So I'm trying to figure out what dice system I want to use. I'm stuck on even deciding between die+modifiers vs TN, or a dicepool. I'm tempted to try some sort of d6 dicepool system, because d6s are easy to get and everyone tends to have them. And I'm not sure if I need a huge amount of granularity on single dice, but how would the math for such a system work out?
Maybe I should take a clue from the Power/Toughness divide. Power is the creature's offense, Toughness it's hit points. Clearly we don't want a player one shotting equivalent opposition (or himself), so a point of Toughness has to be worth multiple times what a point of Power does in damage.
I think every creature's Power and Toughness should rise as its level rises. So a 3 mana creature/player is, at its base, a 3/3; they can spend mana on abilities that can raise those or whatever, that's not important. But what should being a 3/3 mean?
I think that Power should determine the offensive power of abilities. So if you have a 1 mana Lightning Bolt, it can do your Power in lightning damage at range or something, and maybe have a side effect, the specifics aren't important. A 2 mana Fire Bolt might do your power in damage, and also set the person on fire, leading it to be better than Lightning Bolt, even though the up front damage is the same. And Wrath of God smacks everyone in a huge area for your power in damage and also does some other shit.
Wait, that wouldn't work, because then the best thing to do would be to spam 1 mana abilities over and over so you can do your mana times your power in damage per turn. Unless higher mana abilities were literally twice as good at minimum.
In D&D higher level spells just do better things, maybe I could work with that. Maybe the only staple damage dealing spells are 1 mana abilities, and you simply use higher mana abilities to do things that are better than damage. Like Necrosis does your Power in Black damage to someone, but Soul Siphon does the same thing and also heals you. Or maybe it can do a flat amount of extra damage.
I think I just wrote six paragraphs of brainstorming and I still have no idea where to go with this.
Magic: the Gathering: the RPG
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Cielingcat
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Since brainstorming got me nowhere, he's a bunch of fluff on what remains of the Phyrexians on the world that the game takes place in.
Druul is supposed to be the 9th edition Yawgmoth Demon, while Arek-val is the original one. Their concepts are "demon who hates Green" and "demon who hates White," because they're the founders of the Eastern and Western paladins.
Druul is supposed to be the 9th edition Yawgmoth Demon, while Arek-val is the original one. Their concepts are "demon who hates Green" and "demon who hates White," because they're the founders of the Eastern and Western paladins.
The Horrors of Phyrexia
If there is one word that can bring fear to a planeswalker's eyes, it is Phyrexia. Even a hundred years after the Nine Titans gutted that plane, the merest whisper of it can still instills fear in even the heartiest of them.
But to mortals, Phyrexia is not even a myth. Phyrexians, to most, are not even a concept-the word would be lost on most ears. Its creatures, when encountered, are thought of as undead or demons, or horrific artifacts from a time before time. And in truth, the horrors of the Nine Spheres are long gone; the Ineffable is dead and the plane is all but destroyed, and those few 'walkers brave enough to venture to the ruins find nothing but still ruins, their twisted shapes only hinting at the horrors that once dwelled there.
But Phyrexia is not just a myth to some. Even in the years proceeding the Dominarian Apocalypse, the Ineffable still sent out his minions to search the planes for artifacts of power to fuel his war machines. Such it is that some of the monsters of Phyrexia were not present for the detonation of Urza's soul bombs, and as such were spared.
This is how some of the beasts of Phyrexia have come to exist in the world. From annoying gremlins to monstrous constructs, they stalk the lands, performing their final tasks with a single minded obsession that borders on mindlessness. But there are darker things still, lurking in the shadows. For there were more than minions to survive the Apocalypse. Deep in the shadows of the world lurk being of immeasurable evil-demons of Phyrexia, the last members of Yawgmoth's Inner Circle.
Rivaling planeswalkers in their power, the demons of Phyrexia are few in number; what little is known about them pegs their number at two, said to be named Druul and Arek-val. What purposes these three had in the world, no one knows, but with the Ineffable's death, they were freed from his final commands. Left to their own devices, these monsters seek only one thing: to continue the work of the Father of Machines, and spread his vision of phyresis across the multiverse.
To that end, the demons of Phyrexia employ a number of servants, fostering cults across the globe. The greatest of these servants are the Eastern and Western paladins, dark knights of evil who champion the demons' cause. While to most, the paladins of the East and West are simply demon worshiping madmen, the truth of their dark cause is but a sword-stroke away. For under their blackened armor, the paladins have been blessed with Completion, the replacing of their weak flesh with Phyrexian machines. Their blood is glistening oil, their muscles steel cables; the only remnants of their once human bodies are the hearts that beat within the metal cages of their chests.
The Eastern paladins worship the demon Druul, and have one purpose-the eradication of all natural life that refuses to bend to the will of Phyrexia. To this end, they are gifted with great powers of death, and the Grandmaster of their order is said to be able to kill with naught but a word. They are the more forward of the two orders, and care little for intrigue or stealth, preferring simply to destroy everything in their way until nothing remains. The Eastern paladins make their home in the once great city of Karesh, which now stands as a dark necropolis, void of all life. At the center of Karesh is is a great castle, inside which their demonic master dwells.
