Tome of Battle question

ibanez · Post by **ibanez** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:23 pm

While this book obviously didn't fix the gap between fighters and casters it seemed pretty interesting and seems like a lot of people around here think it's decent. If I wanted to play a level appropriate Warblade or Crusader from levels 1 to 10 what kind of build should I make?

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:36 pm

Depends what resources you have available outside of the ToB and how your group views dumpster diving for feats and class features.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:50 pm

The typical Crusader is built around Stand Still (a General feat from the psionic section of the SRD or EPH). Get yourself a reach weapon and go to town.

The best reach weapons for this character are :

spiked chain: 10' reach, can attack adjacent targets
rope dart/meteor hammer: 15' reach, can attack any target within that range (like with a spiked chain)
spinning sword: 10' reach, can attack adjacent targets, ONE HANDED

So a typical human progression might be:

1: Stand Still
H: Combat Reflexes
3: Exotic Weapon Prof
6: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) -- Retrained to Extra Granted Maneuver at level 8

Everything past that level is negotiable.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:00 pm

Kusari-Gama and Whip Dagger should be added to the list. Both are One-Handed. Kusari-Gama's and Whip Daggers are finessable. That doesn't matter since you want damage in order to pull off your Stand Still maneuver.

As should the Extending +1 weapon property from some Dragon Magazine (200-something; it's in one of the issue about a bunch of Drow; the Piwafwi's of armour/resistance are in the same issue; DR 223 or thereabouts).

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:18 pm

It is entirely possible to create a character using nothing but core and Bo9S material that can at least last as long as a rogue before going obsolete. However, fans of the book grossly overstate the ability the ease this book to do so, like you can just take nothing but Swordsage 20 and he's just as strong as a rogue! Maybe even a wizard! This book has a huge number of suboptimal options in it and they're not immediately obvious to people who buy into the 'Bo9S made everything better!' malarky. They're really hard to enumerate, especially once we get into powers, but you can keep four core rules in mind. First one:

Not all of the classes are equal.

Okay, let me amend that. Only the Warblade is usable. The Crusader sucks because where ToB really excels is in giving defensive options to sword-based classes and not being able to push the panic button sucks. The Crusader is thus a complete non-starter before we get into the fact that they have an inferior chassis to the Warblade: sucky class features, fewer hit points, and access to only three schools--one of which is the miserable fucking Stone Dragon school, so it's really like they only have two schools. Verdict, don't be a Crusader. Don't even pick Crusader over a non-martial adept, because they can be things like Frenzied Berserkers and Singh Ragers.

The Swordsage sucks because they're a 3/4ths BAB class with no sneak attack. While they do have access to three schools the others don't... 3/4ths BAB and no sneak attack. And their power replenishment scheme sucks. The Warblade actually ends up being more versatile because they can just load their maneuver slots with one of each maneuver they want to use and then just continually refresh them, especially if you're using some sort of extra-action scheme like Action Points. The Swordsage's power-replenishment is a load of ass, too. Even with a feat they take a full-round action to recover all of their maneuvers, so they actually have to double-up on maneuvers--which negates their advantage of being able to prepare more maneuvers. Their other advantage, that of having access to three specific schools, gets negated by the cheap-as-free maneuver-granting MIs in this very book.

If you had to pick a martial adept class, be a fucking Warblade. If you can't be a Warblade, throw away the book, especially if you're starting at low level. If the DM is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to pick, be a Swordsage over a Crusader.

The Prestige Classes by and large suck. Their biggest problem is that they break the schedule of maneuver gain, but they weigh the maneuver gain towards the conservative end of the scale. It's possible to go 5 levels from a martial adept class to a martial adept PrC without getting a maneuver.

Their second-biggest problem is that they tend to angrily dictate what kind of maneuvers you gain get. Even great schools like Diamond Mind have a lot of sub-optimal levels for maneuvers so you're forced to take bupkiss powers.

The only remotely usable PrCs in that book are the Master of Nine and the Eternal Blade. Master of Nine is great for Warblades since it inflates their maneuver slots like crazy and gives them 6 new maneuvers from any school (which obviates their greatest weaknesses). Unfortunately, Master of Nine also requires five completely bullshit feats as well. You can neem this down a lot by getting that stupid-ass ring in PGTF which gives you the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and blowing your stupid Warblade 5th and 9th level bonus feats on qualifications, but still, what a shitload of fuck.

Also, Master of Nine gives you a BAB-penalty hit. Which means that there's no way in fuck you're taking the fifth level. Thanks, bitch.

Eternal Blade is actually very good, making you much more versatile for no reason (especially if you came in as a Warblade), but the problem is that the bare minimum you can enter this class is at level 10, due to the BAB 10 requirement. If you're willing to stick with it that long you may as well have just become a Master of Nine (you can't really do both) since the MoN gives about the same bulge of benefits at an accelerated rate.

Not all of the schools are created equal.

