Level Appropriate

[Orion]

Roy,

you might have a point if "useless after level 5" was the claim you made, but you didn't make that claim anywhere. You said that level-appropriate ACs do not exist, because monsters hit you on 2s. You later alluded to the idea that this is true only at high levels by explaining by means of monster attack scaling (which looks more like +2 per level to me for giants and elementals) but didn't say at what level it became irrelevant.

Also the claim you're now pretending to have made is still wrong.

A Fire Giant is a CR 10 brute. It attacks as +2.

Let's make a cleric.

10 (base)
+10 (+2 Mithril Full Plate, or Magic Vestment)
+2 (dex--start with 10 and get a dex item, a cat's grace, or wish bonuses)
+2 (amulet of Natural Armor)
+4 (shield of faith--either persist this, cast immediately before entering the dungeon, or buy a +2 ring of prot and live with lower numbers)

Total: 28. Fire Giant hits you on 8s, EXACTLY LIKE the elemental brute from level 5. Now, I did assume a couple of first-level buff spells, but even without you're not being hit on 2s.

I'll admit that being hit on, say, 6's is not substantially better than being hit on 2's, HOWEVER -- it does mean that collecting AC bonuses is actually capable of being relevant. Adding a Magic Vestmented Heavy Shield to the above build bumps ace up to 32, meaning you now get hit on 12+.

That's not a good idea if you're attacking with weapons because you need two-handed damage, your shield doesn't protect your group, and it's hard to squeeze out enough bonuses to actually be SAFE. But The claim wasn't that AC focused builds are currently good.

The point is, level-appropriate brute monsters can and do miss even at level 10, and if you assume that Team monster hits on 2s, you will get totally fucked damage numbers, because AC really can mitigate up to 50% of incoming melee damage without much fuss.

[Username17]

Ok, that explains Prayer. But Recitation? Isn't that allies only?

(not to mention the action cost to use in combat).

The spell affects all allies and foes within the spell's area at the moment you cast it. Your allies gain a +2 luck bonus on attack rolls and saving throws, or a +3 luck bonus if hey worship the same patron deity as you. Enemies suffer a -2 luck penalty on attack rolls and saving throws.

It requires casting in combat, because enemies aren't in the area when cast otherwise. But it's subject to DMM:Quicken or Quicken Rods if you swing that way. A Caster Cleric can get some really quite brutal Save Penalties going. Get the right God and you can have an Aura of Despair for another -2 to saves either on yourself or on your Lesser Planar Ally.

You rarely see discussion of Clerics going this route, because Wizards can own you so thoroughly that in a sense it doesn't much matter - and also because the demonstration of Cleric > Fighter is so much more obviously true and usually plenty for players to demonstrate imbalance in the system.

-Username17

[Roy]

Roy,

you might have a point if "useless after level 5" was the claim you made, but you didn't make that claim anywhere. You said that level-appropriate ACs do not exist, because monsters hit you on 2s. You later alluded to the idea that this is true only at high levels by explaining by means of monster attack scaling (which looks more like +2 per level to me for giants and elementals) but didn't say at what level it became irrelevant.

Also the claim you're now pretending to have made is still wrong.

A Fire Giant is a CR 10 brute. It attacks as +2.

Let's make a cleric.

10 (base)
+10 (+2 Mithril Full Plate, or Magic Vestment) (14,500 gold)
+2 (dex--start with 10 and get a dex item, a cat's grace, or wish bonuses) (16,000 gold, minute a level buffs not practical, wish bonuses more expensive)
+2 (amulet of Natural Armor) (8,000 gold)
+4 (shield of faith--either persist this, cast immediately before entering the dungeon, or buy a +2 ring of prot and live with lower numbers) (8,000 gold and AC 26, rendering your statement invalid as the cost to permanently increase your CL by 2 is much higher, short term stuff like prayer beads is still higher, and not worth it on minute/level buffs)

Bold mine. So you've done all that, spent 46,500/49,000 gold, still didn't achieve your goal and oh yeah, did I mention you spent 95% of your total cash on just AC stuff just to achieve terrible results vs one of the weaker level 10 melee brutes? Lol, turtle fail for the loss.

Even if you use Magic Vestment instead of the +2 on armor that only saves 4k, so you're still using around 7/8th your total cash.

[Orion]

What goal didn't I achieve? My goal was to "not be hit on 2" which requires an AC of 23.

10
+8 Full Plate
+2 Large Shield
+4 Magic Vestment X 2
Total: 24

If this cleric attacks with spells instead of weapons he didn't even gimp his offense.

Even assuming
--No minute/level buffs
--No wishes
--mediocre stats
--no defensive magic items

I still didn't get hit on a 2.

