Nobody is dumb enough to put real info on places like MySpace. At least I hope not.

And what does age have to do with dick jokes? You know the first thing that comes out of an old mans dick when he has sex? The wrinkles! You can take that as a matter of fact and funny!

[shadzar]

Thac0 is slightly more complex with 3rd edition, in that you have to think backwards to know what you need to roll on the d20, whereas in 3rd edition, you know exactly what you need to roll to hit with less thinking.

I don't know 3rd that well, so won't argue with that. Just say that 3rd was much more complex for me with all its modifiers, is all I know. Might have been the Xmas tree effect. :shrugs:

[ubernoob]

*is bored in class, so looks at shadzar's posts*

How does someone who according to their myspace is 35 actually attempt to make dick jokes to be accepted? This is a new low.

Nobody is dumb enough to put real info on places like MySpace. At least I hope not.

And what does age have to do with dick jokes? You know the first thing that comes out of an old mans dick when he has sex? The wrinkles! You can take that as a matter of fact and funny!

Ok, so you put your age at higher than it actually is. I assume you are actually 15?

I actually have mostly accurate information on my social networking stuff, but I do the smart thing and keep my profile private.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Hitting in 3rd edition is thus:

Example:
Your enemy has an AC of 18
Your final roll+modifiers must equal 18 or higher
Your total modifiers = 5
You must roll 13 or higher to hit

Hitting in 2nd edition is thus:

Example:
Your enemy has an AC of 2
Your THac0 is 15
Subract AC from Thac0 (15-2) = 13
You must roll 13 or higher to hit

[Red_Rob]

No dipshit, blah blah blah Tom Bumblefuck (hehe that made me smile, i have to use that as a PC name) blah blah

If you want to bring stupidity, then I will ask the obverse of you. Are you that tired of your pathetic life, that you always need to change stuff just to have interest? Is it ADD(ADHD)? Are you unable to enjoy something as is? If you want to create your own, then why even play any published RPG or game? Instead why not just go out and make the one you are looking for?

(more whining about how your system isn't popular any more)

Grow up. I like THAC0 because it works for the game I play. I don't like 3rd because of MANY things. Unlimited AC range of the BAB system is just a minor part of why I don't like it. There is a ton more suck in 3rd than just that.

Maybe you are just too emotional about your system to think other people can like something different than you? Probably why you didn't address the main focus of the thread and just tell what it is you DON'T like about THAC0, but instead attacked the poster, rather than the topic?

Shadzar, you posted a topic asking what people don't like about the THACO system, then ignore all their responses and get defensive saying you like it just fine. What did you expect when you started this thread? People to chime in with their starry eyed tales of the good old days of THACO and how BAB ruined DnD?

I have personally played 2nd edition more than 3rd edition. I'm even running a 2nd edition campaign right now, THACO and all, for the nostalgia kick. However, and this is the point everyone is trying to get across to you, THACO is a slower and more complicated system that does the same thing BAB does. It just takes longer to do it. When i read 3rd editions combat system it was like someone had finally straightened out the quirks in the THACO system and made it work how it was always supposed to work.

And i totally stand by my earlier post that your refusal to see this is due to an emotional attachment to the system which gave you so many good times. Its like the early computer programmers that kept programming in assembly language all their life because its how they learned. No-one thinks liking THACO is badwrongfun, but your stubborn insistence that 5+3 = 2 is as straightforward as easy to learn as 5+3 = 8 is making you look like an unreasonable asshole.

[shadzar]

Hitting in 3rd edition is thus:

Example:

1. Your enemy has an AC of 18
2. Your final roll+modifiers must equal 18 or higher
3. Your total modifiers = 5
4. You must roll 13 or higher to hit

Hitting in 2nd edition is thus:

Example:

1. Your enemy has an AC of 2
2. Your THac0 is 15
3. Subtract AC from Thac0 (15-2) = 13
4. You must roll 13 or higher to hit

I count 4 steps for each.

[shadzar]

Shadzar, you posted a topic asking what people don't like about the THACO system, then ignore all their responses and get defensive saying you like it just fine. What did you expect when you started this thread?

Well you didn't answer the question asked in the thread. The purpose of the thread is the first post, not what the trolls(like yourself) have tried to turn it into.

I never asked why I liked THAC0. You tried to assign some emotional context to it. I expected people with half a brain to answer the question. Some have actually done that, unlike yourself. So yes I do ignore the responses and opinions of people that are completely off-topic (on tangent) or trying to convert me to 3rd.

So maybe re-read your own post and tell me if you answered the question in the first post?

You didn't. Instead you decided to troll, and come in with your opinion of why I liked THAC0, rather than addressing the topic of the thread itself.

Yes I will defend my thread against trolls. I have plenty of fire and acid. If you would like to withdraw from it or the trolling and answer the question asked from this thread, then I will address your points, and accept your opinion about THAC0, and we can discuss it. Which is the topic of the thread, not trying to convert shadzar to 3rd edition or another game because or its combat system.

Now do you wish to address the thread itself, by reading the first post, and answer the questions in it?

[Red_Rob]

So maybe re-read your own post and tell me if you answered the question in the first post?

Yes.

However, and this is the point everyone is trying to get across to you, THACO is a slower and more complicated system that does the same thing BAB does. It just takes longer to do it.

