Shau's ridiculously long Divine Power Review

[Pinniped]

Because there are people out there who will read the rules as written, take every single word of them literally, and then have their characters march around smacking a bag of rats as if that makes sense from any perspective.

Here have been some of the solutions proposed for the great cleave feat.

Solutions 1-4 all redesign one feat. Solution #5 (let there be a distinction between threats and non-threats) allows you to design powers that trigger when you slay an enemy, or when an enemy wounds you, or for every enemy caught in an attack, or etc., without making a bag of rats valuable again.

You know what? #5 not even a rule, let alone a solution; that's a naked codification of the Oberoni Fallacy. 'There's not a problem with the targetting system because there's a rule that lets you negate problems with the targetting system!'

How is it not a rule? Because it requires DM input? That just makes it not an algorithm.

[spasheridan]

You can. You say to your DM, "I use my ray of frost to freeze this water", and he says, "Okay." If he says, "No, that's not written in the rulebook, and we must obey the rulebook literally", then you have a bad DM.

Pinniped, your lack of understanding of the Oberani Fallacy is staggering.

YES, we can make up our own rules for the game. And we when we do that we stop playing 4th edition.

The rules for Ray of Frost state that it can only be fired if you aim it at a creature. If you aim it at anything else you cannot fire it. This is a core restriction to all powers - and an absurd one. But it is a fundamental aspect of how 4th ed operates,

BUT - we are now straying beyond divine power, so maybe you can start up a defending 4th ed thread to tell us how a good DM can fix this rule set.

[RandomCasualty2]

The rules for Ray of Frost state that it can only be fired if you aim it at a creature. If you aim it at anything else you cannot fire it. This is a core restriction to all powers - and an absurd one. But it is a fundamental aspect of how 4th ed operates,

Actually I'm pretty sure that somewhere, maybe in the 4E errata, it says that you can use any power you could normally use on a creature on an object as well.

As far as freezing water, I don't really think any game has rules for that. Even GURPS doesn't even have rules as to how much cold damage translates to water frozen. I mean, every RPG expects the DM to adjudicate things and expects that what you do may go beyond the rules. This doesn't suddenly mean that you're no longer playing the RPG because the DM had to adjudicate what happens when cone of cold comes into contact with a river.

[Kaelik]

The last line of that rule is "'Creature' or 'creatures' means allies and enemies both, as well as you." "As well as you" is redundant, there, unless "you" isn't included in either "allies" or "enemies".

Yes, it is redundant, because you is included in enemies. You can read the definition for enemy very easily:

"Any creature not your ally."

Are you a creature? Yes. Are you not you ally? Yes. Are you your enemy? Yes.

But more importantly, the English language is immaterial? Are you arguing that the DMG should be read like a religious text and run like computer code, with no provisions made for common sense?

Yes. When the rules say something is the case, you follow the rules. I may think it's common sense that if you can heal yourself with an at will, you can heal yourself out of combat back to full, but the fact that it's common sense doesn't override the actual DMG definition of valid targets.

So the very idea of "An at-will power that heals you when you strike an enemy (but doesn't grant free, unlimited healing when not engaged in battle)" sucks? How do you accomplish that without the distinction between a threat and a non-threat?

Yes. The Very idea of an at will power that heals you when you strike something (because striking an enemy is not something that you can do) but doesn't grant unlimited healing sucks. Something like that existing makes the entire game shittier by depriving it of logical coherence.

Except it's not like we're talking about an ambiguous situation, here, we're talking about a player "declaring" someone his enemy solely to exploit the mechanics. How's is that good gameplay or good roleplaying?

No, I'm talking about someone with a healing power using their healing power to heal people. I don't know why you think he shouldn't be allowed to use his healing power to heal people.

"I have a monkey in this crate, see, and since one of my 'allies' isn't aware of the combat, the surprise round..."
"No, stop being silly."

Looks a lot like a situation in which not having surprise round rules that are different from regular rules would be a good idea.

Does the entire game suck if people can take a move action in the surprise round?

[Starmaker]

It's logical (as logical as any of this can be) for a divine power to only function when doing the work of the divine. Slaughtering goblins who can't even begin to fight back isn't a particularly holy task.

Fuuuuuuuuck. D&D has a pantheon of gods, some of them are evil, and those that are good haven't traditionally tried very hard to follow through on their alignment. Hell, there has been (and perhaps still is) a god of murder, and if I'm a cleric of his, I have to be able to tear apart and eat defenseless elfs and halflings and get free healing.

