DDO

[Judging__Eagle]

So, I'm thinking of making a haggle-bitch.

I was looking up how the skill works after handing in crappy item after crappy item (seriously WW gave better rewards than some of these marketplace dungeons), and while the differences aren't large, they aren't small. If I'm making hundreds of plat NPCing trash loot, then even a small amount of leeway in buying and selling is going to go a longer way.

The thing is, I'm split between either a sorcerer, or a bard/Rogue.

I'm leaning towards rogue1/bard19, with maybe a level of Sorcerer to get a bigger spell point pool; and be a healer, buffer, that maxes search and disable device.

I notice that Elite dungeons are really the way to go, and for those you need both de-trapping, and as much healing and buffing as you can muster.

I did Catacombs twice yesterday, once on hard, and once on elite. My Rogue 1/Ranger 5 was a lot of fun to play, but it was also a long grueling part at times trying to grind down mobs, I really appreciated every single buff that I could get, and noticed lots of buffs active at once.

At the same time, having a good de-trapper is really obvious, traps at Elite tend to one-shot most PCs, doing as much as over 100 damage in a single strike, at level 7 (elite level 5, so supposedly CR 7).

In hindesight, buying wands of Command Undead would have been really wise to use on the largest skeleton warriors we were facing (we must have killed about 100 skeletons in the second last dungeon; and there were about 4 dungeons in the chain; although some are much shorter; and a much shorter chapter at the end. It's a long chain. The quest rewards sort of sucked though.)

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

I tried installing that huge DDO package, twice, and it failed to installed. I thought they catered to Windows XP! Well, I won't be playing this game.

[Judging__Eagle]

Hmm, that's odd.

However, I'm using Vista, so I wouldn't know any better.

Maybe check their forums?


Selling:

Also, I reccomend to anyone who is just NPCing trash magic items to the brokers to get some Haggle boosting items; and even look for an item that lets you cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself (+4 cha for a few minutes; cheaper than an actual +4 cha item, and better than wands or scrolls in the long run).

Since you only have 1 auction slot with a free account, and most items -are- trash anyway; you only keep the really awesome things, then auction those

Buying:

Most of the items that I get are usually a deal, and a portion of what the 'average' cost of those items are worth; I got a Giant's Bane Knife for like 9k gp one time; and that's a retarded item at level 7, b/c you're fighting tons of giants, and it counts as a +5 weapon that adds +3d6 more damage vs giants).

Actually, I like how itemization is like in this game. Does it continue like this for the end game, is probably a good question.

[shau]

I'd give this a shot as well, but unfortunately I have a lot of problems with my internet right now. No MMORPGs for me unless I can find one that can deal with me being dropped every 15 minutes or so.

[Roy]

Hmm, that's odd.

However, I'm using Vista, so I wouldn't know any better.

Maybe check their forums?


Selling:

Also, I reccomend to anyone who is just NPCing trash magic items to the brokers to get some Haggle boosting items; and even look for an item that lets you cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself (+4 cha for a few minutes; cheaper than an actual +4 cha item, and better than wands or scrolls in the long run).

Since you only have 1 auction slot with a free account, and most items -are- trash anyway; you only keep the really awesome things, then auction those

Buying:

Most of the items that I get are usually a deal, and a portion of what the 'average' cost of those items are worth; I got a Giant's Bane Knife for like 9k gp one time; and that's a retarded item at level 7, b/c you're fighting tons of giants, and it counts as a +5 weapon that adds +3d6 more damage vs giants).

Actually, I like how itemization is like in this game. Does it continue like this for the end game, is probably a good question.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking about itemization.

The cost of the items depends on what it is. The Giant Stalker's Knife is mainly so cheap because it's common, so you rarely have to pay more than market value. It's even useful later as giants are fairly common from 10-16 as well.

Most of the good items are on the AH for stupidly high prices though.

Most of the REALLY good items are not. They're bound to character or account, so your only option is to find them. Many, but not all of these are raid items.

Now sometimes you can buy parts of the items, but these tend to be stupidly overpriced.

Just to give you an idea...

