DDO

[Roy]

DCs for race restricted gear:

Jewelry: Level + 7.
Weapons: Level + 8... or was it 10?
Alignment: 20.

You have level + 3 ranks. That's a difference of 4, 5, or 7 to use at level.

You'd use Voice anyways, and the Shroud item anyways.

[ckafrica]

SO Spot, Balance, Jump, and UMD are universally good. What about the other skills? Obviously open lock and disable devices for a trap otter but are any of the other ones really useful?

Any feats or enhancements to avoid as a rule?

[ubernoob]

SO Spot, Balance, Jump, and UMD are universally good. What about the other skills? Obviously open lock and disable devices for a trap otter but are any of the other ones really useful?

Any feats or enhancements to avoid as a rule?

Search is pretty important iirc.

[Roy]

SO Spot, Balance, Jump, and UMD are universally good. What about the other skills? Obviously open lock and disable devices for a trap otter but are any of the other ones really useful?

Any feats or enhancements to avoid as a rule?

Well going down the list...

Balance: You don't actually need this maxed. A few ranks is good, especially with an item. Lets you get up faster from Knockdown. Very useful since Knockdown prevents all actions, not just puts them at a penalty.

Jump: Also doesn't need to be maxed. You technically only need a total modifier of 10, as a Jump spell adds 30 and 40 is the effective maximum. That means 0 for melee classes, about 5 for most others, and perhaps 10 for heavy armor users. However +30 Jump spells are not available at every level of the game and are not always available at all. +10 is the most you can easily assure yourself off cheap potions and clickies. There is a high level item that gives 3/rest charges of the +30 version which is easy to get but again, high level. I would recommend a few ranks and an item until you can be assured of a +30 Jump spell (level 9 Ranger/Sorcerer/Wizard).

Spot: You can find traps with this, but if you aren't a Rogue you can't do anything about them. Even so, useful so you don't walk into them. Also good for finding stealthed mobs, though I heard True Seeing does the same thing (which it shouldn't, they're hiding and not invisible). Worth investing in, especially since many of the DCs are actually quite low. If you've memorized the whole game, skip this skill.

UMD: Max for anyone that has it as a class skill. 11 ranks for anyone that doesn't (11.5 isn't any better, and wastes 1 skill rank). At the very least you'll get some RR gear, and with the right boosts you can hit higher benchmarks. The more of the right things you have (UMD as a class skill, Cha as a primary stat for your class) the less effort you'll need to hit the high benchmarks, though even something like an 8 Cha Monk manages decently with maxed out stuff.

11 ranks + 3 cha after item and tome + 4 greater heroism + 2 head of good fortune + 5 seven fingered gloves + 6 shroud item = +31. Good enough to Raise Dead 80% and Heal 60%, which isn't great but isn't bad either. Add skill boosts if human and you can do well for short bursts. Obviously without those items you'll have to stick to alignment and RR bypassing but still.

Anyways, other skills.

Bluff: Basically useless because it has an animation. Getting the conversation options doesn't require a very high skill modifier.

A few examples:

Delera's: Requires a total modifier of +3 to avoid paying 10,000 gold. Of course since you can get Eagle's Splendor, Heroism, skill boosts, and very common +3 items even a 6 cha dwarf or warforged needs 0 ranks for this.

Crucible: Requires 14/19/24 for normal/hard/elite. Not required but makes the quest easier. Only one person needs to do this, and chances are the Sorcerer or Bard can do it with an item and buffs.

= Basically useless for that too, since no ranks are required.

Concentration: A given for casters and for Monks. Useless for everyone else. Note that due to the way the interrupt formula works (namely 10 + spell level + damage taken) anything over about 50 damage a hit is guaranteed to disrupt even with a maximized skill. That would be most raid bosses, and all endgame trash mobs. Quicken for the win.

Diplomacy: This is actually useful sometimes if you don't want aggro. Trouble is, there's not much of a tanking mechanic so this skill is less useful, and some of the classes that would want it can't benefit from it. Example: Sorcerer and Wizard. Fire Wall will just grab aggro right back. For something like a Rogue though? Sure, why not? More Sneak Attack. Also opens up more dialogue options, seems to have broader applications than Bluff.