Commentary:

--Other classes will have better AC; no "self only" buffs were used, so a fighter or rogue would have better AC because of DEX.

--in any "dungeon" situation, minute/level buffs should always be in effect

--given any gold at all I can get a couple more points

--in a campaign with organic treasure acquisition, +1 and +2 AC items generally should be considered to cost 75% of list price

[Red_Rob]

So far, the facts that no-one seems to be disputing are:

Save DC's for most effects should start around 14-15 and increase by 1 per level to be in line with existing powers.

A/C should start between 15-20 and increases by around 2 per level.

To hit bonus increases faster than Armour Class.

Spell effects are the best guideline for which effects are appropriate at various levels, however spells do have limitations which must be taken into account.

Is there anything I could look at to get an idea of a fair system for working out how much damage a character should be able to do with a round of attacks at various levels?

Also, on a side note, has anyone playtested the Tome feats for general use? I have heard the Tome Fighter is a bit Uber with the new feats, but how do they impact the rest of the classes? Has anyone put together a list of non-combat feats to complement them, or are they considered more of a Tome Fighter class feature?

[Judging__Eagle]

In my own experience watching Tome Samurai, Tome Barbarians, PHB wizards with Tome PrCs; Tome Monks, PHB Druids and Tome Assassins; the Tome Fighter is on par.

The Tome Barbarian is on par with about everyone when it comes to raw damage every round.

Hitting 30-40 str at level 10-11 isn't that hard. Meaning a +10 to +15 str mod.

Average rage damage at level 11 is 17 (3.5*5 (5d6)).

A scaling magic weapon is a +4 at level 11.

Totalled, that's +25 to +30 to damage. That's with a bit of min-maxing. With more, you can get well past that, say by combining things that really boost str, like size boosts.

PCs dealing 70-300 damage per round over 2 to 9 attacks isn't uncommon. Some PCs will hit difficult to hit targets with low resilience, but high defenses, others will hit very tough targets with lots of resilience, but low defenses.

Against equal level encounters, they deal with them in different manners, and all have no problem dealing with lower level encounters in large numbers.

Hitting isn't a concern after a while; and the GM can seriously magical tea party some aspects of combat, due to having an understanding of how much damage a PC will deal with their most used attack routines.

Eventually it's number of attacks that matter more than the damage dice rolled. For most characters, a single swing is 30-50 damage, and 3 swings is 120-150 damage. Most CR 11 creatures crumple under such an onslaught.

Since they hit on a 2+, and can sometimes hit on a 1, the PCs can easily realize a lot more damage when the PA. With ways to multiply their damage, they can realize massive amounts of damage dealt per round.

That's normal, and all melee characters will deal that much damage; or equivalent (i.e. ability damage, negative levels, etc.).



High level play is crazy

In my current game, one melee PC is all about having high str with lots of natural attacks [scorpionfolk 7/monster of legend 2/deathknight 2; +11 BaB, 40-something str; counts as 'huge'; max speed 40 (70 hasted); 6 'scimitar' attacks, 2 pincers, 1 stinger].

An other is all about having large str, rage dice, and punching with lifedrinker gauntlets [vampire malenti 2/ barb 9; +11 BaB; 32 str, medium, max speed 90 (120 hasted); 6 'gauntlet' attacks].

A third is a Samurai, and is also a Redcap [Redcap 2/Samurai 9; +10 BaB; 30 str; max speed 30 (60 hasted); 60 fly (good) (90 hasted; 2 attacks].


If they charge

The barb will drop many things, thanks to whirlwind and relentless rage.

The scorpionfolk has such a high Con, that he can soak more damage that could be dealt in a single round, even by most PCs.

The Redcap can Kiai! on his charges, and then ... well, we'll see. He has only been in one large battle.

In a face to face fight

The Barb will tear stuff up; as will the Death Knight. They're pretty neck and neck when it comes to straight out damage. They both have lots of attacks; the Barb uses Rage dice and Lifedrinker gauntlets to burn down enemies.

The Scorpionfolk relies on massive str and a stream of attacks with large weapons; 3 more than the Barb; to do their damage.

The samurai has decent damage, and their Kiai! allows them to really ramp up damage in a single hit, or not. Usually they have enough for a whole day's worth of an adventure. With a pool of 2+ 1/2 Class level, it's a pretty decent pool.

Weird things

The Barb is fast. Able to charge further than some enemies can Run. Meaning, if you're on a straight line away, and moving at 3x your speed, they can still catch you, and pounce you.

The Death Knight shines when it comes to being able to avoid all possible attack, is a grapple-monster (+32 modifier, it can seriously grapple a Roc, and hope to win).

The Samurai can Kiai on a charge. I'd say that if they had Mounted Combat, and used a mount, it would be more interesting, much more damage would be dealt as a result.