This should actually be blatantly obvious. White Raven is pure gold, especially in a melee-heavy party. The Diamond Mind School is just pure fucking platinum. Tiger Claw is also great, but not as good as the above schools. Iron Heart is okay. Desert Wind is powerful to start out with but tapers off really fast. Same for Shadow Hand, but it doesn't become quite as bad as Desert Wind (at least they get to eventually fly without sucking wizard cock). Setting Sun, except for a couple of maneuvers, is laughably bad. Devoted Spirit is also mostly bad but has some really good low- and high- level maneuvers. Stone Dragon is just awful; they only have one maneuver I can see anyone using and it's at first level. Unfortunately, Stone Dragon is the school EVERYONE gets. Sigh.

I know that this blurb is kind of short, but the powers and their schools are the biggest portion of this book. We have a lot of threads on TGD which review entire schools and tell you which powers to take and which ones not to take.

I'll dig them up for you later, once I pick up YGO5D's Tag Force 4 and New Super Mario Bros. Wii today. Maybe even complete them? Who knows.

Not all of the levels are created equal.

The powers are designed in a really wonky way; when you gain a level in a ToB class there's no restriction on the maneuver you can select, you just need the prerequisite power and the appropriate manifester level. The thing is...

A) Levels in classes that are not the class you're picking maneuvers for add up to give you a higher initiator level. So a Fighter 2 / Warblade 2 actually has an initiator level of 3.

B) ToB classes, unlike 'real' spellcasting classes, do not gain their maneuvers off of a chart. Every level you get a fixed number of extra maneuvers/slots/stances.

C) Levels do not hand out the same bennies. Like all 3E sword-based classes, the first level tends to be ridiculously frontloaded and ability gain tapers off.

So what does all this mean? It means that a Warblade 8 / Swordsage 1 ends up with better powers than a Warblade 4 / Swordsage 1 / Warblade 4. Which is just ridiculously unfair and retarded. As a massive amount of fail that the 3E sword-based classes were, a Fighter 4 / Paladin 2 / Ranger 2 was about the same power level as a Paladin 1 / Fighter 2 / Ranger 2 / Fighter 1 / Paladin 1 / Fighter 1.

Everything else in Bo9S book sucks Hitler's hairy, smegma-tainted taint.

The feats in that book are mediocre at best. They are a couple of fairly good ones like Shadow Blade and Shadow Trickster and Song of the White Raven. The most notable feats however are the ones that let non-martial adepts get martial-adept maneuvers. Generally, you don't want to do this unless you're plundering a ridiculously awesome power or stance because your replenishment rate sucks. Though getting +2d6 sneak attack is definitely worth two feats and substituting a constitution check for a save once an encounter is worth a feat, too.

None of the Tactical Feats are worth looking at. Just pretend they don't exist.

The legacy items in that game suck. Don't look at them. They do bullshit like give you a -2 attack penalty, take away two levels' worth of hit points, and impose a -4 save penalty for the ability to use great invisibility twice a day. The requirements are also ridiculously stupid, too and it's a huge money sink to boot.

Actually, Tiger's Fang is pretty fucking sweet if you can stomach the attack and save penalty and hit point losses and your DM will let you stack enchantments on top of it (I know DMs that don't allow mithril celestial fullplate). You end up with a 18-20x4 weapon. Me, I'd just avoid, because that would make me feel dirty.

Martial scripts cost just as much as scrolls but they have smaller effects. Ignore these.

The Aptitude Weapon quality is a huge joke. As a +1 enchantment you get to apply the benefit of Weapon Focus/Specialization/Improved Critical/etc. to weapons with this quality. Why wouldn't I just have the fucking weapon I selected for these feats?

Martial Discipline Weapons are way better. They're stackable +1 enchantments keyed to a ToB school that give a +1 bonus to attack rolls if you know a maneuver keyed to the school. So if you found a +1 shadow hand greataxe and you had a shadow hand school, you'd get an always-on +2 bonus to attacks.

Which sounds like a bad deal, but it gets better; if you have the item equipment and you're currently using a maneuver from the school the bonus changes to +3. So if I had a +1 shadow hand, desert wind, tiger claw aptitude weapon and I hit an enemy while putting up Assassin's Stance stance, Flash of Sunset strike, and Dancing Mongoose Boost I would get a +10 bonus to attack rolls for my +4 equivalent weapon.

Finally, there are a bunch of wondrous items that in exchange for a slot you gain the use of a maneuver. They have steeply ascending prices for better maneuvers much like every other bonus item in 3E. However, since ToB is poorly written and badly balanced there are some level 3 maneuvers that are always going to be solid gold, such as Assassin's Stance. And you can pay extra money to make these things slotless.

Unless you want all of your players running around with 2d6 extra sneak attack for no reason I suggest banning or limiting these items.

A less cheesy use would be using these magical items to qualify for prestige classes, which is pretty much mandatory if you want to be a fucking Warblade sneaking into Master of Nine or Eternal Blade. Or you could be stupid and use these items to get your cleric to slip his dick into, say, the Ruby Knight Vindicator without spending precious caster levels trying to get in. Of course, you lose two caster levels in that PrC anyway but as long as you have 16 BAB and level 9 spells by level 20, what the fuck, right?