Disable Device: Obvious applications for a Rogue. No one else can even invest in it, so moot point.

Haggle: You get more gold for selling things. The difference seems small at low levels, but at higher levels it's the difference between pulling in 15k plat a quest and pulling in more like 60k. That assumes a dedicated haggle character. If you don't have one of those stick to an item, and anything that boosts skills, though if you have skill ranks you have nothing better to do with and no haggle bard why not?

Heal: Basically useless. So you regain more HP at a shrine. It's not as if HP are a very limited resource beyond the lowest levels (at which point Wisdom + item is fine) anyways.

Hide: Semi useful for soloing. Useless in a group (everyone just zergs full speed ahead) and scouting is useless in any case due to gate traps, etc. Exception: Assassin Rogues. They must be stealthed to Assassinate (which is actually pretty good) and with all the faster sneaking stuff you can keep up with the group while perma stealthed. It's also one way to assure your Rogue doesn't have aggro so you can Sneak Attack, though since you can also just let the front liners run one second ahead of you, or blind the mobs to get this effect it is a moot point.

Intimidate: About the only means of tanking aside from out DPSing your entire party. Intimitanks are rarely needed, but very useful when they are. Also, dialogue options.

Listen: It's basically Spot but worse. No. Just. No.

Move Silently: See Hide.

Open Lock: See Disable Device, with the caveats that lockpicking DCs are generally lower than trap DCs, and you cannot blow locks, therefore a few ranks + item etc will let you get any lock in the game.

Perform: Required for Bards to get songs. May be worth boosting with items if using Fascinate often, which is useless endgame. Useless to all other classes, who I don't think can take it anyways.

Repair: See Heal, except worse in that it restores fewer HP, and only works on one race instead of five.

Search: Obvious applications for Rogues. No one else needs to bother, since even if they can find the box they can't do anything with it. Secret doors you say? Bah, 1st level spell (available in clickie form to those that can't cast or UMD 20 it). Or True Seeing.

Swim: Useless. It makes you Swim faster. Well so does jumping in the water. There is exactly one quest in the game heavy on swimming. And you can get through that fine with a Swim item and a Merfolk's.

Tumble: All classes should have a positive modifier in this. That requires you to have 1 rank, and a total modifier of +1 or better. With that you can Tumble. This is useful because Tumbling is not affected by movement speed reduction (Hamstring, Binding Chains, Dungeon Alert...)

At a +36 modifier you get a new move, but it's not really worth it. And 'less falling damage' is called 'I have Feather Fall from Korthos, bitch'.

Now, let's see...

Enhancement wise, I don't remember em all. I know everything about Drow sucks starting with the enhancements. Humans get good enhancements in the form of healing amp and human versatility. Dwarves get good enhancements in the form of Armor Mastery and whatever that thing is that boost their saves.
Halflings get a nice boost to others from Heroic Companion and they also get some nice stuff for Rogues.
Warforged enhancements are decent (Healer's Friend, +Con, etc).
Elves... meh.

Class wise... Haven't played every class.

For the arcane casters, you definitely want to focus on fire and cold. Many of the good lightning and acid spells are either inferior to comparable fire/cold spells, bugged, or both. It still can be worth some investment, just don't make it your primary focus. Force/repair is not so good. It's better now, and it's fairly consistent, but unless you're a warforged caster it's hard to justify the cost.

If your class can get Haste Boost get it. Full fucking stop.

Rangers should definitely get favored enemy damage (all), favored enemy resistance (2 or 3) and favored enemy defense (all) if an AC build.

If you are a Bard and aren't keeping the damage part of your song maxed, go reroll in real life. No really, it's that good. You can skimp on attack and fear saves if you want (and you will, in the latter case) but keep the damage part maxed, regardless of bard spec. Note: Warchanters need 2 levels of the fear save enhancement, and are the best type of bard in general as melee DPS > spells (Spellsinger) and enchantment based crowd control gets cockblocked a lot at endgame (Virtouso).

Barbarian Power Attack stuff is good. But don't get it too early, hold off a bit. You'll need the attack bonus early on. Later, not so much.

For a Cleric, as long as you have Life Magic maxed no one will complain. Most of the other spell enhancements are not worth it I think, because they don't work on the spells you'd actually be using as an offensive caster. Don't quote me on this one, I'm not sure about it.