The best weapon in the game is called a Mineral II Greensteel. Weapon type varies, but it's usually Khopesh. Dwarves like Dwarven Axes, Barbarians sometimes go for Greataxes, classes like Rogues often go for Rapiers but for the most part the Khopesh is king.

This weapon does:

+5 enhancement.
+1 die size to damage, 1d10 in this case.
Considered Evil aligned for DR purposes... useful in exactly one quest.

+1d6 acid damage.
+2d6 holy damage.
+4d6 holy damage on a critical hit.

Stoneskin 2/rest, CL 16th.

Third property varies. Some people like Acid Blast (4d6 on a natural 20), some people like Exceptional Wisdom +2 (stacks with everything but itself). It's a good idea to get +4 insight to AC on the offhander.

Keen.
Transmuting.
+1d4 extra damage.
+8 hardness, +80 durability.
1-2 other properties I forget.

The problem with this weapon? You need around oh... 60 different components to make it. The price of the components varies from around a few thousand gold for the really common stuff you'll probably just find anyways, to a few million for the rarer items. Were you to go and buy everything you needed you would require something on the order of 40-50 million gold at least. So even though you technically can buy 90% of what you needed it isn't practical, and grinding it out is also slow even if you cheat the 66 hour raid timer.

There are a few weapons better in specific situations, but that weapon is either the best, or not much worse than the best vs just about anything. Most of the other items that top it are other types of Greensteel, since it's very customizable. But is it really worth it to do that grind again just for something you'll only rarely use? I think not.

[Judging__Eagle]

Info on that end-game weapon is greatly appreciated.

I've seen descriptions for those crafted weapons, but haven't read the details for them yet, since I'm not at that point of the game yet.

[Rathe]

Hey guys,

Just started on Khyber, trying to decide between a Dwarven Cleric with fight'n abilities and a Human Ranger/Rogue who's sorta following the Exploiter build.

I'm finding that the Cleric, as usual, is pretty good with the bashing and casting in the low levels. The rogue/ranger is having a tougher time at it (although I love being able to open treasure chests) and finds it a bit more challenging.

Do those characters change as the game progresses?
Are those what you'd recommend for a newbie to DDO?

-Rathe

[hogarth]

Hey guys,

Just started on Khyber, trying to decide between a Dwarven Cleric with fight'n abilities and a Human Ranger/Rogue who's sorta following the Exploiter build.

Personally I split the difference with my current character: a Rogue 1/Cleric 6.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well, no matter what, you need to have the skills to bring to the group.

My own rogue 1/ranger 7 character is a strictly DPS build; I completely forgoe any trapping or searching skills; as well as stealth.

I tell people this in advance, and they give me no grief. When the only people who can out do my kill score are 3 levels higher than me, and everyone my own level has, at most, 50% of my total kills in every mission, I don't really worry about not being a de-trapper. I've been able to solo some of the mini-bosses in elite just with popping Rogue Attack Haste and a Rage ring. Watching people rush up to 'help' me, is usually kind of funny. Although, I will always try to dance monsters into a Firewall if it's cast, free deeps, is free deeps; and I'm all for it.

My skills are in: UMD, Balance, Jump, and Spot, everything else doesn't help my character at being able to do DPS.

If you're making a cleric, just seriously, go for a healer build, and be a bastard. People need you more than you need them, so you can pick and choose who you group with. Lazy healer is a remarkably easy way to level up a character. I honestly recommend healing, or being a sorcerer, for people that don't like to be very active in combat.

The need for 'tanks' isn't so great; a high con build with moderate/superior fortification will tank trolls and even hill giants fine. It's the crits that really get you, not the normal damage.

I was doing a few of the House J and House P giant and troll hunting missions; the giants can sometimes knock me down, but they don't deal enough damage to 1-shot me, or even two-shot me.

[Roy]

Hey guys,

Just started on Khyber, trying to decide between a Dwarven Cleric with fight'n abilities and a Human Ranger/Rogue who's sorta following the Exploiter build.

I'm finding that the Cleric, as usual, is pretty good with the bashing and casting in the low levels. The rogue/ranger is having a tougher time at it (although I love being able to open treasure chests) and finds it a bit more challenging.

Do those characters change as the game progresses?
Are those what you'd recommend for a newbie to DDO?