There are also three new monsters in the book. One is a variant of rakshakas, only less interesting. The other is a previous of those stupid-ass 4E angels. The last one is a valkyrie, only they're build like whispy little amazons (10 feet tall and 350 pounds? What the fuck?)

And that's about it.

It's not a very well-written book, mostly because about 75% of it is just unusable, which puts it on the level of bullshit like Complete Warrior. I also hate that book because it gave Andy Collins the cover he needed to make his precious 4E a railroading points of light setting by giving a template to repackage old shit as new shit--that way people wouldn't notice that characters have a lot less to do in his miserable edition.

However, at least Book of Nine attempted to make sword-based classes good and usable and I will give the book credit for that. This book (first printing in August 2006) really needed to have come out at the beginning of 3E's lifespan rather than the end--things would've turned out MUCH better.

All-in-all, if you want to make a usable character from the book, you need to do a LOT of planning. Since like I said the maneuvers and ability gain aren't equal you need to plan your character down to the order in which they gain levels. There's no room for fucking around. I actually don't recommend this book to a casual player because of this.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:11 pm

You're giving too much crusader hate. They have limited maneuvers, but if you just want to be able to perform a specific white raven maneuver or use maneuvers granted by PrCs (only really eternal blade is worth a damn), then a single crusader level at level 9.

Warblade 8/ Crusader 1/ Warblade+1/ Eternal Blade is pretty much the only ToB character you should ever play. There aren't enough high level maneuvers we actually care about to give one shit about master of the nine.

Yes, Crusader is a 1 level class. That's fine if you're using it to prep nothing but WRT and your three diamond mind save counters (use stance of alacrity once you get high enough level; it's even worth spending a feat on).

Oh, and fuck the Stand Still build. It isn't viable at any point.

Guyr Adamantine · Post by **Guyr Adamantine** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:36 am

ubernoob wrote:Warblade 8/ Crusader 1/ Warblade+1/ Eternal Blade is pretty much the only ToB character you should ever play. There aren't enough high level maneuvers we actually care about to give one shit about master of the nine.

But then you're stuck playing a goddamn elf.

Also, you get Navi as a class feature.

I remember a guide called The Art of Making a Multiclassed Martial Adept on 339. It gave comprehensive builds for Swordsages/Warblades and Crusader/Warblades, to get a shit-ton of maneuvers. Might be worth the pain.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:32 am

Warblade 8/ Crusader 1/ Warblade+1/ Eternal Blade is pretty much the only ToB character you should ever play. There aren't enough high level maneuvers we actually care about to give one shit about master of the nine.

You want Master of Nine not for the manuevers, since like I said 75% of maneuvers are pointless, but you want them to inflate your maneuvers readied slot and to snag more stances.

Regardless, there are some good non-Devoted Spirit/Iron Heart/Diamond Mind/White Raven high-level maneuvers to snag that the Eternal Blade doesn't get--assuming you ban those maneuver-granting items, which I recommend. However, they're all from the Tiger Claw school--with one exception for Setting Sun and a couple from Desert Wind.

I'd personally say that they're about a wash, slight advantage towards the Eternal Blade. You miss out on a lot of feats and a point of BAB, but you end up with more maneuvers readied and you can snag the maneuvers you need. However, if you can spare the points of intelligence because you're playing in a high-powered game Eternal Training, Defensive Insight, and Guided Strike are pretty friggin' awesome.

Have I mentioned how much I really, really, really fucking hate racial PrCs? I think it's bad enough people have to min-max their advancement, but do they also have to min-max their fucking origin story, too?

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:41 am

To the op...
A lot of what you just read is from some fucking throwed off perspective.
I'm not sure what the scale of power is that they're looking for but when Lago says "things we actually care about" I find myself thinking there are a lot of effects that are in that book that people will care about.
I mean there is a whole fuckload of builds out there in fact yeah at 339 theres a build compendium, as well as a ToB tricks thread
The classes are "Not created equal" I personally do like the warblade better but you can make swordsages that shadowpounce and crusaders that have a lot of staying power.

You're giving too much crusader hate.

I hated the crusader because of he random mechanic for a while till I really thought about what PhoenixInferno said "If you have a random pile of awesome, you still have a fucking pile of awesome"
The book does want you to multiclass but requires that you not be stupid and figure out how its multiclassing worsk
. So its not nubish but yeah if you don't fucking think you can come up with bad manuever combo's because you pick the multiclassing out of order.
Two-weapon fighting Swordsages can exist that fuck people in the face.
The devoted spirit schooll is a bit better than what he's giving it credit for, but I'm not going to argue that the schools are not created equal.
You should be able to build a crusader thats well worth playing.
White Raven tactics and White raven stun and well the white raven school kicks ass but in 3.5 many things suck if you don't know what you're doing. It like Evoker wizard suck therefore wizards suck... not so much.