When the DM has your character on a leash, the game sucks. If the way to prevent unlimited out-of-combat healing is to play mother may I with the DM, I'd take unlimited ooc healing any day of the week. Wizards cannot target water with ray of frost. That sucks, but at least it's a clearly defined rule. "You cannot use your powers unless you're doing God's work as defined adhoc by the DM" is extremely bad. It works with intelligent items but not with class features. And the 4e version - when you're currently in the process of saving the multiverse and everyone in it but the god won't give you healing except when you're unable to mount a spectral tiger or eat a conjured croissant - is beyond horrible.

And barbarians can rage whenever they want unless you tie rage to a specific condition like being hit for X or bloodied or whatever. While it's possible to be a dick story-wise and rule that the cleric can't buff Charisma and go screw cheerleaders, the DM can't measure a character's anger by some arbitrary criteria because that's not his own character. I'm angry whenever I say I am, subject to mechanical restrictions.

Also, on WoW: my shadow priest could kill a green elite but was absolutely powerless against high-level grays because they were "not credible threats" and she couldn't use her main combat spell on them. Lol, the irony.

[Data Vampire]

I started a new thread for targeting objects, Target: Creature and Objects In 4E

[TavishArtair]

If a cleric uses Sacred Flame against a goblin, an ally gets temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on a rock, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on a rat, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on an ally, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on that same goblin several levels later, an ally does not get temp hp.

The reason for this is obvious, because 4e curls up and dies if powers start working like you would imagine they logically would. But in fixing that 4e scraps anything like a sensible game world.

It's logical (as logical as any of this can be) for a divine power to only function when doing the work of the divine. Slaughtering goblins who can't even begin to fight back isn't a particularly holy task.

Cleric "fluff" such as it is in 4e is that cleric powers are already invested in them and are "blind" to what the cleric is using them for... that is, they can go rogue, because the ordination they have received is permanent.
I would be more likely to give ground to an argument that they could not gain levels/increase their powers, but they sure can use them regardless of what the gods think. They just usually don't, since, y'know, they usually made an agreement, and know they'll be hunted down otherwise.

[Psychic Robot]

Also, on WoW: my shadow priest could kill a green elite but was absolutely powerless against high-level grays because they were "not credible threats" and she couldn't use her main combat spell on them. Lol, the irony.

Not to derail, but what was your "main combat spell" and for what balance reason does the game not allow you to target greys?

[Username17]

I just want to get this out there: it's not WoW combat, it's JRPG combat. The combat healing powers are literally only available during the arbitrary combat sequences. You literally get into bullshit combats and keep combats that are essentially over with going in order to use your Draw over and over again. 4e D&D is Final Fantasy 8.

-Username17

[A Hammer]

Not to derail, but what was your "main combat spell" and for what balance reason does the game not allow you to target greys?

She's presumably talking about Spirit Tap, which gives major regeneration boosts for a little while after you kill an enemy within your level range. Not having access to it doesn't make fighting individual greys any harder, but it does make grinding much more frustrating and time-consuming.

[Starmaker]

Not to derail, but what was your "main combat spell" and for what balance reason does the game not allow you to target greys?

Face Melting itself . I play on a pirate server, and there's that annoying bug? feature? whatever.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Quick addendum:

If you're in it for the long haul and for some reason don't want to be a Divine Oracle (which is actually understandable, because laser clerics don't actually have that many vs. will powers) you pick up the Morninglord PP from the Forgotten Realms. They have a level 16 ability that makes any enemy they hit with a radiant power gain 10 vulnerability to radiant. There's a holy symbol in the Adventurer's Vault 2 that increases any radiant vulnerability by 5.

At level 16, your laser cleric can completely outdamage the sorcerer and warlock if they feel like it.

Now if only there was some way to add the 'radiant' tag to all of your powers... preferrably with your weapon slot because that's otherwise sitting useless. The mace of healing is good but since it's just a property and you're never going to attack with it you can just hold it in your shield hand.

Oh, wait, yes there is. There's the Crusader's Mace, which is a weapon that functions as an implement (which means that you can use stuff like Weapon Focus and Siberys Shards for it) and makes all of the powers you use deal half their damage in radiant.

