Tome Fighter - Problem Solver

[Red_Rob]

Are we all referring to the same feat here?

• Two Weapon Fighting:
  On attack: 2 attacks for d6+4 each (avg. damage: 15 * Accuracy).
  On Attack of Opportunity: 1 attack for d6+4 damage (avg. damage: 7.5 * Accuracy).
• Spiked Chain guy spending no feats:
  On attack: 1 attack for 2d4+6 damage (avg. damage: 11 * Accuracy).
  On Attack of Opportunity: 1 attack for d6+4 damage (avg. damage: 11 * Accuracy).

+1: While armed with two weapons, you gain an extra
Attack of Opportunity each round for each attack
you would be allowed for your BAB, these extra attacks
of opportunity must be made with your offhand.

Shouldn't a first level Fighter get a +1 BAB and therefore qualify for 2 attacks of opportunity?

And that's even before we get into the solemn fact that as written the feat doesn't even let you fight with two one-handed weapons without penalty - just with an off-hand light weapon without penalty. While I personally let people use two scimitars if that's what they want to do, you're well within your rights to hit them with a -2 penalty to all their attacks for doing that.

+0: You suffer no penalty for doing things with your
off-hand. When you make an attack or full-attack
action, you may make a number of attacks with
your off-hand weapon equal to the number of attacks
you are afforded with your primary weapon.

So doesn't it explicitly state you get no penalty for using an off hand weapon, without specifying it must be light?

I'm raising this because it really seemed to me that TWF was a no-brainer when reading through the feats list, however I haven't done any statistical analysis. If it really is balanced against THF that would be great, but I just can't see how doubling your attacks isn't better than a small amount of extra damage, particularly once you get your to-hit bonus off the RNG.

[Username17]

Shouldn't a first level Fighter get a +1 BAB and therefore qualify for 2 attacks of opportunity?

He gets an extra attack of opportunity per turn. And if someone provokes an extra attack of opportunity, he can take it.

I'm raising this because it really seemed to me that TWF was a no-brainer when reading through the feats list, however I haven't done any statistical analysis. If it really is balanced against THF that would be great, but I just can't see how doubling your attacks isn't better than a small amount of extra damage, particularly once you get your to-hit bonus off the RNG.

Doubling your basic attacks. Not your bonus attacks. And you have to be using two weapons at a time to do it.

It's not balanced against THF. It makes you do more damage. If you're a sneak attacker, it lets you do a lot more damage. But it's not the only viable combat style. There is a lot to recommend having a glaive or a sword and shield instead.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

Carthaz, 1) you do realize that a Samurai gets a bonus combat feat at the exact same levels as Tome Fighters up until level 8 right?

So all you are doing is saying "Samurai can sort of duplicate one style of fighter combat. But only ever that one, and not as effectively past level 10."

Also, let's look at your Samurai:
1: TWF
1: Fiendish Dalliance
2: Horde Breaker
3: Combat School
4: Whirlwind
6: Blindfighting
6: Large Size
9: Subtle Cut
9: Elusive Target
12: Huge Size

Versus a Fighter going that route:
1: Fiendish Dalliance
2: TWFing
2: Whirlwind
3: Combat School
4: Horde Breaker
6: Large Size
6: Lightning Reflexes
8: Elusive Target
10: Blindfighting
12: Huge Size
12: Subtle Cut

Fighter gets access to more combat feats that give him lightning reflexes sooner, and he gets the same number of attacks, is less attribute dependent, and he can actually change out some of those for something else.

First of all, you apparently didn't even look at the samurai outline I sketched, because you got the feats all wrong. Yeah, I realize that fighters get more feats. Combat feats! Combat feats!
Other classes get more class features.

So to recap...
The fighter:

Code: Select all

Tiefling Fighter 16
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: Point Blank Shot
3: Juggernaut
4: Whirlwind
6: Large Size, Lightning Reflexes
8: Insightful Strike
9: Iron Will
10: Hordebreaker
12: Huge Size, Great Fortitude
14: Elusive Target
15: Combat School
16: Blitz

Attributes: S 15->19->35->41->46, D 16->12->18->23, C 13->21->27->32, W 12->18->23, I 12, Ch 6.

Equipment: 2 scimitars, a fuckton of alchemical flasks, a magic bow, a strength booster, a dexterity booster, a constitution booster, a wisdom booster, a save booster, magic adamantine carapace, a Balance booster, boots of haste. Maybe you can come up with something better than this.

Base melee attack bonus: 16 +18 (Str) +6 (Wis enhancement) +2 (combat school) +1 (haste) -2 (size) = +41.
Melee damage: 2d6 +18 (Str) +6 (Wis enhancement) +2 (combat school) +16 (Blitz) = 2d6+42, crit 15-20 x3.
Melee riders: DC 36 daze.
Melee reach: 20'.
Full attack: +41/+41/+44/+39/+39/+41/+39/+39/+39 (doesn't take 10 because that means no crits).
Average damage, assuming all attacks hit: 9*(14*49 + 6*3*49)/20 = 706.

Bow ranged attack bonus: 16 +6 (Dex) +6 (enhancement) +3 (PBS) +1 (haste) -2 (size) = +30.
Bow damage: 3d6 +18 (Str) +6 (enhancement) +16 (PBS) = 3d6+40, crit 20 x3.
Bow full attack: +30/+30/+28/+28/+28.

Flask ranged attack bonus: 16 +6 (Dex) +3 (PBS) +1 (haste) -2 (size) = +24 (touch).
Flask damage: 2d6 +16 (PBS).
Flask full attack: +24/+24/+22/+22/+22/+24/+22/+22/+22.
Average damage, assuming all attacks hit: 9*25 = 225.

Fortitude save bonus: 10 +11 (Con) +3 (Great Fortitude) +6 (resistance) = +32.
Reflex save bonus: 19 (Balance) +6 (Dex) +20 (competence) = +45.
Willpower save bonus: 10 +6 (Wis) +3 (Iron Will) +6 (resistance) = +25.

Immunities/Resistances: compulsions, fatigue, exhausted, stun -> daze, no penalties from fear or pain, more importantly can supress all status efects.

This fighter is such a powerhouse that it's a little difficult to comprehend what she is capable of.

The Samurai:

Code: Select all

Tiefling Samurai 16
1: Two Weapon Fighting, Blitz
2: Horde Breaker
3: Combat School
4: Whirlwind Attack
6: Blindfighting, Lightning Reflexes
9: Subtle Cut, Large Size
12: Huge Size
15: Insightful Strike

Attributes: D 15->19->25->30->26->28, Ch 14->20->25->23, S 13->18->24->40, W 12->17->23, C 10->16->23->31, I 8->10->15.

Equipment: 2 heavy picks, magic longbow, mithral suit, strength booster, constitution booster, dexterity booster, wisdom booster, charisma booster, Balance booster, boots of speed.