As far as the tactical feats the Iron Heart one and the White raven one can be fucking worth while and I rember someone using gloom razor but... that was some very specific build.. stiil. Unless you're playing rocket tag with someone and even then the Iron heart one can still work see channel the storm.
It's a bunch or really obvious shit in there if you have a basic understanding of whats good as far as melee goes. I mean fuck crusaders can do strikes that cast "Heal" and have a power thats similar to "Hatred" they basically can stand up a long time killing shit. Though as far as "Does your Dm allow dumpster diving" well fuck if your Dm is going to say "No, core and Tob only!" or some shit then play fucking CoD
which is superior and easy. But its not like under those circumstances you were going to play a fighter so whatever.
Prc's The Ruby Knight, and JPM are good so again... it's like really there's a finicky question as to what's being said when we're refering to power.
RKV can actually let you do thinks like toggle the crusader manuevers out of your pool by spending turn attemps which is pretty easy.
Jpm is a gish. So basically you get some 9th level warblade things and some 7th-8th level wizard utility and you know spam heroics to pull martial study or martial stances or other feats out your ass when you need them as well as you know GMW and the such.
The book is NOT bad. Its not Uber, but it is by no means Complete warrior level bullshit. Thats just nonsense.

Hey I'm taking a second to actually answer the what build should I play bit too... I'lll add a few that I'm found of especially the first 10 levels. So... I search.
The Feral Dreadlord - by Tleilaxu_Ghola

The concept of sneak attack optimization in the context of Tome of Battle is obvious at the abstract level, however an actual optimized progression has been elusive to me, and I think many others. The Feral Assassin is my best attempt thus far.

Optimization Objectives

Maximize Attack Bonus & number of attacks
Maximize Sneak Attack dice
Incorporate a "guaranteed" Sneak Attack method by the time sneak attack is acquired in an appreciable quantity (2d6 sneak attack or more).
Optimize Saves, HP, AC, and initiative for general combat effectiveness.
Optimize for mid-levels (should bloom at 8-12th level); this is for practicality purposes.

Code: Select all

Race&#58; Human, Azurin, Strong Heart Halfling, or Silverbrow Human

----CLASS-#-----------FEATS/CLASS ABILITIES OF NOTE------------------------IL&#58; WB/SS--SWAP?--BAB--Saves
1.-Swordsage 1&#58; Shadow Blade, &#40;Two-Weapon Fighting&#41;, &#40;Weapon Focus&#58; SH&#41;-------0/1------------0---0/2/2
2.-Warblade 1&#58;----------------------------------------------------------------1/1------------1---2/2/2
3.-Warblade 2&#58; Weapon Finesse, &#91;Uncanny Dodge&#93;--------------------------------2/2------------2---3/2/2
4.-Warblade 3&#58;----------------------------------------------------------------3/2------------3---3/3/3
5.-Warblade 4&#58;----------------------------------------------------------------4/3------X-----4---4/3/3
6.-Rogue 1&#58; White Raven Defense, &#91;Sneak Attack +1d6&#93;--------------------------5/3------------4---4/5/3
7.-Blood Claw Master 1&#58;-------------------------------------------------------6/4------------4---6/7/3
8.-Blood Claw Master 2&#58; &#91;Superior Two-Weapon Fighting&#93;------------------------7/5------------5---7/8/3
9.-Swordsage 2&#58; &#91;Assassin's Stance&#93;, Clarion Commander------------------------7/6------------6---7/9/4
10.Blood Claw Master 3&#58;-------------------------------------------------------8/7------------7---7/9/5
11.Rogue 2&#58; &#91;Evasion&#93;---------------------------------------------------------9/8------------8---7/10/5
12.Warblade 5&#58; &#40;Improved Initiative&#41;, Improved Two Weapon Fighting------------10/8-----------9---7/10/5
13.Night Song Enforcer 1&#58; &#91;Sneak Attack +1d6&#93;---------------------------------10/9-----------10--7/12/5
14.Rogue 3&#58; Sneak Attack +1d6-------------------------------------------------11/9-----------11--8/12/6
15.Warblade 6&#58; Greater Two Weapon Fighting. &#91;Improved Uncanny Dodge&#93;----------12/10----X-----12--9/13/7
16.Warblade 7-----------------------------------------------------------------13/10----------13--9/13/7
17.Warblade 8-----------------------------------------------------------------14/11----X-----14--10/13/7
18.Warblade 9&#58; Craven --------------------------------------------------------15/11----------15--10/14/8
19.Warblade 10&#58; &#40;Iron Will&#41;---------------------------------------------------16/12----X-----16--11/14/10
20.Warblade 11----------------------------------------------------------------17/12----------17--11/14/10

Vital Statistics & Other Goodies

HP: 14d12 + 3d8 + 3d6
Int Bonus to: Reflex saves, Critical Hit Confirmation, damage against flat-footed or flanked foes, checks to oppose the following: disarm, feint, trip, bull rush, sunder
Dex Bonus to: Attack, Damage
Full Strength Bonus on both attacks, no TWF penalty
5d6 sneak attack when in Assassin's stance (which is essentially always)
Initiative = 5+dex and we'll have a good dexterity.