The Western paladins are devoted to the destruction of all societies that dare to exist contrary to the will of Phyrexia. Copied from the designs of the Phyrexian sleeper agents, the Western paladins appear human on the surface, but beneath their perfectly manufactured skin they are the same mechanical horrors as their Eastern brothers. They infiltrate mortal societies, working to destroy them from within, like a malignant cancer. The Western paladins are far more subtle than the Eastern ones, and their powers lie mostly in the manipulation of the mind-albeit always in a destructive way. Their home lies deep under the earth, in the vat fields of Arek-val, where the demon works to complete those cultists he finds worthy.
Worse than the orders of worshipers, the demons of Phyrexia have at their employ horrific servants known, appropriately enough, as Horrors. From the war machines of the Apocalypse to the assassins known as Negators, Horrors never fail to live up to their name. Each one is grown and built to a different purpose, and their creation is, thankfully, extremely difficult for the relatively under-equipped demons. Rare as they are, each one is extremely powerful, and only the most seasoned of adventurers would ever dare tangle with one.
Druul, Demon of the East
The dark master of the Eastern order of paladins, the demon Druul is a creature of dark power, whose very footsteps spread rot and death. Like his brother, Druul is capable of controlling artifacts with ease, and can bend the will of even sentient ones to his purposes. Beyond that, he is a mage without compare, and perhaps the greatest wielder of black mana that the world has ever seen. No necromancer or demonologist, Druul's power lies in pure destruction, and it dwarfs even the might of the Grandmaster of the Eastern paladins.
Druul appears as a tall, gaunt creature, hunched over and possessing of two great, skeletal wings. From a distance he looks much like any demon, though a closer view reveals him as a twisted amalgamation of flesh and metal, with cables of black steel twisted across ancient bone-like tubes of glistening oil. In truth, nothing remains of his original form, though what that form was, only his dead Father remembers.
Arek-val, Demon of the West
The lord of the Western order of paladins, the demon known as Arek-val is a master of lies and deception. His very touch is said to bring either madness or to wipe one's mind clean-no one, of course, has ever reported the truth. While not as magically potent as Druul, Arek-val has tapped into the powers of blue mana, and his control of the minds of lesser beings is without compare. While he is perfectly capable of controlling anyone he wishes, he much prefers simply shredding thoughts until nothing remains but a blank slate upon which he can create his own, perfect minions.
Arek-val is smaller than his brother, and appears much more like an undead creature than demon. His frame is humanoid, though bereft of flesh; his actual body is covered in bone plates, likely pulled from his victims. Beneath them is the same mass of cables and glistening oil that makes up Druul's body, though in a much more compact form.
If there is one word that can bring fear to a planeswalker's eyes, it is Phyrexia. Even a hundred years after the Nine Titans gutted that plane, the merest whisper of it can still instills fear in even the heartiest of them.
But to mortals, Phyrexia is not even a myth. Phyrexians, to most, are not even a concept-the word would be lost on most ears. Its creatures, when encountered, are thought of as undead or demons, or horrific artifacts from a time before time. And in truth, the horrors of the Nine Spheres are long gone; the Ineffable is dead and the plane is all but destroyed, and those few 'walkers brave enough to venture to the ruins find nothing but still ruins, their twisted shapes only hinting at the horrors that once dwelled there.
But Phyrexia is not just a myth to some. Even in the years proceeding the Dominarian Apocalypse, the Ineffable still sent out his minions to search the planes for artifacts of power to fuel his war machines. Such it is that some of the monsters of Phyrexia were not present for the detonation of Urza's soul bombs, and as such were spared.
This is how some of the beasts of Phyrexia have come to exist in the world. From annoying gremlins to monstrous constructs, they stalk the lands, performing their final tasks with a single minded obsession that borders on mindlessness. But there are darker things still, lurking in the shadows. For there were more than minions to survive the Apocalypse. Deep in the shadows of the world lurk being of immeasurable evil-demons of Phyrexia, the last members of Yawgmoth's Inner Circle.
Rivaling planeswalkers in their power, the demons of Phyrexia are few in number; what little is known about them pegs their number at two, said to be named Druul and Arek-val. What purposes these three had in the world, no one knows, but with the Ineffable's death, they were freed from his final commands. Left to their own devices, these monsters seek only one thing: to continue the work of the Father of Machines, and spread his vision of phyresis across the multiverse.
To that end, the demons of Phyrexia employ a number of servants, fostering cults across the globe. The greatest of these servants are the Eastern and Western paladins, dark knights of evil who champion the demons' cause. While to most, the paladins of the East and West are simply demon worshiping madmen, the truth of their dark cause is but a sword-stroke away. For under their blackened armor, the paladins have been blessed with Completion, the replacing of their weak flesh with Phyrexian machines. Their blood is glistening oil, their muscles steel cables; the only remnants of their once human bodies are the hearts that beat within the metal cages of their chests.