[Roy]

So far, the facts that no-one seems to be disputing are:

Save DC's for most effects should start around 14-15 and increase by 1 per level to be in line with existing powers.

A/C should start between 15-20 and increases by around 2 per level.

Wrong. If it only increases by 2 a level, to hit bonuses will still catch up. They'll take longer to do so, but a completely unoptimized level 20 melee brute has a to hit of +58, so if your AC is 55-60, they still auto hit and can PA up to 5.

Is there anything I could look at to get an idea of a fair system for working out how much damage a character should be able to do with a round of attacks at various levels?

Yes. As I said, look at enemy HP. Consider how much damage it will take to drop them. Do that much in 1 round, maybe 2 if you're feeling like taking a massive risk. Don't just look at HP though, consider the other stuff. A level 20 wizard is easily the hardest level 20 enemy to take out, despite likely having the lowest HP due to your extremely low chance to ever affect him with anything, ever to get to that HP.

[Username17]

The point with ACs is that unlike with Saves/DCs, Saves and ACs don't have in game parity. They don't have n-game parity between each other and they don't have in-game parity between PCs and NPCs. In general, Monsters have higher to-hits and lower ACs than player characters do. Look at the Giant progression, it gains more than one BAB per level in addition to adding Strength, and in most cases, getting superior gear. This causes his attack bonus to rise substantially level to level. The Stone Giant has a +16 to-hit at level 8, and the Fire Giant has +20 to-hit at level 10, in both cases before equipment. After equipment, the Fire Giant is expected to have a +3 Greatsword and the Stone Giant is expected to fight with a greatclub, so the real difference is +16 to +23 or so in 2 levels. But the ACs don't really change at all. Before magic (the Fire Giant is expected to have more and better magic equipment), the Stone Giant walks in with an AC of 25, and the Fire Giant with a 23. After equipment, they basically have the same AC, 2 levels later!

Giant Spiders are even worse. The level 8 Giant Spider has a +15 to-hit, and the level 11 Giant Spider has a +26 (keep in mind that none of them have any equipment because they are spiders, not giants). Their AC goes up, but only at the rate of 1 per level (19-22). Clearly, the brute monsters are not supposed to have their ACs keeping up with their own attacks, and they do not. A Fire Giant hits itself on a 2, a Giant Spider hits itself on a 2, and so on. The assumption appears to be that high level brute monsters will hit, and furthermore that they will use power attack and hit anyway.

The defense that large monsters have is simple phenomenal numbers of hit points. You just hit them. Like, a lot. And then the damage from an individual attack just doesn't matter that much because a level 11 Giant Spider has 208 hit points. Performing meaningfully in the "does damage" arena therefore requires doing a lot of damage. A Flask Rogue at 10th level can probably one way or another chuck 4 flasks for 6d6 damage each. That's 81 damage, which is enough to get rid of a 142 hit point giant in about 2 rounds. Which is good, because the Giant in question has 3 attacks for 28 damage plus Power Attack each per round, and a 10th level Rogue has 37 Hit Points plus 10xCon Bonus and can probably take like 2 of those hits before himself dropping.

Eliminating people with Damage is a very different world than eliminating people with SoDs and coup de grace.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

In my own experience watching Tome Samurai, Tome Barbarians, PHB wizards with Tome PrCs; Tome Monks, PHB Druids and Tome Assassins; the Tome Fighter is on par.

Well you just listed only the most powerful classes in the game there, the classes which most people agree need some toning down. So maybe the Tome Fighter is on that list?

PCs dealing 70-300 damage per round over 2 to 9 attacks isn't uncommon. Some PCs will hit difficult to hit targets with low resilience, but high defenses, others will hit very tough targets with lots of resilience, but low defenses.

Against equal level encounters, they deal with them in different manners, and all have no problem dealing with lower level encounters in large numbers.

Yes, I understand that not every character will be the same. All I am trying to establish are some general guidelines for what values of different things you should expect to see at various levels. A character focussed on some aspect will obviously be a few points higher at the expense of other things, however, I would hope that things stay in the same general area to prevent vertical advancement problems.

High level play is crazy

I would hope crazy as in "Wow, the players have so many cool abilities they can all contribute to almost any problem". Thats workable. If you mean rules-break-down "Well i have +5 and he has +50, so what the hell is the point in rolling" kind of crazy where the players and mosters specialities are so overdeveloped that there is only binary pass/fail then thats not so good.

Wrong. If it only increases by 2 a level, to hit bonuses will still catch up. They'll take longer to do so, but a completely unoptimized level 20 melee brute has a to hit of +58, so if your AC is 55-60, they still auto hit and can PA up to 5.