Favored Soul... fuck if I know. Same goes for any other classes I didn't mention.

For a Paladin, you definitely want Exalted Smite as high as possible. This is your DPS, and due to some odd mechanics you can get some big numbers off here, often critting things as hard as a Frenzied Berserker (except more often).

Feat wise... let's see...

Any Skill Focus that isn't Skill Focus: Haggle on a Haggle bard or SF: UMD on someone that has a lot of feats to burn.

Any 2/2 skill feat. If there's one for Haggle, see Haggle Bards.

Snake Blooded.

Precision.

The Weapon Focus line, unless qualifying for a PRC (Warchanter and Kensai, basically).

EWP: Anything not named Khopesh.

Probably a lot more, but for the most part it's the usual suspects you'd expect to suck a barrel of cocks anyways.

[hogarth]

Any feats or enhancements to avoid as a rule?

Note that you can't use two-weapon fighting with weapon + shield in DDO. So Improved Shield Bash is kind of a waste.

[Roy]

So I figured I'd revive this, because I am coming to the conclusion this is the sort of D&D game where you have fun in spite of the DM, and not because of them.

Many reasons prompt this, but most of them involve the same core concept. They want you playing the game their way, and if you don't well they'll just make you do it.

Here is a recent example.

The Tower of Despair is currently the highest level raid in the game. The raid boss there can Banish you, cheating you out of loot which of course is the only reason to raid. To be immune to this you must find 4 very rare items, create a set of boots from those items and put them on... and they also make you immune to multiple beneficial staple spells (Haste, Displacement).

Well Banishment only affects a decent sized area. Once people figured that out they'd go and have one person tank, maybe some other people help melee if they have the boots and everyone else fights at range or does something else.

Now this raid is already not run that often, even by powergamers because the loot is so poorly thought out and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of how people actually play. For example the Warchanter (melee bard) set helps Maximize Spell. Really guys, really?

It's also highly luck based, as even in a very skilled group it's possible to die in seconds in there if you lag at the wrong time. And you WILL lag, it is just a matter of when.

As soon as people figured out that +4 tomes (highest in the game) were very rare even on 20th end reward lists (which are supposed to have the highest chance of tomes) most gave up.

So what do they do? Make it more appealing? Nah. They put some vague comment in the release notes about greatly increasing the range of this ability. Why? Not everyone went and grinded for boots, so now they have to. And by the way, Blasphemy can also stun... have fun completing when your healer can't act. Granted you will only likely fail on a 1 but even so that is too great a risk for the effort involved.

So the whole community gets ticked off, and they eventually add a line to the release notes about greatly increasing the drop rate... but the damage is already done.

And then very soon after they add some new stuff to the game... which requires useless items that everyone just tossed away.

Before that there's the whole Dungeon Alert bullshit. Which is bugged in quite a few places and really hasn't done anything except tick people off. If their AI sucked that bad then they should have I dunno, made better AI?

This isn't a new thing either, it's gone on for quite some time (Black Abbot raid, anyone?) but is becoming much more common lately, along with introducing what can only be called Retard Mode to DDO... yes, because I totally want such intellectually deficient wastes of oxygen like the Paizils playing beside me.

I wish I were joking about that but I'm not. First there's the last two content releases which introduce high level stuff so easy people were going through it blind on their first try in about 5 minutes each. Of course the loot sucked too, but hey. Then they go and make some bullshit 'Casual mode' for people that can't handle quests on normal. Really guys, really? Normal already got a lot easier by Dungeon Scaling, do you need it even easier? Perhaps an instant level 20 button?

What the Fuckity Fuckstar.

I see quite enough people that didn't somehow get Naturally Selected before high levels as it is without encouraging them. And even at lower levels base con is not viable. Period, full stop. End discussion. So fuck you and your ranged rangers who never get hit... until they do and instantly cost everyone 10%. And you kind of hope they do despite this, that way they can stop kiting the mobs all over the fucking map and they can die in three seconds like they should.

Did I mention of all the PRCs they could have released next they had to pick the fucking Arcane Archer? It still doesn't make ranged viable (that would require a non gimped attack speed for more than 20 seconds out of 120) but it will trick a lot of people into thinking it does, which means more dumbass ranged rangers.