Melee base attack bonus: 16 +15 (Str) +6 (Wis enhancement) +2 (Combat School) +1 (haste) -2 (size) = 38.
Melee base damage: 2d6 +15 (Str) +6 (Wis enhancement) +2 (Combat School) +16 (Blitz) = 2d6+39, crit 19-20 x7.
Full attack: 48/48/46/46/46/48/46/46/46 (takes 10).
 Average damage if all hit: 9*46*7 = 2898.
 Without kiai: 9*(18*46 + 2*7*46)/20 = 662.
 Riders: DC 33 daze.
 Riders on 5 out of 9: DC 24 staggered, [b]DC 24 death[/b].
That looks competitive with the fighter, even though it's with 15' reach rather than 20'.
Iaijutsu focus: +38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38 (that's 17 attacks).
 Average damage if all hit: 17*(18*46 + 2*7*46)/20 = 1251.
 Riders: DC 33 daze, DC 24 daze.
 Riders on 13 out of 17:  DC 24 staggered, [b]DC 24 death[/b].

Bow ranged attack bonus: 16 +10 (Dex) +6 (enhancement) +1 (haste) -2 (size) = 31.
Bow base damage: 3d6 +15 (Str) +6 (enhancement), crit x3.
Bow full attack: +31/+31/+29/+29/+29.
 Average damage if all hit: 5*31.5*3 = 472.5 (with kiai).
Iaijutsu focus: +31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31 (14 attacks).
 Average damage if all hit: 14*31.5 = 441.

[Kaelik]

Carthaz, there are so many things wrong with your build, I don't know where to start.

1) Since you aren't even really using the stat boosts from Teifling, you are better off going human with Fiendish Dalliance or whatever, to get non sucky effects.

2) Do you not see how the Tome Fighter gets Large Size and Lightning Reflexes at level 6, and the Samurai does not?

3) You cheated you cheater. You gave the Samurai two feats at level 1 to cheat.

4) You made the characters, and purposefully made the fighter shittily. Never mind that he's not even using his wisdom for anything at all and you gave him a wisdom booster, I don't want to deal with magic items right now.

Instead, let's just look at the feats, where you gave him two poor feats after before level 6, and a whole bunch of crappy feats after level 6.

It's a comparison of a Samurai specced for the combat style Uber outlined, and a fighter that doesn't take combat school or blitz until level 14.

You don't get to make one of the characters shitty. That's a strawman.

Compare him against an actual character focused on that IE:
1:TWFing
1: Fiendish Dalliance
2: Blitz
3: Combat School
4: Whirlwind
6: Large Size and Lightning Reflexes
8: Hordebreaker
9: Subtle Cut
10: Whatever
12: Whatever +Huge Size

Abilities: 1: 18/14/14/8/12/8

wielding two double gamas

If you aren't going to start the game at level 15 or 16, there is no reason to bother with wisdom as a fighter.

And as for class abilities... yeah... half the Samurai's class features up till level 10 are pre selected combat feats. The fighter actually gets better class features than a samurai right up until level 15.

Reach/foil/problem solver, these are actually better than what the samurai gets.

If there were a single monster in the MM that could survive more than a round against a fighter if it were stupid enough to get hit, then it might matter that the samurai can do more burst DPS.

But when a monster of your level +2 has 50-75HP, and you do 100 a round, compared to the Samurai who does 200 damage, it doesn't matter, because you already killed it, and killing it more isn't going to do anything.

[CatharzGodfoot]

You still haven't shown that the samurai is in any way weaker. Just that the fact that it does more damage 'doesn't matter' because 'it's overkill'. Which neglects that the samurai can divide that damage up however she likes, and also ignores that most of the attacks carry a death effect.

I chose to place them at level 16 because that's when the fighter should be strongest (having just gotten all the BAB 16 abilities from her bajillion combat feats), and because that's uber's build. The order the feats are taken in doesn't fucking matter to a pair of 16th level characters. You're right that I fucked up and have the samurai two feats at level 1. My bad. However, that doesn't alter the overall results, because I didn't include PBS in the calculations.

The strongest argument you've put forward is that the samurai and fighter are on approximately equal footing for levels 1 through 8. The fighter probably pulls ahead at level 10, and then at 11 the samurai gets iaijutsu focus.


I hope that once we've put this to rest, maybe we can have a reasoned discussion as to why assuming that all melee characters are outsiders is stupid and should have no direct bearing on the balancing of the melee classes.

[Kaelik]

1) Yes, you shittily made fighter is only barely stronger than the Samurai in every single category. That has no bearing on anything.

2) No he can't split it up, he can do it in large chunks to very few targets. If you are actually face a meaningfully challenging horde or array of fights, that actually fucks over the Samurai who's extra abilities per day are limited in number before he becomes a shitty copy of a Tome Fighter, with fewer combat feats.

3) Level 16 is a fucking stupid level, because characters built for level 16 by definition are characters who start there and so do take shitty feats for level 1-15, and build their stats to add +15 wisdom bonuses to attacks.

I'm more interested in how a Samurai is weaker than a Tome Fighter at every level leading up to 15, and is only almost as good at the one predefined strategy, while a Tome Fighter can be different types of better fighters, or, as I presented, all of them.

4) Martial characters are always outsiders because outsiders get to break the RNG harder for Combat School, and AB/Damage in general.

If you are making a reached whirlwind combat school daze army, you make it an outsider. If you are making a Monk/Fighter Archer or a Monk/Samurai Archer, you don't have to be an outsider, but since no one has bothered to present those characters yet, mostly because they are merely mediocre at levels 1-10, it hasn't come up.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Alright, so here is a samurai, levels 1 through 12. The only magic item is a dexterity booster at level 11, so the numbers are probably a bit low. If I can gather the energy I'll update it.

