Shau's ridiculously long Divine Power Review

[Lago PARANOIA]

One of the build ideas that I have been kicking around is a strict backup healer cleric; they supplement the primary healer with surgeless healing but spend most of their time fulfilling the needs of another role (a.k.a. Striker). So a STR/WIS/CON Ranger|Cleric

Several effects come into play for this. The first is spamming Weapon of Astral Flame, which gives a ridiculous amount of battle mojo when combined with Salves of Power. The second is healing supplemental items.

N: New holy symbol for Healer's Implement
N+1: 'Free' slot; use it to accumulate missed shit without disrupting your magical item gain.
N+2: Frost Weapon
N+3: Healer's Cloak
N+4: Healer's Armor

Even so, this is obviously going to be an expensive build. I don't really think that my standard treasure accumulation scheme is going to be able to keep up--you're either going to sacrifice damage or supplemental healing ability. This is really more of a Sorta-Big Spender build.

The other thing I was thinking of doing is instead of just switching between Recovery Strike and Twin Strike and balancing healing items the character grabs powers that heals party members up to full outside of battle. For example, at 17th level the character would look like:

Warforged Ranger|Cleric/Fighter/Pit-Fighter

At-Wills: Twin Strike, Recovery Strike
Encounters: Armor Splinter, Disruptive Strike, Mantle of Glory
Dailies: Blade Cascade, Divine Power (to heal yourself to full), Weapon of Astral Flame
Utilities: Fox Shift (mandatory, good utility at any rate), Stream of Healing (to heal entire party to full out of battle), Sacred Beneficence, Cloak of Courage

Equipment: +3 Frost Double-Axe, +3 Healer's Masterwork Bullshit Chainmail, +3 Cloak of the Healer, Iron Armbands of Power, Siberys Shard of Lasting Cold, Gloves of Ice, Boots of Eagerness, 4x Salve of Power, +4 vanilla holy symbol.

[Josh_Kablack]

Edit to reply to Lago's edit.

You don't even strictly need the ranger hybrid class.

Working inside a fairly limited ruleset and on low equipment but as the third healer in a large party, I've been getting very good mileage on the +2/+2 from divine power stacking with the +1d6 damage from Weapon of the Gods and them both also applying to the minor action attack from Weapon of Astral Flame.

With just the first paragon level of Pit Fighter and a little help from group buffs, I managed to dish out over 100 points of damage inside a round in last night's game.

Level 11 gives the pit fighter's Extra Damage Action, but the reason you take this over War Priest is that All Bets are Off is a multi-hit power
Level 12 gives Deadly Payback, which is another +2/+2 stackable
Level 13 gives another multi-hit power with Arc of the Righteous already on the Cleric List. You now have two, and both have the Weapon and Standard action tags - so you can get all your weapon stuffs and Extra Damage Action on each of them.
Level 14 doesn't really do much, but the feat likely adds something, since you need the Fighter multiclass to get into Pit Fighter, then you sink 3 into Fullblade and then you likely want to stack Action Surge and possibly Power Attack and/or Back to the Wall onto your nova.
Level 15 gives you another +1 to hit due to Weapon Expertise and probably another 9th level daily although in theory Penance of Blood could add to your nova damage. Remember, that if you are going for vulnerable: all effects you want Pervasive Light, which means ditching Weapon of the Gods or using an elemental weapon.
and Level 16 gives that sweet, sweet Pit Fighter WIS bonus to damage.
Level 17 gives you Sever the Source, which takes a standard action to turn on- which sadly means your combo is now bigger than you will likely have time to turn all the buffs on for. But as even under latest errata this just works, no attack needed, target gains vulnerable all: ~14 and cannot heal nor regen this turn - it's the only power any cleric takes at L17. Under optimum circumstances, you can take advantage of this vulnerability 6 times yourself when you nova (and that's not counting AOs or your warlord teammate)

So in theory at say L18, the optimum combo looks like this:

You have str 25, Wis 19, You have a fullblade dealing something like 1d12 + 19 (+ 7 Str +4 wis + 4 enhance +4 item).

