Lago's Kickass D&D-Book Marketing Strategy!

[Lago PARANOIA]

A hardcore pessimist may argue this is the beginning of the end of 4E.

I think you mean optimist.

[RobbyPants]

So, are these the non-core versions of PHBX and DMGX?

[Mask_De_H]

As far as the numbers go, with 7 elements you can have (unless I'm mistaken, which is quite possible) 57 different sets of 3 elements, which is more than enough to cover the base classes.

You'd actually get 35 potential groups of 3, 21 groups of 2, and 7 groups of 1. Which would be enough for 63 classes I guess. 21 if you held people rigidly to 2 picks.

At the same time, those elements don't mesh well with the paths as written. If a druid gets 'it's cold outside', 'it's hot outside', and 'it's a jungle out there' from one path, you're really looking at three elements per path. Is that the original intent?

As far as role protection goes, damage (and by extension possibly healing) always stacks. So if you inflict acid damage, or purple damage, or whatever that matters (as far as enemy resistances go), but it doesn't actually matter for role protection at all. Role protection only gives a fuck about things which have limited slots: buffs and debuffs. And even then, it only cares about ones that are competing for the same slots.

So if you're a Magma Wizard and you drop gravitation on people which is a "brown" debuff, you don't actually mind if the Sacred Might Paladin uses magic stone that is a "brown" damaging attack. You also don't care if the Elemental Seal Gish puts up a stoneskin that is a "brown" buff on the party. Even if there's only one "modifier" slot, the fact that stoneskin targets party members and gravitation targets enemies means that the two will never overlap to fail to stack.

If you're a Fire Warlock and lay down fire beatings on people it really doesn't mean shit to you if the Warchanter Bard in the party also gives out buffs that are technically Fire. It's just not even important.

So basically:

[Element] Damage	Always Stacks
[Element] Buffs	Conflict with buffs of the same [Element]
[Element] Debuffs	Conflict with debuffs of the same [Element]

As such, you could have a lot of fucking classes and classes could do all kinds of crazy shit and have all kinds of elements available for various maneuvers and still have strongly and obviously defined roles based on those elements.

-Username17

So would powers look like this?

Sneaky Bastard:
Rogue 1
Dark Buff
If you move more than 2 squares this turn, you gain concealment. 1 Turn duration.

Groin Kick:
Monk 2
Fire Damage/Dark Debuff
3 damage/Accuracy +1/Range 1. If this attack isn't negated, target is dazed. Save duration (roll a 6 - end effect)

Field Medicine
Hero 4
Water Buff
Range 1-2. Target ally heals 2 wounds. Concentration duration.

And the Inspiring Hero works Fire/Light, the Avenging Hero works Lightning/Dark, and the Questing Hero works Wind/Water.

[ggroy]

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, 4E has been out for a year and a half now. Where are the damn videogames?

[ggroy]

[ggroy]

[ggroy]

[Username17]

The Rules Compendium is just an example of them falling behind schedule. When you're making a series and you need to put out material at a certain rate and you are falling behind, you can release a "clip show" or "best of album" or "flashback episode" to buy yourself time. Since most of it is just cut and paste work, it takes a lot less effort to finish a unit.

Now the most obvious thing that scheduling a best of album for the 28 month mark after initial release is that they are falling behind schedule. After all, absolutely everyone said that the initial release schedule of four products a month was unsustainable and over ambitious. So having to put out three products that are cut-and-paste jobs assembled by interns is not really surprising.

For the more conspiracy minded, such books may have actually been scheduled way in advance in order to buy the designers time for "other products." And of course, other products pretty much means a new edition or an edition revision. After all, 3.5 hit the deck 3 years after 3rd edition, so going 3 years before "4.5" or even "5" is not an unreasonable prediction. Martial Power 2 next month and PHB 3 the month after that... we're in some pretty slim pickings no matter how you look at it. Since we know that this schedule was drawn up well in advance, and the guys who did it are the brains behind 3.5 in the first place - a 36 month lead up time for 4.5 seems rational.

And putting out "phone it in" books like copypasta extravaganzas and art books seems like a decent enough way to free up designer time to put together a 4.5 revision.

-Username17

[Orca]

I think the 4e ruleset's problems with noncombat situations will make it worse with modern/scifi settings.

[souran]

Okay, 4E has been out for a year and a half now. Where are the damn videogames?

Several points here:

First the first real 3e videogame I played was neverwinter nights, and that was 2 full years after after the release of D&D and by the time it was on the shelves everybody already knew about the comming of dnd 3.5


The other issue is that it looks like their long term videogame partnres have basically dumped them because they just dont' NEED them. Look at who still really makes rpgs.


