SAD classes: druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer.we have given a rather large boost to the MAD classes and a noticeable penalty to the SAD classed.
MAD classes: bard, ranger, paladin, monk.
Giving the MAD classes a boost is fine by me.
Moderator: Moderators
SAD classes: druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer.we have given a rather large boost to the MAD classes and a noticeable penalty to the SAD classed.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:You do not seem to do anything.Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
Golem Manuals are items that don't do anything unless and until you voltron them into an actual golem. Which of course is exactly what you're going to do with it. So they can't be a lower tier than the golem they make, but they can't in all fairness be the same tier either. They suffer from A != A, and thus cannot be made balanced.IGTN wrote:Why are Golem Manuals banned? Having a golem manual doesn't do anything, and using it just gives you a golem, so golem manuals aren't necessarily any worse than getting a golem unless I'm missing something where a golem manual on a treasure pile is different from a deactivated golem and its command codes sitting on the same treasure pile.
Who said anything about banning Golems?Crissa wrote:If golems are banned, what about hired help?
-Crissa
I had somewhere a treatise that suggested that many or most of the 'null ability score' monsters (golems, undead, and vermin mostly) could be redone with non-null ability scores and subtypes. As I recall, the two most common (Con and Int) looked something likeFrankTrollman wrote:Although, true story: the higher end golems need some help. The Iron Golem is a fucking joke. Magic Immunity and DR or not, he has 2 attacks at +23 for 22 points of damage each, a lousy 129 hit points, and an AC of 30. Coupled with a painfully slow speed, he just can't seriously threaten 13th level characters even if he's locked in a closet with them. For starters, the slams of a Golem should be level appropriate scaling magic weapons. And they need a replacement for Con modifiers to Hit Points that actually scales to level. I suggest just giving them Strength modifier instead of that bullshit Size Modifier. When the Iron Golem walks in there with two attacks at +28 for 27 points a pop and has an additional 168 hit points, then it becomes something that a 13th level character has to take seriously. I mean, a Flask Rogue will still take them apart, and a Mage can still box them up with silent image, but at least they can do some serious damage against a PC before they drop if they actually get into melee.
-Username17
A reasonable and straightforward solution. For incorporeal undead it's probably reasonable to use Cha there, as I recall all in core have Cha 12+.FrankTrollman wrote:Writing in Con scores for all the Unliving undead was a lot of work. And actually something of a requirement if those undead types were to become playable, which many of them are. But it's really a lot of work. And you get comparable numbers by simply arbitrarily announcing some attribute for the creatures to get Hit Points from. Constitution doesn't really do anything vital other than that. So a lot of monsters just grab hit points off of Charisma (a stat which is otherwise similarly useless). And for monsters that have pretty much arbitrary attributes and hit dice, that's sufficient. The challenge then, is simply to find an attribute that scales properly for Golems.
And as it happens, it's Strength. That's seriously the solution: NPC Constructs get hit points from Strength Bonus instead of Constitution.
Done.
-Username17
Absolutely. There's a reason why Diablo has only one item or less drop from the corpse of a fully armed and armored soldier - and it's because that is a fuck tonne easier to keep track of. However, we solidly rejected that sort of thing even before we saw what a hash 4e made out of the concept.Ferret wrote:Did you guys ever look at having Attuned magic items mostly -break- when their bearer dies?
Some kind of difficult save for each item such that you don't get the huge pile of miscellaneous / redundant items as you roll through levels?
This method would introduce a massive amount of uncertainty into item acquisition, aswell as add a lot of dice rolling. Some levels you could get no items, the next level everyone could get a full set of new gear.Ferret wrote:Did you guys ever look at having Attuned magic items mostly -break- when their bearer dies?
Some kind of difficult save for each item such that you don't get the huge pile of miscellaneous / redundant items as you roll through levels?
See it doesn't bother me at all that you can find a suit of fullplate in the room with the demon who is statted using leather armor.Judging__Eagle wrote: They might grab the stuff, or not; and it doesn't matter to the game.