Round 1: you activate Weapon of the Gods and Divine Power. You now attack at +2/+1d6+2 and any hit reduces the target's AC by 2. You activate the at-will on your Frost (or other non-radiant typed) Fullblade
Round 2: You throw Penance of Blood and don't care if it hits
Round 3: You turn on Weapon of Astral Flame
Round 4: You hit the Solo with Sever the Source, giving it vulnerable: all 18 (10 + Twice Wis Mod). Then you get the Weapon of Astral Flame Attack at +2/ +1d6+2 plus 36 from doubled vulnerability, and if this hits the AC drops
Round 4.5 the poor fool of Solo hits you, you trigger deadly payback for another +2/+2
Round 5: Party time. Action Point to use All Bets are off. Each attack is at normal mods +4 / +1d6+13 plus 36. If they both hit, the target is dazed and grants combat advantage to your regular standard action which is Arc of the Righteous for another pair of attacks at +4 / +1d6+13 plus 36. Minor action to sustain Weapon of Astral Flame for another attack at +4 / +1d6+4 plus 36.


If somehow you pull this off and everything hits, you've done a whopping 7d12+7d6+388 damage to the target in just the minor+full round where you shut off its ability to heal.


Oh and if you were Human, Action Surge gave you +3 to hit on your first pair of nova attacks, and if you were Longtooth Shifter you can add 7 more damage to each nova round attack (+1 pit fighter damage from wisdom increase, 4x (+1 to vulnerabilities from wisdom increase) +2 longtooth shifting)

[Lago PARANOIA]

I usually build my characters on the assumption of a five-encounter workday, which is why I've been favoring constitution as a tertiary stat over dexterity lately. Weapon of the Gods is a very good daily if you're on a one-encounter workday, but it sucks if you're doing more than three.

But anyway, why did I opt for the Ranger hybrid? A few reasons.

Twin Strike, Twin Strike, Twin Strike.
Feat chain of Hybrid Talent: Prime Shot, Prime Punisher, Prime Quarry, and Called Shot. If you're attacking an enemy that isn't adjacent to any allies (so that means that they should get their asses some reach weapons too--fortunately the Greatspear, the Spiked Chain, and the Glaive are awesome) you get a +2 bonus to attacks and a +5 bonus to damage.
Off-Action Encounter Attack powers. Screw Arc of the Righteous (though you probably want that anyway since you HAVE to pick a cleric power), how about some damn Twin Strike + Ruffling Sting?
Rangers, especially rangers with WIS secondary, hand out the best skills. The Perception and Insight combo are godly if you go by the published skill challenges.
Ranger utility powers stink, but they have one excellent utility power: Fox Shift at level 2. The usefulness of this cannot be overstated.

All that said, I would build a character that's angling for epic like this:

Warforged/Orc/Goliath/Minotaur/Longtooth Shifter Cleric|Ranger
18 STR, 16 WIS, 15 CON, 11 DEX, 10 CHA, 8 INT

Feats:
1: Armor Proficiency: Chainmail
2: Weapon Proficiency: Double-Axe
4: Weapon Focus: Axe
6: Weapon Expertise: Axe
8: Battle Awareness
10: Toughness (Retrained to Wintertouched at level 11)
-- Pit Fighter Here--
11: Lasting Frost
12: Toughness (Retrained to Prime Punisher at level 14)
14: Hybrid Talent: Prime Shot
16: Called Shot
18: Prime Punisher
20: Armor Proficiency: Scalemail
-- Pick Eternal Defender if you expect the game to go past level 24 but end before level 30, Demigod otherwise.
21: Axe Mastery
22: Two-Weapon Fighting
24: Two-Weapon Opening
26: Prime Hunter
28: Armor Proficiency: Platemail
30: Novice Power: Trip-Up (For Divine Recovery + Follow-Up Blow cheese)

