Tome Fighter - Problem Solver

[NineInchNall]

"Small list of melee weapons," actually.

EDIT: Dammit, ninjas abound!

[CatharzGodfoot]

I'm still a little worried about this interaction - the Fiend feats aren't the only thing that grants larger size, and strength boosters are pretty easy to come by.

Frank mentioned that organic characters tend to do even better than pre-gens due to the odd powerful item and synergy with team mates. This is what the Fighter is doing with only WBL gear and his own feats. Add in a weapon of Ruin, some buffs, potions and Wizard support and you could easily make back the reach and the +8 DC.

The weapon of ruin does nothing for save DCs. The best I can imagine you doing for strength with standard (ECL+0) characters is 18 + 4 (race) +4 (from spells) +level/4 +level/3. That's pretty high, but it's not much better than a caster can get for her primary attribute. Throw in all the DC boosting powers caster can get their hands on and you're on approximately even footing.

I'm also a little wary of TWF as written. Frank flat out admitted that it out damages THF weapons. Now, dealing damage to me is kind of the point of using a Greatsword, and the thought that a Barbarian with a Greatsword is doing less damage than one with two Drizzt style scimitars is awkward. It was suggested you might still consider using a Glaive or a shield if you're not after dealing damage, but this kind of "well in a very specific situation you might want to use something else" statement is always a sign that something is above the curve.

Do you not see these as a problem?

I do see it as a problem, which is why I tried writing a THFing combat feat.

[Jilocasin]

"Small list of melee weapons," actually.

EDIT: Dammit, ninjas abound!

Bwahahahaha!

[Username17]

I do not see it as a problem if someone invests a feat and a magic item slot into "doing more damage" and then they "do more damage." I'd be pretty insulted if they didn't do more damage actually.

Remember: even a guy who has a Greatsword and spent a feat on some as-yet unwritten THF feat still has less resources expended than the TWF guy. Because the Greatsworder has seven free magic item slots, and the Dr'zzt clone has six.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

The weapon of ruin does nothing for save DCs. The best I can imagine you doing for strength with standard (ECL+0) characters is 18 + 4 (race) +4 (from spells) +level/4 +level/3. That's pretty high, but it's not much better than a caster can get for her primary attribute. Throw in all the DC boosting powers caster can get their hands on and you're on approximately even footing.

There may be other ways to boost strength or size though. For example, the fixed form Polymorph in the Maginomicon has some forms that provide +8 to strength. This would mean I had to police any strength or size enhancements quite vigorously, but I suppose that shouldn't be too taxing.

The base DC (assuming your setup) you'd be looking at various levels would be:

lvl 1: 17-19 (assuming no items)
lvl 4: 22
lvl 8: 24
lvl 12: 28
lvl 16: 31

Hmmm, these do look reasonable. Are there any commonly available ways to increase size other than Fiend Feats?

I do not see it as a problem if someone invests a feat and a magic item slot into "doing more damage" and then they "do more damage." I'd be pretty insulted if they didn't do more damage actually.

Remember: even a guy who has a Greatsword and spent a feat on some as-yet unwritten THF feat still has less resources expended than the TWF guy. Because the Greatsworder has seven free magic item slots, and the Dr'zzt clone has six.

-Username17

The question here is whether what you are investing is proportional to what you are receiving. Given that BoG suggests no 2 items be allowed to provide the same bonus it seems likely most characters will run out of stats they absolutely need boosted before they run out of slots. Given the choice between having +1/3 levels to an already Good save or +50% damage it seems like too many characters will take the damage option.

As you said, if you have a flat damage bonus TWF is amazing. The problem is, everyone has access to Power Attack.

[Surgo]

There may be other ways to boost strength or size though. For example, the fixed form Polymorph in the Maginomicon has some forms that provide +8 to strength. This would mean I had to police any strength or size enhancements quite vigorously, but I suppose that shouldn't be too taxing.

Those forms also render any magic items you have on you nonfunctional.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Hmmm, these do look reasonable. Are there any commonly available ways to increase size other than Fiend Feats?

To be honest, I think that fiend feats are a special case because of how they interact with the Monster Manual. I doubt that Large Size was intended to give +3 to natural armor, +8 to strength and +4 to constitution.

