Request: Raski and Lunar Exalted as villains.

[Lago PARANOIA]

From what I've heard, the Lunar Exalted could've made awesome, epic villains/anti-heroes if they were actually advertised as villains and if the mechanics weren't such ass.

One of my ongoing gripes about D&D is how they have the implication of an evil orc/goblinoid society with a complex if savage history but never actually go into depth. They're just a villainous race you have to kill for no reason.

Now, I'm not personally against the idea of a villain society, it's just that the aforementioned thing just smacks of laziness and D&D racism. The society of the 'savage' people actually needs to be portrayed as evil and wrong--not 100% baby-skullfuckingly evil, definitely some room for some grey or even white in there. But definitely evil. Something like The Empire in Final Fantasy VI or what you'd expect in the capital theocratic city devoted to Hextor Bane. Extremely high amounts of misogyny, anti-intellectualism, racial intolerance, contempt for more peaceful religions, totalitarianism, generational slavery, human sacrifice, so on.

Obviously this would require a re-imagination of our typical assumptions of D&D races. I was thinking more of a confederation of tribes with a rigidly-determined hierarchy. Lunars Transforming 'Werepeople' at the top, Pureblooded goblinoids at the upper-middle, (hobgoblins, orcs, ogre magi), 'less intelligent' races in the lower-middle (gnolls, lizardmen, neanderthals), cannon-fodder shorties at the bottom (goblins and kobolds).

Anyone interested in such a project?

[Username17]

I like the idea of fleshing out the "villains" to the point where you know why they do what they do and you know why you're fighting them.

Unfortunately, D&D took a wrong turn really early with that with the whole Tolkien thing. There are Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and even Hobbits on the "evil" side and there are no Orcs, Trolls, or Spiders on the "good" side. The net result is that apparently the bad guys have more racial tolerance and merit-driven acceptance than do the forces of goodness. That makes the moral position espoused by the book hard to justify.

Gygax took that shit and ran with it. Apparently you can't play a hobgoblin because you'd be kill-on-sight in the "good" villages, but there are still totally humans with black armor and class levels over on team monster. As one of the only data points we have to determine which side is right and which side is wrong, it's very poorly placed.

But honestly, I don't much like any of the Exalted stuff. The culture is, honestly, kind of retarded. I really don't think that basing anything off that setting is a particularly good idea. Let's face it: Team Rocket and Team Magma are more coherent villain groups than anything in official D&D or Exalted. You can totally see why someone would voluntarily become a Rocket Grunt and why someone would decide that the morally correct decision was to fight them.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

But honestly, I don't much like any of the Exalted stuff. The culture is, honestly, kind of retarded. I really don't think that basing anything off that setting is a particularly good idea.

Some people like the Dragonblooded culture, which gives a good attempt at giving us an evil empire with understandable motivations and a few feathers in their caps.

The Lunars just stuck out to me because of their (unintentional) deconstruction of that stupid Beautiful People Noble Savage Blithe Spirit archetype that still gets to be on Team Good for some reason.

[FatR]

I like the idea of fleshing out the "villains" to the point where you know why they do what they do and you know why you're fighting them.

Unfortunately, D&D took a wrong turn really early with that with the whole Tolkien thing. There are Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and even Hobbits on the "evil" side and there are no Orcs, Trolls, or Spiders on the "good" side. The net result is that apparently the bad guys have more racial tolerance and merit-driven acceptance than do the forces of goodness. That makes the moral position espoused by the book hard to justify.

Gygax took that shit and ran with it.

You assume, that orcs and co are in fact a race, as opposed to semi-autonomous organic killbots, with minds that have a huge "insert Evil Overlord's mind-controlling impulse here" slot in their minds. Well, to be honest, so did Gygax. Although, apparently, in his own games PCs had orc followers and shit, he just was bad at communicating his real playstyle, as usual. Not like anyone cared much, crawling dungeons doesn't really requite moral complexity beyond "they are on the opposing team Team Evil". But anyway, orcs, like half of evil races in DnD just happen to be evil. Because PCs need things to kill For some reason.

Apparently you can't play a hobgoblin because you'd be kill-on-sight in the "good" villages, but there are still totally humans with black armor and class levels over on team monster.