Powers:
At-Will: Twin Strike, Righteous Brand
Encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Daily 1: Moment of Glory (makes you invincible at low levels; could've gone with Consecrated Ground instead but I feel that that power is even cheesier than this; if you do want to go CG then pick Jaws of the Wolf instead -- Retrain this to Weapon of Astral Flame as soon as you get any Salves of Power)
Utility 2: Fox Shift
Encounter 3: Disruptive Strike, retrain Off-Hand Strike to Healing Strike
Daily 5: Frenzied Skirmish
Utility 6: Stream of Healing
Encounter 7: Ruffling Sting
Daily 9: Divine Power
Utility 10: Spirit of Healing or Sacred Beneficience, depending on your workday
Encounter 13: Armor Splinter (replace Ruffling Sting) or Arc of the Righteous (replace healing strike)
Daily 15: Blade Cascade (replaces Frenzied Skirmish)
Encounter 16: Astral Shield or Cloak of Courage, your call.
Encounter 17: Whatever you didn't get for level 13, get that. Alternatively, you can pick up Divine Phalanx (which has a great effect) instead of Arc of the Righteous.
Daily 19: If you have a melee-heavy party, have Beacon of Doom or Realm of Battle replace Divine Power. Otherwise don't.
Encounter 23: Cloak of Thorns replacing Armor Splinter if you want a ranger power. Mortal Terror replaces Arc of the Righteous if you have a melee heavy party (the extra attacks counterbalances the loss of your Prime Shot spoon)
Daily 25: Tiger's Reflex replaces your level 19 power.
Encounter 27: Sunburst if your DM agrees with Sunburst cheese. Otherwise, don't get anything. You gotta love 4E powers.
Daily 29: Follow-Up Blow replaces Tiger's Reflex. Enjoy your six attacks per round, you cheesy bastard.

[shau]

If I were going with Cleric/Ranger, I would rather go the archer way. At first level you look like this.

4e Cleric Archer
Race: elf of course
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 10.

At will: Twin Strike, Cleric something. How about Sacred Flame?
Daily: Moment of Glory (retrained at to Ranger something at level 5, back at level 9)
Encounter: two fanged strike

Feat: weapon focus: bow (retrain to speed loading at level 2)

First level you look exactly the same as every other ranger archer, except you have a healing word and you trade Hunter's Bear Trap for Moment of Glory, which is like the best trade ever. Then you expand out like this.

Feats
lvl 2 Proficiency superior crossbow
lvl 4 Weapon focus crossbow
lvl 6 fighter MC
lvl 8 Acolyte Power
lvl 10 distant advantage or mounted combat with a dire wolf (maybe retrain to winter frost when you get lasting frost)

lvl 2 utility Ranger power I don't care about (becomes the new fighter stance at level 8)
lvl 3 enc Hymn of resurgence
lvl 5 daily Consecrated Ground
lvl 6 utility Spirit of Healing
lvl 7 enc Disruptive Strike (keep this forever, its like an immediate interrupt attack and a stun).
lvl 9 Attacks on the Run
lvl 10 Stream of Healing if that is allowed. Blood of the fallen if not.

lvl11 pitfighter, just do whatever from here. You pretty much have everything you need now

At the end of heroic you want to have a couple Salves of Power on hand in addition to decent frost crossbow and some healer gear. Your tactics are to drop one of your broken dailies that supercharge your party on your first turn, activate your fighter stance, and then run and hide in the back and pretend you are a striker the rest of the encounter. So you drop Moment of Glory for super DR and be a striker. Or you drop Consecrated Ground and hide in the back and enjoy the fact that you can shoot and heal from 20 squares back. Or you use Spirit of Healing which is like the equivalent of casting 3 Astral Signs a turn and hide in the back and shoot from 20 squares back. Or you just pump out like 30 hp and a twin strike each turn with Stream of Healing, which does not seem like something you should be able to take but my Char builder says its fine. I said to get Salves of Power, but they are really just gravy. By level 10 you have four healing effects (or massive Dr effects) that will last the whole encounter.

The Cleric shit is unbalancing enough that you could seriously just diddle yourself after firing off one of those effects and still be MVP. Being a decent striker on top of it is just gravy. And the most obvious counter to all of these tactics, stun or kill the cleric, does not work because you are way back in pretty much a different zip code.


Other thoughts:
Is Healer's Cloak a new item like Healer's armor? Because that would be sweet.

Why is Weapon of the Gods only good for short workdays?

The FAQ says that you do not get healer's lore and shit on regeneration. That sort of makes stuff like Divine Power Sacred Beneficence the suck. Well not suck, but I am significantly less enthusiastic about taking them.