Grrr. NERDRAGE!

But really, why can't they make stuff people will actually use? Stuff for melee characters, stuff for sorcerers, stuff for divine casters and bards. Stuff like that.

It's quite sad that the best parts of the game are things that have been there for a while... not that this is bad, but the new things should be nice too.

Now I'm not quitting, but as I said I'm enjoying the 'campaign' in spite of the DM, and not because of him. The game is too narrow to do it any other way. How else do you explain things like Sorcerer > Wizard?

[hogarth]

I wish I were joking about that but I'm not. First there's the last two content releases which introduce high level stuff so easy people were going through it blind on their first try in about 5 minutes each. Of course the loot sucked too, but hey. Then they go and make some bullshit 'Casual mode' for people that can't handle quests on normal. Really guys, really? Normal already got a lot easier by Dungeon Scaling, do you need it even easier? Perhaps an instant level 20 button?

How does dungeon scaling work? Is it based on some kind of win/loss record, or what?

[Roy]

I wish I were joking about that but I'm not. First there's the last two content releases which introduce high level stuff so easy people were going through it blind on their first try in about 5 minutes each. Of course the loot sucked too, but hey. Then they go and make some bullshit 'Casual mode' for people that can't handle quests on normal. Really guys, really? Normal already got a lot easier by Dungeon Scaling, do you need it even easier? Perhaps an instant level 20 button?

How does dungeon scaling work? Is it based on some kind of win/loss record, or what?

The details are not exactly explained or disclosed. But here's the general idea:

If you go into a quest on Normal enemy HP and damage output is variable depending on the number of players in group (confirmed), the nature of those players (supposedly some classes affect scaling more than others, not confirmed) and perhaps even the quality of characters (that 6 con arcane archer isn't making the mobs much harder, he's just being annoying).

When they first released it it was bugged so that level 4 enemies did 70+ damage or some shit. They fixed that.

There still seem to be some instances where Dungeon Scaling makes Normal mode actually HARDER than higher difficulties. Maybe that's just really bad groups. Hard to tell with obtuse mechanics.

Dungeon Scaling also affects Hard mode, but not nearly as much.

It is not supposed to affect Elite at all. I heard one person claiming it does, but this is unconfirmed.

There also seems to be an annoying aspect to it where things are dialed back on the fly, like you would expect from an incompetent DM.

Example: Get Scorching Rayed a few times while not in a party, on normal in a low level quest. You should see 8s, 9s, stuff like that.

Drink a resist fire 10 pot. Should be immune right?

You'll start taking 1 damage over and over and over, every time they shoot you. They weren't doing 11 before.

You can also see this with physical damage and Stoneskin, but that's harder for low levels to test.

Point being Normal was already something you could take an average level appropriate group and complete, usually very easily. Dungeon Scaling allows you to solo about as well, and in many cases better without the hassle of finding a party. Casual is even easier than normal. How easy?

3 damage traps.

High level mobs intentionally made overpowered even by high level standards because you aren't supposed to fight them do... 27 damage. Which means they hit about as hard as your standard CR 5 Troll. Which you could defeat by yourself easily 12 levels ago.

Expect to see even more people with gimp HP totals, no heavy fort etc.

[hogarth]

There also seems to be an annoying aspect to it where things are dialed back on the fly, like you would expect from an incompetent DM.

Example: Get Scorching Rayed a few times while not in a party, on normal in a low level quest. You should see 8s, 9s, stuff like that.

Drink a resist fire 10 pot. Should be immune right?

You'll start taking 1 damage over and over and over, every time they shoot you. They weren't doing 11 before.

You can also see this with physical damage and Stoneskin, but that's harder for low levels to test.

Come to think of it, I think I might have noticed this kind of behaviour before (e.g. in the House Kundarak quest that's full of fire elementals), but it might just be a case of selective memory.

[Roy]

Well, Taming the Flames would be a bitch either way.

Since I'm on a roll here...