The Eastern paladins worship the demon Druul, and have one purpose-the eradication of all natural life that refuses to bend to the will of Phyrexia. To this end, they are gifted with great powers of death, and the Grandmaster of their order is said to be able to kill with naught but a word. They are the more forward of the two orders, and care little for intrigue or stealth, preferring simply to destroy everything in their way until nothing remains. The Eastern paladins make their home in the once great city of Karesh, which now stands as a dark necropolis, void of all life. At the center of Karesh is is a great castle, inside which their demonic master dwells.
The Western paladins are devoted to the destruction of all societies that dare to exist contrary to the will of Phyrexia. Copied from the designs of the Phyrexian sleeper agents, the Western paladins appear human on the surface, but beneath their perfectly manufactured skin they are the same mechanical horrors as their Eastern brothers. They infiltrate mortal societies, working to destroy them from within, like a malignant cancer. The Western paladins are far more subtle than the Eastern ones, and their powers lie mostly in the manipulation of the mind-albeit always in a destructive way. Their home lies deep under the earth, in the vat fields of Arek-val, where the demon works to complete those cultists he finds worthy.
Worse than the orders of worshipers, the demons of Phyrexia have at their employ horrific servants known, appropriately enough, as Horrors. From the war machines of the Apocalypse to the assassins known as Negators, Horrors never fail to live up to their name. Each one is grown and built to a different purpose, and their creation is, thankfully, extremely difficult for the relatively under-equipped demons. Rare as they are, each one is extremely powerful, and only the most seasoned of adventurers would ever dare tangle with one.
Druul, Demon of the East
The dark master of the Eastern order of paladins, the demon Druul is a creature of dark power, whose very footsteps spread rot and death. Like his brother, Druul is capable of controlling artifacts with ease, and can bend the will of even sentient ones to his purposes. Beyond that, he is a mage without compare, and perhaps the greatest wielder of black mana that the world has ever seen. No necromancer or demonologist, Druul's power lies in pure destruction, and it dwarfs even the might of the Grandmaster of the Eastern paladins.
Druul appears as a tall, gaunt creature, hunched over and possessing of two great, skeletal wings. From a distance he looks much like any demon, though a closer view reveals him as a twisted amalgamation of flesh and metal, with cables of black steel twisted across ancient bone-like tubes of glistening oil. In truth, nothing remains of his original form, though what that form was, only his dead Father remembers.
Arek-val, Demon of the West
The lord of the Western order of paladins, the demon known as Arek-val is a master of lies and deception. His very touch is said to bring either madness or to wipe one's mind clean-no one, of course, has ever reported the truth. While not as magically potent as Druul, Arek-val has tapped into the powers of blue mana, and his control of the minds of lesser beings is without compare. While he is perfectly capable of controlling anyone he wishes, he much prefers simply shredding thoughts until nothing remains but a blank slate upon which he can create his own, perfect minions.
Arek-val is smaller than his brother, and appears much more like an undead creature than demon. His frame is humanoid, though bereft of flesh; his actual body is covered in bone plates, likely pulled from his victims. Beneath them is the same mass of cables and glistening oil that makes up Druul's body, though in a much more compact form.
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Username17
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Get the fuck rid of power and toughness, because you are operating on a much finer scale. You are not going to accept a group of sprites collectively having one hit point because you are keeping track of individual sprites.
Secondly, player characters are not going to get a lightning bolt for one mana just because you can get a lightning bolt for 1 mana in the card game. Remember, a player character is a single Orc. A 1 mana action for him is very much less than a 1 mana M:tG spell. Remember, when a single 1 mana Orc taps to attack the rival player and inflicts one damage, that's an invasion. It's all his combat actions for several days, and thus 1 mana spent dozens or hundreds of times in anger - and it's one lousy point of damage in the card game. Focus your sights on the actual scale of your project or you can't get anywhere.
For the tactical minigame, you need to decide how many choices people have, and how many die rolls you want people to make. You need to decide how detailed a map you want to use, and how explicit or freeform you want to make action possibilities. Since it's based on a card game, you could pursue card-game like positioning. Shadowfist and l5r have a good and workable locations model, and you could steal either one or hybridize them.
But seriously, to make a M:tG RPG you have to make an RPG, not M:tG. None of the cards depicting actions are going to be the actions people can take in the game. It's just not even relevant and you're going to throw your neck out trying to watch that tailspin of futility.
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Secondly, player characters are not going to get a lightning bolt for one mana just because you can get a lightning bolt for 1 mana in the card game. Remember, a player character is a single Orc. A 1 mana action for him is very much less than a 1 mana M:tG spell. Remember, when a single 1 mana Orc taps to attack the rival player and inflicts one damage, that's an invasion. It's all his combat actions for several days, and thus 1 mana spent dozens or hundreds of times in anger - and it's one lousy point of damage in the card game. Focus your sights on the actual scale of your project or you can't get anywhere.
For the tactical minigame, you need to decide how many choices people have, and how many die rolls you want people to make. You need to decide how detailed a map you want to use, and how explicit or freeform you want to make action possibilities. Since it's based on a card game, you could pursue card-game like positioning. Shadowfist and l5r have a good and workable locations model, and you could steal either one or hybridize them.
