Tome Fighter - Problem Solver

[ubernoob]

How does the Tome Barbarian compare to the Tome Fighter?

I'll throw an example encounter, a CR 18 Mature Adult Red Dragon.

How does a Barbarian 18 fare against it?
How does a Fighter 18 fare against it?

Edit: For the sake of the argument, let's also say that the dragon is an enclosed space, about nine times its width (So it could stand in the middle and be a space of itself away from the wall) but only twice its height (Not enough to fly, I presume).

Except against will saves, Tome Barbarian always is weaker than Tome Fighter in every way ever. Well, unless you're below the level where the Tome Barbarian can substitute fort save for will, in which case fighter is better in every way possible.

Seriously, Tome Barbarian gets a flat +140 damage boost per round at twentieth level. Tome fighter gets more reach, all the [combat] feats he wants, and foil action. Tome barbarian is weaker against every single form of attack except will saves and on that he's only 6ish points behind the fighter.

[God_of_Awesome]

Alright.

Now, if you took Problem Solver away, how does he compare?

[Mask_De_H]

He'd still have reach, Foil action, every save cranked because the save feats are [ combat], Blitz and Combat School. And a feat that on a bad day kicks the crap out of some characters' class features. With 10 of its sexy friends.

[Kaelik]

Exactly the mother fucking same! This is not Rocket Science.

10 Tome feats > Offensive capabilities of Rage + Defensive capabilities of Rage.

10 Tome feats alone does that, without getting into Foil Action, UMD as a class skill, better skills, better profs (not that it matters much).

[God_of_Awesome]

Okay, it may seem I'm trying to justify Fighter's existence, but I really amy trying to brain storm ideas:

What if he only had a bonus feat every fifth level and first, so 4 by 18?

[Kaelik]

Burn in hell.

just die.

stop trying to justify the fighter, stop trying to fix the fighter stop trying to waste everyone's time.

There is probably a hypothetical balance point where a specific bonus feat arrangement would create a class balanced against whatever other balance point you want to create.

No one fucking cares.

Don't waste time trying to find it, spend that time making a class that isn't boring.

[ubernoob]

Burn in hell.

just die.

stop trying to justify the fighter, stop trying to fix the fighter stop trying to waste everyone's time.

There is probably a hypothetical balance point where a specific bonus feat arrangement would create a class balanced against whatever other balance point you want to create.

No one fucking cares.

Don't waste time trying to find it, spend that time making a class that isn't boring.

Took the words out of my mouth.

[CatharzGodfoot]

If a combat feat every other level is the best of all class features, that kind of blows the idea of combat feats as class features out of the water. That means that they're better than spheres.

Is that the case? Should combat feats be disallowed except as level-based bonus feats?

[ubernoob]

If a combat feat every other level is the best of all class features, that kind of blows the idea of combat feats as class features out of the water. That means that they're better than spheres.

Is that the case? Should combat feats be disallowed except as level-based bonus feats?

Wait, you thought there was a different reason that I never write bonus feats into my classes?

[God_of_Awesome]

Burn in hell.

just die.

stop trying to justify the fighter, stop trying to fix the fighter stop trying to waste everyone's time.

There is probably a hypothetical balance point where a specific bonus feat arrangement would create a class balanced against whatever other balance point you want to create.

No one fucking cares.

Don't waste time trying to find it, spend that time making a class that isn't boring.

You know, at first, I was going to write a scathing remark. Mostly a rant on how you really should stop being so bitchy about things but really? I guess you are right, in a way. The very concept of the Fighter is a bit stale. It works in fiction by way of plot armor but otherwise, eh.

I suppose I am clinging to an icon too hard.

[Kaelik]

If a combat feat every other level is the best of all class features, that kind of blows the idea of combat feats as class features out of the water. That means that they're better than spheres.

Is that the case? Should combat feats be disallowed except as level-based bonus feats?

You have to spend three spheres to get an at will level appropriate ability.

From there, you can only become more versatile.

Fighters with Combat feats on the other hand start with an ability, and each feat makes it better.

If a bog standard D&D warrior is not level appropriate, and needs +100 damage and +5 to attack at level 11 to have a level appropriate action, then you have a fighter with 5 bonus feats, and those five bonus feats grant:

+14 to attack +212 to damage +a crap ton to saves +evasion +the ability to force a stun on every hit + whatever.

The problem is that by definition every combat feat stacks onto the same actions that every other combat feat stacks onto.

