Why do DMs/ Game Designers Tamper with Game Mechanics?

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shadzar
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Post by shadzar »

Judging__Eagle wrote:In a world full of magic. Everyone is magic.
No they are not. Unless that is the shitty little setting you have made.
Tasslehoff Burrfoot: Hey! She cast that spell without using those funny words! Why can't you do that, all powerful mage?
Raistlin Majere: She's channeling the power of a god, you dolt. I'm wresting arcane energies from the very fabric of the universe - it's completely different.
So a human isn't made of magic, otherwise he would be wresting it from himself, and Goldmoon would be using her own rather than channeling a god.

Guess that fucks up your entire theory.

Cause if everyone was magic, then there would be no clerics, as there would be no need to channel a gods powers as you would have your own.
Halvarth: You humans use magic, but we Elves are a part of it.
If you want something from 3rd edition, WotC, and/or HASBRO approved context.

So no, everyone is NOT magic. Oddly dwarves are resistant to or immune to magic...so how could you resist or be immune to something you are?

You thinking is flawed, or you have set up your own game that is not D&D but some houserules junk that not everyone subscribes to.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus »

K wrote:
Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote:Hey, BBII:

Any chance for a take two of this thread, with a fresh, clean slate?

I think we all learned a valuable lesson today and a second thread would go along much smoother.
I'm not sure what lesson that is, but I can make a new thread, perhaps where the op is clearer.
I suggest putting Shadzar on Ignore, and then redoing the thread.
Seconded.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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TOZ
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Post by TOZ »

shadzar wrote:Cause if everyone was magic, then there would be no clerics, as there would be no need to channel a gods powers as you would have your own.
For the same reason you have to use a power outlet to use your computer, rather than the bioelectric current in your body. Just because you have it does not mean you have enough.
shadzar wrote: So no, everyone is NOT magic. Oddly dwarves are resistant to or immune to magic...so how could you resist or be immune to something you are?
You can't be resistant to something without being able to interact with it. Very rarely is there a character to which in completely null to magic. It cannot effect him, nor can he effect it.

A creature who is not magic in any way cannot use magic. If you're not magnetic, you can't attract a magnet.
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Leress
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Post by Leress »

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:
I'm not sure what lesson that is, but I can make a new thread, perhaps where the op is clearer.
I really couldn't tell you either, but were you talking about 2ed, 3rd, or in general?
Last edited by Leress on Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus »

Shadzar wrote:So no, everyone is NOT magic. Oddly dwarves are resistant to or immune to magic...so how could you resist or be immune to something you are?
Wow, you really take the cake this time. Are you just completely retarded? Really, simple ignorance is forgivable, but what you do, Shadzar, goes far beyond that. It's not that you don't know. It's that you are utterly convinced that you know the answers and have gone through insane, nonsensical and illogical rationalizations to come to your adamantly held beliefs that you will never let go of regardless of any evidence, reason, or common sense.

The "logic" of everything you say falls apart catastrophically under even the most rudimentary scrutiny. For example: Golems are immune to magic. Golems are animated by magic. Here's another example. Humans contain tons of living organisms. And yet they are immune or resistant to tons of living organisms. How can that be, you ask? It makes perfect sense to everyone but you. Why is that? Why can't you comprehend?

Well, it turns out that you just aren't that bright, Shadzar. And it would be a lot easier for everyone else if you would just accept it, because simple ignorance is a helluva step up from the position you're taking.
Last edited by Caedrus on Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

The lessons are:
  • Do not feed the troll.
  • Focusing the main concept of a thread in the beginning is a good idea. A few scattered ideas will either garner no response or a discordant mess.
  • If you have two main thoughts, generally make two threads.
  • For the love of sexy women, stop feeding the fucking troll.
-Username17
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Gnosticism Is A Hoot
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Post by Gnosticism Is A Hoot »

Maxus wrote:
K wrote:
Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:
I'm not sure what lesson that is, but I can make a new thread, perhaps where the op is clearer.
I suggest putting Shadzar on Ignore, and then redoing the thread.
Seconded.
Fuck it. Thirded. I've had it with that cocking wankface.
The soul is the prison of the body.

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Gelare
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Post by Gelare »

Gnosticism Is A Hoot wrote:
Maxus wrote:
K wrote:
I suggest putting Shadzar on Ignore, and then redoing the thread.
Seconded.
Fuck it. Thirded. I've had it with that cocking wankface.
In all honesty, the day I learned that "You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post." has substantially more interesting and coherent content than anything shazdar has ever written in his entire life, my own quality of life improved by a substantial margin.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus »

Gelare wrote: In all honesty, the day I learned that "You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post." has substantially more interesting and coherent content than anything shazdar has ever written in his entire life, my own quality of life improved by a substantial margin.
I won't say that. Sometimes he gets the glimmerings of a point, but I can't think of one off-hand.