Let's be fair to DnD, in 99% cases they are powerful villains that hold their non-human followers practically in slavery. Because good races are harder to subjugate, or somesuch. Free "evil" tribes tend to be violently uncommunicable. Moreover, humans was the only race, descripted as sitting on the both teams, before racial alignments became blurry in 3e, and this was sort of human schtick.



As about the original question, yeah, DnD could use some megalomaniacal shapechanging fleshshapers with god complexes, that make "warrior" races, deliberately imbuing them with qualities that make them dangerous neighbors, indoctrinating them to worship their creators as gods and feel hatred and envy towards everyone else, so that they would be driven to prove themselves superior, and then unleashing rampaging hordes on the world. Because they can, because they want to prove something, and because having slave-people that serve you and worship you as a divine figure sure is fun. You probably can even do this using some of the existing evil races with minimum modifications. Yuan-ti come to mind. But the above-described confederation with ingrained racial pecking order works too. Rigid caste societies are easy to present as villainous, and here, particularly assuming that the whole thing runs on brute strength of people on top, castes are constantly reinforced by the very real differences in inborn ability.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Another of my gripes about D&D is that, especially with races, there is little attempt to make a distinction between people who are evil because of their upbringing and evil because of their nature. Sometimes you even get critters who fall into both categories (like Sahugin) which is all kinds of fucked up. It reached a ridiculous extent in 3E, where even the Monster Manual was unsure which side it truly supported. And don't get me started on the Mind Flayer paladin in BoED.

Vaarsuvius's familicide is ample enough evidence of the problems that this fence-straddling causes. Either this is an unforgivable crime that makes him one of the blackest villains ever or it's an amazing act of heroism that only came across as evil because--as usual--the writer assumes that because the character is a jerk then their viewpoint is wrong.

God, I am sure glad Order of the Stick has moved on past then. Being an OotS reader during the Therkla/Thieves' Guild arc was excruciating.

[FatR]

Morality in Order of the Stick is a gigantic fucking mess, which the author sorts out by fiat at least half the time. Because you cannot play DnD approach straight and subvert it at the same time, when you're actually trying to make a coherent story, as opposed to merely cracking jokes. Let's just forget about it...

[hogarth]

Vaarsuvius's familicide is ample enough evidence of the problems that this fence-straddling causes. Either this is an unforgivable crime that makes him one of the blackest villains ever or it's an amazing act of heroism that only came across as evil because--as usual--the writer assumes that because the character is a jerk then their viewpoint is wrong.

I believe the standard response is "the ends don't justify the means".

[Username17]

I believe the standard response is "the ends don't justify the means".

That response is weak sauce. Especially when the ends in the reported case are "kill all the chromatic dragons" and the means are "kill all the chromatic dragons."

You assume, that orcs and co are in fact a race, as opposed to semi-autonomous organic killbots, with minds that have a huge "insert Evil Overlord's mind-controlling impulse here" slot in their minds. Well, to be honest, so did Gygax.

Considering that they totally talk to people, have families with humans and go to town to trade and build stuff and shit, that seems like a really safe assumption. Like, really really safe.

-Username17

[IGTN]

There aren't any effects of his means other than his ends, though.

Seriously, his means are "use highly-selective magic." His ends are "kill the black dragons."

If black dragons are always evil, then he's actually doing the right thing. If they're not always evil, then he's a monster.

[mean_liar]

You assume, that orcs and co are in fact a race, as opposed to semi-autonomous organic killbots, with minds that have a huge "insert Evil Overlord's mind-controlling impulse here" slot in their minds. Well, to be honest, so did Gygax.

Considering that they totally talk to people, have families with humans and go to town to trade and build stuff and shit, that seems like a really safe assumption. Like, really really safe.

Depends on the source, though. In Tolkien they're immortal elves cursed by the setting's version of Satan, sort of like nephilim or something. By the time you get to Greyhawk they have kingdoms and are basically presented as a violent warrior culture that's only considered evil because they don't have a problem with killing people or because they worship evil gods that exhort them to act like assholes.

The presentation of orcs as a horde of mindless killers is a Warhammer thing.

[FatR]

Considering that they totally talk to people, have families with humans and go to town to trade and build stuff and shit, that seems like a really safe assumption. Like, really really safe.

-Username17

For DnD, but not for Tolkien, where orks degenerate and grow physically weaker over generations, when not juiced up by the current Dark Lord and mentally devolve to frightened animals if said Dark Lord bites the dust permanently. And this is not the only example of orcs (or orcs with serial numbers filed off, like darkspawn from Dragon Age) being supernaturally wired for doing bad things to others.