So your laser cleric setup is something like this:

Gloves: Gloves of the Healer (L12 then 22, adds 1d6/2d6 extra points of healing you do to any healing power with the 'healing' keyword)
Armor: Healer's Armor (a level + 2 property, adds enhancement bonus to all powers with the healing keyword)
Shield: +1 Spiked Shield with that magic item property that increases the bonus to AC and reflex any light blade gives by +1
Shield Hand: Healer's Mace. You can't attack with it but you don't give a shit.
Main Hand Crusader's Mace/Hammer. Functions as a weapon (which means we can stick Siberys Shards and Weapon Focus on it) and adds the 'radiant' keyword to all of our attacks.
Symbol: Symbol of Divine Light. Increases the radiant vulnerability of any creature within 5 squares of you by 5. Level 17 item. Once you get it there's no need to upgrade.
Neck: Brooch of the Healer. Heals an extra point of damage per enhancement bonus when you use healing powers.
Belt: Healer's Sash. Gives surge-free +1d6 healing as an immediate reaction. Everyone in the party should have this, I'm not joking.


This is pretty much a closed build right now. There's still room for new rings, something in the arms slot, the feet slot, and the head slot but otherwise, yeah. There are still more slots to stick things on, but you get the picture. You're an incredibly potent healer and you're the third-best at dealing ranged damage in the game, second to blaster wizards and archer rangers. However, you are still way ahead of the invoker, warlock, ranged rogue, bard, artificer, and sorcerer on the damage front--especially if you decide to load up on the sustainable spells. And you're still the best at healing.

I think cleric has supplanted warlord as best leader variant. Battle Captains are still modestly better from, oh, level 21 on but for a huge chunk of the game clerics are where it's at.

[Doom]

Actually I'm pretty sure that somewhere, maybe in the 4E errata, it says that you can use any power you could normally use on a creature on an object as well..

I don't think the rules could say that, since it would make the Seal at-will give infinite non-surge healing at-will, which would be a bit much....so, the rules would have to clarify non-healing properties.

And this still would warp the world beyond all recognition, since many 'out of combat' at wills would generate extreme effects over time.

[Josh_Kablack]

But the rules DO say that:

Target [Addition] Player’s Handbook, page 57:

Add the following sentences to the end of the first paragraph: “Some powers include objects as targets. At the DM’s discretion, a power that targets a creature can also target an object, whether or not the power lists an object as a potential target.”

That's not the rules problem mang - it becomes impossible to break down doors or damage any non-creature object without that erratum.

And as for the pointless restatement of rule zero there, there's a thread around here where I suggest a half-dozen ways for a half-clever player to get around a hosey DM. The difference between getting +2 to hit a stationary target, a +2 to hit a helpless enemy being interrogated and a +2 to hit the last orc remaining after you've stunlocked it is merely shades of grey.

The rules problem is that the designers don't understand the system and therefore wrote the Divine Power at-wills to grant real healing instead of Temp HP. (See also Swordmage l6 utility: Unicorn's Touch) This does fundamentally alter the game by rendering healing surges meaningless, and it doesn't do it in the open and honest way that a ruling to ditch the concept would have - which is rather damning to the competence of the 4e design and development.

But don't fucking tell me that the rules "couldn't" say it.

[Lago PARANOIA]

But Joshiepoo, coming up with another laser and razor cleric at-wills would've been SOOOOOO HARD.

[Username17]

Oh, wait, yes there is. There's the Crusader's Mace, which is a weapon that functions as an implement (which means that you can use stuff like Weapon Focus and Siberys Shards for it) and makes all of the powers you use deal half their damage in radiant.

What the fuck?

Everything in 4e that cares what type of damage something is either adds or subtracts. Making half your damage Radiant is no different from adding the Radiant keyword to all of your damage. Except with more division for no reason.

-Username17

[Grek]

Not quite. If you have a Cold attack and make half of it Radiant, then attack someone who gets 10 points less damage from Radiant attacks and Cold attacks, then you get a total of -20 to your damage.

[Kaelik]

Oh, wait, yes there is. There's the Crusader's Mace, which is a weapon that functions as an implement (which means that you can use stuff like Weapon Focus and Siberys Shards for it) and makes all of the powers you use deal half their damage in radiant.

What the fuck?

Everything in 4e that cares what type of damage something is either adds or subtracts. Making half your damage Radiant is no different from adding the Radiant keyword to all of your damage. Except with more division for no reason.

-Username17

I hope you are criticizing the actual 4e item, not lago for bringing it up, since for the purposes of his radiant vulnerability 15, it could do one damn point of radiant damage and still work just as well.

[Lago PARANOIA]

shau:

I think reviewing the paladin might have some benefit to it, too.