But seriously, to make a M:tG RPG you have to make an RPG, not M:tG. None of the cards depicting actions are going to be the actions people can take in the game. It's just not even relevant and you're going to throw your neck out trying to watch that tailspin of futility.
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Cielingcat
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I'm using the cards as inspiration for flavor, not for actual effects. Lightning Bolt is, at its core, a single target ranged attack-hardly something unworkable. It's completely workable as a single mana spell, even if copying the Lightning Bolt card isn't.
But let's see. What do I want combat to actually look like?
Let's say we have a one on one combat between an Eastern Paladin and a White Knight. Let's say both have 2 mana to play with. They roll initiative and the White Knight wins.
He spends his 2 mana casting Circle of Protection: Black to help him resist the Paladin's death magic. As this is a buff, there isn't any rolling involved. He then moves up to the Paladin and attacks him with a basic sword strike. He rolls to hit, hits, and rolls to wound to inflict however much damage.
The Paladin goes next. Seeing as he spent all his slots learning death magic, he uses Soul Siphon on the White Knight, which is weakened by the Circle of Protection. However, he hits and does damage, and so he's healed slightly as he sucks out the Knight's life. Maybes since Soul Siphon is an attack, he doesn't get to make a basic attack. Or maybe he does, I don't know. It's probably important but I can't decide how I want actions to work.
Maybe a d20-ish system could work out.
But let's see. What do I want combat to actually look like?
Let's say we have a one on one combat between an Eastern Paladin and a White Knight. Let's say both have 2 mana to play with. They roll initiative and the White Knight wins.
He spends his 2 mana casting Circle of Protection: Black to help him resist the Paladin's death magic. As this is a buff, there isn't any rolling involved. He then moves up to the Paladin and attacks him with a basic sword strike. He rolls to hit, hits, and rolls to wound to inflict however much damage.
The Paladin goes next. Seeing as he spent all his slots learning death magic, he uses Soul Siphon on the White Knight, which is weakened by the Circle of Protection. However, he hits and does damage, and so he's healed slightly as he sucks out the Knight's life. Maybes since Soul Siphon is an attack, he doesn't get to make a basic attack. Or maybe he does, I don't know. It's probably important but I can't decide how I want actions to work.
Maybe a d20-ish system could work out.
Last edited by Cielingcat on Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Username17
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This is muddled thinking. No, it's worse than that, it's actively sabotaging you. Fucking stop it. The inspiration is creature abilities, not instants or sorceries. Lightning Bolt can't be a 1 mana spell, because a Prodigal Sorcerer poke is a 3 mana spell. Get it? Spells aren't cards. The biggest spells are tapping a creature.Cielingcat wrote:I'm using the cards as inspiration for flavor, not for actual effects. Lightning Bolt is, at its core, a single target ranged attack-hardly something unworkable. It's completely workable as a single mana spell, even if copying the Lightning Bolt card isn't.
Now fucking cut it out with looking at instants. At all. It's less than useless, an it's ruining your project.
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But Frank, there are creature cards specifically made to mess with instants. They are an important thematic/mechanical part of M:tG. Creatures that target abilities are much more rare as well. The ability to pop a Giant Growth or a Lightning Bolt on a creature should be a part of the game, because they comprise perfectly valid effects within a battle of creatures, planeswalker or no. It's vital to the flavor to have those things show up.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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Username17
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Those are the meddling of what is essentially gods, characters in the game world can't do any of that shit. If you're looking for the flavor of circles of protection, lightning bolts, giant growths and pestilences you are dealing in the flavor of shit that individual Ironclaw Orcs can't do a fucking thing about. You are, in short, not making a game where the PC is a White Knight or even a Northern Paladin - it's game where the PC is a Planeswalker.Mask_De_H wrote:But Frank, there are creature cards specifically made to mess with instants. They are an important thematic/mechanical part of M:tG. Creatures that target abilities are much more rare as well. The ability to pop a Giant Growth or a Lightning Bolt on a creature should be a part of the game, because they comprise perfectly valid effects within a battle of creatures, planeswalker or no. It's vital to the flavor to have those things show up.
For an RPG where the players are an Orcish Champion, you are concerned about whether the PC is swinging his bulky axe or drawing back his powerful bow. You are concerned whether he is kicking an enemy down the stairs or tipping over a table. You are not concerned with whether someone will buff them by playing Righteousness, because you aren't playing anyone who is playing any cards!
If you want the feel of playing magic cards, the protagonists aren't the orcs. You wouldn't worry about the individual combat actions of individual orcs and you would worry about what the Planeswalkers were doing to influence the battlefield, because you'd be playing the fucking Planeswalkers.
On an entirely thematic note: I think that embracing the part of the story with Ultimate Evil Yawgmoth as the embodiment of Black is a horrible mistake. Because it's totally evil, and thus totally boring. There are a lot of versions of Black stuff that are morally ambiguous or just plain regular dudes who happen to be sneaky, swamp dwelling, or undead. There doesn't seem to be anything the matter with the Moriok Tribe or the Rats. Even the Zombie Masters seem to be pretty chill dudes if you don't mind the dead animation thing. People seem to come out basically OK when raised by Woebearers.