Tiefling Samurai 1
Attributes (32 PBJ): D 18, S 16, C 14, I 10, W 14, Ch 6.
Feat: Combat School.
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 1 +3 (Str) +2 (Combat School) +1 (magic) = 7.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d4 +4 (Str) +2 (CS) +1 (magic) = 2d4+7.
Fortitude: +2. Reflex: +4. Will: +4.
AC (breast plate): 10 +5 (armor) +4 (Dex) = 19.
...
Tiefling Samurai 2
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 2 +3 (Str) +2 (CS) +1 (magic) = 8.
Fortitude: +2. Reflex: +4. Will: +5.
...
Tiefling Samurai 3
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes.
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 3 +3 (Str) +2 (CS) +1 (magic) = 9.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d4 +4 (Str) +2 (CS) +1 (magic) = 2d4+7 (kiai 8d4+28).
Fortitude: +3. Reflex: +8. Will: +5.
...
Tiefling Samurai 4
Attributes (32 PBJ): D 19, S 16, C 14, I 10, W 14, Ch 6.
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 4 +3 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) = 11.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d4 +4 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) = 2d4+8 (kiai 8d4+32).
Fortitude: +3. Reflex: +8. Will: +6.
...
Tiefling Samurai 5
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 5 +3 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) = 12.
...
Tiefling Samurai 6
Attributes (32 PBJ): D 17, S 24, C 18, I 10, W 14, Ch 6.
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 6 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) -1 (size) = 16.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d6 +10 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) = 2d6+14.
Full attack: +16/+11 ancestral scythe 2d6+14 (kiai 8d6+56) + DC 20 daze.
Fortitude: +6. Reflex: +15. Will: +7.
AC (breast plate): 10 +5 (armor) +3 (Dex) = 18.
...
Tiefling Samurai 7
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 7 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +3 (magic) -1 (size) = 18.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d6 +10 (Str) +2 (CS) +3 (magic) = 2d6+15.
Full attack: +17/+17/+12 ancestral scythe 2d6+15 (kiai 8d6+60) + DC 20 daze.
Fortitude: +6. Reflex: +16. Will: +7.
...
Tiefling Samurai 8
Attributes (32 PBJ): D 18, S 24, C 18, I 10, W 14, Ch 6.
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 8 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +3 (magic) -1 (size) = 19.
Full attack: +19/+19/+14 ancestral scythe 2d6+15 (kiai 8d6+60) + DC 21 daze.
Fortitude: +6. Reflex: +18. Will: +8.
AC (breast plate): 10 +5 (armor) +4 (Dex) = 19.
...
Tiefling Samurai 9
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B), Subtle Cut (B),

Insightful Strike.
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 9 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +3 (magic) -1 (size) = 20.
Full attack: +20/+20/+15 ancestral scythe 2d6+15 (kiai 8d6+60) + DC 21 daze.
Fortitude: +7. Reflex: +19. Will: +8.
...
Tiefling Samurai 10
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B), Subtle Cut (B),

Insightful Strike.
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 10 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +4 (magic) -1 (size) = 22.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d6 +10 (Str) +2 (CS) +1 (SC) +4 (magic) = 2d6+17.
Full attack: +22/+22/+17 ancestral scythe 2d6+15 (kiai 8d6+68) + DC 22 daze.
Fortitude: +7. Reflex: +20. Will: +9.
...
Tiefling Samurai 11
Attributes (32 PBJ): D 18 [22], S 24, C 18, I 10, W 14, Ch 6.
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B), Subtle Cut (B),

Insightful Strike.
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 11 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +4 (magic) -1 (size) = 23.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d6 +10 (Str) +2 (CS) +1 (SC) +4 (magic) = 2d6+17.
Full attack: +23/+18/+18 ancestral scythe 2d6+15 (kiai 14d6+119) + DC 22 daze.
Iaijutsu focus: +23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23 ancestral scythe 2d6+17 + DC 22 daze.
Fortitude: +7. Reflex: +23. Will: +9.
AC (breast plate): 10 +5 (armor) +6 (Dex) = 21.
...
Tiefling Samurai 12
Attributes (32 PBJ): D 17 [21], S 32, C 22, I 10, W 14, Ch 6.
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B), Subtle Cut (B),

Insightful Strike, Huge Size.
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 12 +11 (Str) +2 (CS) +4 (magic) -2 (size) = 27.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d8 +16 (Str) +2 (CS) +1 (SC) +4 (magic) = 2d8+23.
Full attack: +27/+22/+22 ancestral scythe 2d8+23 (kiai 14d8+161) + DC 27 daze.
Iaijutsu focus: +27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27 ancestral scythe 2d6+23 + DC 22 daze.
Fortitude: +10. Reflex: +23. Will: +10.
AC (breast plate): 10 +5 (armor) +5 (Dex) = 20.

If you want to have superior ranged capabilities, sub out Insightful Strike for PBS. If you want to do even better, drop Lightning Reflexes as well and pick up Sniper.


I still think that the outsider warrior is fucking stupid.

[Edit] And I really don't see why you think a samurai can't spread damage around. [/Edit]

[Kaelik]

1) You gave up TWFing, so now you provoke literally half as many saves versus daze. Some people will totally rock you.

2) You took Combat School at level 1, since you didn't have whirlwind attack, you can either not benefit from it for 5 levels, or you can not benefit from it when you are taking a full round action to move your speed and get only one saving throw against daze.

3) A fighter can be just like that, but with better saves in every area (except reflex, because who cares it breaks the RNG anyway) but with TWFing and Blitz instead instead of Blindfighting and Hordbreaker for doing more damage ( because Hordbreaker is not that good at low levels anyway) and then pick up those two if he wants.

And his class features will still be better than the samurai, and he'll have more combat feats on top of that.

4) The samurai can't spread damage around because you have to be able to hit multiple opponents to spread that damage around, and any time you are hitting multiple opponents, (if you have TWFing and Combat School) those opponents aren't going to be taking any actions the next round.

Being able to crit kill something you hit is not any better than being able to force two DC (Wizards DC +4-8) saves against not taking actions.

If you actually move around and hit things, because you happen to have more than one enemy in the fight anyway, what happens is:
a) They die without crits. You are just a crappier fighter.
b) The fighter takes away their actions, and you kill them at the expense of (let's say four of them) all your kias but one for the day in the first fight at level 6. Then you use that one in the next fight.

Then you are a fighter with preselected feats, fewer feats, and no class features.

I'm not saying the Samurai is bad. In many ways it is awesome. And most of those ways have to do with combat feats. Sure it has some okay class abilities later, and Commune is nice, and Ancesteral Weapon stuff sort of saves you a slot, even if it is inferior to a magic sword in AB/Damage.

But bottom line, showing that a Samurai can Whirlwind + Combat School almost as well as a fighter really doesn't cut it. You get one immediate action per round, so you can only use Iajitsu or IF once per round anyway, so yes, you get one more attack, which you give up by not being TWFing anyway.

You give up a save vs no action for each opponent within 50-80ft, you give up many combat feats, you give up being able to spontaneously choose a combat feat, you give up the damage edge per attack without blitz, also AB without lots of things, you give up everything strength gives by being so dex heavy for no reason and you get one more AoO a round for it.

Not terribly impressive.

[CatharzGodfoot]

WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS

Show me the numbers.

[Kaelik]

WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS

Show me the numbers.

Stop making illegal characters and pretending you'll only ever fight 4 total enemies a day in a series of one on one duels and I'll be able to honestly compare.

[CatharzGodfoot]

WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS

Show me the numbers.

Stop making illegal characters and pretending you'll only ever fight 4 total enemies a day in a series of one on one duels and I'll be able to honestly compare.

First, you're going to have to do better than wild accusations of "illegality". Secondly, being able to attack 8+ enemies at level 4, 18+ enemies at level 6, and 44+ enemies at level 12 is a far cry from the one-on-one duels you claim.