The Laser-paladin variant, especially Hospitalers, have went from awful to playable, which is actually pretty amazing. It's like saying that a supplement came out that brought the monk up to a level of a fighter/paladin/tempest/knight of the middle circle. I mean, your Divine Challenge actually becomes strong enough now to hold the attention of an enemy.

Or you could be a Morninglord Laser paladin. 27 radiant damage on your divine challenge isn't going to be enough to convince the enemies to stop playing Smear the Queer. But if you have a +4 Bloodclaw Fullblade, +4 reckless gauntlets, and those aforementioned items and expansion options (you want a radiant-damage Siberys Shard instead and you now have Iron Armbands of Power) by level 19 you can do like 1d12+7(cha)+12(Bloodclaw)+4(enh)+4(item)+15(radiant vulnerability)+2(feat)+3(Siberys Shard)+8(power)= 1d12+55 damage. I mean, you still suck the dick of rangers as far as DPR goes but everyone does. The important thing is that you have the best DPR of any other melee class, including the fighter.

[Josh_Kablack]

Just looked at the update with Divine Power errata.

Here's the entire errata for the book:

DIVINE POWER
New Updates
Hero of Faith
Page 144: Add the following sentence to the second
paragraph, between the first and second sentences:
“The effect lasts until you hit the target or until the
target drops to 0 hit points.” This change is necessary
to limit the power of this feat.
Benefit: You gain training in one skill from the
avenger’s class skills list.
Once per encounter, you can use the oath of enmity
power. The effect lasts until you hit the target or until
the target drops to 0 hit points. You cannot switch the
target or extend the duration of the power in any way.
In addition, you can wield avenger implements.

So obviously that feat was the most overpowered thing in the book.

Because you know, that 11th cleric granting 69+3d6 healing per round to one ally, and 46+2d6 to all other adjacent allies is totally in line for burning a couple dailies.

And they totally don't care that the Skill Domain feat does what Heavy Blade Opportunity does, only better and also gives skill bonuses and is a tier lower with no feat nor weapon restrictions.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Now that Bloodclaw and Reckless weapons have been nerfed it looks like Morninglord + Radiant Weapon Users is now the DPR class of choice.

[Josh_Kablack]

But that doesn't kick in until 16th level.

I would think that charge-twinking would likely be the way to go for lower level games.

[Josh_Kablack]

And while I'm here, some thoughts and quibbles on Shau's insights:

NEW CHANNEL DIVINITY

Previously, you could channel divinity once an encounter to add a plus 1 an attack or save or to attack undead. Divine Power gives you a new option, Healer’s Mercy, which is so awesome I think I can only describe it with the aid of back up dancers. It’s a close burst 5 power that lets everyone in the area use a healing surge.

What the fuck man?

This is Divine Power now. I have Astral Seal, so why do I care about letting others spend their surges? While this is better than Turn Undead, it's also like every other clerical Channel Divinity power ever printed - inferior to the a +1 to hit with your big daily that Divine Fortune gives so you will never ever use it.

New Edition Muscle Cleric.

Same as before Righteous Brand dominates. Still, Recovery Strike will be the other power you take.

No.

Astral Seal will be the other power you take.
If you can get into melee, you are using Righteous Brand. Not only does this lower their defenses for the Righteous Brand you will deliver next round,
it's also the most accurate power which which to charge your Fist of Kord (AV) to double up the enhancement bonus for your Righteous Brand. It's still going to hit as much as recovery strike (since the built in +2 makes up for not getting the weapon prof bonus and the vs. Ref makes up for having a Wis bonus 3-5 lower) but it's going to heal 2 points more and be usable when your only move that matters isn't.

Bane subtracts your CHA from an opponent’s attack and defense. If you have high CHA you can really throw them off the range. Unfortunately, you probably don’t have the CHA. Exacting Utterance is a pretty awesome situational power. It gives the opponent a vulnerability equal to your wisdom (so five) and also gives your allies that attack him your Wisdom in temp hp. It does not sound that good, but remember that a ranger by himself can fire off four attacks by just using an action point and spamming his at will. Note that you can keep this effect up for two turns by delaying your turn.

Awesome power, but sadly the rules state that delaying your turn does not postpone when powers end - so you need Rangers or tempest fighters or Pit Fighters or Pre-errata Rain of Blows fighters around to cheese this.

Life Transference looks good but a closer examination reveals that its not. It is a very efficient spell, damaging you for the amount you surge for and giving an ally double that amount (plus healing lore). Also, it is encounter based.