Honestly, the Baldur's Gate model for loot is one I prefer over the Diablo model for loot. It feels more honest, and less like I'm being lied to.
The guy with a magic sword, will drop a magic sword. Bandits with bows can be killed for their weapons and arrows, etc.
Spells don't affect attended items unless the owner rolls a 1 on their saving throw (or unless the item itself is the target). Even on the natural 1 save, IIRC only one item is affected.souran wrote:Also, if the bad guys have to wear anything your going to find then things like the effect of fireball and disentigrate on magic items becomes key to the tatics of the game and honestly that sucks. Having the treasure in the adventure get broken in order to take it is just not fun.
Using PHB prices a Masterwork suit of Plate Mail and Greatsword runs you around 2,000gp. DMG WBL for level 2 runs at 900gp.FrankTrollman wrote:So here are derivable points:
- Level 2:[/b] Any item that is not a minor magic item can be upgraded to a masterwork version.
So, each PC should theoretically be able to buy up to 8 minor items. If we assume a base of 2,000gp per minor item, thats 16,000gp. DMG WBL is currently 19,000gp.FrankTrollman wrote:[*]Level 7: Any magic item slot that does not have a medium or major magic item in it can be filled with a semi-customizable minor magic item. This could easily be achieved by level 5, if the PCs fight a lot of Kaorti or Drow.
Assuming Medium items run an average of 12,000gp we hit 96,000gp to fully equip with medium items. DMG WBL runs at 88,000gp. And once you have achieved that your gold expenditure is basically done as a means of increasing your combat potential as any higher level items are Wish economy. So that leads to the total gold haul over an aventurers career of around 100,000gp before he enters the Wish economy and gold ceases to be useful as a means of purchasing what he requires.FrankTrollman wrote:[*] Level 12: Any magic item slot not filled with a major or epic magic item can be filled with a semi-customizable medium magic item. This could easily be achieved by level 9, if the PCs do something like Chain Binding.[/list]
Following the philosophy of the Economicon, players will be unable to purchase Major items with Gold and will therefore be trading Major items they have obtained or using Wish Economy materials to purchase these. How this would interact with the WBL system is still to be determined. The easiest way would be to leave item costs as they are and assign Wish economy materials a "gp equivalence" that can be used to purchase Major items. So, an Astral Diamond may have a 20,000gp "value" for purchasing Major items. In this scenario the WBL tables would remain, however gold and gems would no longer be counted as wealth.FrankTrollman wrote:And that suggests:
- Level 17: Any magic item slot not filled with an epic magic item can be filled with a semi-customizable major magic item.
If the availability of the 'art' items is down to DM fiat, how is this different to the 4ed method of "choose which items your players get and they can't sell them"? With the 'art' method, the DM tells you what items are for sale and if you want something else, that's tough.FrankTrollman wrote:Indeed, the solution we were leaning towards was:
Minor Magic Items are like technology in the Gold Economy - if you want a fire sword or a poison blade, you can go to the shops and track one down.
Medium Magic Items are like art in the Gold Economy. Oathbows and Lifestealers exist, and are traded for gold, but they are like works of art and there is no guarantee of you being able to track one down or that any one of them is not unique.
Major Magic Items are like technology in the Wish Economy. If you have some planar pearls or some souls, you can go to Finality or Sigil and track down a Ring of Telekinesis or Regeneration and buy one.
Artifacts are like Art in the Wish Economy. While The Sword of Kas may well sell in an auction for some Raw Chaos or something, there's only one of it. And if the current owner is using it right now, it's not for sale at all.