The Sneak Attack Trick
This character, at 9th level -- the same level it gets 3d6 sneak attack, can use the tactical feat Clarion Commander. At this level the character is assumed to have full ranks in intimidate (and hopefully no charisma penalty). The character must make a DC 20 intimidate check to render his opponent flanked for 1 minute. This requires a standard action, so the first round of combat against an opponent is typically wasted, at least we can move to melee range. The next round we make a full attack sequence. The first attack deals no sneak attack damage just yet, but any subsequent attacks will gain both flanking bonus and sneak attack damage. The real trick is to acquire a blade with the blurstrike enhancement from Races of the Wild. This allows that first attack to get sneak attack (because the foe is considered flat-footed against the attack). Essentially, you have to waste a round of combat to set it up, but for the next minute you can full attack away, getting sneak attack and attack bonuses the whole way home.

Really, there's nothing sneaky about this sneak attacker. He calls out his opponent in the first round, then procedes to gut him like a fish in subsequent rounds. Makes for a pretty good image and cool role-playing aspect. Your d12 HD and combat prowess also add to the Feral Dreadlord's theme.

Crit Immune Creatures
Common worry for those making sneak attack builds. You'll note that this guy is far from helpless against golems, undead, and the like. He can switch to island of blades (the other shadow hand stance that he has) and improve his chance of flanking his opponents. Once he accomplishes this, he gets full strength, dex, and intelligence to all his attacks. Kind of MAD, but dexterity and intelligence are the character's two most important statistics. Unfortunately I was not able to cram stormguard warrior into this build as well, as that would have been the ultimate answer to crit-immune critters. Note that many, if not all, of this guy's maneuvers function against crit-immune creatures and thus he'll still have a trick in the hat when fighting them.

Interestingly enough, swordsage also helps out a little bit in this department. Burning blade will offer a substancial boost to damage figures, though it is feasable to use it once per encounter.

It has also been brought to my attention that Castle Ravenloft has a varient feature which allows you to retain 1/2 sneak damage against crit-immune foes, so long as you flank them. This would be an obvious choice for the build, if the book is available to you. I personally don't have the book, so I can't comment much further on this ability.

Satisfaction of Objectives
I rarely satisfy all my objectives, but this build comes close. 17 BAB, 5d6 sneak attack, Full TWF tree, craven feat, Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose, and a focus on flanking all help to satisfy the first two objectives. The build clearly has an enabling trick for sneak attacks. HP are about as good as I can make them, AC may be a little lacking but with a little money one could wear a mithril full plate without incident. I recommend celestial armor, if you can get a hold of it. The nice thing about this build is that it works for only one good stat: DEX, but has a lot of expansion room for characters with multiple good stats. Literally every statistic can contribute to this character in some way: INT helps with skills and damage, Dex helps with attack, damage, ac, initiative, reflex saves, and skills, Wisdom can increase AC (if in light armor) and helps will saves, Charisma helps the intimidation check, CON is good for obvious reasons, and strength helps damage. If I had to rank the stats it would go: DEX>INT>CON>STR>CHA>WIS.

One of the weaknesses of this build is his relatively low will saving throw. I tried to mitigate this with iron will, but the fact that his dump stat is obviously wisdom doesn't help much. If you're worried about your will save, I recommend replacing craven with shape soulmeld (Planar Ward).

Further Optimization
It should be clear to any astute disciple of Tome of Battle builds that this build is out of phase by 1 level. I struggled to construct the build in a manner which would cause certain attributes (like sneak attack and clarion commander) converge on specific points. I really wanted this build to have its main damage trick by 9th level and so that is why I ended up out of phase with an optimal ToB progression. Alas. Suggestions for fixing this are welcome.

Additionally, though I doubt it can be mended, is the fact that chracter takes a hit to BAB at low levels. This is almost unavoidable, but it still hurts. My hope is that flanking bonuses, weapon focus, a good dex score, and no TWF penalty will make the impact of the BAB loss more tolerable.

Sir Owns-A-Lot by T_Ghola

Name: Sir Ownsalot
Race: Human
Build Stub:Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Fighter +1/Warblade +2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Exotic Weapon's Master +1/Fighter +2/Psychic Warrior +2/Bloodstorm Blade +6
Feats:
1. EWP (Talenta Boomerang), (Point Blank Shot), (Precise Shot)
3. Ironheart Aura, (TWF)
6. Boomerang Daze
8. (Weapon Focus [Talenta Boomerang])
9. Stormguard Warrior
12. Boomerang Ricochet, (Improved TWF)
13. (Rapid Shot)
14. (Many Shot)
15. Greater TWF
16. (Improved Rapid Shot)
18. Weapon Specialization [Talenta Boomerang]
19. (Ranged Weapon Mastery)

So attack bonus (without speed) looks like this:
(Assume Strength 30 & +5 weapon)

[10 STR + 19 BAB + 1 Focus + 2 Mastery + 5 enhancement -1 (TWF penalty)] = +36.