[Kaelik]

Human Fighter 6
Attributes (32 PBJ): S 29, D 12, C 18, I 8, W 12, Ch 8.
Feats: Fiendish Dalliance(B), Two Weapon Fighting, Blitz(B), Whirlwind, Lightning Reflexes(B), Combat School(B), Large Size

Full attack: +18/+18/+16/+16/+13 for 1d6+17 damage each and DC 22 save against Daze.
Whirlwind: +18/+18 on everyone he can reach with 50ft speed, 2d6+17 damage and DC 22 save against Daze.
Saves: +11/+19/+8
AC: 18
HP: 78
AoO: 4

Tiefling Samurai 6
Attributes (32 PBJ): D 17, S 24, C 18, I 10, W 14, Ch 6.
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 6 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) -1 (size) = 16.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d6 +10 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) = 2d6+14.
Full attack: +16/+11 ancestral scythe 2d6+14 (kiai 8d6+56) + DC 20 daze.
Fortitude: +6. Reflex: +15. Will: +7.
AC (breast plate): 10 +5 (armor) +3 (Dex) -1 (Size) = 17.
HP:72
AoO: 5

Stuff Fighter is better at: Saves, all types. AC. number of attacks. Damage on each attack. Attack bonus. Whirlwinding. DC on daze effect. number of forced saves. HP.

Stuff Fighter has that Samurai does not: Combat Focus. Problem Solver to get Blindfight if useful, or Ghost Hunter, or whatever. Active Assault to get more full attacks if needed and block charges on allies. One more maxxed skill from a better list. Reach.

Stuff Samurai is better at: number of AoO.

Stuff Samurai can do that Fighter cannot: HordeBreaker 5ft step and use AoOs if downs opponent within 10ft of other opponent. Blindsense out to 60' all the time. Ghost Touch all the time without having to use Problem Solver. Ignores DR. Commune 1/day. Kai 6 times per day.

So they fight 4 encounters a day with their party, selected from EL 6 encounters. Compare their performance. More damage, AB, better defenses, all fighter. More and better skills: Fighter. Reach, Fighter. Ability to Kai and do 8d6+56 damage six times a day while Fighter is only doing 4d6+34 on standard actions and 8d6+1d8+85 on full round attacks, Samurai.

If you face any competent force of multiple enemies, you just end using a bunch of Kais and being a shitty fighter in all future fights, or you don't use Kais and you are a shitty fighter that fight, and probably a shitty fighter in future fights. (Since any fight with only one opponent is one in which that opponent is unlikely to get more than one action, and that only if he wins Init.)

[Kaelik]

Show me the numbers.

Stop making illegal characters and pretending you'll only ever fight 4 total enemies a day in a series of one on one duels and I'll be able to honestly compare.

First, you're going to have to do better than wild accusations of "illegality". Secondly, being able to attack 8+ enemies at level 4, 18+ enemies at level 6, and 44+ enemies at level 12 is a far cry from the one-on-one duels you claim.

1) I explained exactly how it was illegal in the WORDS WORDS WORDS. So if you learn to read you can find out how.

2) Are you seriously claiming that you can attack the number of enemies that are squares you can hit with whirlwinding? Like they would ever be standing adjacent to each other in two lines with 5ft in the middle? Why don't you just claim that they are all diminutive and are squeezing in those squares to?

3) You can attack 44+ enemies like a shittier version of the fighter. But without Kai, you are literally just a fighter that is worse in every way. Since you can only Kai six times a day, if the first fight has 6 people, and you Kai them all on a Whirlwind, then you end up with being a shitty fighter for the next 3 fights. If you don't Kai them, you are a shitty fighter this fight, and even in fights where you use Kai, if the fighter makes two attacks and they fail either save against daze, then you aren't actually any better than the fighter anyway, since in neither case does the enemy get any future actions.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Alright, so let's do an actual breakdown.

Human Fighter 6
Attributes (32 PBJ): S 29, D 12, C 18, I 8, W 12, Ch 8.
Feats: Fiendish Dalliance(B), Two Weapon Fighting, Blitz(B), Whirlwind, Lightning Reflexes(B), Combat School(B), Large Size

Looks good. You could dump Wis and boost Dex more to match the samurai in AoOs, but then again the samurai could dump Wis an boost Str...

Full attack: +18/+18/+16/+16/+13 for 1d6+17 damage each and DC 22 save against Daze.

To be perfectly clear, the damage breakdown is 1d6 +9 (strength) +2 (magic) +2 (CS) +6 (Blitz) = 1d8+19, plus one bite for 1d8+10 (reach 5'). And you provoke five attacks of opportunity.

Whirlwind: +18/+18 on everyone he can reach with 50ft speed, 2d6+17 damage and DC 22 save against Daze.

I think you're forgetting the combat school or magic weapon bonus again, and the base damage should be 1d8, not 2d6.

Anyways, now we can compare average damage. I'm not super good at math, so let's let the fighter power attack for 2 to get her attack bonus somewhere near the samurai's.
On a full attack, if everything hits, the fighter is doing and average of 25.5 on a normal attack. The bite averages 14.5, so were looking at something like this:
4*21*25.5/20 + 21*14.5/20 = 107.1 + 15.255 = ~123.

The samurai does an average of 21 on a normal attack, so her output looks more like this:
2*23*21/20 = 48.3. However, even if she only uses one of her precious kiais, her output jumps back up to 108. That's less than the fighter, but it also doesn't provoke 5 AoOs. Recall that AoOs resolve before the attacks that provoke them--this fighter might be dead before she lands a hit.

Saves: +11/+19/+8

I'm probably missing something, by my reckoning it's Fortitude = +6+4 = +10, Reflex = +9 (Lightning Reflexes) +1 (Dex) +3 (whirlwind) = +13, and Will = +6+1 = +7.

AC: 18
HP: 78
AoO: 4

AC 18 = 10 + 1 (Dex) + 8 (full plate); you should also add in the shield bonus from TWF for AC 21.

Stuff Fighter is better at: Saves, all types. AC. number of attacks. Damage on each attack. Attack bonus. Whirlwinding. DC on daze effect. number of forced saves. HP.

More realistically, the fighter is better at Fortitude, AC, hit points, number of attacks, damage per attack after 6 attacks have been made, attack bonus, and daze DC.

Stuff Fighter has that Samurai does not: Combat Focus. Problem Solver to get Blindfight if useful, or Ghost Hunter, or whatever. Active Assault to get more full attacks if needed and block charges on allies. One more maxxed skill from a better list. Reach.

More realistically: combat focus, active assault, reach, skills. Remember that the samurai's ancestral weapon works better than Ghost Hunter, and she always has blind sense rather than just 6 rounds per hour.

Stuff Samurai is better at: number of AoO.

Also: not getting hit by 5 AoOs every round, burst damage (which synergizes with cleave very nicely), reflex saves, and resisting mind affecting effects.

So they fight 4 encounters a day with their party, selected from EL 6 encounters. Compare their performance. More damage, AB, better defenses, all fighter. More and better skills: Fighter. Reach, Fighter. Ability to Kai and do 8d6+56 damage six times a day while Fighter is only doing 4d6+34 on standard actions and 8d6+1d8+85 on full round attacks.