Black Isle -> defunt, became partially troika

Troika games is now defunt -> along with bioware became Obsidian

Obsidian Entertainment -> Develops games in collaberation with Bethesda, worked on Icewindale but now is working with the unreal engine and the Fallout/Elder Scrolls system for its games

Bethesda -> Owns several rpg franchises but uses its own video game only system. Has no work replationship with Wizards.

Bioware -> used d20 starwars to KOTOR which made them rich and made neverwinter nights. However, their MMO project (Star WARS the Old Republic) will NOT use d20 as a basis and will use a system much more like what they have mass effect and dragon age origins, which just happen to be the top selling rpgs in north america and europe right now. Basically, bioware no longer has any use for putting a wizards stamp on their stuff.

Blizzard -> so fucking rich they don't know what to do with the gold mine they unearthed. Not only that they have developed TWO rpg systems from scratch and have become the gold standard in what "fun rpg to play" means. Blizzard is more likely to be approached about creating a table top wow that DOESN'T use d20 than they are to approach wizards about using d20 to base a game on.


Right now is a shitty time to want to get your table top game moved to the computer world. MMO's are also just hammering the traditional rpg markets. I used to buy about 1 rpg computer or console game every 2-3 months, lets say 2 a quater. I had a friend who bought 1 console rpg a month like clockwork from the time he was 13 till he went to college.
Now, I only buy ones that look really good, often only one or two a YEAR. He buys a few more but just not that many. I just don't buy Japanese crap rpgs or average looking computer rpg titles. If I just want to play an rpg I turn on wow.

I realize wow is basically electronic heroquest but honestly most of the time electronic heroquest or an eternal game of descent is just fine.

I just don't see a computer company wanting to pay for a licence for a table top system any more, they are going to want a system they can reuse and call "theirs" so that you can shift between their titles till that system is old and useless.

Look at mass effect and Dragon age origins. Those games are CLEARLY basically the same "rpg system" with a few tweeks. I bet mass effect 2 will add further refinements and so on. This helps bioware because when they release something else they can say "it plays like these other games you have, only better! more new and different stuff!"

hell, bioware is planning on releaseing a table top verion of dragon age!

Anyway, I think we might begin to see a point where if you want a computer version of your rpg you do it yourself and a lot of computer rpg companies might decide that building a system that can be translated to paper easily and printed and sold is important to keeping their players comming back to their games.

[ggroy]

[Doom]

For some bizarre reason, I think 4e might well work with gamma world, a setting so bizarre and filled with 'one of a kind' mutants and tech that insane powers like "come and get it" might not be nearly as jarring.

[souran]

For some bizarre reason, I think 4e might well work with gamma world, a setting so bizarre and filled with 'one of a kind' mutants and tech that insane powers like "come and get it" might not be nearly as jarring.

Even if 4e is "done" I really don't think it will be the last we see of magic card type powers for players in D&D and other rpgs, the newer rpgs I have seen, regardless of genre, basically ALL do this except for that "mouse rangers" game.

[Roy]

Okay, 4E has been out for a year and a half now. Where are the damn videogames?

http://www.dnd4.com/release

Right there Lago. Go and get them.

[Doom]

Heh, cute.

Anyway, I think DnD4.0 might be a bit more viable as a turn-based computer game (yes, I know the market is probably crap for such a thing, but the keyword is 'probably'), instead of the 'real time' foolishness that is pure anathema to a tactical miniatures game.

DnD4.0 combat is a slogging mess at the higher levels, but 'the numbers just get bigger' isn't a problem for a computer. I rather wonder why some fool in his garage hasn't sat down and programmed something semi-viable by now.

[Orion]

One question that arises when talking about Role protection is: What if any kinds of "theme" parties do we want to cater to?

One thing I liked about the Combat Role/Power Source division from D&D 4 was the ability to have diverse and balanced parties with a clear theme. I liked that

Paladin, Cleric, Avenger, Invoker was supposed to be a viable party and so was Warden, Shaman, Barbarian, Druid.

Your "element" theme worried me at first, because while we *do* want to discourage the all-necromancer party, an all "grim and shadowy" party is something people might very well want to play. If Dark Warlocks *don't* play nice with Necromancer,s something is seriously wrong. I'm somewhat mollified by your example of how multiple characters of the same element can stack, however.

Another thing to consider is games where everyone shares the same background or social class. I know in practice it's hard to arrange these things (lord knows I've tried) so if it's not supported there's surely no loss, but it would be cool if you could run an all-nobility game where everyone was subclass:hero or a wushu game where everyone was subclass:monk.

These concerns especially come up when statting out NPC groups. If the players sack the fire temple, they should fight huge groups of fire-themed characters, and if their abilities are going to fail horribly to synergize, we need CR guidelines to reflect that.