I doubt even more that Product of Infernal Dalliance was intended to give poison immunity and constant freedom of movement or summon, immunity to electricity, resistance 10 to acid, cold, and electricity, and telepathy. Why the fuck would you give out resistance 5 to fire or cold when it also grants resistance 10 to both?

[Kaelik]

To be honest, I think that fiend feats are a special case because of how they interact with the Monster Manual. I doubt that Large Size was intended to give +3 to natural armor, +8 to strength and +4 to constitution.

I doubt even more that Product of Infernal Dalliance was intended to give poison immunity and constant freedom of movement or summon, immunity to electricity, resistance 10 to acid, cold, and electricity, and telepathy. Why the fuck would you give out resistance 5 to fire or cold when it also grants resistance 10 to both?

And yet Carthaz, in addition to you breaking the thread, that is exactly what they are intended to do. If you actually bothered, you could just read the parts of the Tome of Fiends and Tome PDF threads where Frank specifically states exactly that.

But I can see how you having to know what frank actually intends would get in the way of you trying to shove your own ideas down other peoples throat and pretend that they are Franks.

[CatharzGodfoot]

And yet Carthaz, in addition to you breaking the thread, that is exactly what they are intended to do. If you actually bothered, you could just read the parts of the Tome of Fiends and Tome PDF threads where Frank specifically states exactly that.

But I can see how you having to know what frank actually intends would get in the way of you trying to shove your own ideas down other peoples throat and pretend that they are Franks.

Well, I'm just giving Frank and K the benefit of doubt. You'd have to be an absolute drooling moron to give out a fiend's summon ability as a minor feature of a feat and then not even bother to explain how it works for PCs.

[Edit] And no, the treatment in the True Fiend class does not count. [/Edit]

[Kaelik]

You aren't giving anyone the benefit of the doubt by purposefully being retarded.

"Summon (Sp): Many demons share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of demon summoned are noted in each monster description). Demons are often reluctant to use this power until in obvious peril or extreme circumstances."

The feat doesn't give summon abilities. It obviously doesn't give summon abilities, and you could fucking learn that just like everything else you could learn by reading what Frank Trollman actually wrote when people asked that question.

Fuck you you lazy asshole I'll go find it and link it for you because your incredible retarded shitface waste of fucking time bullshit is getting in the way of a thread.

[CatharzGodfoot]

You aren't giving anyone the benefit of the doubt by purposefully being retarded.

"Summon (Sp): Many demons share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of demon summoned are noted in each monster description). Demons are often reluctant to use this power until in obvious peril or extreme circumstances."

The feat doesn't give summon abilities. It obviously doesn't give summon abilities, and you could fucking learn that just like everything else you could learn by reading what Frank Trollman actually wrote when people asked that question.

Fuck you you lazy asshole I'll go find it and link it for you because your incredible retarded shitface waste of fucking time bullshit is getting in the way of a thread.

I'm not going to argue with you again Kaelik, it isn't worth the trouble.

[Kaelik]

I'm not going to argue with you again Kaelik, it isn't worth the trouble.

Right, I know you are wrong and full of shit. Everyone else knows you are wrong and full of shit. We get it, you are wrong and full of shit.

So how about you don't fling your shit on the thread for no reason in the first place?

[Judging__Eagle]

Actually, while a [Baatezu] subtyped human has the Summon ability; they can't actually summon anything, since their race doesn't describe what they can or cannot summon.

They get the fire, poison immunity; bite or claws; small feat resistance, and larger subtype resistances.

Really, it's a bunch of flavour that you might never even use.

I mean... claw attacks? Seriously? Those are handy, but it's not like you can't ever get a weapon. The immunities and resistances are like owning a Cloak of Protection from Poison all the time, and a scaling ring of Elemental Resistance.

Really, the most noticeable, and biggest benefit is access to [Fiend] feats. Sneaky types can get Fiendish Invis; since even a Con score of 10 gives 7 rounds of free Improved Invis (after the 3 round prep time); and brute types grab Size boosts, or special attacks.

Basically, you pay Feats instead of Item slots or Spell slots to get special abilities. Like flying, or extra arms.