However, I am finding it a lot easier to resist the impulse to look at his response to someone, for reasons which are in my sig.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

He's just not very intelligent.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

I think logic, or even the barest hints in imagination, breaks the troll's mind.

Sadly, that means I've got one recourse; no longer responding to someone who doesn't bother to read whole arguments, and only argues partial statements with bullshit statements.

shadzar, when you address my whole post, please tell me. I've reached my limit for your strawmen and partial rebuttals.

You're not on ignore, but that's because the enormity of someone's actions to have me place them on ignore are larger than you realize. Yes, I actually have some people here on ignore. It's actually some people that most people wouldn't realize. Obviously, I have my reasons.
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shadzar
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Post by shadzar »

@Caedrus:

And the force is just bacteria. Wait what? :whut:

So those people not affected by the force are NOT strong-minded or anything like that, just immune to the bacteria even though all living things contain the force.

Are you the one that gave George the idea for Jar-Jar Binks too?
Last edited by shadzar on Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

I think it's moderately amusing that he got so offended over Maxus's signature that he had to alter his own.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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shadzar
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Post by shadzar »

Not offended at all, just mocking him.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus »

Psychic Robot wrote:I think it's moderately amusing that he got so offended over Maxus's signature that he had to alter his own.
I broke my prohibition this once to see what he said. I'm not particularly surprised.

I find it a little amusing and a little sad on a couple of points.

1) It's not an insult to him. My signature really is directed at myself. Since I've made it, I've stopped myself from looking at his posts several times, and it hasn't been a full day yet. It really is aimed at preserving my own equanimity.

2) Shadzar's really taken to the 'suck a barrel of cocks' thing, hasn't he? He really must not actually read what posters here say, because otherwise he'd expand his list of things to say to people.

If he wants to view as me insulting him, that's cool. But I'll go one better--I'll describe him.

In the past week or so, I've directed a few people to the Den to various threads I thought were interesting, and honestly forgot Shadzar had posted in some of them (I mean, hey, I see his posts as a little message and a button normally. It slips my mind.)

They have uniformly asked who the hell Shadzar was and if he's always such a nonsensical nerdraging jackass who puts up super-long posts which don't actually say much. Well, I say uniformly. That's the composite view built out of their consensus.

There you go. Not only do people who regularly read and post in the discussions on the Den have a dim view of Shadzar, people who are seeing his posts for the first time, who have no feelings towards TGD members one way or another, immediately form a dim view of Shadzar. That is how objectively bad Shadzar's arguments are.

Oh, by the way, they genuinely liked J_E's dissertation on sneak attacks and knife-fighting, and Josh Kablack's list of the 'inspirations' for D&D has one of them resolved to make a straight Tome Fighter for the next time a game is going among our circle of friends.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

are there links for these places that you've directed people from by any chance?
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While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus »

Judging__Eagle wrote:are there links for these places that you've directed people from by any chance?
Sadly, no. They're college buddies and other people I keep up with over AIM or e-mail. They like D&D, and I occasionally point them to something interesting on here (like your Sneak Attack/Shanking post).
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

ah, i see.

I was wondering what these people's thoughts were in more detail mostly.

I find it interesting how my discussion on why 2e backstab is retarded; while shadzar's adamant defense of such a stupid concept, is not something that I'm alone in. I just wanted to see what points other people thought were valid, and which were not.
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While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
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Post by Maxus »

Judging__Eagle wrote:ah, i see.

I was wondering what these people's thoughts were in more detail mostly.

I find it interesting how my discussion on why 2e backstab is retarded; while shadzar's adamant defense of such a stupid concept, is not something that I'm alone in. I just wanted to see what points other people thought were valid, and which were not.
I'll ask 'em and pass it along.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by shadzar »

3tards liking 3rd maybe?
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by TOZ »

I don't know why I keep hoping to see real responses out of him. All he does is disappoint me with attacks and insults at other posters.

Edit: On Maxus' post, I often link interesting threads to my wife. And in much the same way she thinks he's an idiot. We both think he would get along wonderfully with a certain DM we had. And that we would never want to play with him either.
Last edited by TOZ on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Well, seeing as he has no idea why or how sneaking or ambushing has anything to do with real life combat, I don't see why his opinions on the issue matter.

We're talking about a person who seriously thinks that being in the dark, and behind a person is the only way that you can "surprise" a target. Honestly, that's a load of horseshit. I've ambushed people who could see me, or when it was plain daylight, or when it was plain daylight and they could see me.