I'm asking what, approximately, the current system produces. As in, if I take a random level 5 character, what range would his AC be in? Similarly if I want to make a scaling Tome feat, or a new monster, what powers can I expect the players to have at various levels.

So, I'm actually asking what, using the rules as they stand, can I expect players AC to increase each level as a rough guideline? Is a Level 20 character with 55-60 believeable in the current system, too high or too low?

I was hoping that I could draw up a kind of chart giving a reasonable range for each ability at varying levels. I guess given the way stats interact and the possibility for one defence to cover for another this might be a little too difficult and simplistic a way of doing it.

But the ACs don't really change at all. Before magic (the Fire Giant is expected to have more and better magic equipment), the Stone Giant walks in with an AC of 25, and the Fire Giant with a 23. After equipment, they basically have the same AC, 2 levels later!

Giant Spiders are even worse. The level 8 Giant Spider has a +15 to-hit, and the level 11 Giant Spider has a +26 (keep in mind that none of them have any equipment because they are spiders, not giants). Their AC goes up, but only at the rate of 1 per level (19-22). Clearly, the brute monsters are not supposed to have their ACs keeping up with their own attacks, and they do not. A Fire Giant hits itself on a 2, a Giant Spider hits itself on a 2, and so on. The assumption appears to be that high level brute monsters will hit, and furthermore that they will use power attack and hit anyway.

Frank, just because the monsters will hit themselves with a 2 does not mean they are assumed to always hit PC's on a 2. In an RPG it is fun for players attacks to have effects rather than regularly missing, therefore I can see a real argument for monsters to have lower AC and more HP than the PC's. The examples you've shown and the CR5 HP list I looked at earlier both seem to show this philosophy is present at least in the MM monsters. Would you expect a lvl 8 PC to have AC around 19? Is 22 roughly appropriate for a lvl 11 PC?

Eliminating people with Damage is a very different world than eliminating people with SoDs and coup de grace.

True. I suppose with a SoD you contribute nothing if the enemy fails his save, whereas Hit Point damage adds up over time. But then the target effectively gets an "armor class based" save vs attacks so you could say spells are "Save or Die" whilst attacks are "Save or lose some hp". At least for enemies with low AC this could be considered a "weak save" that it may make sense to target with attacks over spells.

Would a change to the "massive damage" rule to make the DC of the save 10+damage taken/10 hurt the monsters more than the players if they rely on HP more? Would this still be too easy given monsters huge Con scores? At least this may give Warriors a "semi SoD" effect once the monsters HP scales out of their capacity to easily 1 hit KO.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well, to be fair, the Wizard can hit in melee almost as well as the hardcore melee characters.

There's no real 'binary' situations. The PCs can all hit their targets in combat, b/c monsters cap out around 20-something AC; maybe 30 something on a "high" AC creature; and PC to-Hit keeps climbing and climbing; with +15 being something even a non-combat PC will acheive. A Bard with say, 8 base str, +5 from Wishes, +4 from buffs; +1 from haste, and a +4 weapon has a +16 to hit (+8 BaB, +1 haste, +4 weapon, +3 str (17 str; 8+5+4). The reason it doesn't matter that the Bard can hit a Balor is not to-hit, but rather damage done per hit. The Barbarian can hack off steaks off of their targets; while a Bard is usually still relying on base weapon damage, weapon magic bonus, and maybe a str mod lower than +10.

He's a cloud giant with 10th lvl wizard and 1st lvl conduit abilities (really, Wiz 9/Conduit 1/Stranger w/ Burning Eyes 1). So, there's the Str, and magic weapon, and some BaB; so he can hit AC's in the 20's pretty much 50%+ of the time.

His BaB is shit though, and he doesn't have anything really big to beef up his damage. However, he could plough through trash like Orcs or Trolls with no problem.

Most of the time, really all of the time, he just uses Magic Jar, but he needs to be more careful, and have a tiny body near him so that he can escape into it in case he gets killed.

Maybe a leetle birdie, or some sort of flyer or creature that can go Ethereal; that he can Magic Jar into if his current body dies, and have each of the other PCs carry one as well, to give him redundancy.

He's already died once b/c he had no 'spare' bodies nearby; and his 'bodies' tend to not be very tough, or have lots of good resilience.

Regarding "special abilities" yeah, they've got them.

The scorpionfolk PC is played by someone that had a cleric, and he liked the spell Stonemeld. He wanted to play a 'Monster of Legend' templated creature, and eventually decided that having spellcasting as 5th level Cleric was better than a fire breath every 1d4 rounds, or whatever. He's like a living torpedo in natural caves, or outside. Able to duck out of most creatures sight, and then pop out to attack once, and/or, full attack.