[endersdouble]

Remember: even a guy who has a Greatsword and spent a feat on some as-yet unwritten THF feat still has less resources expended than the TWF guy. Because the Greatsworder has seven free magic item slots, and the Dr'zzt clone has six.

-Username17

Doesn't this perhaps suggest you should be able to get magic items a la "The Twin Scimitars Deadly and Vicious"? i.e. two weapons, one bonus, one magic item slot.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Doesn't this perhaps suggest you should be able to get magic items a la "The Twin Scimitars Deadly and Vicious"? i.e. two weapons, one bonus, one magic item slot.

Or that items held in hand should be on a different system from slotted items? I mean, you can already just pull a sword out and use it; no need to 'attune' it.

Of course, your solution might be better than getting 'free' benefits from your defending dagger. However, I don't think it's a clear solution. People generally shouldn't have to seek out 'paired' weapons if they specialize in TWFing. There's a fine line between incentivizing sets and mandating them.

---

JE:
Freedom of movement at 1st level is not a 'flavor ability you might never get to use'. It's a fucking get out of jail free card for some of the most nasty shit in the game. The feat basically gives a character 2-3 high level magic items, the ability to take fiend feats, and a badass hairdo at first level. And sometimes it hands out an undefined ability which can be used to qualify for feats that don't do anything (like Dominions of the Infernal).

Tell me honestly how this looks as a write up for a new race:

Cambion
Type: Humanoid (demodand, augmented human)
Size: medium
Speed: 30'
Darkvision: 60', unless you happen to be a shator. You're not a shator, by the way.
Attacks: Cambions have a nasty bite which deals 1d6 base damage. It might seem difficult to bite someone as you cleave through their torso with a great sword, but somehow you can manage it.
Resistances: fire 5, so you'll occasionally be burned by campfires.
Immunities: Due to the treacherous nature of their relatives, cambions are immune to poisons of all kinds.
Freedom of movement (Su): Cambions benefit from freedom of movement at all times, and are therefore immune to any effects which immobilize, slow them, or impede their movement, and automatically succeed at checks to escape or resist a grapple,.
Fiend Blooded: Cambions count as fiends for the purpose of taking fiendish feats.
Skillful: Cambions get an extra skill point per level, just because.

[Red_Rob]

Tiefling Samurai 6
Attributes (32 PBJ): D 17, S 24, C 18, I 10, W 14, Ch 6.
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 6 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) -1 (size) = 16.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d6 +10 (Str) +2 (CS) +2 (magic) = 2d6+14.
Full attack: +16/+11 ancestral scythe 2d6+14 (kiai 8d6+56) + DC 20 daze.
Fortitude: +6. Reflex: +15. Will: +7.
AC (breast plate): 10 +5 (armor) +3 (Dex) = 18.
...
Tiefling Samurai 7
Feats: Combat School, Horde Breaker (B), Lightning Reflexes, Whirlwind (B), Large Size, Blindfighting (B).
Ancestral scythe attack bonus: 7 +7 (Str) +2 (CS) +3 (magic) -1 (size) = 18.
Ancestral scythe damage: 2d6 +10 (Str) +2 (CS) +3 (magic) = 2d6+15.
Full attack: +17/+17/+12 ancestral scythe 2d6+15 (kiai 8d6+60) + DC 20 daze.
Fortitude: +6. Reflex: +16. Will: +7.

Just checking through the builds you guys posted and I was wondering - how did this guy get an extra attack in his Full Attack at level 7? His BaB is still less than 11.

He gained Iaijutsu Focus, but that only works if you have the Edge and can be taken at any time. Was it just lumped in his Full Attack for convenience?

Those forms also render any magic items you have on you nonfunctional.

Ah, thanks, thats not something to worry about then.

Doesn't this perhaps suggest you should be able to get magic items a la "The Twin Scimitars Deadly and Vicious"? i.e. two weapons, one bonus, one magic item slot.

That could work. Basically, in DnD there are 3 main combat styles - 2WF, 2HF and sword and board. I would like it if each gave different but equally useful bonuses and therefore there was an actual choice between which to use. At the moment it seems too heavily weighted towards 2WF due to the massive attacks bonanza and how this doubles all your bonus damage. Sword and Board is obviously the best defensive style, so we need some schtick to differentiate 2WF from 2HF. Maybe if 2HF provided status effects on attacks? Stunned, Staggered, Prone and Flat Footed for a round all seem thematically appropriate to being bludgeoned with a large piece of metal.