If you face any competent force of multiple enemies, you just end using a bunch of Kais and being a shitty fighter in all future fights, or you don't use Kais and you are a shitty fighter that fight, and probably a shitty fighter in future fights. (Since any fight with only one opponent is one in which that opponent is unlikely to get more than one action, and that only if he wins Init.)

Alright. They fight a Babau. Pretend both the fighter and samurai win initiative, and are 5' away from the bastard.

Fighter: Full attack, no bite. Damage on each successful hit is 1d8+9. On the first two attacks, the fighter hits 19/20. 2*13.5 = 27. On the other two, the fighter hits 18/20. 2*19*13.5/20 = 25.65. The fighter drops the babau from 66 to 13 HP.

Samurai: Full attack. Damage on each average hit is 21. On the first attack, the hit probability is 18/20. iff it hits, she kiais, which makes the math too difficult. So we'll pretend that she just kiais on the first attack no matter what. 18*21*4/20 = 75.6 on average, leaving 5 kiais for the rest of the day. The babau drops on the first attack.

OK, maybe that wasn't fair to the fighter. Let's say they encounter a kyton next.

Fighter: Full attack. This time she hits 18/20 on the first two: 2*19*18.5/20 = 35.15. On the second two: 2*17*18.5/20 = 31.45. Total: ~67. The devil is down.

Samurai: Full attack with kiai first (now she's down to 4) like before: 17*21*4/20 = 71. 'Dead' devil.

Maybe they should be facing more than one foe. 2 CR 4 enemies is an EL 6 encounter. A couple of araneas just fucking die. 8 CR 1 creatures is an EL 6 encounter. 8 small animated objects? They also just fucking die, even if they're iron.

Against level appropriate challenges, your fighter and my samurai tear shit up (to about the same degree), so long as the enemies start within the extremity of the fighter's reach and lose initiative. In different circumstances, you might notice that the samurai is better at long range, and that the fighter really starts hurting from all the AoOs she provokes.

[Edit]

1) I explained exactly how it was illegal in the WORDS WORDS WORDS. So if you learn to read you can find out how.

Alright, I must be blind and/or illiterate. Care to repeat yourself to account for my failings?

[Kaelik]

1) No, more realistically, the fighter has the saves I wrote down, and if your Samurai doesn't it's less. More realistically, enemies don't have 6 AoOs, and they don't get to make AoOs outside their reach. More realistically, fights don't start with both participants 5ft from each other, and to do that specifically when the fighter has a reach of 20ft is fucking bullshit.

More realistically, you are wrong about almost everything about the fighter, such as the part where you give his 10ft reach bite a 5ft reach, arbitrarily declare that numbers should all have large amounts subtracted from them because you don't want your samurai to feel small in the pants, and then try to start fights of literally adjacent to each other like some kind of idiot, and then try to claim the fighter can't even 5ft step.

And of course, again, you gave yourself two one on ones, and then picked a really weak CR 4 pair, and then skipped straight to CR 1s that die in one hit.

So let's try this again:

Fighter damage per attack: 1d8+6(Blitz)+9(Str)+2 magic+2 combat school+4 power attacking for two to have identical AB as the samurai.

On secondary attacks, will power attack for -5 +10 damage, to have same AB on secondary attacks. Bite doesn't even matter, let's just assume that for whatever reason I have to stay 15ft away to avoid provoking AoOs or just don't use the bite.

1d8+23/1d8+23/1d8+29/1d8+29:
2d6+14/2d6+14

If one of yours hits, then two of mine do.

Bearded Devil is not a CR 6, only CR 5, so give it a pair CR 3 and it becomes EL 6:

Round 1 Fighter: Whirlwind run by outside of it's 10ft reach with my 20ft reach, and go hit the hellhound too. No AoO. It basically gets hit twice for 2d8+46 damage and dies. If only I had Kai, right? And oh yeah, the hellhound die too.

Round 1 for Samurai: Runs by Whirlwinding, but since your reach is only 5ft, you have to provoke an AoO if you don't kill him, taking 50% chance of 1d10+3 damage and infernal wound. You can make your one attack roll and Kai him, because you can't kill him without Kai. Then you continue on to the hellhound, who you on average don't kill without Kaiing. But he probably fails his fort save.

Fighter doesn't need to risk any AoOs at all, and can kill both in one round, faster than you.

Kyton: Whirlwind run by with both characters results in death if he is hit by one/both attacks. Not like he'd make the save anyway. Easy win for both, fighter expends zero resources, Samurai expends second Kai.

Then, instead of a weak caster type without any good spells who uses Web (Hey, if you get webbed, you have to make DC 17 Str checks to get through at half speed, You know what my character does? Freedom of Movement. But I guess details like that might escape you when you are too busy starting people adjacent to each other.)

Let's say two blinking Barghests. Even with my powerattacking, we auto hit on a 2. So that's fine, but they are blinking. Hmm, seems like the sort of thing that effects a single hit Samurai more than a TWFing Fighter.

I stand a good chance of hitting each one once on my Whirlwind, and they aren't likely to make the save. You have a 50% chance of missing each one, and you can't kill them in a single hit without Kaiing. Would you Kai both of them if you hit, leaving you with only one for the day? Or hope they fail their saves when you do hit them?

Fighter: Probably never takes any damage.

Samurai: Wins sure, but does not win anywhere near as well, probably even takes damage.

Finally, why CR 1, because you want the RNG broke so your inadequacies don't have to become obvious? Try 3 Medium Earth Elementals.

You can't kill them in one round, on a Whirlwind without Kaiing, and they could actually make their save. Course, truth is they'd be Earth Gliding us, so the real deal is not full attacks but single standard actions. Since I probably kill in a single hit, and get two attacks each time one pops out, not to mention having better AC and more HP, this one easily goes to the fighter over the Samurai, who can Kai the first one, but then has to wait around to hit the others twice, taking attacks in the meanwhile.

Fighter can even Active Assault out of reach of some of the attacks.

Bottom line, Samurai takes longer and takes more damage to do the same thing, because he's missing out on better combat feats, and being a fighter.

But the real jokes on you, because the entire point of this argument is over whether Combat feats are better than Spheres, so if we SGT Fighters and Samurai who have the same number of combat feats and they both score 100%, but the Conduit at level 6 scores 50%-70%, that proves what exactly?

Combat feats are better than Spheres.

Who gets to declare themselves correct in that case?

Me.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1) No, more realistically, the fighter has the saves I wrote down, and if your Samurai doesn't it's less.

I'm dumb, break it down for me.

More realistically, enemies don't have 6 AoOs, and they don't get to make AoOs outside their reach. More realistically, fights don't start with both participants 5ft from each other, and to do that specifically when the fighter has a reach of 20ft is fucking bullshit.

Well, it doesn't matter to the fighter whether they're 5' away or 15' away. She has 15' reach and first strike, so they can't take any AoOs. I would have thought you'd notice little things like that in my write up above.