What is Sunburst cheese? It's totally awesome and like the only way to heal hp without using a surge or daily as a wisdom cleric in core but is there anything else there?

[Josh_Kablack]

The FAQ says that you do not get healer's lore and shit on regeneration.

Wait, there's a FAQ?

5 minutes of googling later, found it:



Wow, they hid it pretty good - doesn't that defeat the purpose of a FAQ?

22. If I use a prayer that gives regeneration such as Divine Power, do I add my bonus from Healer’s Lore to the power?

No. The Healer’s Lore feature does not apply to regeneration effects, even if those powers have the Healing keyword.

First: shouldn't you have mentioned that in one of the Errata updates since the FAQ then? You know like "Errata to PHB page 61: Healer's Lore only does not apply to effects that grant regeneration; modify the text to read "When you grant healing with one of your clerical powers that has the healing keyword, but does not grant regeneration, then add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points the recipient regains. " The fact that you haven't leads me to want to characterize that as the Sage hittin' the pipeweed again and not an actual rules change.

Second: Oh noes! I don't get my wisdom to regen. Now I only get to add Healer's Implement, Beatific Healer, Healer's Brooch, Gloves of the Healer and Healer's Armor. How will I ever survive if my regen only gets a bonus of my Cha + 3x my Enhancement bonus +2d6 +5 from Beacon of Hope?

[Lago PARANOIA]

If I were going with Cleric/Ranger, I would rather go the archer way.

I wouldn't. It's difficult enough as it is to afford the swag needed become a Healbot cleric when you only have an implement/Crusader's weapon to worry about, but trying to keep up the weapon damage, too?

I would rather just go Morninglord, personally, if you want a healbot that does large amounts of unnecessary damage. If you insist on getting multiattacks and don't mind losing the extra healing word(s)/healer's mercy you could just hybrid Druid, plop down a 13 in STR and CON for chainmail or a hybrid talent for the +WIS feature, and dual-wield a staff of ruin and a frost staff/crusader's mace.

... however, that said, cleric/ranger is a straight power-up over regular archer ranger, even if you want to take those dumbass PHB PPs. The only real disadvantage that the class gets is that one of the encounter attack slots will be unusuable (which can be gotten around with Reserve Maneuver). Then again, pretty much Ranger/anything is a power-up over the regular archer ranger, since the dailies with three-to-four exceptions suck snail bait and damage-focused rangers have the worst utility powers in the game. Hell, Archer Ranger/Warden is just as good of a hybrid class even if you don't use ANY Warden primary stats.

Have I mentioned yet that Hybrid Classing will be 4E's biggest failure? No? Good. I think they have one final chance to get something that won't be a pile of donkey dicks when they release the final version on January 17, but only if they release a .pdf that goes 'Hybrid Classing will not be supported. Go away.'

Second: Oh noes! I don't get my wisdom to regen. Now I only get to add Healer's Implement, Beatific Healer, Healer's Brooch, Gloves of the Healer and Healer's Armor. How will I ever survive if my regen only gets a bonus of my Cha + 3x my Enhancement bonus +2d6 +5 from Beacon of Hope?

I dunno. You probably won't be allowed to do that in a future update as soon as Mike Mearls becomes aware of that.

[Josh_Kablack]

If I cared what Mike Mearls thought, I would be locked in the looney bin.

But potential stackable healing balance aside, the healing items seriously need errata for CLARITY and ease of use.

Here are the three biggies from the first Ad Vault (so all of these wordings were published at the same time, no editorial changes or errata between them)

Property: When you use a power that has the healing keyword, one target regains an extra 1d6 hit points.

So with these equipped, when I use Healing Strike with Target: Stormtrooper #7 and designated ally: Beau the Halfling.
Then Stormtrooper#7 takes 2W+bonuses damage, Beau can spend a healing surge (adding applicable bonuses from other sources) and Stormtrooper #7 heals 1d6.

Somehow I doubt that's the design intent, but it's not like powers that damage the Target and heal a friendly are anything like rare on the cleric (or other leader) power lists, so it's hard to believe even the current crop of underpaid hacks on unrealistic deadlines missed that.

Property: When you use a power that restores hit points to an ally, add an item bonus equal to this weapon’s enhancement bonus to the amount restored.