The Monk air walks; and can shoot fire; he can tank like no one else since he can get concealment with one of his fighting styles. Dealing ability damage (dex/con; 1.5 of each multiplied by 8 attacks)

The players have seen the effects of miss chance on their attacks once. So they will hopefully realize how the Monk doesn't really need 'AC', but can still be defended against attacks.

The Barbarian is a de-buffer as well as melee dps character; due to having two Lifedrinker enchants on her Gauntlets; so anything that the character fights, and isn't undead/constructs, usually suffers 6 negative levels per round; which is sort of a big deal.

The Samurai is a melee/ranged damage dealer, which is something that the other character aren't. He's slightly better equipped, with winged boots (the other melee's don't have flying. >_>), and can use Kiai with ranged weapons.

Right now, there's no Knight, to really show what a lot of damage can look like, but that's fine.

Maybe a fiendish knight that is very large, on a flying mount; and who throws a returning spear, or just out and out uses a bow or throwing weapons and TWF.

[Username17]

Frank, just because the monsters will hit themselves with a 2 does not mean they are assumed to always hit PC's on a 2. In an RPG it is fun for players attacks to have effects rather than regularly missing, therefore I can see a real argument for monsters to have lower AC and more HP than the PC's. The examples you've shown and the CR5 HP list I looked at earlier both seem to show this philosophy is present at least in the MM monsters. Would you expect a lvl 8 PC to have AC around 19? Is 22 roughly appropriate for a lvl 11 PC?

Roy oversells the case against AC, but only by a little bit. You actually can have an AC that matters at 10th level. I mean, your enemies "only" have a +22-+27 to-hit. Meaning that to have the equivalent of a 28k blink effect, you "only" need an AC of about 33 to 38.

Under basic rules that's Mithril Plate Armor and Shield and an additional 10 to 15 points of bonuses. That's a lot, but it can be done. A +2 Enhancement to the Armor and the Shield is effectively free since it comes from unupgraded magic vestment at that level. If you're not fighting under the effects of prayer by that point it's because you're some kind of moron, and you could very plausibly have a recitation going much of the time - so your AC has a +1 to +3 Luck Bonus, also basically for free. So you're only really tweaking yourself for +5 to +8 in bonuses that actually have meaningful cost. If you go down the Tactical Feat route you quite likely had to take Dodge as a pre-req for Elusive Target, which is a shit deal for +1 AC but you have to have it anyhow. That and a +4 Amulet of Natty Armor brings you to the coveted AC of 33 that keeps most Level 10 Brutes missing you half the time.

So in total you're out a few underleveled spell slots and some feats you wanted anyway and a little over half your wealth by level. Which altogether is not really worth what you could have achieved in most cases with a Ring of Blink and telling your AC to fuck off - but it's nowhere near as hopeless as Roy keeps painting it.

Of course, it does get harder level by level to keep up from there. But Wealth By Level doesn't even pretend to work in the levels past 10th, so I don't see that as much of an argument.

-Username17

[Roy]

Wrong. If it only increases by 2 a level, to hit bonuses will still catch up. They'll take longer to do so, but a completely unoptimized level 20 melee brute has a to hit of +58, so if your AC is 55-60, they still auto hit and can PA up to 5.

I'm asking what, approximately, the current system produces. As in, if I take a random level 5 character, what range would his AC be in? Similarly if I want to make a scaling Tome feat, or a new monster, what powers can I expect the players to have at various levels.

So, I'm actually asking what, using the rules as they stand, can I expect players AC to increase each level as a rough guideline? Is a Level 20 character with 55-60 believeable in the current system, too high or too low?

55-60 is not currently believeable at all.

Without any turtle fail whatsoever:

Base 10.
+5 mithril full plate = +13.
+5 animated heavy shield = +7.
16 dexterity (likely requires a +4 item) = +3.
+5 natural armor = +5.
+5 deflection = +5.
Pink ioun stone = +1.

AC 44. Total cost to get this = Minimum of 205,500 gold. (35.5k + 49k + 16k + 50k + 50k + 5k) I say minimum because you need heavy fort somewhere on there to avoid being gibbed like a level 1 mook. The only place it will fit is on the armor, and that adds another 75,000 gold for a total of 280,500 gold. Hopefully I don't have to explain to anyone here why heavy fort is absolutely mandatory to your continued existence.

So anyways, that's 37% of your total cash on AC, and the level appropriate melee brutes are hitting you on negative 14s, and can therefore Power Attack for 16, and still auto hit.

Add on some +5 defending armor spikes and your AC goes up to 49 for a total cost of 352,500 gold, or about 47% of your total. Nearly half your cash, and you're still getting Power Attacked for 11 and still auto hit by completely unoptimized melee brutes.

So what happens when a completely unoptimized melee brute Power Attacks for 11 and still auto hits?