More realistically, you are wrong about almost everything about the fighter, such as the part where you give his 10ft reach bite a 5ft reach,

Alright, throw in your piddy bite. You might actually be able to match the real round-by-round damage of a samurai.

arbitrarily declare that numbers should all have large amounts subtracted from them because you don't want your samurai to feel small in the pants,

It's called DR. It messes with TWFers, and it messes with people who can't arbitrarily defeat all DR, and it occurs a lot at mid and higher levels.

and then try to start fights of literally adjacent to each other like some kind of idiot, and then try to claim the fighter can't even 5ft step.

Technically 5' away isn't adjacent. It's a full square away. If you want, the fighter can take that 5' step in and start taking AoOs. Start them at long distance and I guarantee that the fighter will feel even weaker.

And of course, again, you gave yourself two one on ones, and then picked a really weak CR 4 pair, and then skipped straight to CR 1s that die in one hit.

I picked them in alphabetical order from the monster manual.

So let's try this again:

Fighter damage per attack: 1d8+6(Blitz)+9(Str)+2 magic+2 combat school+4 power attacking for two to have identical AB as the samurai.

On secondary attacks, will power attack for -5 +10 damage, to have same AB on secondary attacks. Bite doesn't even matter, let's just assume that for whatever reason I have to stay 15ft away to avoid provoking AoOs or just don't use the bite.

That's a good assumption, because barbazeus (see below) attack with 10' reach.

1d8+23/1d8+23/1d8+29/1d8+29:
2d6+14/2d6+14

If one of yours hits, then two of mine do.

Bearded Devil is not a CR 6, only CR 5, so give it a pair CR 3 and it becomes EL 6:

Sure, if you're afraid to use the babau.

Round 1 Fighter: Whirlwind run by outside of it's 10ft reach with my 20ft reach, and go hit the hellhound too. No AoO. It basically gets hit twice for 2d8+46 damage and dies. If only I had Kai, right? And oh yeah, the hellhound die too.

Because of your power attacking, the fighter hits on a 3 or better. Average for 1d8+23 -5 (DR) = 22.5, so your attacks are averaging 2*19*22.5/20 = 42.5. Enough to kill both the hell hounds but not quite drop the bearded devil. The devil fails his fortitude save on a 15 or less, 75% of the time, so you're probably safe.

Round 1 for Samurai: Runs by Whirlwinding, but since your reach is only 5ft, you have to provoke an AoO if you don't kill him, taking 50% chance of 1d10+3 damage and infernal wound. You can make your one attack roll and Kai him, because you can't kill him without Kai. Then you continue on to the hellhound, who you on average don't kill without Kaiing. But he probably fails his fort save.

Let's not be disingenuous--the samurai has her cool 10' reach too. As I demonstrated above, with the same whirlwind tactics your fighter is using she can kiai and easily kill the devil, and then take out the hell hounds with normal hits.

Fighter doesn't need to risk any AoOs at all, and can kill both in one round, faster than you.

Moving on...

Kyton: Whirlwind run by with both characters results in death if he is hit by one/both attacks. Not like he'd make the save anyway. Easy win for both, fighter expends zero resources, Samurai expends second Kai.

Well, some classes have expendable resources and some don't. The samurai is still well ahead of the 4 encounter curve.

Then, instead of a weak caster type without any good spells who uses Web (Hey, if you get webbed, you have to make DC 17 Str checks to get through at half speed, You know what my character does? Freedom of Movement. But I guess details like that might escape you when you are too busy starting people adjacent to each other.)

Oh man, is this some Judging Eagle fighter, casting as a level 7 cleric? If so, all bets are off.

Let's say two blinking Barghests. Even with my powerattacking, we auto hit on a 2. So that's fine, but they are blinking. Hmm, seems like the sort of thing that effects a single hit Samurai more than a TWFing Fighter.

I stand a good chance of hitting each one once on my Whirlwind, and they aren't likely to make the save. You have a 50% chance of missing each one, and you can't kill them in a single hit without Kaiing. Would you Kai both of them if you hit, leaving you with only one for the day? Or hope they fail their saves when you do hit them?

Unlike the fighter, the samurai can just flat-out ignore the miss chance. Ghost touch is neat like that.

Fighter: Probably never takes any damage.

Samurai: Wins sure, but does not win anywhere near as well, probably even takes damage.

With the barghests' low fortitude saves, the samurai probably doesn't even have to bother with kiai on this one, although that would one-shot each of them. I hope you roll well for the miss chance.

Finally, why CR 1, because you want the RNG broke so your inadequacies don't have to become obvious? Try 3 Medium Earth Elementals.

You can't kill them in one round, on a Whirlwind without Kaiing, and they could actually make their save. Course, truth is they'd be Earth Gliding us, so the real deal is not full attacks but single standard actions. Since I probably kill in a single hit, and get two attacks each time one pops out, not to mention having better AC and more HP, this one easily goes to the fighter over the Samurai, who can Kai the first one, but then has to wait around to hit the others twice, taking attacks in the meanwhile.

Fighter can even Active Assault out of reach of some of the attacks.

Bottom line, Samurai takes longer and takes more damage to do the same thing, because he's missing out on better combat feats, and being a fighter.

Earth elementals move at 20'. This is where the samurai shows that she isn't a one trick pony even vs. the foes she is weakest against, and kites them with a longbow--just to make sure she takes no damage. After all, she still usually dazes them and will kills in two hits most of the time, and every one of them provokes an AoO when it goes to attack, and she has more than enough AoOs to deal with all three.

But the real jokes on you, because the entire point of this argument is over whether Combat feats are better than Spheres, so if we SGT Fighters and Samurai who have the same number of combat feats and they both score 100%, but the Conduit at level 6 scores 50%-70%, that proves what exactly?

Combat feats are better than Spheres.

Who gets to declare themselves correct in that case?

Me.

Nice job Kaelik. Changing the subject is always a classy thing to do when you're loosing a debate.

[Kaelik]

Start them at long distance and I guarantee that the fighter will feel even weaker.

By moving up and attacking without suffering any problems? How.

Sure, if you're afraid to use the babau.

I read it as bearded devil because I figured not even you would be stupid enough to start a Babau adjacent to people. But we should have a 5/3 pair anyway, so since the Kyton is such a bitch, let's replace him with the Babau.

Let's not be disingenuous--the samurai has her cool 10' reach too. As I demonstrated above, with the same whirlwind tactics your fighter is using she can kiai and easily kill the devil, and then take out the hell hounds with normal hits.

Except that if the Samurai misses, the Samurai has to be within the threatened area of the Bearded Devil to even attack, so at that point moving out provokes an AoO.

Oh man, is this some Judging Eagle fighter, casting as a level 7 cleric? If so, all bets are off.

Hey, remember how I kept telling you that Tiefling is a bitch race and you'd be better as a Human who takes Fiendish Dalliance?