Full attack = +36/+36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21

Now assuming all of these attacks hit the first round (as melee touch attacks) we get a +40 bonus to damage. Not bad. Remember though, we can add our strength into these damage figures (palm throw used to negate that).

Damage Calculations:
Primary hand (5 attacks): [10 STR + 5 enhancement + 40 unnamed + 1d4 +2 specialization +2 mastery]
Off-hand (3 attacks): [5 STR + 5 enhancement + 40 unnamed + 1d4 +2 specialization +2 mastery]

That's a total of 477 damage to both targets (with ricochet) and the DC daze effect is 72 for the primary hand and 67 for the off-hand.

Now, if we add in speed (as last time) the unnamed bonus to damage goes up by 10, increasing those daze DCs by 10. The total comes out to 695 damage. Not quite to it's former glory, but much more legal. I highly recommend that you also add wounding on to these boomerangs as well. That bumps it up to a dandy 10 con damage per round + nearly 700 damage + extremely high DC dazing effects. You can check around, but there are very few monsters and very few effects which offer immunity to daze, unlike stun. Not to mention that this damage affects 2 people per round, not just one.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:04 am

I hated the crusader because of he random mechanic for a while till I really thought about what PhoenixInferno said "If you have a random pile of awesome, you still have a fucking pile of awesome"

If you're relying on a combo that has a certain maneuver then not having it sucks. Not having Moment of Perfect Mind or White Raven Tactics or Sudden Leap available when you need it really, REALLY sucks.

You notice how arcane spellcasters completely eschew armor because of the ASF chance? Even when it's as low as 5 or 10%? The Crusader has a higher 'you're fucked' rate than that. That's why the Crusader sucks unless you're using it to plunder a Devoted Spirit maneuver or you're stacking with your deck with nothing but one or two maneuvers.

I don't know who built that Feral Dreadlord build but they're crazy. You want a high-damage ToB build? Be a Warblade/Crusader or Swordsage/EWF/Eternal Blade who uses a bunch of those stupid maneuver-granting items and TWF with a spiked chain and unarmed strikes. Keep spamming the Tiger Claw / Snap Kick / Flashing Sun button.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:27 am

Iron Heart Surge is of course hilarious. Because you can suddenly become 20 years old again from "ancient geezer" and get a bonus to hit in the process.

Also, they suggest a Sorcerous Swordsage variant, and that can work really well. Because it's an Arcane Caster.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:33 am

Two points Lago:

1) Doubling up Maneuvers is not allowed. Based on the text, it seems not allowed, and you only think it is because you wish maneuvers used a sane mechanic.

By the Words of the FAQ/Sage/Any DM you ask who has read those, you can't for sure.

2) "The Aptitude Weapon quality is a huge joke. As a +1 enchantment you get to apply the benefit of Weapon Focus/Specialization/Improved Critical/etc. to weapons with this quality. Why wouldn't I just have the fucking weapon I selected for these feats?"

The only purpose of Aptitude Weapons is to make it so I can Lightning Mace with 10-20 weapons.

Outside of that, yeah, useless. Aptitude is either retarded or uselessly retarded.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:40 am

1) Doubling up Maneuvers is not allowed. Based on the text, it seems not allowed, and you only think it is because you wish maneuvers used a sane mechanic.

By the Words of the FAQ/Sage/Any DM you ask who has read those, you can't for sure.

I really hate that fucking bastard Andy Collins.

Okay, wow, this really hurts martial adepts. I'm seriously starting to wonder what's the point of all of the classes when a level of Warblade and those stupid maneuver-granting items lets you do the job better than actually taking levels in them.

I mean, really, the whole point of taking extra Martial Adept levels over just taking a level of Warblade and the rest in whatever is so that you can double up on maneuvers. For example, if you have a strike you really love and a couple of boosts and counters, you could arrange it as SSSBB,C1,C2.

Why would you do that? So you could go three rounds of spamming your best maneuvers without having to refresh; refreshing stops your ability to use maneuvers for a round.

However, if you can't do that then S1,B1,C1,C2 is equal to S1,S2,S3,B1,B2,C1,C2, because the maneuvers in this fucking book are so bad that you generally are only going to spam a few of the best ones then try to get them back as soon as possible. The latter arrangement might be superior to the former if 75-85% of the maneuvers weren't a pile of fucking shit. But the powers are so badly written that Awesome Spell -> Dry Spell -> Awesome Spell -> Dry Spell -> Awesome Spell are better than Awesome -> Sub-Awesome -> Dry Spell -> Awesome -> Sub Awesome.

Which means that all you fucking need now is a single level of Warblade and/or Crusader and a bunch of fucking extra-maneuver items. The rest of your levels can be in anything else.