Another thing that is very common in DDO is what the veteran players like calling 'favor quests'. In essence these are quests that are not level appropriate for whatever reason, or are simply too annoying to do. Some of the quests called favor quests are actually quite profitable if you know how to do them. Example: If you know how to run the Pit it is one of the best xp/hour quests in the level range... but if you don't it takes three hours or more to run. And more to the point it is not a straight forward hack and slash quest, so most of the players hate it automatically. Most of them though just plain suck a barrel of cocks. So anyone that does them at all comes back with a far too high level character, so that the only benefit is favor. Here's a fun exercise for you. Go into 'The Swiped Signet' (level 3 quest) on elite (boosts level to 5). Watch as you get the fuck beat out of you in seconds, even if playing a super twinked character several levels higher. Take the same character and do the same thing to a higher level quest on elite, watch as you have a much easier, or at least no harder time. Why? Mother fucking spiders. Vermin scale disproportionally on elite. That includes scorpions, just so you know.

If you hang around the community for any real length of time you will hear complaints of lack of content. Well there's plenty of quests there. It's just that things that are not a valid option might as well not be an option at all, so the fail quests are completely ignored. And there's quite a lot of fail quests. There's a few in the harbor and the market. Most of house K is composed of fail quests for one reason or another. And just about anything in house J not named 'Delera's Tomb' also is. Everything in the Necropolis is the pinacle of Suck and Fail, and not even the fact that one of them gives the highest XP in the game, relatively and absolutely can save it from the terrible design decisions that plagued it from day 1.

Those stuck in F2P mode are largely confined to the fail quests. But that is another matter.

Regardless it is this that leads to quite a few problems. If they had just made more quests worthwhile you'd see people running more stuff than Korthos (for starter gear), Waterworks, STK, Delera's, Glywan's, Stormcleave, Cult of the Six, Gianthold, Vale in about that order. Which in turn would mean fewer complaints and more players.

Oh yeah, and another thing. The community itself. But first something else, since it directly leads into that.

DDO is based on D&D. Not very tightly, but enough so to pull in that crowd. There are advantages to this, but the biggest disadvantage is that you inherent the same schizophrenic community.

Ask x players what they think a D&D game of y level is like. You will get at least as many different answers as you asked people for. The higher the level you asked for, the less these different accounts will coincide with each other. The person might know what they want, but the people certainly do not, and that might explain many of the wtf decisions like 'Casual mode'.

But aside from developmental decisions it leads to a number of other conflicts. It's easiest to see in the PnP forums, where the retardation of many is directly evident and present in a context everyone here can already understand. But it manifests in quite a few contexts directly relating to DDO as well. And as a result of that the community is very segregated and is only becoming more so. While most experienced players do not mind teaching new players the noob dumbfucks drive them off. End result? A lot more people taking high level characters raiding when their HP barely breaks a hundred, no heavy fort, and other facepalm inducing bullshit.

And now with casual mode just around the corner, a little over a week away if the unsubstantiated reports are to be believed? This is only going to get worse.

I really do feel bad for anyone only getting into the game now, or who did so not too long ago and is only level 10 or something (I think most of the other DDO players on this board are in the latter category). The bad ones are going to ruin it for everyone. And what really fucking sucks about that is I know that any member of this board at the least has the mentality to be a uber power gamer, but without being able to meet those of like minds because they're cut off... Yeah.

[hogarth]

Another thing that is very common in DDO is what the veteran players like calling 'favor quests'. In essence these are quests that are not level appropriate for whatever reason, or are simply too annoying to do. Some of the quests called favor quests are actually quite profitable if you know how to do them. Example: If you know how to run the Pit it is one of the best xp/hour quests in the level range... but if you don't it takes three hours or more to run. And more to the point it is not a straight forward hack and slash quest, so most of the players hate it automatically. Most of them though just plain suck a barrel of cocks. So anyone that does them at all comes back with a far too high level character, so that the only benefit is favor. Here's a fun exercise for you. Go into 'The Swiped Signet' (level 3 quest) on elite (boosts level to 5). Watch as you get the fuck beat out of you in seconds, even if playing a super twinked character several levels higher. Take the same character and do the same thing to a higher level quest on elite, watch as you have a much easier, or at least no harder time. Why? Mother fucking spiders. Vermin scale disproportionally on elite. That includes scorpions, just so you know.

