Smaller Skill list and no Int to skills?

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:36 am

Has anyone had luck with taking a character's Int Mod out of the skill point equation, upping the skill points per class by a point or two, and then reducing the number of skills and having it all kinda "work out"? For most people it doesn't seem like it'd have a huge impact, Rogues wouldn't really need super Int, and Wizards would take a mild hit I guess. Anything I'm missing?

I'm trying to put down some homebrew stuff for an E6 style game, and the two main things I'm looking at are the spells available and the skills people will use. Once I have those down I can examine things like how far towards [tome] level I should push the classes, and so on. In addition to the feat every 5k exp, I'll probably give out a skill point so that people can spread into other skills without having to devote Open Mind feats to it (though they can also do that if they want the extra points faster).

Version 0.2:
Skill List (most skills do generally what they do by the book, maybe a little more):
Acrobatics (Dex) (balance/ weak tumble)
Appraise (Int)
Athletics (Str)
Bluff (Cha)
Concentration (Con)
Crafts (Int) (single skill, builds any item, needed to build magic items)
Decipher Script (Int)
Diplomacy (Cha)
Disable Device (Dex)
Disguise (Cha)
Forgery (Int)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Heal (Int) (because it's essentially a doctor skill, so it should be int)
Hide (Dex)
Intimidate (Cha)
Knowledge (Arcana) (Int)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int)
Knowledge (History) (Int)
Knowledge (Nature) (Int)
Knowledge (Religion) (Int)
Knowledge (The Planes) (Int)
Listen (Wis)
Move Silently (Dex)
Perform (Cha) (3e style, 1 use per rank, all ranks apply to all uses)
Ride (Dex)
Search (Int)
Sense Motive (Wis)
Sleight Of Hand (Dex)
Speak Language (none)
Spot (Wis)
Streetwise (Int) (gather information and knowledge local)
Use Magic Device (Cha)
Use Rope (Dex)

Now, as the Tome suggests, skills are always purchased with 1 rank for 1 skill point. Cross Class skills still have a lower max ranks.

Skill points by class:
11 - Rogue
9 - Assassin
8 - Bard, Ranger
7 - Monk
6 - Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Knight, Marshall, Paladin, Samurai, Sorcerer, Soulborn

I'm considering the other Tome of Virtue stuff too, it would probably be:
7 - Soldier
6 - Incarnate, Totemist, White Mage

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:43 am

No one can evaluate your system without a firm commitment to how many skills you intend to have and the spread of effectiveness of the skills that you allow.

-Username17

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:48 am

Hmm, alright. I'll work on that, and should have a version up tomorrow then.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:12 pm

I agree that we'll have to see it, but conceptually speaking, it does get rid of weird side-effects like wizards with more skills than sorcerers and beguilers with more skills than anyone.

The thing I like about that approach is that it makes sense to me. I don't see how being smarter lets you learn how to jump on top of being able to sneak and climb. I can see getting some bonus on things like craft and profession (things you actually learn), but those skills don't really work in the first place. Assuming the game had a working craft system, it would be nice to see people getting bonus craft/professions for being smart.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:51 pm

Smart people learn skills faster. So they master 'High Jump' and 'Long Jump' in less time, then move onto 'Sneaky Mofoer'.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:33 pm

I'm fond of the 4e skill system, actually. It needs more granularity, but it's a sight easier than the 3e system.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:53 pm

What if you made the skill list longer rather than shorter.

Then you made ALL attributes add skill ranks.

And you could spend the bonus skill ranks from each attribute on skills keyed off that attribute.

You could even remove the actual attribute bonus from the skills at that point.

Of course it's all home brew crazy in that direction. But why not?

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:10 pm

Alright, first draft attempt:

Skill List (most skills do generally what they do by the book, maybe a little more):
Acrobatics (balance/ weak tumble)
Appraise
Athletics
Bluff
Concentration
Crafts (single skill, builds any item, needed to build magic items)
Decipher Script
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Disguise
Forgery
Handle Animal
Heal
Hide
Intimidate
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (History)
Knowledge (Nature)
Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge (The Planes)
Listen
Move Silently
Perform (3e style, 1 use per rank, all ranks apply to all uses)
Ride
Search
Sense Motive
Sleight Of Hand
Speak Language
Spot
Streetwise (gather information and knowledge local)
Use Magic Device
Use Rope

Now, as the Tome suggests, skills are always purchased with 1 rank for 1 skill point. Cross Class skills still have a lower max ranks.