-Rathe

Later on Clerics stop being a viable melee. Of course they get Cometfall, Blade Barrier, and Implosion so no one cares.

The other guy will have a progressively easier time in melee, especially vs favored enemies.

[Rathe]

Quick question (that I probably know the answer to) are monks viable at all in this game (without obscene raid loot)?
I know that you would definately want to wait for the 32 point buy, because of MAD issues, but besides that is it possible to build a decent Monk?

[xXOblivionXx]

Quick question (that I probably know the answer to) are monks viable at all in this game (without obscene raid loot)?
I know that you would definately want to wait for the 32 point buy, because of MAD issues, but besides that is it possible to build a decent Monk?

I'm not all that experienced, but from what I've seen, most monks are useless.

[Judging__Eagle]

Monks are a dip for armour from what I see.

Most monks IG tend to suck, I'm not sure if it's b/c of the class, or their gear, or the player. I've seen, like... one, decentish monk. While I've seen tons and tons of decent fighters, rogues, etc.. I'm guessing that the class is limited.

[Roy]

Monks got improved a LOT. But enough? I don't think so.

Remember that Greensteel? Well, there's no Greensteel Handwraps, so unarmed Monks lose a lot of DPS, and using a Monk weapon made of Greensteel means losing a lot of DPS anyways.

For a while there were no Transmuting/Metalline Handwraps either so you encountered the same problem when fighting anything with material based DR such as every higher level Evil Outsider ever. The lower ones you can get with Holy or Pure Good or whatthefuckever. There were also various Monk bugs that weakened them though most seem to be fixed now.

Combine that with the fact that from what little I've seen DDO Monks are like Diablo 2 Martial Arts Assassins (lots of work, not so much pay off, very vulnerable to lag) and well, yeah.

The other handwraps seem rare too, if they're available at all. Banisher, Smiter, Vorpal... These either can't appear on handwraps, can't appear on anything Monks can use, or seem to have a really low drop rate, such that fucking specialty handwraps sell more for specialty rapiers and khopeshes.

You mostly see:

(rare) Cleric or Favored Soul with 2 levels of Monk for the AC, saves, and Evasion. Almost always a battle cleric.

Rangers with 1 level of Monk for the AC, using Icy Raiment which is a very sweet robe, and not too hard to get.

I don't think there are any others that dip Monk. Barbarians and Bards can't for obvious reasons, Fighters usually don't bother since they don't have the Wisdom to support it, Sorcerers and Wizards usually go Rogue if they want Evasion that bad since they're not getting AC that matters anyways, I think Paladins lose access to some class feature or another and Rogues, if an AC build are doing just fine with their Dex.

[ckafrica]

So I'm thinking of starting; what are the best sorts of builds?

[Judging__Eagle]

Depends what you want to do.

Cleric:
Healing is lazy, but always works. Once you're high level, you can see everything at the high end; and if you change your gear around, you can change your spell slots to damage spells.

Rogue:
Detrapper. Traps are common, and at elite, are usually deadly. So you gotta have a rogue. One with maxed spotting, searching and disable device.

Damage might suffer; b/c of no rogue attack haste, but it's not too expensive, so you will get it eventually, +35% attack speed is very noticeable with small/light weapons.

A rogue can still get decent melee damage, if they do what they can to hang back and always attack a monster that is attacking an other creature.

So, if you have a good melee dps/intimidate character; you can kill his gathered monsters easier.

This is the non-tank version of the Exploiter; where you probably get more damage; but can't be attacking something that is only attacking you.

Sorcerer 1/Cleric rest. I suggest this for the large mana pool. Also, you can cast out of wands without sweating UMD.

I'm not sure if Sorcerer/Wizard is viable.

I know that at the whole game; a sorcerer has maybe as much as double the SP of a wizard, and that items give them extra mana; and that some sorcerers sometimes don't wear +SP items. So, maybe this could build a spellcaster with an unlimited list of spells, with wider spell pool than a wizard would have (but not as much as a sorcerer could easily have).
Finally, you get unlimited learnable spells [wizard], and you can shuffle about your slots. However, you also have the much larger mana pool of a Sorcerer added on.


The Exploiter works; oh, does it ever work.