Since people are going to be using characters drawn from every color, playing up the "colors hate each other" aspect is a shit plan.
The fundamental problem I am seeing with this project is basic lack of understanding that the character is going to be a Human Rogue such as a Moriok Scavenger or Rigger. And so the game is going to revolve around shit that a single Human Rogue can do without any aid whatsoever from or attention paid to any Planeswalkers. And furthermore that another player in the same party is going to be an Elven Warrior like a Wayfinder or a Dryad or something.
If you talk about Giant Growth, like at all, the game isn't playable at the scale discussed. If you make the colors non-miscible the game is unplayable full stop.
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Cielingcat
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I don't think I can agree that Giant Growth makes the game unplayable at the scale I envision. D&D works perfectly fine with the concept of Polymorph, even if every implementation has been shit.
I'm not planning on implementing a Giant Growth that makes a 1/1 creature into a 4/4 creature. I don't see any reason why the concept of a spell that makes you huge and tough destroys the ability of the game to work on a mythic fantasy scale.
The Lightning Bolt I'm talking about is the D&D where it does a (meaningful in this case) amount of lightning damage to people, not the one that wipes Northern Paladins off the map. The Giant Growth is one that makes you big and strong so you can arm wrestle giants-but in the end you're like 20 feet tall at most, so you're still part of the tactical minigame, albeit a very large part. Just like D&D isn't ruined by the Giant Size spell, Magic won't be ruined by Giant Growth.
(Also, if there's one thing I will be adamant about it is the inclusion of Phyrexia. That was literally my favorite storyline in Magic's history and writing that out is unthinkable. That said, the embodiment of black mana are totally undead and demons, who can be pretty chill as long as you don't mind them eating people or whatever. The playable black races are going to be the Zombie Lords, Vampires, and Ghouls, and while they're not generally nice people it's entirely possible to be a nice person while being one. It's just not easy. I considered adding in rat people, but I personally just don't really like them very much.
I just didn't finish writing up my black creature fluff because I got hit with a burst of inspiration in the Phyrexian department.)
As far as playable races go, I was thinking Undead, Fairies, Elves, Beastmen, and Humans, which each corresponding to one color (though they're free to be other ones.) Undead are of course animated by black magic, but they don't actually need to use it ever, especially since in my (unfinished) writeup ghouls and vampires are just the result of curses and so . Fairies are tricksters and illusionists by nature, but they're perfectly free to pursue necromancy instead. Elves are connected to nature and all that hippy bullshit, but if they want to not do that and instead be crazy burn-it-all pyromancers they can do so, even if other elves may not like it. And so on.
The exemplar monsters for each color would be Demons for Black, Djinn (this one, not this one) for Blue, Beasts for Green, Dragons for Red, and Angels for White.
I'm not planning on implementing a Giant Growth that makes a 1/1 creature into a 4/4 creature. I don't see any reason why the concept of a spell that makes you huge and tough destroys the ability of the game to work on a mythic fantasy scale.
The Lightning Bolt I'm talking about is the D&D where it does a (meaningful in this case) amount of lightning damage to people, not the one that wipes Northern Paladins off the map. The Giant Growth is one that makes you big and strong so you can arm wrestle giants-but in the end you're like 20 feet tall at most, so you're still part of the tactical minigame, albeit a very large part. Just like D&D isn't ruined by the Giant Size spell, Magic won't be ruined by Giant Growth.
(Also, if there's one thing I will be adamant about it is the inclusion of Phyrexia. That was literally my favorite storyline in Magic's history and writing that out is unthinkable. That said, the embodiment of black mana are totally undead and demons, who can be pretty chill as long as you don't mind them eating people or whatever. The playable black races are going to be the Zombie Lords, Vampires, and Ghouls, and while they're not generally nice people it's entirely possible to be a nice person while being one. It's just not easy. I considered adding in rat people, but I personally just don't really like them very much.
I just didn't finish writing up my black creature fluff because I got hit with a burst of inspiration in the Phyrexian department.)
As far as playable races go, I was thinking Undead, Fairies, Elves, Beastmen, and Humans, which each corresponding to one color (though they're free to be other ones.) Undead are of course animated by black magic, but they don't actually need to use it ever, especially since in my (unfinished) writeup ghouls and vampires are just the result of curses and so . Fairies are tricksters and illusionists by nature, but they're perfectly free to pursue necromancy instead. Elves are connected to nature and all that hippy bullshit, but if they want to not do that and instead be crazy burn-it-all pyromancers they can do so, even if other elves may not like it. And so on.
The exemplar monsters for each color would be Demons for Black, Djinn (this one, not this one) for Blue, Beasts for Green, Dragons for Red, and Angels for White.
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So, if I'm getting this right Ceilingcat, you're talking about the rough equivalent of making summoned creatures (elves, humans, undead, and what not) the playable races, and you want them to be able to cast spells with the flavor of spells cast by Planeswalkers, right?
So, an elf (not a Planeswalker) casts Lightning Bolt, but this spell is not the equivalent of something that will strike anything with a toughness of three or less dead in one shot, correct? It's just the flavor of shooting lighting to deal damage, and not a direct comparison to the one red mana instant card baring the same name.