Also, your list is missing the whole point of why the THACO system is outmoded. I have amended it thusly:

Hitting in 3rd edition is thus:

Example:

1. Your enemy has magical chainmail +3 for an AC of 15 + 3 = 18. This is your target number.
2. Your total modifiers: +1,+1,+3 = +5
3. You must roll 18 or higher to hit on a D20 +5

Hitting in 2nd edition is thus:

Example:

1. Your enemy has magical chainmail +3 for an AC of 5 - 3 = 2 (already counterintuitive)
2. Your THac0 is 17
3. Your total modifiers: +1,+1 = +2
4. Subtract your modifiers from your THACO = 15
5. Subtract AC from Thac0 (15-2) = 13
6. You must roll 13 or higher to hit on a D20

If you can't see how the second is harder to explain to a new player then you, sir, are the Bumblefuck.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Hitting in 3rd edition is thus:

Example:

1. Your enemy has an AC of 18
2. Your final roll+modifiers must equal 18 or higher
3. Your total modifiers = 5
4. You must roll 13 or higher to hit

Hitting in 2nd edition is thus:

Example:

1. Your enemy has an AC of 2
2. Your THac0 is 15
3. Subtract AC from Thac0 (15-2) = 13
4. You must roll 13 or higher to hit

I count 4 steps for each.

True, but the first one requires addition while the second one requires subtraction. First one is more intuitive. Secondly, the 2nd edition method, requires subtracting negative numbers. For instance if the enemy had an AC of -2 , the steps would be (15 - -2) = 17 required to hit.

Also, bonuses and penalties require opposite thinking. Penalties to AC are good, while penalties to attack are bad as opposed to 3e: Penalties to AC are bad, and penalties to attack are bad. Notice that 2e breaks its own rule and has +5 Chainmail, rather than -5 Chainmail.

[shadzar]

Also, your list is missing the whole point of why the THACO system is outmoded.

Bill's list. Learn to read Rob Bumblefuck.

True, but the first one requires addition while the second one requires subtraction. First one is more intuitive. Secondly, the 2nd edition method, requires subtracting negative numbers. For instance if the enemy had an AC of -2 , the steps would be (15 - -2) = 17 required to hit.

What is done during the step means nothing to mean. The number of steps is what would matter to me.

Look up numbers
Do some math
roll dice
compare results

No matter how you put it, they all use that same format. So I don't see it as being complex. As Einstein said, if you want to explain something make it to where a child can understand it. E-mc^2 is easy to understand, even if the math behind it isn't. That was the point. The concept and functions should be easy to understand. If you cannot do the math, then pick something to do without math. If you cannot or unwilling to do the job then don't take it. You are the one at fault for not wanting to do the work for EITHER system.

And there are some that play games that don't use THAC0, that just don't want to do ANY math, but just roll dice and make shit up.

So the steps are always the same when you have to compare numbers.

Want a system that is easier to use dice and compare numbers, then just ignore all the other things and each rol a d20. The one who rolls the highest wins. Or go for simpler randomization. Flip a coin. Heads hit, tails misses.

It is really hard to get below those 4 steps and have any level of complexity that allows for modifiers. You will always have to do math, and the only way to remove that layer of complexity is to just remove the need to do the math, right?

Or would you say those are not the four steps used in both systems 2nd and 3rd?

That is why I wonder why people are getting hung up on the math. This is also the way I teach people to do it, and the forget about the math. Those are the four steps of the attack roll mechanic as far as I know them.

[RandomCasualty2]

Thac0 is slightly more complex with 3rd edition, in that you have to think backwards to know what you need to roll on the d20, whereas in 3rd edition, you know exactly what you need to roll to hit with less thinking.

Well no. Actually THAC0 was slightly better at telling you what you needed to roll on the d20 to hit. But in 3E, you honestly didn't even care, you just cared what the total was. Because you'd roll an 11, add your bonus and say "Does a 28 hit?"

And it'd be easier for the DM to compare in actual play. You actually don't care what number you need to roll most of the time, you just roll the die and figure out a total.

Where as the THAC0 system was crazy simply because you had to compare it separately for each PC. So you say shit like "Does an 18 hit with a THAC0 of 15?"

And that's just needlessly complex, because you need to give the DM two numbers instead of one.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Well Rob's list is actually better than mine. Your Thac0 doesn't change if you have modifiers, you have a Thac0 and figure out your current to hit roll by subtracting your Attack Bonuses and then by Subracting your Enemy AC which is counterintiuitive. You're subtracting bonuses and adding penalties.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Depends on the size of the female characters nipples/clitoris, and whether the male is always erect, or for the male if it is cold or hot weather.

Men in heroic fantasy can achieve erections on command and are never any smaller than a cucumber, especially if the number of magical rings they can use at once depends on it.

[Red_Rob]

What is done during the step means nothing to mean. The number of steps is what would matter to me.

Look up numbers
Do some math
roll dice
compare results

No matter how you put it, they all use that same format. So I don't see it as being complex.

Another classic quote from Shadzar that is completely ridiculous. It doesn't matter whether each step is "add +1" or "divide by the square root of the characters weight" because they are all just steps? To coin a phrase, THIS IS MADNESS!

And yes, when you boil it down to "look up some numbers then do some math" then all roleplaying systems are equal in complexity. But when you are arguing that Over the Edge and Champions and FATAL and Chivalry & Sorcery and Call of Cthulhu are all equal in complexity then you have ventured off into the far realms of insanity and might as well be arguing that up is down and black is white.

Also, its nice of you to totally ignore the fact my complete list (which Bill even kindly stated was "better" than his, i assume as it was more complete) has twice as many steps for 2nd edition. Which invalidates your own position as stated at the start of your post. Shadzar are you just fucking with us? Is this all some elaborate troll?

[Ganbare Gincun]

Nine pages of troll feeding now, eh?

[Red_Rob]

As an aside, i love the way on these boards unreasonable trolls always get pushed into defending some ass-backwards statement they made to the point of insanity rather then admitting they were wrong, like arguing that 4e Skill Challenges are a fun and balanced system as written or that thousands sounds like more than millions.

Or that 5+3 = 2 is more straightforward than 5+3=8.

[Psychic Robot]

Or that "hundreds of thousands" is more than "millions."