I would however not put points in hide/move silently. I did mistakenly thinking that scouting happens. Really, it doesn't. Only rogues scout, and that's it. The game's limited restrictions on how difficult a challenge is, are pretty narrow, and unless you're a mechanic rogue, you're not going to always make the checks, b/c if not, the control boxes burst, and the trap is still active. When traps = death due to massive damage, etc.; then there's no real point

Anyway, get spot and listen instead. You'll always want them high since you want to be able to detect hidden enemies. With only rogues usually being able to spot or listen with a high modifier at the end game. this can sometimes help in missions full of 'hidden' creature.

Often, I'll see the outline of a creature well before anyone else has, and once I attack and hit, or it swings at me, everyone else sees it.

Balance, Jump, UMD, are all good.

Don't sweat getting EWP: khopesh. You're a TWF melee dps build. Get the weapons with the best properties that you can get. Hold off on feats that specialize you until the very end of the game; when you can afford to get the weapons that you want.

I'm seriously thinking about getting a paralyzing club, and a thundering pick of maimimg as a dps weapon combo. A weapon to paralyze, and allow for auto-crits, and a weapon that deals lots of bonus damage when it crits. Hopefully that will result in more than an average amount of crits, and therefore damage.

[Roy]

Ok, about half of this is wrong.

Depends what you want to do.

Cleric:
Healing is lazy, but always works. Once you're high level, you can see everything at the high end; and if you change your gear around, you can change your spell slots to damage spells.

Healbots work, but you automatically get all the healing spells so you don't really have to change anything, and the best types of Clerics are the right tool for the job sorts, not healbots. In other words, if a 15 mana soundburst would save much more mana on heals, the Cleric casts offensive spells. If a 15 mana resist fire would prevent hundreds of fire damage, the Cleric casts buffs. And when actual healing is needed anyways, they do that too.

Noobs will bitch at you for not doing nothing but watching their health bars (while they run out of range and behind corners, so you can't heal them anyways) but the good players will recognize and appreciate what you're doing.

About the only time you really need to be a healbot is raids. Remember, there is nothing stopping an offensive caster from taking Life Magic 4, Wand/Scroll Mastery maxed, and a Superior Potency 6 item making their heals exactly as good as a healbot.

Rogue:
Detrapper. Traps are common, and at elite, are usually deadly. So you gotta have a rogue. One with maxed spotting, searching and disable device.

Damage might suffer; b/c of no rogue attack haste, but it's not too expensive, so you will get it eventually, +35% attack speed is very noticeable with small/light weapons.

Full stop. Being a Rogue in no way conflicts with your ability to get DPS abilities. It actually opens up other options (at least if you're a halfling, which you should be).

Max ranks, keep your items level appropriate and you should be able to handle any trap at your level, barring about five anomalies that have unusually high DCs and thus no one expects you to get anyways.

You'll even be able to get some traps a few levels higher, though you might need to buff for those (Fox's Cunning, Heroism, Bard song if available... choose one or two). This is only a problem at low and mid levels, at high levels you'll just get everything no problem, barring the aforementioned anomalies. Those are off limits unless you're a mechanic rogue or a wizard rogue.

A rogue can still get decent melee damage, if they do what they can to hang back and always attack a monster that is attacking an other creature.

So, if you have a good melee dps/intimidate character; you can kill his gathered monsters easier.

This is the non-tank version of the Exploiter; where you probably get more damage; but can't be attacking something that is only attacking you.

Assassin Rogues are the best DPS in the game. They can often pull aggro off Frenzied Berserkers, and that's with 36% threat reduction. The key is to blind enemies, something that's hard to do on your own (you need either common Everbright weapons, or Radiance 2 weapons which are more Greensteel) but easy to do in a team (Glitterdust, got them all).

Sorcerer 1/Cleric rest. I suggest this for the large mana pool. Also, you can cast out of wands without sweating UMD.

Nope. With the current cap of 20 you're likely to actually lose mana this way. While that might have been fine with a lower cap, now it's Cleric 20 for the win.

Arcane wands are not nearly as useful as divine wands. And you should have UMD anyways, if for no other reason than to get items earlier (RR items are 2 levels lower than the same item without a race restriction).