I'd probably rather have three spheres than three combat feats. I'd sure as hell rather have 19 combat feats than 19 spheres. (Not really, because I like playing spellcasters, but you know, I would make a more powerful character with the combat feats.)

[Judging__Eagle]

That means that they're better than spheres.

That's a very interesting point.

I'd say that a single combat feat is worth about.... advanced access, or basic access if you're a Conduit with 'advanced' sphere access, that is, every 'lower' level spell has +1 more use than the previous level.

Getting about 3/day level appropriate; or 1/day appropriate and +bunch/ a few levels down abilities is roughly the amount of power that the average combat feat could give you.

If you pick up Heighten Spell Like ability from ToF; then all of the SLAs you have are level appropriate in terms of DCs.

Supposedly, a conduit with a different Sphere every other level, is going to be on par with a character who got combat feats instead. Supposedly.

The problem with just handing out combat feats like hot dogs is that you get builds with Blindfighting, Juggernaut, and Hordebreaker; and the player always carries a torch, doesn't grapple, and only attacks single targets whenever possible.

It also means that you can see a build with TWF, Stealthy and PBS; that throws darts for beaucoup damage, and doesn't bother tangling with melee.



Handing out combat feats makes people either really sloppy, and fail, or they tweak out, and that leads to (in some games, with certain groups) an other sort of fail.

Really, it's like playing with a person who you've never seen before, and they play a wizard.

They could cast Magic Missile.

They could cast Enlarge Person.

They could cast Cone of Cold.

They could cast Magic Jar.

You really don't know what's going to happen, until it does, and you can be disappointed with the results no matter which is chosen. Either because they suck, or because they suddenly made you smaller in the pants.


I think that the RoW fighter might be best used when everyone at the table is able to only pick that class instead of the other RoW martial classes.

Even with everyone playing the 'same' class, you will very unlikely see any two characters with the same set of abilities.

Since wizards are the balance point of the SAME game test; and the RoW fighter was meant to be the martial equivalent of the Wizard, that would help keep things in the game more 'basic', but still allow a lot of inter-PC variety. Some days, 'infinite classes' gets to be tedious.

---

You have to spend three spheres to get an at will level appropriate ability.

Remember Heighten SLA from ToF. It makes all of your Sphere SLAs level appropriate; and at that point broad-basing becomes much more viable, since all of your SLA DCs are the 'highest' possible at all times.

[ubernoob]

Since wizards are the balance point of the SAME game test; and the RoW fighter was meant to be the martial equivalent of the Wizard, that would help keep things in the game more 'basic', but still allow a lot of inter-PC variety. Some days, 'infinite classes' gets to be tedious.

This is exactly like getting everyone to play jedi in starwars d20. Playing the same class as the only way to create balance is actually an explicit admission that the class is not balanced with other classes. Y'know, because it can't be in the SAME GAME as other classes without problems.

You have to spend three spheres to get an at will level appropriate ability.

Remember Heighten SLA from ToF. It makes all of your Sphere SLAs level appropriate; and at that point broad-basing becomes much more viable, since all of your SLA DCs are the 'highest' possible at all times.

I don't think you quite comprehend the following things:
1) Level appropriate (chance to effect is not the only thing; actual effect is also a part of it)
2) The words 'at will'
3) Well, really anything you're trying to talk about at all.

[Judging__Eagle]

Actually, the "all fighters" party idea is the same as the "all barbarians" party idea, or the "all knights" party idea.

The difference is that the "all fighters" game is that you're trying to find difference in feat combos, not difference in melee attack methods, strength-boost, or speed-boost styles (barbarians), or attack method, defense choices, and mount choices (knights).

For the all Fighter group, it's a much wider series of choices, and you'll get much more varied characters, while everyone is still using the same chasiss. It's more an exercise in seeing potential variance within the class, than it is about how the class is supposedly so 'powerful' (really, it's not, it comes down to the player more than anything else).

The RoW classes are all pretty balanced when it comes to the only thing that was considered important in that book, "bringing a character that is at least 'this' tall" to the table.

Ultimately, that's really the only thing that matters. Can the PCs affect their world in a manner that they desire.