I've certainly noticed is that there's only the vaguest connection between the stated level of a dungeon, how many XP you get, and how hard it is (on Hard or Elite). Some are incredibly irritating and you only get a pittance for a reward. What's the point?

[CatharzGodfoot]

I just kind of lost interest. It's too much trouble getting a party together, and quests are either boring (because nobody wants you doing anything unless you've already done it a million times), or boring (because it's just some bullshit hack and slash where you have to run the same fucking dungeon 5 or 6 times).

[ubernoob]

Yeah, the biggest problem with DDO is that it's boring. I have more fun trolling republicans on facebook, honestly. At some point I might get back on and play that wizard I was playing for a bit, but that could be quite a while.

[Roy]

Another thing that is very common in DDO is what the veteran players like calling 'favor quests'. In essence these are quests that are not level appropriate for whatever reason, or are simply too annoying to do. Some of the quests called favor quests are actually quite profitable if you know how to do them. Example: If you know how to run the Pit it is one of the best xp/hour quests in the level range... but if you don't it takes three hours or more to run. And more to the point it is not a straight forward hack and slash quest, so most of the players hate it automatically. Most of them though just plain suck a barrel of cocks. So anyone that does them at all comes back with a far too high level character, so that the only benefit is favor. Here's a fun exercise for you. Go into 'The Swiped Signet' (level 3 quest) on elite (boosts level to 5). Watch as you get the fuck beat out of you in seconds, even if playing a super twinked character several levels higher. Take the same character and do the same thing to a higher level quest on elite, watch as you have a much easier, or at least no harder time. Why? Mother fucking spiders. Vermin scale disproportionally on elite. That includes scorpions, just so you know.

I've certainly noticed is that there's only the vaguest connection between the stated level of a dungeon, how many XP you get, and how hard it is (on Hard or Elite). Some are incredibly irritating and you only get a pittance for a reward. What's the point?

One of the bad examples of them being true to D&D. Just as a level 18 wizard is a higher level encounter than a squad of brutes that includes a level 18 member and is also higher level than level 20 brutes, and at least equal to a level 25ish mixed threat that lacks the options and defenses of the wizard despite what the numbers say, quests in DDO can't make up their mind either.

The quests that give the best XP in the game appear in the first half of the level range, when you need less XP to level and by the time you are higher level the penalties for being higher level reduce it greatly anyways.

Then there are some mobs that are disproportionally difficult on higher settings, or just disproportionally difficult period.

I forget the name but there's a level 11 quest in the desert you could seriously go in on normal, with a higher level party and be annihilated in under a minute. You could then take that same group and run level 13-15 quests, no problem. Or you could run said 13-15 quests with a lower level party, like 10 or so. Whatever.

That's why the desert is rarely played and Gianthold is regarded as the best adventure pack of all time. Not just because the difficulty ranges from easy to reasonable, though that is true but because the quest design, terrain, and plot are all interesting as well as being good for xp/hour. This is a common theme actually. The quests that are good in their own right are also often good for powergaming purposes. The reverse is not necessarily true. See: The Pit, which is a complete waste of time unless you know exactly what to do, then it's a good grind spot.

But basically what I'm saying is that they need to take a good long look at what makes the commonly run quests commonly run, then apply those elements elsewhere. Otherwise you get shit like the Inspired Quarter and Dreaming Dark (shit loot, not interesting or difficult at all, but worth about 1,400 XP a minute... good enough to go 19-20 in a mere 2 hours) or shit like the Reaver's Refuge which almost no one runs because the loot mechanic is too random and the quests are too much of a pain in the ass.

[CatharzGodfoot]

While we're bashing DDO, their idea of a "market price" is absurd. You can't actually buy anything for "market price" in a market. You can't sell anything to a vendor for "market price" (in fact, you're lucky to make a fifth of it). In the free market of the auction house, the prices of things don't even come close to resembling "market price".

Why even bother with such a pointless and unrepresentative quantity?

[Roy]

While we're bashing DDO, their idea of a "market price" is absurd. You can't actually buy anything for "market price" in a market. You can't sell anything to a vendor for "market price" (in fact, you're lucky to make a fifth of it). In the free market of the auction house, the prices of things don't even come close to resembling "market price".