[ggroy]

[CatharzGodfoot]

So having to put out three products that are cut-and-paste jobs assembled by interns is not really surprising.

The Rules Compendium was mostly outsourced.

[Parthenon]

Wait, what the fuck?

On the page Roy linked the December 2009 release that has been out for maybe a month and a half is The Plane Below. The retail price is $39.95 but it's selling for $16.47?

How are they supposed to be making money again? Thats 40% of the retail price!

Oh, wait, that website is old. Amazon is actually selling it at $19.77 instead of $29.95. Thats only 66% of the retail price. Wow, the extra 20% of the retail price is going to make so much difference.

[erik]

Heh, cute.

Anyway, I think DnD4.0 might be a bit more viable as a turn-based computer game (yes, I know the market is probably crap for such a thing, but the keyword is 'probably'), instead of the 'real time' foolishness that is pure anathema to a tactical miniatures game.

DnD4.0 combat is a slogging mess at the higher levels, but 'the numbers just get bigger' isn't a problem for a computer. I rather wonder why some fool in his garage hasn't sat down and programmed something semi-viable by now.

It really sounds like something that might make a pile of money as a mobile game (I'm thinking iphone/ipod app). You could even hook up with friends to play in a co-op dungeon crawl. People could upload mods and adventures. I propose that for marketing of 5e, a mobile computer game version is mandatory. That can rake some serious profits in addition to gathering new blood for the pen and paper game.

I was considering the possibility but I do not think that there is a major danger of the mobile game displacing the in-person game since they are still totally different niches.

[Judging__Eagle]

Actually.... I've recently been thinking about how to make 3.5; the open source stuff; using other, added stuff, and trying to turn that into an MMO world.

The PCs start on say....the Material plane; and stuff like the other planes, are added as expansions.

Make things really basic even, 'earth' is the material plane; so mapping is actually somewhat easier. You're using existing geography, so you don't care about stuff like mapping.

[Nicklance]

I propose giving Legend of the Five Rings back to Alderac. Alderac is still building up fluff with periodical short stories, and its one of the reasons why I love the game.

[Username17]

I propose giving Legend of the Five Rings back to Alderac. Alderac is still building up fluff with periodical short stories, and its one of the reasons why I love the game.

Alderac lost the ability to expect me to give a flying rat's ass about the fluff when they made a disgraced and denamed samurai into the secret ninja emperor of the entire empire. That was so retarded that I refuse to look in on what the fuck they are doing with the setting anymore.

If anything, the next edition's Oriental Adventures in Rokugan should ignore not only the Hidden Emperor saga, but also the Anvil of Despair and quite possibly even the Return of the Naga. Just do Rokugan: Year One or All Star L5R and let the PCs be the ones who solve the major problems of Fu Leng. And never ever do the Seven Thunders bullshit.

Oh, wait, that website is old. Amazon is actually selling it at $19.77 instead of $29.95. Thats only 66% of the retail price. Wow, the extra 20% of the retail price is going to make so much difference.

Amazon does not actually make money on books. Or on anything. Amazon to this day is operating on a net loss (despite making positive profits on a year to year basis, they are still in the red from their first 7 years of making negative money). Amazon isn't really a business, it's a huge literacy subsidy. While moving over 10 billion dollars worth of merchandise, their actual profits are barely enough to service the debt they racked up to get to the position they are in.

When you buy a set of RPG books on Amazon, and then you pop into the local gaming store to grab a dice set - the gaming store and the online distributor have made the same amount of actual money off of you.

Wonder if this has anything to do with the recent WotC layoffs of D&D game developers from a month ago or so.

Good chance. There was a big bunch of layoffs before making 3.5 and another big bunch of layoffs before making 4e.

-Username17

[Nicklance]

I propose giving Legend of the Five Rings back to Alderac. Alderac is still building up fluff with periodical short stories, and its one of the reasons why I love the game.

Alderac lost the ability to expect me to give a flying rat's ass about the fluff when they made a disgraced and denamed samurai into the secret ninja emperor of the entire empire. That was so retarded that I refuse to look in on what the fuck they are doing with the setting anymore.

If anything, the next edition's Oriental Adventures in Rokugan should ignore not only the Hidden Emperor saga, but also the Anvil of Despair and quite possibly even the Return of the Naga. Just do Rokugan: Year One or All Star L5R and let the PCs be the ones who solve the major problems of Fu Leng. And never ever do the Seven Thunders bullshit.

I cannot disagree with you on this. My DM tried to redo the Day of Thunder and Fu Leng got crapped on within 3 rounds.

But what's your beef with the Anvil of Despair?