Whilst this does reduce the problem somewhat, does it solve the problem of the Wizard taking the money the fighter spent on a minor magic sword, armor, shield and bow to stay relevant in combat and spending it on a Medium headband of intellect boosting + spell storing/some other enhancement? The fact remains the Wizard doesn't really need items at all to compete so any bonus is just gravy.FrankTrollman wrote:Once we throw down with the idea that items scale automagically to character level and don't get bigger or smaller than that, we have given a rather large boost to the MAD classes and a noticeable penalty to the SAD classed. Wizards don't really give a fuck about anything but their Headband of Intellect and some defensive items, leading most Wizards to jump on the +6 Headband around level 10. With scaling items, they get their Headband of Intellect +2 at level 4, and at level 10 it grows to a +4. That's substantially behind the curve for what Wizards get out of the DMG, even as getting your +4 Sword coming online at level 10 is a substantial benefit for Paladins.
Whilst I agree that short cuts to infinite Wishes is a good way to end the game, if there are no items to allow non-casters to participate in the Wish economy doesn't that make the Wish economy even more of a caster-only party, with everyone else sat on the outside looking in? I mean, planar travel and item creation are already monopolised by spellcasters. This would make it even harder for Rogues and Warriors to play with the big boys.FrankTrollman wrote:Banned Magic Item Powers
3 Wishes, or even 1 wish. Or really anything that simply and directly interacts with the Wish Economy.
Surely no-one does this in a tabletop game? I thought that was a purely videogame convention. Hell, even the presence of chests with combat-worthy items in seem suspect. Its like keeping your gun locked in the bedroom whilst invaders are breaking down your door.Crissa wrote:I think it's much better that you just fought a guy weilding a +3 flaming sword than fought a guy who was using a sword but there was a better mace sitting on the table behind him
Yeah, but 2nd level characters can just build that stuff if it comes down to it. And the vast majority of team members don't have equipment that costs 900 gp, so the PCs could probably pool their resources and get it covered.RR wrote:Using PHB prices a Masterwork suit of Plate Mail and Greatsword runs you around 2,000gp. DMG WBL for level 2 runs at 900gp.
And that's the problem. No organic campaign is ever going to hand out a superfluity of minor magic items before it hands out a single Medium or Major magic item. If I had to guess, I would say that about 4 items of one tier hit the table for every one item of the next tier up. So I would expect a four person party to by the time they maxed out their slots with Minor Magic items to have like 6 or 7 Medium Magic Items and 1 or 2 Majors. And the really important thing about that, is that it does produce uneven results. At the point where Holy Avengers are "really rare" that means that one player gets one.So, each PC should theoretically be able to buy up to 8 minor items. If we assume a base of 2,000gp per minor item, thats 16,000gp. DMG WBL is currently 19,000gp.
That seems reasonable.Assuming Medium items run an average of 12,000gp we hit 96,000gp to fully equip with medium items. DMG WBL runs at 88,000gp. And once you have achieved that your gold expenditure is basically done as a means of increasing your combat potential as any higher level items are Wish economy. So that leads to the total gold haul over an aventurers career of around 100,000gp before he enters the Wish economy and gold ceases to be useful as a means of purchasing what he requires.
Up until the Wish economy hits, items can be bought and sold for pieces of gold, therefore there is no measurable difference between "I have a 10,000gp item" and "I have 10,000gp". The Wealth by Level table should show roughly how much Gold Piece equivalence each character should be using in equipment by that point.CatharzGodsfoot wrote:I'm pretty sure that Frank is using magic items as the measure of wealth by level, not pieces of gold.
So, taking 4>1 as a rough estimate, you would say that at the point where a level 7 character is able to fill his slots with Minor items, they would have 1 slot filled with a Medium item and one with either a Medium or a Major? Depending on how we price Major items, that would be more like 40,000gp equivalence at lvl 7. Thats a fair whack over the 19,000gp DMG recommendation.FrankTrollman wrote:No organic campaign is ever going to hand out a superfluity of minor magic items before it hands out a single Medium or Major magic item. If I had to guess, I would say that about 4 items of one tier hit the table for every one item of the next tier up. So I would expect a four person party to by the time they maxed out their slots with Minor Magic items to have like 6 or 7 Medium Magic Items and 1 or 2 Majors.