If you still care about Surges post-Astral Seal, The trick is convincing your ally to have a Healer's Sash (AV) in their belt slot.
Here's the order of operations:
1. They spend a surge to charge up the belt
2. You lose HP = surge value
3. They gain HP = 2x Surge Value + Wisdom + cheese
4. Hey look, you just took damage, so they spend the charge from the belt - thereby healing you for your Surge Value + 1d6

net result: you healed what you lost +1d6, they healed 2x your surge + Wis + cheese and they spent 1 healing surge. Unless they somehow have nearly twice your surge value, this is more effiecient than Healing Word.

3rd Level Encounter

Hymn of Resurgance grants multiple allies saves even on a miss. If you don't have sacred flame, you take this. Also the defense penalty is untyped and does not go away by current wording, so either it's a save the group power that has a small chance of making your Righteous Brand more likely to hit later or it's part of your plan to use multiple stacking penalties to shread the Solo's defenses off the RNG

All Divine Power Clerics

Are you fucking retarded? Take Consecrated Ground, the power that makes death all but impossible.

While I'm with you in the DP added nothing worthwhile here, In games where allies tend not to get bloodied anywhere near the healer (ie my group) and or enemies bring loads of stun/daze (ie my group) Righteous Brand clerics want Weapon of the Gods - because it adds 1d6 radiant damage to their Righteous Brand, and helps Righteous Brand push allies even further off the RNG.

Muscle clerics might prefer Stream of Healing, which heals an ally for 15 plus WIS every time you accept a 5 hp kick in the balls

One ally with Armor of Sacrfice (AV) means that this heals everyone to full all by itself.
(or another cleric with Healer's Balm)

1. Starting on round 1 they take the 5/round on themselves (since the continuing damage happens at the start of your next turn you never take any, and no longer have to worry about this power not being able to self-heal)
2. You heal them 15+wis+cheese every Nth round, where N = 15 + wis +cheese / 5.
3. You heal other allies during the other rounds.

Also, on the subject of 6th level utilities, Divine Favor almost looks like a way to hit more often for more damage with Righteous Brand. Right up until you realize that it takes a standard action to turn on - so you're giving up a Righteous Brand to use it

Price of Violence is crap. The only real reason to take it is if your battles in 4e are over so quick that you feel you need more free action type effects. Tell me what you are doing if you feel this is true. It also has a tendency to fail to do anything. See, it lasts until the end of your next turn and it applies after their turn, so if they are slower than you they are actually blinded during their downtime between turns.

Unless they are multi-attacking or you plan to provoke OAs, that timing makes this useless.

As cool as that is, Rebuke Violence is even better.

Probably right about that.

But Dismissal does come with a Daze aftereffect and since I recently TPK'd my PCs with a Lamia, I want to point out that DIsmissal also turns off Auras and continuing non-attack damage effacts which Rebuke does not.

Divine Fury is your weak less wisdom dependant knock off of Spirit of Healing. Its weaker and can’t be moved, but zone based surgeless healing is so good that you might have to take this while any wisdom clerics in the area laugh at you.

I don't think so.

If I'm not taking Blade Barrier for auto-hitting murder pinball, my Righteous Brand dude wants the 5+wis+cheese / round regen of Divine Power that doesn't cost a standard action

10th level Utility

All Core Clerics

Mass Cure Light Wounds for wide area surgeless healing,

Wait what?

KoUV for laser clerics dude - walls that are transparent to you and your attacks but not to the enemies', can be moved around and don't eat actions to sustain.

but while were here let’s laugh at Astral Refuge which takes one ally out of the battle for 3 turns to heal 75 percent of their hp at the cost of 3 surges.

Yes, lets.

Divine Power Clerics

Couple decent options. Word of Vigor is like Healing Word with an area. Sacred Beneficence grants regeneration 10 + WIS to somebody, which is pretty damn unbeatable at this level. On the other hand it goes away if you become bloodied so you pretty much just glued a target on your ass.

The others are also worthwhile depending on party composition.