[hogarth]

If black dragons are always evil, then he's actually doing the right thing.

Maybe if you believe that all evil creatures deserve the death penalty.

But hey, I don't use alignment in my game, so why do I even bother trying to explain it?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Only if you believe that all evil creatures deserve the death penalty.

If you believe that evil creatures are like Dragonblooded or Order of the Stick goblinoids where it's either a feature of society or just a team designation, then no, they don't.

But D&D also applies its evil tags to creatures like mind-flayers, ghouls, and chromatic dragons, creatures that have effectively declared war on all living things. You can't negotiate with them or change their point of view because it's in their nature to be evil. So smashing their eggs and burning them alive is the best thing you can do because you'll save hundreds of lives. It's not just a case of going back in time and shooting Hitler, because it would be quite possible to make Hitler a model citizen who champions religious freedom and racial freedom. There is no way to make it so that a Black Dragon won't, if given enough freedom, horribly burn villagers to death for the lulz.

Order of the Stick waffles between these two viewpoints. Goblins are accepted as having hopes, dreams, and an ability to actually hold good in their hearts. But Roy and friends can chew through dozens of them out of convenience and they're not in danger of losing their good status.

Rich Burlew is smart enough to notice this contradiction and has had characters bring up this double standard, but he still insists on holding to it anyway. This is exactly why the Familicide was the stupidest point in the comic, because they tried to convince us what V did was Supremely Evil but A) nothing came from it and B) Roy and friends are guilty of doing exactly the same thing.

But hey, I don't use alignment in my game, so why do I even bother trying to explain it?

Alignment is--by FAR--the most discussed and integrated mechanic from D&D that Order of the Stick uses to build its setting, craft its characters, and tell its stories. So while I can understand you handwaving it for your own games (because it is retarded and depressing) it's just completely unavoidable when you talk about almost anything in this comic. Order of the Stick would be changed less by removal of frickin' D&D-derived magical spells than the removal of alignment.

[erik]

For DnD, but not for Tolkien, where orks degenerate and grow physically weaker over generations, when not juiced up by the current Dark Lord and mentally devolve to frightened animals if said Dark Lord bites the dust permanently. And this is not the only example of orcs (or orcs with serial numbers filed off, like darkspawn from Dragon Age) being supernaturally wired for doing bad things to others.

That's an interesting notion, but not one that I had ever heard of before (until I read up on it at the link below and it was just one of many notions).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29

Tolkien's view on the orcs apparently changed over time, and if he lived to be older, likely would have been subjected to further ret-conning.
At one time or another he considered them:
1) created by morgoth, from the dirt style
2) not created by morgoth, but rather twisted versions of elves
3) not versions of elves, but rather twisted versions of men
4) sentient beasts that started as animals and became humanoid tribal creatures that were only a threat when commanded by a dark lord (your notion)... and became tribal and unorganized... not beast, just lesser threats when free.
5) fallen maiar (*much* lesser balrogs, essentially)

Interestingly orcs were independent and in fact some orcs fought against sauron according to Tolkien. I found that wiki link an informative read.

I always wanted to play MERPS as a deserter uruk-hai who would not be anyone's tool, even Sauron's. It seems like the setting would totally allow it.

[edit: oops, I forgot to mention the fallen maiar, an even more obscure possibility]

[FatR]

That's an interesting notion, but not one that I had ever heard of before (until I read up on it at the link below and it was just one of many notions).

That's the notion that was actually put into LotR. Both Sauron and Saruman are outright stated to produce much stronger, tougher orc versions, for their armies (and, thanks the Wiki article for reminder, Sauron even made specialized types, namely trackers), compared to which orcs that lived outside of their immediate sphere of influence looked like piddly wimps. Also, behavior of orcs, trolls, and so on in the Sauron's army after Sauron keeled over, is desribed as that of ants who lost their queen. The entire force basically disintegrated immediately (except for human units), with orcs randomly attacking each other or instinctively ttrying to flee the sun.
Also, in LotR orcs are specifically mentioned to be corrupted elves. IIRC, Treebeard says it outright.

You're right, though, that Tolkien returned to this issue constantly in his notes. Probably because the thought that he put a sentient race that, as described, had no purpose but to serve as cannonfodder in a serious book was at least somewhat troubling to him.