If the PCs steam-roll over the world, then they get to decide what they do as free agents in the world, they should be able to decide if they can kill the gods or not if it's within their power, they should be able to decide where their next goals will take them. If they decide to drink cappucinos at Der Wafflehouse, that's fine, at that point the game ref can bring in some new problems to give the PCs something to do, but if the PCs can seriously just do something, they should be allowed to do it, whether the game ref thought about it, or not. Anything else is stifling and boring, and any game ref that can't deal with the fact that PCs are being run by humans, and that they can't control player, or PC actions on the world should consider running a tabletop game, not a paper and pencil one.

The RoW stuff was meant to bring PCs that are "at least this tall" to the game, not PCs that are "only this tall" to the game. Five people could make a fighter; and each character will possibly be very different from the others. Some will be able to smack around an at level challenge, others will take a few rounds. What matters is not how well they do the task, but that they can do the task at all. Something that you can't seem to wrap your head around, or accept, for whatever reasons you may have.



On getting "at will" SLAs

Seriously, how often will you see an adventure where "at will" really matters?

No rest periods, ever? Seriously? Can you name adventures where that happens?

I really haven't seen a game like that in a long time. Heck, I haven't seen a game like that ever.

Have you really seen someone use all of their "limited" use SLAs on a character, and then have to rely on 'gimped' abilities?

Most of the time, it doesn't happen, and "at will" is merely something that will secretly comfort you with the knowledge that no matter what, you will always have a shotgun/fireball/magic jar in your back pocket.

PCs don't need "at will" abilities, it's just a mind-trick that people delude themselves into thinking. The biggest, baddest, PC class in the game doesn't even rely on at-will anything. Just some spell slots, and magic items. The wizard class doesn't even wear decent armour, or wield decent weapons, and people are 'fine' with them just having a few spell slots per day that are 'level appropriate'.

Realistically though, having "at-will" anything is really a plot-device, it doesn't give you anything really spectacular over the course of an adventure. The SAME game tests use the Transmuter Wizard as their balance point; and it's not like they get at-will 'anything'.

Really, using a shotgun once, or three times is standard for most stories that aren't slaughter-fests.

If you have to use an ability all the time, then the game will seriously just give that ability. That's a basic part of game design you're not grasping. If the game 'needs' the players to have something 'at-will', then it will simply grant it to them.

Look at how most zombie-shooter arcade games run. Your 'at-will' gun handwaves shit like "where are my clips stored/carried", so long as you aim off-screen and 'shoot' to reload.

The game requires and assumes that the players will be using a handgun the whole way through, so they just 'give' the players that ability.

The "special" abilities that a player can get don't determine winning or losing; but instead determine total time taken to drop enemy targets (the extended time can lead to losing, but not directly).

Most of the Sphere spells don't really care about "spell level", so stuff like "actual effect" don't matter as much as your DCs do. Fireball and Cone of Cold both show up in spheres at much lower levels. The SoDs usually only care about DC.

Seriously, going for any specific sphere at-will ends up being more limiting than picking up 3 seperete spheres with 1/day at level and 1+X/day in lower level abilities. There are very few spheres where having the spells 'at-will' becomes out and out more incredible than picking up any three other spheres.

I could see maybe... Voracity, or Bubbles. Even then, if you really wanted Magic Jar at will, you dipped Conduit 1, grabbed basic voracity, have 9 wizard levels, and then took Stranger with the Burning Eyes for a 5th level spell at will.

---

This actually gives me an idea for creating a template for creating spontaneous caster PrCs. Require some X level spell, as a non-prepared ability, and give it 'at will' in the first level of the PrC.

In theory, giving up everything except spellcaster progression, and being able to cast a spell as a spontaneous manner, should allow a character that casts that specific spell 'at will', without too much of a hiccough.

---

I think that my issues with giving up 3/5 spheres in a Conduit for a few at-wills, is that it tends to pigeonhole the PC, and in the scope of the campaign, the PC will really not do much besides one or two things since leveling up is not going to happen quickly enough for the players to realize any real growth/change in their PCs.

For a higher level character, it might be alright, but it's still very limiting. Usually you'd have 1 set of at-wills; 1 expert, or 2 basic; and caster level 4 lower than your class level in Sorcerer. Plus whatever PrCs and feats you've picked up.

It can work, but myself, after building a few low and high level conduits, I've really stopped caring about getting a small list of at-wills. It's too much PC cost, for too narrow a gain.

Especially when you can instead get 5 lists that increase in power and breadth (as well as 5 sphere powers); while sorcerer spell casting can cover bases that your spheres don't.