If "some guy" in the real world can hide an oversized duck tape and pvc pipe weapon in the back of their belt, and seriously ambush a hostile enemy, who knew that I was an enemy, simply by walking up to them "unarmed", then drawing the weapon out and tooling down my target ... well then, I'd like to believe that a mother-fucking Rogue, whose bread and butter is ambushing fools should be better than me.

If D&D 2e seriously tells me that an "expert Rogue"; aka, a 1st level Rogue, is worse at ambushing an enemy and killing them than a real life person, who is not in spec ops, as well as having no infiltration and ambush training.... well then, I believe that the game in question is a pile of shit.

An expert ambusher in a game, should probably be better than some rube in real life, who is a rank amateur. Then again, that's just my idea. Who knows, maybe Rogues in 2e are supposed to be worse at sneaking around than a real life human on Earth is able to.

Yes, I'm defining myself as "some rube" and "an amateur"; and I'm getting better "results" in "Life: The game" at ambushing, than a Rogue did in 2e D&D.

The 2e Rogue is worse at ambushing people, than some dude who lives in the suburbs. It's in the rules.

Honestly, with rules like that I doubt that they're even fit for wiping the shit from our asses.

3rd Edition is at least remotely credible, when it comes to things like "how to stab a fool in the face, before they realize what you've done". As in, the rules allow the players to duplicate the real world in most of the situations where someone tries to ambush and shiv an other person.

Obviously, this point cannot be argued, and it has never been refuted. If it could be refuted, it would have been by now.

Let's face it, 2e replicates real life, worse than 3e does. At almost every instance, and specifically when it comes to stealth, and ambush. At the very least.

Given the problems that 3e has, and the way that people who defend 2e can't seem to see any sort of bigger picture; I'd say that 3e actually accomplished a lot when it comes to making the "ambushing" mini-game more reasonable and more importantly more realistic than every previous edition.
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While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
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Post by shadzar »

The problem is 3rd edition emulates real life circa 2000 when it was released, not representative of real life circa 400 BC ~1400 AD which 2nd and previous edition strive to work within.

3rd was built for that purpose. 3rd was built so d20 modern would work with the core d20 system, as well d20 future.

3rd was not made to work as a fantasy genre game, but an amalgam like GURPs.

More precisely 3rd was created form a GURPs-like system that COULD be used for any genre.

Some people want a game that fits a specific genre, and have separate for each genre they want. Others want a toybox where they can put all their toys: cowboys/indians, space/aliens, all in the same box and just dig to what they want.

Those wanting their toys all in one box, enjoy a system for that, those wanting more refined material for a specific genre/period of time will take multiple systems to use.

Multi-tasker vs uni-tasker.

Often the multi-tasker does well at doing its jobs that it is built for, but not exceeding in any of them, while a uni-tasker is made for one thing very well.

Swiss army knife with a screwdriver doesn't work for precision or confined space work due to its nature and design, while a long handled screwdriver could easily handle the task of an enclosed space by providing access from outside the space rather than within to hold the tool.

So if you are looking for the toybox where machine guns can be toted in medieval times, then d20 works for you. If you don't want that connection, then you find something specific that does not have machine guns accessibility.

When you say 3rd does sneaky rogues better, I find you are wrong, because you must not understand the genre in which they are operating in. Or you must not understand being sneaky, because you could not make it work before 3rd told you how to be sneaky.

"Free your mind, and your ass will follow."

The rule of being sneaky is learned by all as a child, but forgotten quickly as they grow up. It is even specifically taught in a manner a child can understand it.

Q: How do you catch a rabbit?
A: Hide and act like a carrot.

Therein lies all the rules you need to ever be sneaky. The entire foundation of sneaking is within that childish riddle/joke.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Psychic Robot »

The problem is 3rd edition emulates real life circa 2000 when it was released, not representative of real life circa 400 BC ~1400 AD which 2nd and previous edition strive to work within.
Often the multi-tasker does well at doing its jobs that it is built for, but not exceeding in any of them, while a uni-tasker is made for one thing very well.

Swiss army knife with a screwdriver doesn't work for precision or confined space work due to its nature and design, while a long handled screwdriver could easily handle the task of an enclosed space by providing access from outside the space rather than within to hold the tool.
When you say 3rd does sneaky rogues better, I find you are wrong, because you must not understand the genre in which they are operating in. Or you must not understand being sneaky, because you could not make it work before 3rd told you how to be sneaky.
I have no idea how any of these things are connected.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by erik »

Psychic Robot wrote: I have no idea how any of these things are connected.
Like a string of crap from a colon cleansing, they all came from the same place.
[must resist linking graphic example, must resist]
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