I'm not sure if Sorcerer/Wizard is viable.

I know that at the whole game; a sorcerer has maybe as much as double the SP of a wizard, and that items give them extra mana; and that some sorcerers sometimes don't wear +SP items. So, maybe this could build a spellcaster with an unlimited list of spells, with wider spell pool than a wizard would have (but not as much as a sorcerer could easily have).
Finally, you get unlimited learnable spells [wizard], and you can shuffle about your slots. However, you also have the much larger mana pool of a Sorcerer added on.

A Sorcerer or a Wizard can work. The endgame gives arcane casters the shaft. So bad in fact most groups will take a freaking BARD over either one of them. The reasoning: Bards have the same buffs and more. The non buff spells of arcanists largely get cockblocked.

Here are some examples of what I mean:

Shroud, endgame two mods ago: Trash mobs have four digit figures for HP, and sometimes high fortitude saves. Instant death works, but the trash mobs are the least significant part of it so running around spamming Wail of the Banshee is a lot less impressive. When it gets boss time he has purple name immunities and around half a million HP. All you can really do is buff, and maybe throw a Waves of Exhaustion at him.

Amrath, endgame one mod ago: The trash mobs in the normal quests have thousands of HP and either 1: Very high fortitude saves and massive boosts to Will saves vs enchantment or 2: Immunity to death and enchantment. Unless you're decked out in raid gear, good luck getting a spell to land. Hope you enjoy casting Displacement. At least everyone gets a free Greater Heroism here.

Inspired Quarter, endgame this mod: Ok, this one is easy as fuck for some reason. Both parts. I don't know why the sudden change, but characters who wouldn't make it 10 yards into Amrath can easily blast through these quests. Of course the rewards there are made of Fail for the most part, so you get what you pay for. It is a common joke in DDO that the mod that released these is known as the _________ mod, where the blank can be filled in by whichever guild is most notorious for being inept on that server. And note, this is the results people were getting when it first came out, so it wasn't like people knew the quests backwards or anything.

I would however not put points in hide/move silently. I did mistakenly thinking that scouting happens. Really, it doesn't. Only rogues scout, and that's it. The game's limited restrictions on how difficult a challenge is, are pretty narrow, and unless you're a mechanic rogue, you're not going to always make the checks, b/c if not, the control boxes burst, and the trap is still active. When traps = death due to massive damage, etc.; then there's no real point

Traps have already been addressed. As for the sneaking, that's not quite right. Rogues do not scout, no one scouts.

You know why? Because even in situations where no one knows the quest, it's better to have everyone go ahead, than to have the scout get sealed in a room with mobs that auto aggro on them and have to fight his way out alone. There are a fair number of instances of this throughout the game. That and buff timers make the game very anti scout.

Now, stealth is moderately useful for soloing, but that's about it.

Anyway, get spot and listen instead. You'll always want them high since you want to be able to detect hidden enemies. With only rogues usually being able to spot or listen with a high modifier at the end game. this can sometimes help in missions full of 'hidden' creature.

Often, I'll see the outline of a creature well before anyone else has, and once I attack and hit, or it swings at me, everyone else sees it.

Spot yes, listen no.

Spot lets you see outlines. This is quite noticible.

Listen lets you see red waves at their feet. This is not so noticible, especially in the heat of battle.

Spot gives you more clues outside of combat than Listen, and often more useful clues as well.

Max spot, ignore listen.

Balance, Jump, UMD, are all good.

Don't sweat getting EWP: khopesh. You're a TWF melee dps build. Get the weapons with the best properties that you can get. Hold off on feats that specialize you until the very end of the game; when you can afford to get the weapons that you want.

I'm seriously thinking about getting a paralyzing club, and a thundering pick of maimimg as a dps weapon combo. A weapon to paralyze, and allow for auto-crits, and a weapon that deals lots of bonus damage when it crits. Hopefully that will result in more than an average amount of crits, and therefore damage.

Nope.

1: Paralyzing weapons do not yield auto crits. To get auto crits as a melee, you can use Stunning Blow/Fist, but that's about it. Paralyzers stop enemies from attacking... usually, which is useful, but not for what you want.