Why even bother with such a pointless and unrepresentative quantity?

Sacred cows. Also it is at least what the sale prices and broker prices are based on (the game did not originally have an AH... they added one because players wanted a more convenient way to get a decent amount of cash for good stuff than direct trades).

[hogarth]

I just kind of lost interest. It's too much trouble getting a party together, and quests are either boring (because nobody wants you doing anything unless you've already done it a million times), or boring (because it's just some bullshit hack and slash where you have to run the same fucking dungeon 5 or 6 times).

I get some mild Diablo-style entertainment out of exploring each of the different dungeons once or twice. But it's frustrating that some of them seem specifically designed to irritate me (e.g. tough quests where the rewards are puny, or long, boring quests where the only challenge is having no place to rest).

[Roy]

Although to be fair here it's not quite accurate to say I'm bashing DDO. I'm bashing the designers, because with the choices they're making we'd be better off if they left well enough alone and I am bashing some parts of the community for propagating certain negative activities but the game as a whole does a decent job filling its niche as hack and slash, with enough numbers for the optimizers to play with. It's an MMORPG, so no one is surprised or offended it fails at roleplay forever.

They do need to make more worthwhile quests though and get off their bullshit you must play our way stance which is what is making the game so narrow and blatantly contradicting their marketing scheme things are looser than in other MMOs. Yeah class roles are, but when you're limited to a narrow subset of actions it actually comes out worse than if they went all dedicated tank/healer/dps.

And another thing. I think their whole free to play thing backfired hardcore. Yes, a lot of new people are playing. But for how long? F2Pers are largely confined to the fail quests, which does not motivate them to pay so they can get to the good stuff. The old system of a 10 day trial works much better for this, then you can get up to level 10-12 or so playing whatever you want, getting a fairer representation of the game instead of walking away thinking it is even more narrow than it actually is.

For fuck's sake, this game is practically MADE for you guys, and none of you like it. I consider that a strong mark against F2P that it is capable of even driving away its target audience. Chances are if I had joined after the whole F2P thing I'd have came to the same conclusion. Even though I did not the flaws are still very obvious and it is also very obvious that the fast pace is the only thing maintaining the appeal... which given that 'Play our way or we'll make you' means 'slow the fuck down'... yeah.

Nice job breaking it hero.

There's clearly some new players around, but not nearly as many are staying.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I get some mild Diablo-style entertainment out of exploring each of the different dungeons once or twice. But it's frustrating that some of them seem specifically designed to irritate me (e.g. tough quests where the rewards are puny, or long, boring quests where the only challenge is having no place to rest).

I enjoyed Diablo more, thanks to the randomization. But really, I don't think that should be a mark against DDO. 'Not quite as good as Diablo' would actually be quite an accomplishment for any hack-and-slash.

And, yeah, I've really enjoyed some of the quest chains. Soloing most of VoN my first time, for example, was a lot of fun. Orphne's dreamscape was neat, and I liked the 'how many fucking beholders are there?' experience towards the end of the jungle quest (in a sort of masochistic way).

And another thing. I think their whole free to play thing backfired hardcore.

I went P2P pretty quickly. It's not a huge investment, and given the fact that I probably won't be playing for a few months (if ever again), it's a lot cheaper than buying individual quests. I really have no idea how you're supposed to hit 1k favor on F2P.

[hogarth]

I get some mild Diablo-style entertainment out of exploring each of the different dungeons once or twice. But it's frustrating that some of them seem specifically designed to irritate me (e.g. tough quests where the rewards are puny, or long, boring quests where the only challenge is having no place to rest).

I enjoyed Diablo more, thanks to the randomization. But really, I don't think that should be a mark against DDO. 'Not quite as good as Diablo' would actually be quite an accomplishment for any hack-and-slash.

Yes, "Diablo-style" not "Diablo-quality".

[Roy]

I get some mild Diablo-style entertainment out of exploring each of the different dungeons once or twice. But it's frustrating that some of them seem specifically designed to irritate me (e.g. tough quests where the rewards are puny, or long, boring quests where the only challenge is having no place to rest).

I enjoyed Diablo more, thanks to the randomization. But really, I don't think that should be a mark against DDO. 'Not quite as good as Diablo' would actually be quite an accomplishment for any hack-and-slash.