If I understand that right, I don't see why this couldn't work. Granted, it will take you a crapton of time to convert all of those spells into scaled down versions that mortals can wield.
So, an elf (not a Planeswalker) casts Lightning Bolt, but this spell is not the equivalent of something that will strike anything with a toughness of three or less dead in one shot, correct? It's just the flavor of shooting lighting to deal damage, and not a direct comparison to the one red mana instant card baring the same name.
If I understand that right, I don't see why this couldn't work. Granted, it will take you a crapton of time to convert all of those spells into scaled down versions that mortals can wield.
An RPG inspired by M:tG is hardly irreconcilable, so I don't see the need to be that upset at the idea. Robby Pants has it down
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I think you should consider having two tiers: Planewalkers tier and Individual tier. Planewalker tier would be about unit combat, and Individual tier would be about individual creatures.
Planewalkers, however, should be statted out only in the Planewalker tier. In other words, it would be impossible to play a planewalker in the Individual tier.
I thought for some time that such a system would make sense for D&D, with characters advancing to higher tier about 10 level, but it seems essential for a Magic the Gathering game.
Planewalkers, however, should be statted out only in the Planewalker tier. In other words, it would be impossible to play a planewalker in the Individual tier.
I thought for some time that such a system would make sense for D&D, with characters advancing to higher tier about 10 level, but it seems essential for a Magic the Gathering game.
"Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat."
I suppose its not really "Magic the Gathering: The RPG" any more though, which may disappoint some people. Its more "DnD with a MTG flavour". Which is fine, but its not Magic the RPG.
If you want to go this way, you can have the players gain abilities with names and flavour taken from popular magic cards, starting with Lightning Bolt attacks and Holy Strength buffs, and scaling up to Mind Twist SoD's and Time Walks (Stops).
If you are more interested in the flavour and cool idea's in MTG than actually directly simulating any part of a MTG game then you could use other elements, like representing powers with cards that are "played" during a battle, or having players accumulate mana throughout the fight in some fashion. You could take from the "ante" mechanic and have players absorb some power or ability from defeated enemies, in a highlander quickening riff.
Really this is probably an easier game to make than Magic:RPG but i don't think it would have the same wow-factor for a lot of people.
If you want to go this way, you can have the players gain abilities with names and flavour taken from popular magic cards, starting with Lightning Bolt attacks and Holy Strength buffs, and scaling up to Mind Twist SoD's and Time Walks (Stops).
If you are more interested in the flavour and cool idea's in MTG than actually directly simulating any part of a MTG game then you could use other elements, like representing powers with cards that are "played" during a battle, or having players accumulate mana throughout the fight in some fashion. You could take from the "ante" mechanic and have players absorb some power or ability from defeated enemies, in a highlander quickening riff.
Really this is probably an easier game to make than Magic:RPG but i don't think it would have the same wow-factor for a lot of people.
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Cielingcat
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Red Rob, that's pretty much it. I want to write a heroic/mythic fantasy game set in the Magic setting-not an rpg based on around the Magic card game. It might lack the wow factor, but to me, it's something I've wanted to play for years now. Basically, I want to bring to life the Magic books, rather than the cards.
CHICKENS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO COCAINE, SILKY HEN
Josh_Kablack wrote:You are not a unique and precious snowflake, you are just one more fucking asshole on the internet who presumes themselves to be better than the unwashed masses.
Which means you need to ignore pretty much all cards other than creatures, and maybe lands, and think about writing in Planeswalker tier.Cielingcat wrote:Red Rob, that's pretty much it. I want to write a heroic/mythic fantasy game set in the Magic setting-not an rpg based on around the Magic card game. It might lack the wow factor, but to me, it's something I've wanted to play for years now. Basically, I want to bring to life the Magic books, rather than the cards.
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RandomCasualty2
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Yeah, it's really like MtG: the campaign setting.Red_Rob wrote:I suppose its not really "Magic the Gathering: The RPG" any more though, which may disappoint some people. Its more "DnD with a MTG flavour". Which is fine, but its not Magic the RPG.
And if you were gonna run it, I'd figure you'd probably want to use BESM or something, simply because it's going to be a lot easier to implement high powered races like vampires, shivan dragons and that shit in a system like that.
But like Frank said, you're not really going to even worry much about shit like allocating mana, because you're not operating on a planeswalker level. So pretty much it's more or less going to be a game that plays like BESM or D&D or whatever with a little magic flavor fit into the campaign world.
Also another interesting thing to consider for magic flavor. Despite how powerful the planeswalkers are, the actual wizards of the setting are pretty damn weak in combat. Most of them are 1/1 creatures, so as ironic as it may sound, you probably don't even want a system with powerful casters like D&D. Because while a hurloon minotaur is no match for a planeswalker, he can pretty much reliably chop up Ertai, wizard adept or a prodigal sorcerer. So you're actually playing a game where big creatures matter, and that game is probably not D&D.