It's because the fucking Demodand Subtype give Freedom of Movement and Poison Immunity.

Unlike the fighter, the samurai can just flat-out ignore the miss chance. Ghost touch is neat like that.

Yeah, I totally forgot to go add in Problem Solver to all those fights.

Earth elementals move at 20'. This is where the samurai shows that she isn't a one trick pony even vs. the foes she is weakest against, and kites them with a longbow--just to make sure she takes no damage. After all, she still usually dazes them and will kills in two hits most of the time, and every one of them provokes an AoO when it goes to attack, and she has more than enough AoOs to deal with all three.

You can't shoot them because they are inside the ground. You can't kite them because they are inside the ground. They don't provoke AoOs because they are inside the ground.

Nice job Kaelik. Changing the subject is always a classy thing to do when you're loosing a debate.

Fuck you retard, it's not my fault you can't read.

If a combat feat every other level is the best of all class features, that kind of blows the idea of combat feats as class features out of the water. That means that they're better than spheres.

Is that the case? Should combat feats be disallowed except as level-based bonus feats?

Yes Combat feats are better than Spheres.

So wouldn't it be idiotic if that idiot who was just asking if Combat feats are better than spheres turned around and tried to claim that combat feats aren't better than spheres because even though they are better than spheres they aren't better than combat feats?

And then accused me of changing the subject.

That would be really hilarious.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Start them at long distance and I guarantee that the fighter will feel even weaker.

By moving up and attacking without suffering any problems? How.

By the time the fighter is there the fight will be over.

Let's not be disingenuous--the samurai has her cool 10' reach too. As I demonstrated above, with the same whirlwind tactics your fighter is using she can kiai and easily kill the devil, and then take out the hell hounds with normal hits.

Except that if the Samurai misses, the Samurai has to be within the threatened area of the Bearded Devil to even attack, so at that point moving out provokes an AoO.

That's fair, unless it's a 5' step. The moral is, attack the devil last if you can't just whirlwind without moving.

Oh man, is this some Judging Eagle fighter, casting as a level 7 cleric? If so, all bets are off.

Hey, remember how I kept telling you that Tiefling is a bitch race and you'd be better as a Human who takes Fiendish Dalliance?

It's because the fucking Demodand Subtype give Freedom of Movement and Poison Immunity.

Oh, you think you get all of the demodand subtype powers from the PoID feat. What the Christ? That's even worse than the 'My name is HUGE' chain.
Regardless, it has no bearing on fighter vs. other warrior class balance.

Unlike the fighter, the samurai can just flat-out ignore the miss chance. Ghost touch is neat like that.

Yeah, I totally forgot to go add in Problem Solver to all those fights.

You know what else you forgot? Problem solver doesn't negate the miss chance.

Earth elementals move at 20'. This is where the samurai shows that she isn't a one trick pony even vs. the foes she is weakest against, and kites them with a longbow--just to make sure she takes no damage. After all, she still usually dazes them and will kills in two hits most of the time, and every one of them provokes an AoO when it goes to attack, and she has more than enough AoOs to deal with all three.

You can't shoot them because they are inside the ground. You can't kite them because they are inside the ground. They don't provoke AoOs because they are inside the ground.

Alright, that's a fair point. So you have 3 earth elementals attacking from total cover beneath you. How does the fighter deal with this?

Nice job Kaelik. Changing the subject is always a classy thing to do when you're loosing a debate.

Fuck you retard, it's not my fault you can't read.

If a combat feat every other level is the best of all class features, that kind of blows the idea of combat feats as class features out of the water. That means that they're better than spheres.

Is that the case? Should combat feats be disallowed except as level-based bonus feats?

Yes Combat feats are better than Spheres.

So wouldn't it be idiotic if that idiot who was just asking if Combat feats are better than spheres turned around and tried to claim that combat feats aren't better than spheres because even though they are better than spheres they aren't better than combat feats?

And then accused me of changing the subject.

That would be really hilarious.

Samurai don't get spheres, period. That's a completely different issue. Look, if you want you can rush to Uber's defense and then decide to argue about something else when you lose the debate. Seriously, I'm fine with that. But please, at least be honest about it.

[ubernoob]

Catharz, you lost the debate when you didn't refute my post on page 3. Seriously, you didn't find a way to toss 6 class based bonus feats onto barbarian or samurai. The debate is over. The fighter simply does *more* at every level period.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Catharz, you lost the debate when you didn't refute my post on page 3. Seriously, you didn't find a way to toss 6 class based bonus feats onto barbarian or samurai. The debate is over. The fighter simply does *more* at every level period.

If we define the question as "Which class has the most selectable feats?", the class with the most selectable feats obviously wins. If that was the question you addressed, I concede. However, if the question was 'Can other warriors compete with the fighter?', you've shown nothing.

[ubernoob]

Catharz, you lost the debate when you didn't refute my post on page 3. Seriously, you didn't find a way to toss 6 class based bonus feats onto barbarian or samurai. The debate is over. The fighter simply does *more* at every level period.

If we define the question as "Which class has the most selectable feats?", the class with the most selectable feats obviously wins. If that was the question you addressed, I concede. However, if the question was 'Can other warriors compete with the fighter?', you've shown nothing.

Barbarians get to save 2 feats, samurai get two bonus feats, and from there let's look at the other class features:
Barbarian: Bonus damage that only applies on half the attacks. Weeeee. Antimagic field, neat.
Samurai: Ignore DR, auto crit a few times per day
Fighter: Better Reach, Problem Solver, Foil

I think one of these is better in every way than the other two.

[God_of_Awesome]

Catharz, I thing she(?) has.

The point has been, several times throught many threads, that feats simply are more powerful then most class abilities. Having extra feats as a class ability is more powerful then most otherwise.

So yes, the class with the most feats is the most powerful.

To be fair, I am summarizing what I have heard. You can refute this as you please.

[Kaelik]

By the time the fighter is there the fight will be over.

Because...?

Oh, you think you get all of the demodand subtype powers from the PoID feat. What the Christ? That's even worse than the 'My name is HUGE' chain.
Regardless, it has no bearing on fighter vs. other warrior class balance.

Fucking retard:

1) That is what the feat grants. Read the fucking feat, ask Frank, read the thread where it is explicitly spelled out. Learn the fuckin rules.
2) It has a large effect on Warrior classes using Combat feats versus other classes balance, and since that's the actual topic of discussion, please go die and stop lying.

You know what else you forgot? Problem solver doesn't negate the miss chance.

It was merely a statement about what I forgot to use in each situation. The miss chance is already taken care of by attacking twice and being able to reroll one miss chance per round even if both did miss.

Alright, that's a fair point. So you have 3 earth elementals attacking from total cover beneath you. How does the fighter deal with this?