32-60 + 20-29 + 20-29 + 20-31 + 20-31 + 22-43 = 134-223, 178.5 average damage, or enough to take off over 80% of your health in one round, leaving you at around oh... 36 HP. Except oh wait, you take residual damage just by approaching in the form of an AoO. That happens to do an average damage of exactly 46, which is exactly enough to kill you. And as an added bonus it stuffs your corpse into its maw as a free action. Yummy mook.

Yup, that AC really saved your life there didn't it?

And even if you did have 55-60, well you wouldn't be Power Attack bait so much anymore, but enemies still won't have a hard time hitting you.

So the recommended range for AC is 'forget about it' since you're never going to get it high enough on most characters and the few that can get it to decent levels have better options anyways.

Frank, just because the monsters will hit themselves with a 2 does not mean they are assumed to always hit PC's on a 2. In an RPG it is fun for players attacks to have effects rather than regularly missing, therefore I can see a real argument for monsters to have lower AC and more HP than the PC's. The examples you've shown and the CR5 HP list I looked at earlier both seem to show this philosophy is present at least in the MM monsters. Would you expect a lvl 8 PC to have AC around 19? Is 22 roughly appropriate for a lvl 11 PC?

With enemy attack bonuses scaling at about 3 a level, player AC scaling by an amount significantly less than 3 a level, and an RNG that only cares about a 20 level range? Either monsters are assumed to always hit PCs on a 2, or the designers didn't think this shit through at all. Either is about equally likely I'd say.

True. I suppose with a SoD you contribute nothing if the enemy fails his save, whereas Hit Point damage adds up over time. But then the target effectively gets an "armor class based" save vs attacks so you could say spells are "Save or Die" whilst attacks are "Save or lose some hp". At least for enemies with low AC this could be considered a "weak save" that it may make sense to target with attacks over spells.

Nope. See that enemy over there with 1 HP? He has exactly the same offensive power as the one with max HP. Incrementing an invisible counter does not mean contributing. If the save or die fails it's not really doing anything, but if it succeeds then the enemy's offense is actually reduced. Whereas with damage you have to do truly monumental amounts, upwards of 400 a round endgame in order to even begin to influence combat with it.

Would a change to the "massive damage" rule to make the DC of the save 10+damage taken/10 hurt the monsters more than the players if they rely on HP more? Would this still be too easy given monsters huge Con scores? At least this may give Warriors a "semi SoD" effect once the monsters HP scales out of their capacity to easily 1 hit KO.

Nope. All that would happen is that you've given everyone free vorpals. Expect swarms of mooks to all attack, since you're only going to fail saves on a 1, only volume of attacks matters. And all you've done is screw the melee characters more. If the Fighter gets lucky and the Balor rolls a 1, great, Balor's dead. And he just exploded so he might have killed the Fighter anyways. But ignoring that, there will always be more Balors. Now what happens when the Balor, or any other enemy really makes the Fighter roll a 1? Exactly.

As for the AC bit... Really Frank? Really?

Prayer = 1 round a level.
Recitation = 1 round a level.

So either the Cleric is using DMM: Persist to keep these effects going the entire time, or the Cleric is burning 2 combat actions each and every combat to put them up.

If the former, you should be able to easily field better numbers than absolute minimum values at exorbitant costs. I know because I had a game where Persistent spell was involved and most of the party had an AC in the high 50s at level 15-17 (and it still didn't do too much, but was high enough to make enemies miss from time to time).

If the latter you're burning a lot of resources as well as actions. And that's 3rd and 4th level spell slots, which are not quite top level but are close enough to still be useful. All that for +3 to some stuff? Really? Now those are nice spells if you can persist them, but if not? Better things to do.

That's starting to edge in on MaxFael territory there. For those that don't know, Maxperson was this dense little twit that seemed to think Fighters were just fine without magic items, because with the entire party propping up the gimp instead of doing more useful and level appropriate actions he could 6 round a Balor, ignoring the fact it kills him with a passing glance as even with those things his saves are only low teens.

The difference however is that Frank is not Maxperson, he is far more intelligent than Maxperson, so it bewilders me why he would suggest things like Prayer and Recitation for AC boosting without some kind of stipulation such as Persistent spell.

[ubernoob]

Metamagic rods of quicken were also mentioned.

[Orion]

Furthermore, remember that:

1: You sometimes fight things lower-level than yourself. For non-casters, the ability to fight horde monsters often comes from getting enough AC to ignore them.

Since Level 20 was brought up:

2: In situations where you can pre-buff, ridiculous levels of AC buffing are possible. One could add to Frank Trollman's example with Holy Aura (AoE +4 Deflection, or +5 from individual Shield of Faiths), Haste (+1 Dodge, from items or casters), Reduce Person (+2 AC).