Sorry guys, false alarm.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:42 am

Seriously, when's that asshole getting fired?! If Sean K. Reynolds and Ed Stark can get fired, why not his ass?!

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:47 am

That was pretty ranty M_v.

The Feral Dreadlord smacks of "It gets 9th level spells and BAB 16 at level 20, so it's good" Syndrome. We've gone through the ToB a few times, and a lot of the options either are good at a point and don't scale well at all or never were good to begin with. See: Desert Wind. The fact that the build doesn't really come into it's own until 10th level is completely unacceptable. This is 5th level going on 6th level spell territory; "Rogue has 5d6 Sneak Attack, Ring of Blink, and Perfect TWF yet is still in danger of obsolescence" territory. And the Crusader Heal Strike 9th level capstone maneuver can climb a wall of dicks.

I don't even really know what the fuck you're going on about with the rest of your post though; Combat Rhythm is the only vaguely worthwhile part of the IH tactical feat and if you've gamed your number of melee attacks where that bonus damage becomes more useful than just full attacking, then you're either doing shit for damage normally or could just Cuisinart the bastard unless your to-hit is gutter trash. The White Raven one breaks the action economy to an extent, because it gives free attacks for easily made skill checks. That's not a good thing, but it can be useful just due to that fact.

Even though ToB classes are better than non-ToB melee classes, they're still melee classes, and as such, need some dumpster diving for weapons and feats and such.

JPM makes you set three caster levels on fire, getting in as Wiz 4/Warblade 1. You only get Devoted Spirit (which is swingy) and Desert Wind (which starts to blow by the time you've qualified for your second class maneuver). It's geared to be a blast gish, what with your free metamagic being Empower and Quicken on hit and the fire spell CL bonus. Your capstone ability is amusing because it outdamages a lot of the blasty spells you're expected to use as well as being a pseudo-Restoration effect. As it stands, you're a 16th level caster with a 13th level C and IL with shit for maneuvers who can go suicide bomber on people. While cool sounding, it's pretty lackluster compared to staying a caster or Lago's build.

The RKV has the same problem, except for the fact that a) he's running off of Divine casting, which rocks the house(and doesn't even have to take an initiate class, just set two feats on fire and get in at Cleric 4). b) He gets White Raven, which is awesome. c) The level 7 ability makes for more "fun with turn attempt abuse" by giving him the potential for $TEXAS Quickened spells, so if you really want to nova; you can fling (DMM) Quickened whatevers like the Fist of the Northern Star. From a game standpoint, that's lame, but pretty much better than anything JPM's got with a little setup and two levels earlier than JPM's quicken.

There's a lot of fluff and flotsam in this book (like the gorram Deepstone Defender), but that doesn't make it bad. It just means that there's...not a lot of goodness in it. The good stuff is really good, but everything else is most assuredly not.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:48 am

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten how much Lago hates the Winds Of Fate resource model. It's actually rather amusing how much.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:49 am

Edit: Hold up a second...

That was pretty ranty

... Hey man fuck you, you don't like my style? There's an ignore funtion now.

Feral Dreadlord:

Power is again a relative thing.
The fact that you're saying it's "trick" doesn't come online till level 9 is unacceptable is stupid. You're still not unable to play the game at any level.

they're still melee classes, and as such, need some dumpster diving for weapons and feats and such.

I'm sure I said something similar... If you're not allowed to dumpster dive if its Core + ToB then yeah play CoDzilla. Common Sense.

Lago... if its a thing you've got about the system them I'm sure I'm not going to persuade you different after 2 years of ToB.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:58 am

NineInchNall wrote:Ah, yes. I'd forgotten how much Lago hates the Winds Of Fate resource model. It's actually rather amusing how much.

I don't hate it. I'm starting to warm up to it, actually; my biggest problem with it is that when I ask 'what's going to be the in-game justification for this' I get some stupid hand-wave rather than them just going 'you try it, the universe recognizes your action, but it automatically fails/works at a reduced capacity'.

The Crusader's mechanic isn't awful, it's just that (until I realized what a huge bag of ass martial adept classes are now) the prime strength of MA classes is really hurt when you can't rely on your maneuvers in a pinch.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:59 am

Sir Ownsalot is screwed. What sort of idiot would take more than 2 levels of Bloodstorm Blade when he can take more levels of Warblade instead?

My recommendation would be to go Warblade 10 (unless you want to play with Bloodstorm Blade; Warblade 5/BB 2/Warblade +3 works there), there's not enough value in a dip into another class at these levels.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:02 am

Your style doesn't work if you're nigh-unintelligible. That, and you didn't really address my points at all. And you broke the board. And invalidated the rest of this point with your edit. And it's important when the trick is the main point of what makes the build (arguably) better than just saying fuck it and not jumping through hoops for your power. And you don't even need to bloody play CoDzilla if you can't dumpster dive, you can be a straight Warblade. Or a Rogue. With Assassin's Stance. The point of that part of my post is that the Feral Dreadlord build is much ado about nothing, not that it doesn't have game-raping power.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:25 am

Mask_De_H wrote:Your style doesn't work if you're nigh-unintelligible. That, and you didn't address my points at all. And you broke the board. And why go Crusader 4/Cleric 1/RKV X when you can go Cleric 3/Crusader 1/RKV X or just straight Cleric 4/RKV X and set the two feats aflame. You're a Cleric, you don't really need to build up for anything unless you're going to abuse DMM or want to be a Cleric Archer and not take Elf Domain/be an Elf.