2: If you are going to go the auto crit approach, try bursting weapons. They do more.

3: Because of some of the points mentioned earlier, you'll want a Weighted weapon for that. Higher stun DC + small chance of a free stun on every hit.

[Judging__Eagle]

Ah, so ... what's the point of a khopesh? Just that 1d8/19-20/x3

And what are other ways that you can get crits easier? I didn't realize that paralyzing didn't make things helpless. :/

On clerics, yeah, a good one will simply prevent having to heal, by casting buffs.... a bad one, will be told to cast ER [element] on the group.

I'm mostly referring to how playing a support role Cleric is more profitable and effective in the long run than a battle cleric ever will, and more so than many other character builds.

Bards being useful at end-game over wizards is .... well, I'm not super surprised.

[Roy]

Ah, so ... what's the point of a khopesh? Just that 1d8/19-20/x3

And what are other ways that you can get crits easier? I didn't realize that paralyzing didn't make things helpless. :/

It might have at one point, but it doesn't anymore. The point is more DPS vs anything not completely immune to crits (for undead you will want bludgeoning, for elementals you will want Bane weapons, for oozes you will want Muckbane/Muckdoom/Everbright bludgeoning weapons, plants are not in game, and I forget the fifth type that's always immune).

If you want crits easier:

Stunning Blow/Fist the mobs. You will need a Weighted weapon to make this land later.

Hold spells from a caster.

Flesh to Stone from a caster.

Reduce any of their stats to 0, even Con. Note this is a nerf to Con damage as that normally just kills outright. Dex is the easiest to 0 out, but it also comes on bludgeoning weapons which are the worst to use for this. Str damage also reduces their damage and accuracy, and Con damage takes off some of their HP.

On clerics, yeah, a good one will simply prevent having to heal, by casting buffs.... a bad one, will be told to cast ER [element] on the group.

I'm mostly referring to how playing a support role Cleric is more profitable and effective in the long run than a battle cleric ever will, and more so than many other character builds.

Bards being useful at end-game over wizards is .... well, I'm not super surprised.

Well yeah, melee Clerics are not that good. Even the ones who constantly advocate them in spite of the evidence to the contrary* admit it is not a newbie friendly build as you need incredibly good gear just to function... which is a sign of gimpitude. Offensive spells are another matter. Another reason arcanes fail - Devils are immune to fire. They are not immune to force (Blade Barrier). So while the arcane is stuck trying to kill the high save high HP immunity ridden mobs with Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, or multiple Energy Drains + Finger of Death the divine is playing Benny Hill with the mobs and killing all of them. A well played divine can solo endgame quests better than some parties and is capable of soloing certain raids with extreme difficulty and practice.

* - Namely that the dedicated melee classes are actually worth a shit, and many of the things that make CoDzilla good are not in game... though Clerics did > melee at melee back in the first 2 mods or so.

[hogarth]

So I'm thinking of starting; what are the best sorts of builds?

One note -- Roy may have good advice, but it mainly pertains to the higher level parts of the game, and that might take hundreds of hours of playing to reach. Gaining levels slows down dramatically at around level 7-8. So if you're thinking of just being a casual player, not all of his comments may apply to your situation.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The human Rogue 1/Ranger is a solid build. You can afford to do traps and locks without much investment in intelligence, you get some very nice buffs (rams' might, resist energy, protection from energy, barkskin); two weapon fighting. Use magic device is a bit of a problem, because without a good charisma it will never be high enough to use equipment of your level (and there are no real UMD boosters). However, it does allow you to use wands of invisibility and whatnot. You do need to drop a few points into Dexterity to qualify as a tempest.

I've also been wondering how viable a rogue 1/cleric would be as a healer/trap disabler (using detect traps). You'd have to put too many points in intelligence, but clerics don't need jump and balance like melee characters do.

[ubernoob]

I've also been wondering how viable a rogue 1/cleric would be as a healer/trap disabler (using detect traps). You'd have to put too many points in intelligence, but clerics don't need jump and balance like melee characters do.

From what I've seen (I haven't actually played one) the rogue 1/ Cleric X combination can work fine for traps as long as they are keeping their ranks up and using detect traps. A human with 12-14ish int starting could get away with it pretty easily (especially since find traps doesn't scale up in cost but does scale up in benefit).