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RobbyPants
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The game's very inconstant in how it handles this. many cards are single creatures and many are entire squadrons of creatures. For example, the Prodigal Sorcerer is a 1/1, but so is Mon's Goblin Raiders. So, pinging aside, that sorcerer is the equal in combat to a group of goblin raiders. On top of that, he can zap them all deal without ever engaging them in combat.RandomCasualty2 wrote:Despite how powerful the planeswalkers are, the actual wizards of the setting are pretty damn weak in combat. Most of them are 1/1 creatures, so as ironic as it may sound, you probably don't even want a system with powerful casters like D&D. Because while a hurloon minotaur is no match for a planeswalker, he can pretty much reliably chop up Ertai, wizard adept or a prodigal sorcerer. So you're actually playing a game where big creatures matter, and that game is probably not D&D.
I think you'll have a hard time designing a meaningful game while trying to take the power and toughness of each creature/group of creatures into account. If I were doing this, at most, I'd take the name and flavor of the cards, and nothing else. Thinking in terms of power and toughness is almost certain to be a huge pitfall in this project.
Last edited by RobbyPants on Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cielingcat
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Yeah, the power/toughness thing was just an idea I had that I already discarded after thinking about it.
What I do know is that the thing that determines your power as a character is your mana. So any 2 4 mana characters should be able to contribute equally.
What I do know is that the thing that determines your power as a character is your mana. So any 2 4 mana characters should be able to contribute equally.
CHICKENS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO COCAINE, SILKY HEN
Josh_Kablack wrote:You are not a unique and precious snowflake, you are just one more fucking asshole on the internet who presumes themselves to be better than the unwashed masses.
Currently this sounds a bit like a re-skin of DnD with Mana = Level. Is this the way you want it to go, with the players doing basically DnD-ish things (wandering around a fantasy world solving problems mainly through fighting and gaining power) and gaining basically DnD-ish abilities (Mainly combat powers which begin fairly mundane and scale to awesome world shattering power)?
Because if so, DnD sounds like a good place to start. Maybe a conversion rather than a complete new system. Each time you "gain a mana" (go up a level) you gain a new "level appropriate" ability to pick from your colour chart. This way most of the donkey work is done for you on a basic system level and you have a game you know (kind of) works. You get to skip straight to the fun parts, designing the cool races and powers.
If this isn't what you are looking to do, perhaps doing some kind of design document listing what you are hoping for in a general sense from this game would help people get more of a handle on how you want it to work.
Because if so, DnD sounds like a good place to start. Maybe a conversion rather than a complete new system. Each time you "gain a mana" (go up a level) you gain a new "level appropriate" ability to pick from your colour chart. This way most of the donkey work is done for you on a basic system level and you have a game you know (kind of) works. You get to skip straight to the fun parts, designing the cool races and powers.
If this isn't what you are looking to do, perhaps doing some kind of design document listing what you are hoping for in a general sense from this game would help people get more of a handle on how you want it to work.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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Cielingcat
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That's pretty much what I want to do, yeah. The same general idea as D&D, but I don't really like D&D's system; I want something with a lot more freedom of choice in regards to abilities and such.
A design document could help, I'll start on that.
A design document could help, I'll start on that.
CHICKENS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO COCAINE, SILKY HEN
Josh_Kablack wrote:You are not a unique and precious snowflake, you are just one more fucking asshole on the internet who presumes themselves to be better than the unwashed masses.
Take a look at Mutants and Masterminds. Mana can be the power level.Cielingcat wrote:That's pretty much what I want to do, yeah. The same general idea as D&D, but I don't really like D&D's system; I want something with a lot more freedom of choice in regards to abilities and such.
A design document could help, I'll start on that.
So I was perusing the web for content related to an M:tG RPG and I stumbled onto this thread. This has been on my mind for a while, so I had to register and reply.
Warning: I ramble.
I agree with a lot of what has been already stated. This project needs a firmly defined scope: either the players are Planeswalkers casting spells we all know and love, or they're mortals without access to those powerful magics.
From the sounds of it, you want them to be individuals within the setting, not Planeswalkers, so we'll go from there. It would probably be best to compare each player's character to Legendary characters in the card game (not specific cards, just the concept of Legendary creatures in general) as opposed to non-Legendary creatures (like a Canyon Minotaur). They're going to have names, persistent history, and abilities above and beyond the norms of their race (if they didn't, why would they be the focus of the story?).
Another important clarification is that a creature with zero abilities (in the card game) does not necessarily have zero abilities in an RPG. In the card game, it's easy to see why a Craw Wurm has a power of 6 and a toughness of 4. It's a large, thrashing, limbless (and presumably hungry) dragon. It's also easy to admit that the Wurm in the RPG probably wouldn't have many abilities or combat options. But look at a Legendary Wizard like Johan. Why is Johan a 5/4? He's a Human Wizard. Nothing in his card's text-box explains his abnormally high statistics. I'm sure I'm not the first to propose that a card's "power" is a representation of its prowess in combat, which may be caused by (but not limited to) strength, ferocity, skill, guile, tactics, and combat-oriented minor magic. Maybe Johan is bolstered by demonic allegiances, or perhaps he's experimented on himself with dark magics. Or maybe he's just really good with a quarterstaff and has a strong immune system. My point is, the cards don't tell the whole story; the explanation for the statistics are open to interpretation a majority of the time.