[mean_liar]

I always wanted to play MERPS as a deserter uruk-hai who would not be anyone's tool, even Sauron's. It seems like the setting would totally allow it.

I will never be tired of orcs or minotaurs. Ever. They are too awesome, and games where the mechanics don't support making them awesome are terrible for their loss.

[RiotGearEpsilon]

You're right, though, that Tolkien returned to this issue constantly in his notes. Probably because the thought that he put a sentient race that, as described, had no purpose but to serve as cannonfodder in a serious book was at least somewhat troubling to him.

Are these notes online anywhere? They sound intriguing in the extreme.

[FatR]

Are these notes online anywhere? They sound intriguing in the extreme.

Tolkien left a massive pile of drafts, Middle-earth historical notes and other texts, which he wrote down for himself (as well as in letters to his friends, and so on), the vast, vast majority of which saw the light of day only after his death (in Unfinished Tales and The History of Middle-earth, which are interesting solely for hardcore Tolkien fans, and so are probably hard to find on the net). They are fragmentary and quite often contradictory, as they include drafts, and for certain points Tolkien never wrote down a definitive version anyway. The above-linked wiki article seems to be a good summary, though.

[Orion]

But honestly, I don't much like any of the Exalted stuff. The culture is, honestly, kind of retarded. I really don't think that basing anything off that setting is a particularly good idea.
-Username17

I'd be curious to hear your complaints about Exalted. When I skimmed through the books, (well, studied the core book in some depth, read the Compass of X very little), my reaction was basically just "Holy Shit this is awesome" mixed with "what crack were the rules guys smoking"?

Both reading and during my short-lived Exalted campaign I was more focused on mechanical problems than setting (and in the 4-5 session i ran we didn't really use the metaplot like at all).

As you can see on the other thread, I've started thinking seriously about how to "fix" exalted, so I'm definitely interested in how the premise fails.

[Username17]

Exalted chooses to earn my eternal ire at the very beginning of it misbegotten setting, where rather than jut being a fucking fantasy world, it elects to take time out of its day to give a creotard rant about how "scientists" are stupid heads and Exalted all takes place in Earth's past. Like Earthdawn, but with the retard factor cranked up to eleven and instead of using it as a stepping stone to claim more legitimacy for their etting they instead use it as a soap box to proclaim their unending hatred for the scientific method and enlightenment virtues. And honestly, most Exalted fans hit that and shake their head like they had a data read error and go on as if that shit never got said. But it fucking did, and if you think it was a one-time thing or a brain fart, then obviously you never read anything else by Justin Achilli, because it is all like that. Exalted starts as a creotard puff piece and never once repudiates that or rises above it.

But even when you ignore that the entire setting is offensive, the entire setting is offensive. You see, it's not about being all you can be, kicking ass, and chewing bubblegum. The people who have powers get them because they are chosen by god to be better than you and they get to walk all over you and that's good, and there's nothing you can do about it anyway because they can crush your entire nation for no reason. Not because they worked harder, or had a better idea, or even were in the right place at the right time. But simply because they were chosen before they were even born to be the natural, able, and rightful asskickers of everyone else, and there is absolutely nothing that any of the non-chosen can ever hope to do about that or to become chosen themselves. The common people do not count, and that is presented a if it was not only OK but desirable.

And now let's get to camel toe. Exalted's portrayal of women is something which would embarrass D&D or Valejo. Ed Greenwood wants to get his knob polished by young women and isn't afraid to tell people that. But he is afraid to put sexualized naked lolis in fursuits in his products. Exalted does not have that problem. Remember how we got super pissed off at the D&D versions that arbitrarily capped Women's Strength at a lower value than Men's Strength? Exalted manages to be more offensive than that.

And while we're on the subject of D&D, Exalted can't stop whining about D&D. They never really try to present their own vision. Everytime the authors say fucking anything it's just a jab at D&D. It's like they don't even care if their product stands on its own. And you know what? It doesn't. The Exalted world is a confusing mess that would tear itself to pieces in weeks or minutes.