And, yeah, I've really enjoyed some of the quest chains. Soloing most of VoN my first time, for example, was a lot of fun. Orphne's dreamscape was neat, and I liked the 'how many fucking beholders are there?' experience towards the end of the jungle quest (in a sort of masochistic way).

And another thing. I think their whole free to play thing backfired hardcore.

I went P2P pretty quickly. It's not a huge investment, and given the fact that I probably won't be playing for a few months (if ever again), it's a lot cheaper than buying individual quests. I really have no idea how you're supposed to hit 1k favor on F2P.

This is true. Someone did the math and it took around a year of subscribing before buying the packs one at a time broke even with a monthly sub, and that was before more stuff was added. Crappy stuff granted, but stuff nonetheless. Unless you're absolutely sure you'll play for more than a year subscribing is still cheaper as well as more convenient. Some people claim just buying packs is cheaper. That's only really true if you only play in 1-2 areas, which means say... never making more characters. It also means only playing for a few hours every sixty six hours.

I also think the one year is only for adventure packs. You still don't have warforged, monks, shared banks, more than four character slots...

[hogarth]

And now with casual mode just around the corner, a little over a week away if the unsubstantiated reports are to be believed? This is only going to get worse.

By the way, what's the difference between "Casual" and "Solo" (if they're both supposed to be easier than "Normal")?

[Roy]

And now with casual mode just around the corner, a little over a week away if the unsubstantiated reports are to be believed? This is only going to get worse.

By the way, what's the difference between "Casual" and "Solo" (if they're both supposed to be easier than "Normal")?

Casual is available for more quests, allows more than one person in, and breaks the game.

See, a common nickname for casual mode is ______ mode, where the blank is filled in by one of the few notoriously bad guilds on the server. This was originally because it was so insultingly easy that only the lowest quality players were thought to need it. But there's more truth to it than that.

Just as the dumbfuck guilds tend to ruin any group they're in, casual mode ruins the game and anyone that plays in it. How so? Let me count the ways:

Doing casual mode locks favor in at casual even if you've done on a higher difficulty. This can cause you to lose favor. Reported many times in beta, ignored.

Doing casual mode unlocks epic (not supposed to happen) even for quests that don't actually have an epic mode yet. Reported many times in beta, ignored.

Loot is broken in quite a few places even when NOT playing casual. Not reported but seems to be the same bug where casual is counted as between elite and epic instead of before normal. This even occurs in raids, where you can't even select casual. Very annoying to have raid loot drops nerfed for no reason.

[hogarth]

After Roy's ringing endorsement, I thought I'd try out a dungeon in Casual mode. I tried "The Church and the Cult" (I think it was called). All of the monsters had maybe 50-100 hit points and posed no challenge whatsoever. The final boss had thousands of hit points and fast healing of maybe 10-20 hit points per second; whenever I managed to knock off a hundred hit points, he'd just run away. After a while I just gave up.

So what's the point? If you're tough enough to kill the boss at the end, the other bad guys can't even provide a minor annoyance. And if you're feeble enough to get a challenge from the minor bad guys, there's no possible way to beat the boss. That's some great design right there.

[Roy]

After Roy's ringing endorsement, I thought I'd try out a dungeon in Casual mode. I tried "The Church and the Cult" (I think it was called). All of the monsters had maybe 50-100 hit points and posed no challenge whatsoever. The final boss had thousands of hit points and fast healing of maybe 10-20 hit points per second; whenever I managed to knock off a hundred hit points, he'd just run away. After a while I just gave up.

So what's the point? If you're tough enough to kill the boss at the end, the other bad guys can't even provide a minor annoyance. And if you're feeble enough to get a challenge from the minor bad guys, there's no possible way to beat the boss. That's some great design right there.

Well in that particular quest that's a problem with the quest design (in addition to the problem with Casual mode). The end boss is much harder than the trash mobs, and used to be much harder still (like AC 50ish... and Firewall did not exist in game).

But that is yet another problem with it. It doesn't even always make quests easy like it's supposed to.

I'm going to start calling it Pathfinder mode, because I can't think of a single thing it does right that the original doesn't and most of the things the original does do right are changed to not be so anymore.