Skill points by class:
11 - Rogue
9 - Assassin
8 - Bard, Ranger
7 - Monk
6 - Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Knight, Marshall, Paladin, Samurai, Sorcerer

I'm considering the Tome of Virtue stuff too, it would probably be:
7 - Soldier
6 - Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist, White Mage

Edited into the first post too.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:13 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:What if you made the skill list longer rather than shorter.

Could work, but the number of skills available to each stat is not at all even. It's also a bit of a hassle to remember about more skills during play. What skills would you add?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:03 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:What if you made the skill list longer rather than shorter.

Then you made ALL attributes add skill ranks.

And you could spend the bonus skill ranks from each attribute on skills keyed off that attribute.

You could even remove the actual attribute bonus from the skills at that point.

Of course it's all home brew crazy in that direction. But why not?

So... like... Dex adds skill points per level.

But can only be used for dex-based skills?

Would int be applicable to everything?

Also, Lokathor, removing mental ability from the ability to be good at something is a really big disconnect. Especially is strength is still helping you jump, and Int is still helping with knowledge skills.

If you remove one stat from the skill modifier calculation system, then all stats should be removed as well.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:21 pm

Uh, well, Int still adds to Search and Crafts and Knowledge and other appropriate skills, but it just doesn't give you more skill points.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:17 am

But, aside from class, how do you determine who will have learned more skills than an other person? Should all fighters have 10 int? or 9 int?

Should every class basically dump the int stat, unless they want the relevant ability modifiers?

Because, I'll be honest, I get into for the skill points, and the skill points alone.

What benefits will Int have that is equivalent to Con increasing your HP every Hit Dice, retroactively; or Str affecting attack, damage, grapple, and special movement types; or dex affecting AC and Initiative; or Wis affecting will saves and deception-negation skills; or charisma and interaction abilities?

Are you seriously saying that Craft (which you can take 10 on; and can get tools for), Search (bypassed by detect magic for magical traps; and at level 5+ that's a good chunk of them) and Knowledge checks are worth going first in a round, or hitting easier and for more damage; having a better init modifier; or retroactive HP?

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:26 am

Well you hit the nail on the head yourself I think. Interaction abilities aren't really worth any of those things either (init, hp, saves). Mind you, in E6 people also don't level past 6, so Con isn't as huge a deal as normal either.

Yes, anyone who wants to have a high int can have a high int, and anyone who doesn't will dump it. I'm comfortable with that.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:36 am

The problem with Int giving skill points is the Beguiler with more skill points than the Rogue, that's all.

Have you read any of the my-invention threads on skill solutions?

-Crissa

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:45 am

I saw "Why can't 3.x skill monkeys have nice skills?" back a week or two ago before more of the skills were filled in, and the "3.xth Edition: Skills" thread. Anything else I should take note of further back?

As to classes, any class not on that list of who gets however many skill points most probably won't be allowed in.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:03 am

The short answer is that "adding to some skill rolls" is not enough to justify an attribute. Even in E6 land, skill ranks go 0-9, attribute mods pretty much go 0-6, and item enhancement bonuses go 0-10. And because of this fact, Charisma is a bullshit attribute.

If you take Intelligence out of the skill point business, you've reduced it to the point of Charisma - an attribute that is universally a dump stat except in the cases of characters who need it to power their class abilities. So the question that thence comes up is simply: "why?"

Why would you want one of the attributes that has a reason for people in general to want it to no longer have one? Do you get a nickel every time someone leaves an attribute at 8 in Point Buy?

-Username17

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:15 am

Well, I usually don't use point buy for my games. I just have all the players roll 4d6 drop lowest 6 times and everyone uses the array that comes up (assuming it's at least 28pb).

I had forgot about the +10 items... I suppose it is a little lame to cut Int out of skills. The idea was to take a little MAD off of rogues/bards/rangers/etc.

I'll probably drop that part I guess. I'm keeping the cooler skill list though.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:02 pm

Removing the MAD from some classes is done by actually removing the MAD from those classes. Not by jiggering around with the base systems that the classes plug into, because then you start screwing with all of the classes at once.

Wizards having more knowledge than a rogue is... perfectly fine, and if anything in theme for both the classes. The Wizard won't go around picking up rogue-type skills; and the rogue will never hope to know what a Wizard can.

As for 'beguilers' being so high and mighty at being skilled.... honestly, that statement makes me shrug with apathy, and giggle at how it's not true. The RoW fighter was easily able to be more skilled than a beguiler; (Human, Nymph's Kiss, Maxed int/dex; and get Finess/Hordebreaker to worry about melee). While the ToV Soldier can just max int and say "fuck you" to any other class when it comes to skills learned.