So with a +N one of these these equipped, when I use Healing Strike with Target: Stormtrooper #7 and designated ally: Beau the Halfling.
Then Stormtrooper#7 takes 2W+bonuses damage, Beau can spend a healing surge and get heal an additional +N hit points (adding any additional applicable bonuses from other sources).
Notably, were I to designate myself as the character who gets to spend the surge, then the bonus from the item does not apply.

Property: When you use a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points, add the brooch’s enhancement bonus to the hit points gained.

So with a +X one of these these equipped, when I use Healing Strike with Target: Stormtrooper #7 and designated ally: Beau the Halfling.
Then Stormtrooper#7 takes 2W+bonuses damage, Beau can spend a healing surge and get heal an additional +X hit points (adding any additional applicable bonuses from other sources).
And here, when I to designate myself as the character who gets to spend the surge, then the bonus from the item does apply.

So when I try to min-max healing and grab all three of these items and use them with Healing Strike, then Stormtrooper#7 takes the damage, but gains +1d6 HP, Beau can spend his surge for Surge Value+N+X healing, OR I can spend a surge for Surge+X Value.

And that is exception-based design in action.

I can't see how on earth that is anything but confusing the the game. Really, they should all use the following wordings:

Property: When you use a power that enables you or an ally to heal, you gain the item's enhancement bonus to the hit points healed.

Property: When you use a power that enables you or an ally to heal, you gain a Nd6 Item bonus to the hit points healed.

and suddenly everything works all the time, except where the existing bonus stacking rules prevent it from doing so. You'd get a system that was more intuitive, less confusing and so long as you enforced that all new healing bonus items were enhancement or item, it would also be less potentially abusive than the current one.

And if you don't like healing bonuses stacking with regen, append this baby to the end of those and Healer's Lore:

You only gain this bonus once per each use of a power. For powers which last multiple rounds, only apply that bonus to the healing granted in the first round.

And presto, now I'm no longer wondering why adding Healer's Lore to regeneration each round is too powerful, banned from use, but adding Healer's Lore to Consecrate Ground and Stream of Life each and every round is just fine, even when both of those can be active at the same time.

[shau]

I wouldn't. It's difficult enough as it is to afford the swag needed become a Healbot cleric when you only have an implement/Crusader's weapon to worry about, but trying to keep up the weapon damage, too?

I don't know if it will be that bad. Let's see, to stay relevant a melee ranger pretty much needs this equipment to be level appropriate.

2 frost weapons
2 dragon shards of cold
Gauntlets of Cold
Armbands of power
Level appropriate armor(and it better be masterwork or you're screwed)
A level appropriate neck slot.

And you probably want other stuff for your other slots as well. By contrast the Cleric Archer needs

A frost bow
A dragon shard of cold
Gauntlets of Cold
Bracers of archery
Healer's armor
Healer's Brooch
An implement (just for Healer's Implement, you don't really use Cleric attacks)

That's pretty comparable. The Cleric Archer loses money on making his armor and brooch healer specific and the ranger can skate by with just magic items in those slots (though I have never seen anyone actually do this.) The ranger also does not need a holy symbol. The Cleric Archer, however, only needs one weapon and shard. In tight situations they can also afford to ignore upgrading their symbol or even their armor and brooch, though that brings their healing back. You might want gloves of the healer instead of Ice gauntlets, bet as Josh points out its unclear if those gloves do anything for any of your powers besides your one healing word. The Cleric Archer also really wants Salve of Power (like almost everybody), but if you can hold off till mid paragon tier you can really easily afford them.

It would be interesting to see who comes out on top damage wise between a Morninglord or Druid/cleric, though my bet would still be on the Archer. Even if it is lower a lot of the appeal of Cleric Archer is his ability to heal people form a massive distance away. Too far away to be attacked directly or stuck in an aura or to get by area attacks. That means your team has a real chance to survive against shit like a lamia that is getting lucky rolls.

Speaking of long ranged healing, that was supposed to be the Shaman's trick. Looking through my char builder (still not updating for Primal Power) and comparing them to the cleric makes me want to cry, but if they ever get crazy powers like Astral Sign and the ability to use them from 20 squares away like their other powers they are going to be badasses. They already got a new overpowered level 2 utility which gives every DR equal to their con for the whole encounter. Assuming Slaves of Power work on daily utility powers, you can have a viable build by just using that every battle.