Polymorph, if allowed, is HUGE. Without any kind of type-abuse or dumpster diving, turning into a Stone Giant gives you 13 DEX and +10 Natural Armor, while stille benefitting fully from cat's grace and your Amulet of Natural Armor.

3: -to hit effects exist. There are a number of ways to make enemies Shaken (-2) or entangled (-4)

I haven't crunched the numbers on level 20 yet because I don't care, but several of these tricks are available at level 10. none of which is to say that focusing on AC is effective, only that monster misses do happen.

[Lich-Loved]

You're just walking in with the absolute bear minimum save DCs for a PC of your level. And you cast wall of stone.

And while 3.5 added some incredibly complicated bullshit to that spell about how you had to put walls between squares and not "in" squares, they left the wording about freezing people in blocks of stone right there at the end.

I know this is a late post (been busy and all so just now catching up on my reading) but it is not possible to trap anyone inside a wall of stone:

This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.

I cannot balance this sentence against the one against to which you refer:

It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.

except to speculate that they are referring to dropping a wall of stone atop someone. The "within" in this latter quote is direct opposition to the point in bold above and I have no idea what they were trying to communicate.

I bring this up not to disagree with the larger argument but just to clarify a point.

[hogarth]

I cannot balance this sentence against the one against to which you refer:

It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.

except to speculate that they are referring to dropping a wall of stone atop someone.

They're talking about trapping a monster under a hemisphere of stone, for instance (similar to the Wall of Ice spell, for instance).

[Username17]

Recitation and Prayer do not stack. One is simply a higher level and optional version of the other that provides +3/-2 instead of +1/-1 at the cost of only applying the -2 to enemies that are in the area when the spell is cast.

But seriously, one way or another, you'll have a Luck Bonus. May not be a big one, but you will have one. Furthermore, you're probably going to have a Deflection Bonus, since players tend to spend most of their dungeoneering time inside a Magic Circle Against Evil.

It's totally doable to have a defensive character that can simultaneously hold his own or even shut down Giants of his level. It's not even hard, you just need to get an AC vs. Evil Things in the ~45 range. If you combine that with a good trip, a nasty touch attack, or any of a number of other things along those lines, you can basically be a one-man giant killer so long as you stay indoors so that Giants can't just go around you.

It's not a glamorous life, and it falls apart hard in a few levels when you start getting poked by the titanic elementals and shit - but if it stays viable in skilled hands out to 10th to 12th level, that's already better than most D&D warrior strategies fare. Walking up and hitting things with auto-attack pretty much expires at level 6 because next level the Cleric is going to remember that h can personally summon a better autoattacker than you. Like I said, Roy is basically correct that AC is overpriced and not good enough for what it does. But he is overselling his point to the extent that his posts are no longer "true."

Being an AC guy who specializes in touch attacks (up to and including trips and grapples) is totally reasonable. And functional so long as you aren't subjected to swarms or mind flayers or other creatures that function based on saves and just don't fucking care. When you're pulling touch attacks, enemy giants have an AC of like 10 or 11, so you can grab the plus five AC from Expertise without even caring. It doesn't work at level 20, because brute monsters at that level don't really matter and wouldn't care about your AC anyway. But it stays viable about as long as a griffin lancer or frenzied berserker does, so that's what qualifies as "good" in 3e D&D Warrior Town.

-Username17

[schpeelah]

Maybe it's supposed to allow moving out if you try to trap somebody inside a stone dome? The "under" seems to suggest that.

Edit: God-fucking-dammit. Ninja'd hard. That's what happens when you open all unread threads at once and then read them.

[Psychic Robot]

Roy's suggestion of making AC gear cost 60% of its normal cost seems like a pretty good idea. Also, all of this depends on how much your players optimize. The group I play with has a mounted combat bard. She rides a buffalo. She's not exactly a powerhouse.

[Orion]

AC items already cost 50-75% of list price in games with organic treasure anyway.

PS: does anyone know why Roy feels Fortification is important? I can't imagine why. I mean it's disingenuous of him to put the enchantment cost in the "ac" column, but I don't understand why it's necessary in the first place.

[imperialspectre]

Keeps you from getting shredded by sneak attacks.

[ubernoob]

Keeps you from getting shredded by sneak attacks.

Also, the calculations he did that resulted in the warrior type barely surviving a single full attack assume no crits. If there are crits, the warrior type is in a good bit more trouble.

[Roy]

Furthermore, remember that:

1: You sometimes fight things lower-level than yourself. For non-casters, the ability to fight horde monsters often comes from getting enough AC to ignore them.

Since Level 20 was brought up:

2: In situations where you can pre-buff, ridiculous levels of AC buffing are possible. One could add to Frank Trollman's example with Holy Aura (AoE +4 Deflection, or +5 from individual Shield of Faiths), Haste (+1 Dodge, from items or casters), Reduce Person (+2 AC).