I agree that there's no advantage to using an actual P/T system. My above paragraph was just to show that the RPG's scope will be much more narrow than the card game, and as such a lot of details (which are omitted in the card game) will need fleshing out. For example, did you know that Johan has been a world-renowned crafter of magical bracelets and charms for almost 150 years, using only the highest-quality ingredients and an ancient family technique? I just made that up, but it's the kind of thing that might matter in an RPG, but is completely useless in the card game.
I really like the potential of a Mutants and Masterminds conversion here. One of my favorite aspects of that system is the ability to create basically any power you can think of within a (mostly) balanced framework. M&M is a race-less and class-less system. You can decide that your character is an Orc Archer and purchase your statistics/abilities accordingly. Or you can be a Bionic Half-Jellyfish Shaman. Or whatever. It wouldn't be that difficult to have some racial templates if they were really desired, though. It's not as easy to just say "Orcs get +2 Strength" because stats in M&M don't scale linearly like in D&D. For example, there's a small difference from a 9 to a 10 strength, but a huge difference from a 29 to a 30 strength. But you could do more miscellaneous things, like bonuses to certain skills, bonus feats, etc. Or you could just make any differences be in-game. Access to certain guilds, social interaction, etc.
With this method, there would be no "knight list" or "wizard list" when players choose abilities. If they're a Barbarian-type character, but decide they want to be able to sheath themselves in a coat of ice, they can gain that ability with little fuss. One potential flaw to this method is that there's no continuity between characters. But since every Legendary character in the card game is completely unique (in terms of abilities), this wouldn't be unexpected.
Also, the powers in M&M are vague enough that you can just call them whatever you want. You can have a Blast power at a certain rating, and just claim that its a lightning bolt.
Warning: I ramble.
I agree with a lot of what has been already stated. This project needs a firmly defined scope: either the players are Planeswalkers casting spells we all know and love, or they're mortals without access to those powerful magics.
From the sounds of it, you want them to be individuals within the setting, not Planeswalkers, so we'll go from there. It would probably be best to compare each player's character to Legendary characters in the card game (not specific cards, just the concept of Legendary creatures in general) as opposed to non-Legendary creatures (like a Canyon Minotaur). They're going to have names, persistent history, and abilities above and beyond the norms of their race (if they didn't, why would they be the focus of the story?).
Another important clarification is that a creature with zero abilities (in the card game) does not necessarily have zero abilities in an RPG. In the card game, it's easy to see why a Craw Wurm has a power of 6 and a toughness of 4. It's a large, thrashing, limbless (and presumably hungry) dragon. It's also easy to admit that the Wurm in the RPG probably wouldn't have many abilities or combat options. But look at a Legendary Wizard like Johan. Why is Johan a 5/4? He's a Human Wizard. Nothing in his card's text-box explains his abnormally high statistics. I'm sure I'm not the first to propose that a card's "power" is a representation of its prowess in combat, which may be caused by (but not limited to) strength, ferocity, skill, guile, tactics, and combat-oriented minor magic. Maybe Johan is bolstered by demonic allegiances, or perhaps he's experimented on himself with dark magics. Or maybe he's just really good with a quarterstaff and has a strong immune system. My point is, the cards don't tell the whole story; the explanation for the statistics are open to interpretation a majority of the time.
I agree that there's no advantage to using an actual P/T system. My above paragraph was just to show that the RPG's scope will be much more narrow than the card game, and as such a lot of details (which are omitted in the card game) will need fleshing out. For example, did you know that Johan has been a world-renowned crafter of magical bracelets and charms for almost 150 years, using only the highest-quality ingredients and an ancient family technique? I just made that up, but it's the kind of thing that might matter in an RPG, but is completely useless in the card game.
I really like the potential of a Mutants and Masterminds conversion here. One of my favorite aspects of that system is the ability to create basically any power you can think of within a (mostly) balanced framework. M&M is a race-less and class-less system. You can decide that your character is an Orc Archer and purchase your statistics/abilities accordingly. Or you can be a Bionic Half-Jellyfish Shaman. Or whatever. It wouldn't be that difficult to have some racial templates if they were really desired, though. It's not as easy to just say "Orcs get +2 Strength" because stats in M&M don't scale linearly like in D&D. For example, there's a small difference from a 9 to a 10 strength, but a huge difference from a 29 to a 30 strength. But you could do more miscellaneous things, like bonuses to certain skills, bonus feats, etc. Or you could just make any differences be in-game. Access to certain guilds, social interaction, etc.
With this method, there would be no "knight list" or "wizard list" when players choose abilities. If they're a Barbarian-type character, but decide they want to be able to sheath themselves in a coat of ice, they can gain that ability with little fuss. One potential flaw to this method is that there's no continuity between characters. But since every Legendary character in the card game is completely unique (in terms of abilities), this wouldn't be unexpected.
Also, the powers in M&M are vague enough that you can just call them whatever you want. You can have a Blast power at a certain rating, and just claim that its a lightning bolt.