I honestly don't even know why we're arguing, or why this has triggered your Fanboy Froths At Mouth Style.

I didn't adreess your points cause you started off saying I was rantish and I really wasn't talking to you anyway. You know so, fuck you. We're not arguing in any case, arguing would infer that I'm adressing your points we're just exchanging insults. We can stop if you like, but... we've reached the point of escalation. So where if goes from here is on you.

I will say, I do find what your saying is monotonous with "Well more cleric is better" to which I'm like

"Well no shit" CoDzilla is always generally better. Thats not news to any of us I'm sure. It occurs to me that you might not be reading what I said I said if Lagos major distaste was "you don't get what you want when you want" you can fuck around with RkV or Mulitclassing (which the book is somewhat friendly towards) and have the "I need this now" feats onhand. Still do something prudent like... I don't know compare to the tome books. You should be able to produce something appoximating a Tome Knight with a Crusader. Potentially even a Tome Marshal.
Further, White Raven Tactics fucks with the action ecnomy so does Moment in time, you can judge that as "broke" or "good" but your a fighter who suddenly give someone another turn and thats just fucking cool to have from a party perspective.

And invalidated the rest of this point with your edit

...annnnd that was not actually directed at your post at all, I decided to remove that because if Lago just doesn't like then he doesn't like it, and so.. yeah, I'm reasonable sure he's aware of RKV's Recovery and whatever so meh.
You're assault on the Feral Dreadlord is just... just .... odd...

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:32 am

Midnight_v, don't take offense to being called rantish.

Ranting is what we do here. Ranting is probably the only thing I'm known for, because Lord knows I haven't produced much useful material. But anyway.

Midnight_v wrote:Thats not news to any of us I'm sure. It occurs to me that you might not be reading what I said I said if Lagos major distaste was "you don't get what you want when you want" you can fuck around with RkV or Mulitclassing (which the book is somewhat friendly towards) and have the "I need this now" feats onhand.

Well, yes, you can, but that doesn't change the fact that the Crusader sucks.

Similarly, if you're using the OA feat-swapping options, the first two levels of monk are actually pretty fucking awesome. But that doesn't change the fact that the monk class on the whole is suboptimal.

For example, you could without too much trouble build a character that was, say, a Monk 2 / Fighter 2 / Samurai 2 / EWM 1 that used a spiked chain. The Monk levels would actually be really useful, but the monk class would still be a huge joke.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:40 am

Midnight_v wrote: ...annnnd that was not actually directed at your post at all, I decided to remove that because if Lago just doesn't like then he doesn't like it, and so.. yeah, I'm reasonable sure he's aware of RKV's Recovery and whatever so meh.
You're assault on the Feral Dreadlord is just... just .... odd...

Wait, so I'm not awesome enough to comment on something that I have an opinion on? Or enough to bother reading the edits I made to your edits?

;_;

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:41 am

Midnight_v, don't take offense to being called rantish.

Ranting is what we do here. Ranting is probably the only thing I'm known for, because Lord knows I haven't produced much useful material. But anyway.

Oh I see very well then.

Well, yes, you can, but that doesn't change the fact that the Crusader sucks.

Logically sound. Fair enough.
A. The class sucks.
B. You can figure out a working build of the class.
A. The class sucks.
Your A stands.
It doesn't give amazing class features or anything, It's all about the build with crusaders I think. Thats the thing we're I"m like I think you can make one comparable to the Tome class X or Y.
I think... I think I'd be willing to take the same game test with one.
Its just the whole "suck" thing seems so ... nebulous. See... I can't but crusader in ths same suck as... swashbuckler before daring outlaw.
I find it concievable playable.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:57 am

What I was trying to get at is though, like monk levels, a level or so of Crusader can be a bundle of goodness the actual concept of the class is just so much worse than a Warblade it's like, 'why bother'?

Its just the whole "suck" thing seems so ... nebulous. See... I can't but crusader in ths same suck as... swashbuckler before daring outlaw.

Well, hell yeah, I'd rather be a single-classed crusader before I was a single-classed barbarian or swashbuckler but the fact of the matter is that crusader is just so much worse than the Warblade in almost every way. And it's not like the Warblade was published in a different book either; they're in the same chapter, even.

Everything I've seen done competently with Crusader was done by taking as few levels in it as possible. You know, like a fighter or ranger. I have seen good builds with a majority of levels in Warblade or Rogue and they don't suck. So what's the Crusader's excuse?