Polymorph, if allowed, is HUGE. Without any kind of type-abuse or dumpster diving, turning into a Stone Giant gives you 13 DEX and +10 Natural Armor, while stille benefitting fully from cat's grace and your Amulet of Natural Armor.

3: -to hit effects exist. There are a number of ways to make enemies Shaken (-2) or entangled (-4)

I haven't crunched the numbers on level 20 yet because I don't care, but several of these tricks are available at level 10. none of which is to say that focusing on AC is effective, only that monster misses do happen.

If you're going for deflection bonuses just cast Mass Shield of Faith. With that said lower level enemies won't be able to PA bait you, but will still have little trouble hitting.

Roy's suggestion of making AC gear cost 60% of its normal cost seems like a pretty good idea. Also, all of this depends on how much your players optimize. The group I play with has a mounted combat bard. She rides a buffalo. She's not exactly a powerhouse.

Yeah, I brought that one up a while ago. It actually caused the Paizils to ban me, which I still find hilarious.

But if you make armor and shield bonus squared * 600 gold instead of bonus squared * 1,000 gold and allow enhancement bonuses up to +8 you do get better results since you either get the same AC cheaper, or a better AC for the same price. Can't get any more special properties than usual though.

Also, optimizing is the only way you're ever going to get an AC that matters, and then only if the enemies are not optimized, else your dragons will just have +70 to hit (or simply cast Wraithstrike) and not give a fuck. As opposed to 'only' +55 or so.

AC items already cost 50-75% of list price in games with organic treasure anyway.

PS: does anyone know why Roy feels Fortification is important? I can't imagine why. I mean it's disingenuous of him to put the enchantment cost in the "ac" column, but I don't understand why it's necessary in the first place.

Keeps you from getting shredded by sneak attacks.

Also, the calculations he did that resulted in the warrior type barely surviving a single full attack assume no crits. If there are crits, the warrior type is in a good bit more trouble.

Exactly. That sample comparison using the Tarrasque who is a basic and completely unoptimized melee brute is a standard round of combat. When you're already near death off normal damage, any kicker is going to put you down fast. Of course the AoO on the way in will still do it, so you better hope you can full attack it down in 1 round but if any one of those crits the warrior guy is fucked. Especially the 18-20/x3 one.

Remember, auto hit means auto confirmed crits as well.

It also shuts down an entire archetype (unless they use the workaround) which is far better than taking 110-660 to the face before you ever move or know you are under attack because a Rogue decides he hates you.

So yeah, necessity combined with enormous benefit for the cost.

[Orion]

Obviously this is entirely campaign-dependent, but how often do you really fight high-level rogues? Nothing in Monster Manual 1 has sneak attack, and in the one game I played up to level 18, NPCs we met at that point tended to be giants, yuan-ti, demons and the like with class levels, not 15th-level human rogues.

And with the exception of the tarrasque, most brute monsters only threaten on 20s. In terms of expected DPS that means fortification is like +1 to AC, if you can get your AC high enough that they don't hit on 1s, or like DR 2/- if they're power attacking. Admittedly, damage spikes are dangerous to PCs, although at high levels death is cheap and you already have that 5% chance of being one-shotted whenever an enemy caster goes.

[Judging__Eagle]

AC items already cost 50-75% of list price in games with organic treasure anyway.

PS: does anyone know why Roy feels Fortification is important? I can't imagine why. I mean it's disingenuous of him to put the enchantment cost in the "ac" column, but I don't understand why it's necessary in the first place.

Read Ubernoob's post.

The fact that you don't even know why Fortification is 'important' is sort of troubling.

Sort of very troubling.

Like "you probably can't make a warrior that I could ever trust to not die in 1 round, in every level appropriate fight we are ever in" troubling. I'm assuming this is because you haven't seen a lot of play in games past level say... 3; when a single monsters Critical hit can mean the difference between a PC being dropped in 1-round, or not.

When you're level 10, and have to tank the 4-man groups encounter of 4 Stone Golems, I would be in a position where I know you could easily fail at your job (melee damage and survival), and now have to do something to not only save your gimp ass, but also come up with a plan with the other players that will have us survive the encounter.

Fortification is the main line of defense that a PC has from turning consistent damage soaking from being turned into your character being reduced to a gory smear on a monsters natural weapons. Seriously, even wizards will grab Heavy Fortification once game play goes too far past level 10; and a 'warrior' should have had at least Moderate Fort since level 6-7; and will upgrade to Heavy Fort by level 10-13. Anything else means that a single enemies attacks can drop you to your negatives, even if you have 100% of your HP at the start of the round.