[ubernoob]

JE, not a single thing in that entire post had anything refuting anything in my post at all. I want my two minutes back. Stop wasting my fucking time with fucking babble that doesn't say anything useful to anyone.

[Leress]

Uber, how would you tone down the Tome Fighter?

[ubernoob]

Uber, how would you tone down the Tome Fighter?

I'd write a class from scratch that isn't tied to RoW bonus feats for power. I'd also use more horizontal power and less vertical (see: spherelock, Frank's soldier, etc).

[God_of_Awesome]

I've been thinking about writing a Fighter class as part of my FF1 series, as much as their is one.

It would have included class abilities that allow it to counter abilities like blink, invisibility, flight, etc, as well as giving it a choice pick out of an arsenal of magic weapons and items. It would also transplant 4e abilities (Or at least the stated purpose of those abilities), such as the 'Fuck you and fight me' power.

[Judging__Eagle]

Give it mage hunter, blindfighting, and ranged abilities.

Just make it like the knight or samurai; and give it specific bonus feats.

I think that seperating the RoW feats into [Combat] and [Tactical] might have been a better idea.

Fighters don't get bonus [Combat] feats, they get bonus [Tactical] feats for some levels, and bonus [Combat] feats for others. Forcing them to pick up Giant Slayer, Ghost Hunter, etc..

Uber, can you remember your own posts? Also, who ever said anything about refuting anything? You always seem to assume and imagine things that aren't happening.

[ubernoob]

Uber, can you remember your own posts? Also, who ever said anything about refuting anything?

If you agree with me, then you don't need to waste everyone's time with a massive block of text.

[God_of_Awesome]

Yeah, JE, if Fighter can't play with the other children, something is wrong with Fighter.

[Kaelik]

So JE, you think it's perfectly fine and totally balanced if every single round of combat each day that a fighter involves himself in he loses access to one feat, and he only gets them back the next day?

Because that's what you are demanding of Conduits. And it's fucking stupid.

No, I've never seen a Conduit run out of limited use SLAs and have to resort to gimped abilities.

I've seen Warlocks run out and use Eldritch Blast.

I've specifically seen people choose not to play a Conduit even though it was what they really wanted as soon as they realized the game was under level 7 because their character would be ass.

I've seen Conduits run out of limited use SLAs and fall back on at wills.

But that's a dumb shit question. No, I haven't seen people who have to conserve run out. I have seen people who have to conserve run out of level 6 5 and 4 spells and be throwing around level 3 effects for a couple fights.

I've seen conduits with at wills who don't have to conserve cast more SLAs in day than a non at will could even have. I've been that conduit.

Bottom line, shut up. If you aren't willing to let your precious melee characters lose abilities through the adventuring day, don't demand that every spellcaster take it up the ass.

Combat feats stack. Period.

If the average combat feat adds +5(level) damage per round and allows you to reliably hit one more type of opponent (IE fliers/invisibles/ect. ) Then 19 combat feats allows you to hit 19 more types than before for +100 more damage per round.

If each Sphere grants... One more round of being as good as Fighter with 4 combat feats. Then 10 Spheres (no one can even get ten Spheres) grants... ten rounds of being not as good as a level 20 fighter.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Combat feats stack. Period.

After all, a character with Weapon Finesse gets to add her Dex to attack rolls instead of strength, and if she has Insightful Strike too, she can also add her Wis instead. And Phalanx Fighter lets you attack with a reach weapon at adjacent range, and if you throw on PBS too, you also get to add your BAB in damage to point blank ranged attacks. Murderous Intent lets you coup de grace as a standard action, and Subtle Cut also gives you the option of damage dexterity with a standard action. Sniper gives you criticals with ranged attacks, and if you also have Combat School you can daze with melee attacks. If you have Combat School and Weapon finesse, you can add your dexterity to attack and damage and use a strength-based debuff all on the same attack! If you have Danger Sense then you are never surprised, and if you throw in Blind Fighting you're never flat footed either. Hunter lets you make a shot on the run, while Blitz lets you add damage to melee attacks.

[Username17]

Buff spells stack. Conjuring spells stack. Attack spells don't particularly stack. I seriously don't know what the hell Kaelik is talking about.

Last I checked, SAME Game tests with Tome Fighters didn't do any better than Wizards or Druids did, so I don't even understand what anyone is complaining about.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

To be fair, ubernoob said it outclassed several high power builds aswell. Perhaps they could highlight any particular combinations of feats or powers that sent it to crazytown?