As I already pointed out when I first pointed out this fight, the Fighter merely readies an action, and thus kills with his two auto hit attacks any earth elemental that sticks it's hand up, and then uses immediate actions to 5ft step away from the second earth elemental's attack, and relies on better AC, better HP, and killing them faster, though, as has been pointed out, even a Samurai can break the RNG with his feats, so after he runs out of all class abilities, he can still take the 50% chance fight with 100% success rate because he's got combat feats.

Samurai don't get spheres, period. That's a completely different issue. Look, if you want you can rush to Uber's defense and then decide to argue about something else when you lose the debate. Seriously, I'm fine with that. But please, at least be honest about it.

You are a fucking idiot, and I want you to apologize.

I was not jumping to ubers defense, since I was in this thread before him. This thread has been about combat feats since practically the very beginning and for you to be such a lying asshole as to make catty comments about how combat feats don't stack, directly question my assertion that combat feats are the best class feature in the game, and then when I present a sample fighter in response to a request by Red Rob to demonstrate the superiority of combat feats, you start bitching about how the same number of combat feats can be just as good.

Fuck you Carthaz. I said Combat feats are the best class feature in the game. I said that Combat feats stack on the same action, and are not use limited, and Spheres are use limited up to a point and don't stack onto the same action and are worse that combat feats for that reason.

The fact that you went off on your bullshit "but combat feats are just as good as combat feats" diversion in the first place is dumb as shit, but for you to now accuse me of diverting the conversation after you ran like fucking hell from your earlier statements about combat feats not stacking into this bullshit is not fucking okay.

You can apologize, or you can shut the hell up, but fuck you read a goddam word I've said this whole fucking thread you asshole.

[CatharzGodfoot]

If we define the question as "Which class has the most selectable feats?", the class with the most selectable feats obviously wins. If that was the question you addressed, I concede. However, if the question was 'Can other warriors compete with the fighter?', you've shown nothing.

Barbarians get to save 2 feats, samurai get two bonus feats, and from there let's look at the other class features:
Barbarian: Bonus damage that only applies on half the attacks. Weeeee. Antimagic field, neat.
Samurai: Ignore DR, auto crit a few times per day
Fighter: Better Reach, Problem Solver, Foil

I think one of these is better in every way than the other two.

Yes, let's ignore all the best feature of the other classes, maybe they'll go away.

Since we're back to comparing 16th level characters
[*]A barbarian's saves are significantly better than a fighter's.
[*]Barbarians get more immunities than fighters.
[*]Barbarians deal more damage than fighters. Seriously.
[*]Barbarians get a high DC stunning rider as well as a dazing one.
[*]Barbarians get cohorts. Fighters can too, but you haven't yet shown me one that does.
[*]Barbarians are immune to almost all hostile magic.
[*]Barbarians have more hit points.
[*]Barbarians can get DR that actually matters.
On the negative,
[*]Barbarians make crappy ranged combatants. But they move really fast, so this rarely matters.


[*]Samurai can ignore all cover.
[*]Samurai can auto-crit 10 times a day.
[*]Samurai can reflect and destroy magic, completely boning casters.
[*]Samurai can make upwards of 14 attacks as an immediate action ("pish posh", you say, "I'm sure I can find a combat feat that does that.").
[*]Samurai get a medium DC death rider on every attack (Yeah, all 20 or so of them).
[*]Samurai get a medium DC staggering rider on every attack (Yeah, all 20 or so of them).
[*]Samurai get a medium DC daze rider to go with their RNG breaking daze rider, just for the hell of it.
[*]Samurai get great saves against mind-affecting effects.
[*]Samurai can boost their ACs to absurd degrees (full defense) while still being able to attack.

These are all important things that the fighter's combat feats will not allow them to get.

The fighter does get some pretty sweet powers (foil, reach, an extra immediate action, greater combat focus, at bunch of combat feats), but that's not the be-all and end-all. I'd rather have reflect magic than foil action, for example.

[CatharzGodfoot]

By the time the fighter is there the fight will be over.

Because...?

Because the samurai can kick ass with a bow, too.

Oh, you think you get all of the demodand subtype powers from the PoID feat. What the Christ? That's even worse than the 'My name is HUGE' chain.
Regardless, it has no bearing on fighter vs. other warrior class balance.

Fucking retard:

1) That is what the feat grants. Read the fucking feat, ask Frank, read the thread where it is explicitly spelled out. Learn the fuckin rules.
2) It has a large effect on Warrior classes using Combat feats versus other classes balance, and since that's the actual topic of discussion, please go die and stop lying.

Look, if you really care then make the samurai a human with bullshit subtype immunities. It changes nothing.

You know what else you forgot? Problem solver doesn't negate the miss chance.

It was merely a statement about what I forgot to use in each situation. The miss chance is already taken care of by attacking twice and being able to reroll one miss chance per round even if both did miss.

No, that doesn't 'take care of it'. It halves the miss chance, so you only automiss ~25% of the time.

Alright, that's a fair point. So you have 3 earth elementals attacking from total cover beneath you. How does the fighter deal with this?

As I already pointed out when I first pointed out this fight, the Fighter merely readies an action, and thus kills with his two auto hit attacks any earth elemental that sticks it's hand up, and then uses immediate actions to 5ft step away from the second earth elemental's attack, and relies on better AC, better HP, and killing them faster, though, as has been pointed out, even a Samurai can break the RNG with his feats, so after he runs out of all class abilities, he can still take the 50% chance fight with 100% success rate because he's got combat feats.

You ready an action to hit the elementals through solid rock? Good luck, man.

Samurai don't get spheres, period. That's a completely different issue. Look, if you want you can rush to Uber's defense and then decide to argue about something else when you lose the debate. Seriously, I'm fine with that. But please, at least be honest about it.

You are a fucking idiot, and I want you to apologize.

I was not jumping to ubers defense, since I was in this thread before him. This thread has been about combat feats since practically the very beginning and for you to be such a lying asshole as to make catty comments about how combat feats don't stack, directly question my assertion that combat feats are the best class feature in the game, and then when I present a sample fighter in response to a request by Red Rob to demonstrate the superiority of combat feats, you start bitching about how the same number of combat feats can be just as good.

Fuck you Carthaz. I said Combat feats are the best class feature in the game. I said that Combat feats stack on the same action, and are not use limited, and Spheres are use limited up to a point and don't stack onto the same action and are worse that combat feats for that reason.

The fact that you went off on your bullshit "but combat feats are just as good as combat feats" diversion in the first place is dumb as shit, but for you to now accuse me of diverting the conversation after you ran like fucking hell from your earlier statements about combat feats not stacking into this bullshit is not fucking okay.

You can apologize, or you can shut the hell up, but fuck you read a goddam word I've said this whole fucking thread you asshole.

Like I said, if you want to discuss combat feat vs. sphere balance that's fine. I don't have a strong opinion on the matter, which is why I put forward the question in the first place. If you didn't want to get into the fighter vs. samurai vs. barbarian discussion, you shouldn't have starting yelling about how 'fitars aer teh ubar'.