Healer's Balm may not look like much the timing of taking status effects off of allies is strong - the worst case is that you defer the nastiness for one full iniative count. The usual case is that you trade one of your actions for multiple actions of a teammate who can be more effective than you, and the best case is that you get to save against the effect before it does anything.

here's the normal sequence:
1. Monster hits ally with status effect(s)
2. ally takes ongoing damage/ loses actions / has penalties on his turn
3. ally makes save against status effect (or not)

here's the one where the healer "takes one for the team"
1. Monster hits ally with status effect(s)
2. Healer takes move and minor action, then transfers status effect to themself
3. Healer makes save against status effect (or not)
4. ally has full normal turn to act without penalties nor needing healing

Recall Ally is useful in that it has longer range than any of your healing, and does not require the target to be capable of moving on their own - so it's a good way to rescue an ally.
Alternately, it let's you burn your own move to get the Tempest/Ranger into melee with the guy what you just Righteous Branded

But first, lets take a quick overview of the Divine Domains. Divine Domain feats give access 2 feats that come in two flavors, Domain feats and Divinity feats. Domain Feats give a plus 2 bonus to some skill, and buffs certain at wills, so are rarely worth taking.
....
Domain Feats

Most of these are terrible

What are you smoking?

This is 4th edition - you *will* be "stuck" spamming at-wills at least some of the time. How the hell are feats that add even tiny bonuses to them a waste?

Furthermore, if you are a cleric with DP in the game, you are going to necessarily be ALL ABOUT either RIGHTEOUS BRAND or ASTRAL SEAL.

So a feat that works "when you use at will X" is going to be a feat that works "Whenever you are not stunned" for you.

I mean, you have to fast-talk the typical DM to get some of the domain combos you want (and also the right holy symbol) but jeez, I'll take the skill Domain's "Righteous Brand as a basic attack, thereby qualifying for charge bonus stacking, opportunity attacks and Bracers of Mighty Striking" over any other heroic tier feat even if I can't also get the sweet-sweet "+2 damage, scales with tier when using Righteous Brand" of the Death domain.

On the other side, Laser clerics get to increase all their defenses by 1 (stackable with messenger of peace paragon feature), impose a save penalty on their target whether or not they hit (hello stunlocks) and/or also grant temp HP to an ally whenever they use Astral Seal. All nice little bonuses to the move you were doing anyways, and a damn site better than skill training (esp as these feats also offer skill bonuses) and armor proficiencies.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What the fuck man?

This is Divine Power now. I have Astral Seal, so why do I care about letting others spend their surges? While this is better than Turn Undead, it's also like every other clerical Channel Divinity power ever printed - inferior to the a +1 to hit with your big daily that Divine Fortune gives so you will never ever use it.

At low levels, when it's quite possible for monsters to gangbang your party members in two rounds, sometimes Astral Seal is just not going to cut the mustard. It will be a complete replacement for everything early in heroic tier but at around level 5 Astral Seal is only going to be healing for about 13 hit points of damage and that's if the ally hits.

I did recommend swapping out Healer's Mercy (if the DM will let you; you technically can't retrain class features) after a certain point in the game but early in your career when you're hurting for ways to spend healing surges it's a lifesaver.

Astral Seal will be the other power you take.
If can get into melee, you are using Righteous Brand. Not only does this lower their defenses for the Righteous Brand you will deliver next round,
it's also the most accurate power which which to charge your Fist of Kord (AV) to double up the enhancement bonus for your Righteous Brand. It's still going to hit as much as recovery strike (since the built in +2 makes up for not getting the weapon prof bonus and the vs. Ref makes up for having a Wis bonus 3-5 lower) but it's going to heal 2 points more and be usable when your only move that matters isn't.

At higher levels, Recovery Strike doesn't heal all that much less than Astral Seal but also does damage, too. Astral Seal is the clear choice at lower levels since it heals so much more, but at around level 16 when both Razor and Laser clerics can heal +25 hit points for any Healing power I'd rather have Recovery Strike.

Finally, if you have access to Eberron and you're paragon-tier or above (maybe even earlier than that) it is your duty to grab the Dragonmark feat Mark of Healing. It gives any ally a saving throw who is the target of your powers with the Healing keyword. Which means that you have eliminated any reason for the party to want warlords, even Battle Captains, in the party before epic-tier (when they suddenly become uber-useful again).

[Josh_Kablack]

Oh, you take Healer's Mercy over turn undead in every game except the Halloween one - I just don't see it getting used much, if at all.

As for Astral Seal not keeping up at low level all that Wis + Cheese is also adding to the two Healing Words you are packing just for showing up


And I still don't get why you would use Recovery Strike, as anytime you could do that you could instead just use Righteous Brand - and every round you don't use Righteous Brand is another round your poor buddies are stuck on the RNG.

And good to know about the dragonmark - thanks