[shau]

edit: Bad internet connection + not paying attention = double post.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't know if it will be that bad. Let's see, to stay relevant a melee ranger pretty much needs this equipment to be level appropriate.

But see... a melee ranger CAN'T afford that swag. If you look at lordduskblades' build then you can see that he was frequently behind on equipment upgrades to boost his offense. And he had a VERY generous equipment payout, more than what my own system recommended--mine stays pretty close to the wealth you'd get for a pre-generated character. People ooh and ahh over the kind of pain a melee ranger can bring but that kind of whupass tends to move into the theoretical, because it assumes way too much swag.

But anyway, this is why I always have for my builds melee rangers humping the leg of vanilla neck and armor slot items and give pre-created rangers double weapons, even though their class feature is pretty . If you're on a more generous wealth scheme than that then a cleric archer can work.

But I really don't see why you'd bother. The selling point of the ranger and the cleric are their At-Wills. You can't use both at once and Astral Seal only really works if you're using it or something equivalent to it every round. If you just want to plunder cleric utilities that's fine, but even recommended (though a lot of classes give ridiculous hybrid-class utilities, even the swordmage and rogue, because ranger utility powers suck), but I wouldn't really split your schtick. Personally, I'd just grab the Mark of Warding feat and stick to effects that boost AC. Giving a +6 to AC with that feat and APing a Divine Power + Guardian's Shield is like hitting the I Win button for an encounter.

They already got a new overpowered level 2 utility which gives every DR equal to their con for the whole encounter. Assuming Slaves of Power work on daily utility powers, you can have a viable build by just using that every battle.

Why wouldn't you just spam Moment of Glory, which gives resist 5 to the entire party? That utility would only work on yourself and would max out at 8-9 resistance anyway in epic.

[shau]

I really have no idea at all what sort of shit you are supposed to have in 4e. Game design goals were to not have any empty or low level slots but honestly filling up half of them seems unrealistic. If you can wait for a while or start late you can just run one level behind with that stuff. The difference between having all the cleric gear and being one plus behind with everything is like 3 hp a heal. That's kinda a lot, but not really undoable. Hell, even with no healing shit at all you are still looking pretty good. Stream of healing is 12 hp per hit when you get it and 15 hp per hit at level 8 and only goes up from there. Stream of life is an even 20 hp a level. And Consecrated ground works on a just enough to constantly bring you back from the dead basis, so it really does not matter wether way. Still, it starts out like giving Regen 5 to the party and just grows, so not entirely bad off.

Why wouldn't you just spam Moment of Glory, which gives resist 5 to the entire party? That utility would only work on yourself and would max out at 8-9 resistance anyway in epic.

My bad, the utility effects a close burst 1 around your spirit, so yeah it hits the whole party. And it does not have to be sustained. Its seriously just straight up power up over Moment of Glory. The only reason I would not poach it with a cleric is that it is Con based and unicorn's touch exists.

Honestly, you are still going to spam Moment of Glory simply because clerics still have way more crazy shit, but if I had to play a shaman I think I could be happy like that.

[Username17]

I really have no idea at all what sort of shit you are supposed to have in 4e. Game design goals were to not have any empty or low level slots but honestly filling up half of them seems unrealistic.

This.

Even a cursory examination of the treasure parcel system shows that it doesn't meet any of the projected claims for what it was supposed to do. However, unlike the similarly disastrous Skill Challenge fiasco, they never even included a hopeful description of what the fuck was supposed to happen. So you can't even do their work for them in redesigning the system, because you can't tell by reading their shit how it was supposed to work.

But it's pretty clear that it's not supposed to work how it says it works.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50 ... sc&start=0

shau, I've been banging my head up against the wall for months trying to figure out how much treasure people should be getting--as shown in that thread.

While for character build purposes I use the system advertised in that thread (you get gold pieces equal to a magic item of your level every level and you get fully reimbursed for magical items you sell) in actual play I've tended to get and give much more swag.