Ultimately what is important is that all the options are useful and that none overpowers the others, otherwise everyone becomes a cookie-cutter clone copying the best setup. However, it doesn't matter whether you nerf the best option or power up the weaker versions to do this. If the extra TWF attacks don't overpower things then THF needs boosting to the same level. If they are too easy to abuse then they need to be toned down.

[Username17]

That could work. Basically, in DnD there are 3 main combat styles - 2WF, 2HF and sword and board. I would like it if each gave different but equally useful bonuses and therefore there was an actual choice between which to use. At the moment it seems too heavily weighted towards 2WF due to the massive attacks bonanza and how this doubles all your bonus damage. Sword and Board is obviously the best defensive style, so we need some schtick to differentiate 2WF from 2HF. Maybe if 2HF provided status effects on attacks?

This entire line of reasoning is stupid. Ad you should feel stupid.

THF is the least expensive of all the styles. It costs: one item. There is zero required character investiture, you just pick up a two handed weapon and go. Sword and Board requires 2 items and you need to have shield proficiency and it comes with an Armor Check Penalty. TWF requires 2 items and you need to spend one of your actual feats (I remind you: most PCs in the under 6 crowd have like 2 feats total). So right away, if THF was "balanced" with the other styles, it would be broken. Remember that in basic 3.5 rules, THF is the only style people take seriously, even though it is no better than the other two. It's just "as good" and "costs less" and is therefore better.

Secondly, THF is the only style you can cast spells out of without some sort of magic sword casting style. You need a free hand to cast, and you can swap between "holding" a two handed weapon (requiring one hand) and "using" a two handed weapon (requiring two hands) as a free action. Even if THF was more expensive than the other styles and had a worse output, it would still enjoy the approval of Sohei, gish, and eldritch knights the world over. Because they are prohibited by law from using the other two styles.

People like you and Andy Collins who cry like little babies every time someone who spent actual character resources on a damage inflicting combat style do more damage than they do with a big axe that is fucking free make me sick. You don't deserve to do more damage with a big axe and no forethought than other people do by acquiring two magic weapons and spending a profoundly limited resource on being able to use them at all. You really seriously don't.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

He gained Iaijutsu Focus, but that only works if you have the Edge and can be taken at any time. Was it just lumped in his Full Attack for convenience?

Yeah. Pure optimism, because it actually only applies to about 3/5 of CR 7 enemies. Mostly it's a holdover from when the character used Weapon Finesse rather than boosting strength with fiendish size increases, and actually could expect to have the edge on just about everyone.

On the other hand, I could claim that it's from boots of speed.

[Murtak]

THF is the least expensive of all the styles. It costs: one item. There is zero required character investiture, you just pick up a two handed weapon and go. Sword and Board requires 2 items and you need to have shield proficiency and it comes with an Armor Check Penalty. TWF requires 2 items and you need to spend one of your actual feats (I remind you: most PCs in the under 6 crowd have like 2 feats total). So right away, if THF was "balanced" with the other styles, it would be broken. Remember that in basic 3.5 rules, THF is the only style people take seriously, even though it is no better than the other two. It's just "as good" and "costs less" and is therefore better.

Still, as you level up your your static bonuses to attacks grow and the costs decrease. At first level, spending your only feat and investing in multiple swords just to end up with a net benefit of next to zero is obviously not very exciting. At 15th level, spending one of 6 feats and a wish (read: free) to essentially double your damage looks pretty good.

I am sure there is a point where the tradeoff is balanced, and since this is not the only scaling mechanic the difference is not actually as big as it might seem, but to me it still looks like tome TWF is broken - next to useless at low levels, too good at high levels.

[Username17]

At high levels, TWF is incredibly not free. The extra weapon is literally and specifically taking the place of a Cloak of Displacement that gives you Spell Resistance.

The rubric is almost identical at all levels. If you have a source of static damage bonuses such as sneak attack, you want TWF at all levels. If you don't, or your source of static damage bonuses is bullshit small like Power Attack, then you don't.