You are of course tanking a level of cleric, but as a trap springer you are pretty much golden.

[Roy]

So I'm thinking of starting; what are the best sorts of builds?

One note -- Roy may have good advice, but it mainly pertains to the higher level parts of the game, and that might take hundreds of hours of playing to reach. Gaining levels slows down dramatically at around level 7-8. So if you're thinking of just being a casual player, not all of his comments may apply to your situation.

At the lower levels, it makes fuck all difference what you do.

As long as you're fighting kobolds, all that is required is that you not be completely brain dead, and you can deal with em in any manner you see fit.

Once you get to harder enemies it gets a little tougher, but up to about level 10 or so any class can be a viable tank with the right equipment since all you need is an AC of 30 or better, easy with level appropriate armor, shield (clickie or wand or actual shield), barkskin (potion or ranger), and shield of faith (cleric, favored soul, or potion).

It is only after those first few levels it starts being about you and not what you wear. So it's only after those first few levels we can meaningfully discuss strategy. And besides, this is the Den. I would be highly disappointed if you were not setting out to powergame the fuck out of it.

As for Catharz... not quite.

Taking one level of Rogue immediately gives you access to max ranks, aka 23 instead of 11. Even if your Charisma is 8 that still gives you a decent UMD score, like so:

23 ranks.
+2 cha mod with a +6 item, easy to get.
+4 morale from Greater Heroism, easy to get.
+1 luck from voice of the master, easy to get.
+3 competence from Golden Cartouche, easy to get.
+3 unnamed from Tier 2 Shroud Item, easy to get*.

= +36. Good enough to Raise Dead without fail and Heal 85% of the time, as well as automatically succeed on any wand or scroll with a CL of 8th or lower. You have a 95% success rate on CL 10 stuff, such as 10th level wands of Shield. This is all without popping a skill boost.

If you add items that are remotely difficult to obtain...

+1 cha from +2 tome.
+1 additional luck bonus, Head of Good Fortune.
+2 additional competence from Seven Fingered Gloves.
+3 additional unnamed from Tier 3 Shroud item.

= 43, good enough to cast Resurrection without fail, without popping a boost.

* - It's Tier 3 that's hard.

As you can see, you will have little trouble hitting endgame breakpoints, even before hitting the level cap and before that you still have a useful UMD score.

Also, Clerics do need Balance and Jump. Balance helps against getting tripped which their armor hinders, and Jump needs to be at least +10 so a Jump spell maxes it out. Can't heal if you're on your back.

[ckafrica]

Any particular traps to avoid?

Also is there anywhere where you can look at the enchantments and spells on a quick reference list to compare? I hate having to look at one entry at a time.

[CatharzGodfoot]

As for Catharz... not quite.

Taking one level of Rogue immediately gives you access to max ranks, aka 23 instead of 11. Even if your Charisma is 8 that still gives you a decent UMD score, like so:

23 ranks.
+2 cha mod with a +6 item, easy to get.
+4 morale from Greater Heroism, easy to get.
+1 luck from voice of the master, easy to get.
+3 competence from Golden Cartouche, easy to get.
+3 unnamed from Tier 2 Shroud Item, easy to get*.

= +36. Good enough to Raise Dead without fail and Heal 85% of the time, as well as automatically succeed on any wand or scroll with a CL of 8th or lower. You have a 95% success rate on CL 10 stuff, such as 10th level wands of Shield. This is all without popping a skill boost.

If you add items that are remotely difficult to obtain...

+1 cha from +2 tome.
+1 additional luck bonus, Head of Good Fortune.
+2 additional competence from Seven Fingered Gloves.
+3 additional unnamed from Tier 3 Shroud item.

= 43, good enough to cast Resurrection without fail, without popping a boost.

* - It's Tier 3 that's hard.

As you can see, you will have little trouble hitting endgame breakpoints, even before hitting the level cap and before that you still have a useful UMD score.

At 20th level, maybe, but for the majority of the game you'll be behind the curve, especially if you don't have the resources to devote 4 item slots and the majority of your good gear to UMD.