For example, in the tabletop game I run on a MU* (and in real life before I moved) I concurrently did a system of 'select the magical item you want or get gold pieces equal to that amount' and 'roll for a random magical item in the category you choose'.

Since magical items, especially at low level, suck monkey fuck this isn't really unbalancing and players also like playing the lottery without worrying about not getting the item they want. They're not huge min-maxxers so they're pretty much okay with anything.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Reading this thread again both amuses and enrages me. Warlords have gotten so much more powerful since this thread was written and clerics have become the... well, I hesitate to say 'weak sister' of the leaders, but only because the competition is so lame and unimpressive. They're in second place for 'best leader' still but it's a distant second -- not a competitive second like warlocks or rogues versus rangers.

That said if you're using all of the official WotC-approved material for cleric (meaning that you're using the PHB Warpriest PP, one of the few times in which errata increased a character's power and especially Dragon #404), the STR-cleric is actually pretty damn good. It's no Warlord, but no one is. You're a goddamn tank and you now have a Channel Divinity power that challenges Healer's Mercy for MVP.

And even though Righteous Brand got nerfed (it's capped at a +3 to hit), it's not all bad. You can take the Power of Moon feat and get almost all of the old functionality back because Power of Moon gives the struck target a -2 penalty to defenses, too. Which while not quite as good as the +8 to attack you'd be giving out at higher levels, is enough so that it'll cause your tears to dry up.

[Mask_De_H]

How the hell did warlocks become a competitive second to rangers? Doesn't Hellish Rebuke cheese only really work at Heroic? Is it 420 charge errday with Eldritch Strike, MC Assassin/Blackguard and the charge package? Why are all of the other non-Ranger striker builds small variations on the same goddamn thing?

[Lago PARANOIA]

How the hell did warlocks become a competitive second to rangers? Doesn't Hellish Rebuke cheese only really work at Heroic? Is it 420 charge errday with Eldritch Strike, MC Assassin/Blackguard and the charge package? Why are all of the other non-Ranger striker builds small variations on the same goddamn thing?

No, actually. Warlock DPS cheese actually looks really different from what you'd think it'd be.

You're right about Hellish Rebuke cheese, though. That's the 'base' moneymaker power of the build, like Twin Strike for Rangers. However, they also printed a dagger (Shadowrift I think) for the game that allows you to Teleport if you take 5 damage. The savvy reader will note that not only does this make Hellish Rebuke super-reliable but will also trigger Shadow Walk.

With this base established, Warlocks can ladle on some other things to make them steadily more powerful:

1.) At level 11, you take the Student of Caiphon PP. The cool thing about this PP is that it's a solid PP on its own. The awesome thing about the PP is the new pact boon. Since there are also feats in the game that will make your pact trigger on an enemy being bloodied, your party (or you, if you're selfish and take the otherwise useless Shared Pact feat) flips out like ninja and provide almost as many extra attacks as a warlord.

2.) Warlocks actually have a fair selection of off-action powers. You need to be CHA/CON for them, however, but you're not going to be picking powers or features that reply on your intelligence stat.

3.) Several features and expansion options have conspired in this game to give implements almost as large of a damage bonus as weapons. Being an implement user no longer cripples their damage.

4.) Warlocks actually have pretty damn good Dailies. Curse of the Bloody Fangs and Crown of Madness are outright beastly and due to hilarious editing last until you stop sustaining it. Their utility powers are good, too. Their only real weakness are their encounter attack powers. They mostly suck, but if you're going DPS (and why not?) you hardly care.

5.) The Warlock's Curse got buffed in a huge and powerful way. With a single Warlock's Curse, you can simultaneously teleport, blind, and daze an enemy. So the fact that you're doing modestly less damage than a ranged ranger gets made up for with the devastating status effects you get to lay down.

6.) Warlocks have access to the Prime Shot line of feats. Which boosts damage and attack quite a bit.

Rangers all told are still at the top of the food chain for personal DPS, but Warlocks nowadays are extremely competitive for 1st place and if 4E D&D wasn't collapsing I wouldn't be surprised if they outright became first place. But I guess we'll never know, eh?

[Mask_De_H]

Huh. I knew about 1, 3 and 6 but how did the other three happen? Would you mind hashing out a proof of concept/directing me to something that makes the pieces fit?