-Username17

[Murtak]

Oh, right, I forgot the tome item limit. Ok, that definitely helps to even things out. Still too high-powered for my tastes, I still don't like how extra dice heavily encourage you to go TWF, but balance-wise it looks decent enough to me.

[ubernoob]

At high levels, TWF is incredibly not free. The extra weapon is literally and specifically taking the place of a Cloak of Displacement that gives you Spell Resistance.

The rubric is almost identical at all levels. If you have a source of static damage bonuses such as sneak attack, you want TWF at all levels. If you don't, or your source of static damage bonuses is bullshit small like Power Attack, then you don't.

-Username17

Power attack+Blitz adds between +level and +3*level to each hit. This is on top of the fact that TWF already adds a small boost to damage from the get go.

I agree with you that TWF isn't too much of a return on resources though. A feat and extra magic item slot to deal more damage is a pretty ok return. Generally speaking Tome characters tend to go to rocket tag anyways, so TWF is more of an extra chance to keep the dice from going against you than an active boost in damage.

[Red_Rob]

THF is the least expensive of all the styles. It costs: one item. There is zero required character investiture, you just pick up a two handed weapon and go. Sword and Board requires 2 items and you need to have shield proficiency and it comes with an Armor Check Penalty. TWF requires 2 items and you need to spend one of your actual feats (I remind you: most PCs in the under 6 crowd have like 2 feats total). So right away, if THF was "balanced" with the other styles, it would be broken. Remember that in basic 3.5 rules, THF is the only style people take seriously, even though it is no better than the other two. It's just "as good" and "costs less" and is therefore better.

Frank, you're not being entirely honest here. Firstly, TWF doesn't require a feat. Anyone can just "pick up two weapons and go". However, there is a Feat available for people who want to specialise in it. Shield proficiency is something granted by class, so its not a resource you have to spend, it simply limits the classes that can use sword and board. And you expounded why a +1 bonus is too small to matter in RoW so a -1 ACP is not a serious drawback. Finally, the post above mine was suggesting allowing specially made "pairs of enchanted weapons" to count as a single item against the 8 item limit when wielded together, which i was agreeing could be a reasonable proposition. If these pairs were priced at an equivalent cost to a 2-handed weapon (perhaps with a drawback like they must both be wielded by the same creature to activate) all your points disappear. I assume then you would agree that all the fighting styles can now have similar advantages to TWF?

At the moment the only combat style where you can spend Feats to get a vertical power boost is TWF, therefore for anyone wanting to spend Feats to increase their melee potential (i.e. most warriors) it is the only option. I propose creating a feat for THF and Sword and Board that will make these options equally attractive.

Secondly, THF is the only style you can cast spells out of without some sort of magic sword casting style. You need a free hand to cast, and you can swap between "holding" a two handed weapon (requiring one hand) and "using" a two handed weapon (requiring two hands) as a free action. Even if THF was more expensive than the other styles and had a worse output, it would still enjoy the approval of Sohei, gish, and eldritch knights the world over. Because they are prohibited by law from using the other two styles.

The argument that some people are forced to choose your substandard option therefore it doesn't matter if its weak is not a good argument. Also, still spell is available if these classes want to choose other fighting styles.

People like you and Andy Collins who cry like little babies every time someone who spent actual character resources on a damage inflicting combat style do more damage than they do with a big axe that is fucking free make me sick. You don't deserve to do more damage with a big axe and no forethought than other people do by acquiring two magic weapons and spending a profoundly limited resource on being able to use them at all. You really seriously don't.

-Username17

You seem to have misunderstood my intentions. I don't want characters who spend no resources to beat those who do because "The Great Axe is bigger lol!!!11" I want the barbarian who chooses to invest his Feats and his money in a 2-handed weapon or a weapon and shield to be rewarded equally with someone who spends their Feats and a similar amount of money on 2 single weapons. Currently, if a character wants to spend Feats to maximise their combat potential, there is an option that benefits TWF users and nothing for other combat styles.

My suggestions for status effects were for the THF feat, not anyone picking up a Large stick of wood. Ideally I would like there to be situations where TWF is the better option, others where THF is better, and the same for Sword and Board and for these situations to appear in roughly equal measure. This creates tactical choices and allows those who pick up multiple Feats to better adapt to the situation.