Exalted is in essence Justin Achilli's Cerebus the Aardvark. A parody-turned creationist rant marred by rampant misogyny and wildly anti-humanist ideology that is in part a plaintive cry for people to pay attention to creator owned comics RPGs that are not D&D. And like Cerebus, any coolness that exists anywhere in the setting is so overshadowed by the offensiveness and retarded whining that I don't see anything that I would bother to salvage out of it.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

Exalted is in essence Justin Achilli's Cerebus the Aardvark. A parody-turned creationist rant marred by rampant misogyny and wildly anti-humanist ideology that is in part a plaintive cry for people to pay attention to creator owned comics RPGs that are not D&D. And like Cerebus, any coolness that exists anywhere in the setting is so overshadowed by the offensiveness and retarded whining that I don't see anything that I would bother to salvage out of it.

In both cases it's basically digging through shit to collect nickels: slightly better than digging through shit for pennies, but still almost certainly still not worth it.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Unless you like the feel of warm, soft cow turds squishing through your fingers. The nickels then are just a bullshit bonus.



Don't judge me.

But anyway, Frank, how come Exalted makes you so pissed off when it just recycles stupid fantasy stuff from other resources? The predestination of heroes? That's nothing new. The rampant sexism, up to and including the glorification/handwaving of rape? That's nothing new. The contempt towards methodological naturalism? That's nothing new. Is it the 'we're so dark and frickin' edgy challenging your moral assumptions' crap? That's nothing new.

[Username17]

But anyway, Frank, how come Exalted makes you so pissed off when it just recycles stupid fantasy stuff from other resources? The predestination of heroes? That's nothing new. The rampant sexism, up to and including the glorification/handwaving of rape? That's nothing new. The contempt towards methodological naturalism? That's nothing new. Is it the 'we're so dark and frickin' edgy challenging your moral assumptions' crap? That's nothing new.

In addition to being a perfect storm of cockery, the point here is that it actually went above and beyond. Sure, Powers & Perils makes women have less Intelligence and Strength in exchange for being more attractive and have better Intuition (seriously). And yeah, that's fucked up. And yeah, RIFTS brought in the idea of characters playing wildly different games because one won the birth lottery and got to be awesome while the other had to make do with being... a human. And yes, Tracy Hickman's mormon inspired vomit pisses creotard talking points all over D&D.

But actually raping it all into one shit bag is quite an achievement. While Dragonlance is all Herp-Durp about Heavenly Father, the fact remains that in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, science is real and helpful. There are mysteries to be discovered and such, but the basic truth of experimentally derived epistemology is not insulted. Gygax resented players for beating him, but not for knowing things.

But mostly, Exalted manages to take the most cringe-worthy aspects of other games and run with them to make a whole new color that looks like something that I might vomit up after dealing with several days of bowel obstruction.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

What if a smarter writer for Exalted actually ran with those elements but used them to parody the darker elements of heroic fantasy (and its earlier authors, by extension?), like in WH40K?

For example, they still ran pictures of underdressed lolis but put them behind hairy, grinning old men in the same outfit. Instead of going with the idea of predestined heroes you keep the elements have a bunch of evil gods essentially playing a videogame and rickrolling their creation. The idea that knowledge and combining weak forces is bad is kept in but it's taken to a completely ridiculous conclusion--libraries are actually storehouses of ashes from book burnings and when they hold elections the ballot boxes are for Sexy Jerky Sunsplitter and a rotting pear. Great Exalted Heroes wear shoes of baby flesh (made fresh daily!) and peasants are stumbling over each other to supply babies for their heroes' shoes. Stuff like that.

[Starmaker]

Exalted starts as a creotard puff piece and never once repudiates that or rises above it.

I assume Exalted is the past of World of Darkness, and as World of Darkness states that "vampires seriously exist on this here Earth", Exalted continues the trend.

and there is absolutely nothing that any of the non-chosen can ever hope to do about that or to become chosen themselves. The common people do not count, and that is presented a if it was not only OK but desirable.

It's been ages since I read the core book, but I remember it saying Solars do actually get Exalted for being awesome at what they do or, in case of teenagers, for wishing really hard to be awesome at their chosen profession. And that's how you get to kick hereditary nobility in the face. I think it's the Abyssal book that shits on this premise by introducing latent Solars. As for commoners, they don't matter in any story that deals with supers. In D&D, a commoner can adventure, gain experience and eventually reach level 20 and win D&D and a mercedes full of cheerleaders. Exalted starts with "Bam! you're awesome", which precludes any reliable way to become a Solar.

The camel toe is inexcusable. Even 4chan considers it obscene. Exalted is misogynistic and homophobic.