Besides, its fucking counter-intuitive that a level 16 Barbarian with a Greataxe cannot get his damage as high as one with two rapiers no matter how he spends his Feats. People expect Large weapons to do a lot of damage and at the moment theres no way to make a Two Handed Specialist thats as effective as a Two Weapon Specialist.

[Username17]

Frank, you're not being entirely honest here. Firstly, TWF doesn't require a feat. Anyone can just "pick up two weapons and go".

Can you breathe with all that shit you're full of? Without the feat, the penalties are -6 to your main attack, -10 to the other, and you don't get iterative attacks. It's not something you can pick and go with, it's something where you fail at life and everyone makes fun of you. It's not even worth doing when your enemies are paralyzed.

Besides, its fucking counter-intuitive that a level 16 Barbarian with a Greataxe cannot get his damage as high as one with two rapiers no matter how he spends his Feats. People expect Large weapons to do a lot of damage and at the moment theres no way to make a Two Handed Specialist thats as effective as a Two Weapon Specialist.

Just fuck off. You're a whining little bitch and I don't respect you. Rogues get bonus damage when using 2 short swords and spending a feat. Fucking deal with it and stop embarrassing yourself.

TWF is the burst damage specialist. It costs more resources and doing more damage is what it is for. It may be counterintuitive for you that the small guy with a satchel full of acid flasks or a pair of tiny blades is the DPS guy and the huge guy in plate armor with a buster sword is actually a defense oriented juggle artist - and I don't give a fuck. That's D&D. And if you want to play a game where the guy in heavy armor with the big sword hits harder, is more resilient, and costs less resources to equip than the little guy with twin daggers and studded leather, then fuck you.

There really isn't any nice way to say this: your Andy Collins style "My Axe Dwarf should not lose in DPS to duelists!" whining is bullshit and embarrassing, and every time you press this point I lose more respect for you.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

TWF is the burst damage specialist. It costs more resources and doing more damage is what it is for. It may be counterintuitive for you that the small guy with a satchel full of acid flasks or a pair of tiny blades is the DPS guy and the huge guy in plate armor with a buster sword is actually a defense oriented juggle artist - and I don't give a fuck. That's D&D.

Remember that in basic 3.5 rules, THF is the only style people take seriously, even though it is no better than the other two. It's just "as good" and "costs less" and is therefore better.

So apparently in D&D TWF with smaller weapons does more damage but in D&D THF is the only style people take seriously. So which is it?

If you want to play a game where the guy in heavy armor with the big sword hits harder, is more resilient, and costs less resources to equip than the little guy with twin daggers and studded leather, then fuck you.

Wanting people with large weapons and suits of armor to hit harder and be tougher gets a fuck you? Well I guess I don't get all my preconceptions from D&D and have actually seen any other fantasy media ever, but hey, silly me for thinking that making the game intuitive mattered at all. Lets have Fire elementals be vulnerable to Fire and swords heal on hits too.

Frank, you were so dissatisfied with aspects of the D&D rules that seemed off to you you co-wrote a 300 page document modifying them, but now you come across like I shit on your mother because I wanted there to be more than one viable combat style? If you have an actual argument against people being able to get a feat that boosts Two Handed Weapon use beyond screaming "Thats not how D&D Works!!!!" I'd like to hear it.

And no, "if you invest in a feat to fight with two weapons it should be better because you invested a feat" is not an argument. Once two characters have both invested a feat in their combat style they have allocated the same amount of resources and therefore should get the same level of benefits otherwise you are screwing over a play style because you hate Two Handed Weapons.

Hell, I've seen some THF Tome feats in IMOI and I didn't see you leaping in there to scream about Andy Collins Dwarf obsession

Oh, and one final thing:

the huge guy in plate armor with a buster sword is actually a defense oriented juggle artist

My suggestion for a THF feat did not ever mention increased damage, I suggested some Save-or-Suck status effects like being knocked prone, being flat footed for a round or Stunning. This was partially because TWF already increased damage and I wanted each combat style to do something different, but it would have made THF a more juggle-based approach, just like you are advocating. Perhaps you could respond to what I wrote rather than assuming I am merely shouting about DPS?