How to obtain balance in RPG design.

[Starmaker]

If you default assumption is that anyone will play a published game module/adventure wherein the NPCs is the same design format of the PCs, then you already have a flawed design process. That would be like saying everyone plays MtG for the tournaments, or everyone bought DDM for the minis game.

Lolwut. MTG and DDM are games. You can play them or find an alternate use for the props (or both). An adventure is also a game: you can play it or rip off the plot and write a novel (like a kid did with Ocarina of Time last Thursday).

What that has to do with PC and NPC design formats is beyond my understanding. In fact, I can use this as the argument for quite the opposite, that is, having to provide for the possibility of NPC adventuring alongside PCs for quite some time and not just spawning from nowhere.

It isn't HALO or MW2 where you work together, but get special awards during the game for the most kills or something.

Exactly. And balance is even more important because of this, as the better characters don't even get any recognition for pulling the losers along.

What.

The.

Fuck?

No idea. Trolls aim for maximum reaction, minimum effort.

[A Man In Black]

Adventures cannot be a part of the main game design focus.

I seriously don't know why you guys are replying with anything but image macros; this shit wouldn't get taken seriously even on rpg.net or /tg/.

[Roy]

[mean_liar]

I seriously don't know why you guys are replying with anything but image macros; this shit wouldn't get taken seriously even on rpg.net or /tg/.

Judicious use of dismissive, hopefully cruel image macros is one of the only three reasonable ways to respond to this type of blisteringly useless folderol (other than sending positive critiques by PM or just Ignoring it). Though I've opted for the lattermost option, I heartily endorse any of these methods of response, the funnier the better.

[shadzar]

Adventures...The shit published under some simpleminded focus by the company, as opposed to campaigns. I used to call them modules, but all the kiddies got confused, so I started using the bastardized term that people should be able to understand, but the kiddies today just like to make a word mean a clusterfuck of things all at once and re-write the meaning of it, like "core" or any other word they want to redefine.

[violence in the media]

[Roy]

[A Man In Black]

Adventures...The shit published under some simpleminded focus by the company, as opposed to campaigns. I used to call them modules, but all the kiddies got confused, so I started using the bastardized term that people should be able to understand, but the kiddies today just like to make a word mean a clusterfuck of things all at once and re-write the meaning of it, like "core" or any other word they want to redefine.

[Leress]

Adventures...The shit published under some simpleminded focus by the company, as opposed to campaigns. I used to call them modules, but all the kiddies got confused, so I started using the bastardized term that people should be able to understand, but the kiddies today just like to make a word mean a clusterfuck of things all at once and re-write the meaning of it, like "core" or any other word they want to redefine.

So you were talking about modules when you were talking about what not to design an RPG for.

That still is pretty stupid since the only difference between a module and an adventure is who is making it. A campaign is just a string of adventures so it still doesn't make any sense. What are you suppose to design an RPG for if not adventures and hopefully campaigns?

[Dakira]

I think it's funny how this started off as:
How 2 Mak Bettar RPGz

And went to:
wot iz balance?
All uther balancez r dum.
No balance among playarz.
wot iz balance really?
Adventurez don't count, there's no game in them.
Adventure != campaign && campaign == module.

Really, Shadazar. I think that you should look over all of your previous posts. Read them with a fresh pair of eyes and then you'll see what we're talking about and why we disagree with you. Your argument for "better" RPG design was almost lost in the first post and was completely destroyed by all subsequent posts.

Seems to me that you're asking a philosophical question about design but your argument skills have utterly killed your views on the matter.

You may have been better off sitting in the back seat of a sedan, asking "what is love" and quirking your head around three times.

[shadzar]

Adventures...The shit published under some simpleminded focus by the company, as opposed to campaigns. I used to call them modules, but all the kiddies got confused, so I started using the bastardized term that people should be able to understand, but the kiddies today just like to make a word mean a clusterfuck of things all at once and re-write the meaning of it, like "core" or any other word they want to redefine.

So you were talking about modules when you were talking about what not to design an RPG for.

That still is pretty stupid since the only difference between a module and an adventure is who is making it. A campaign is just a string of adventures so it still doesn't make any sense. What are you suppose to design an RPG for if not adventures and hopefully campaigns?

When I think design and adventure...they end up being things like H series for 4th, GDQ series for 1st, etc....

Not that of the home game which will see the most use of the rules that diverge from something published. (Wish T1-4 would have been diferged from more often...)

Since it was mentioned the game is PvP by virtue of BBEG being a race/class combo, rather than a monster. I could have jsut mentioned it funny how many Licj and other powerful monsters could be the BBEG instead of a PC-ish enemy, but it would just confused people buying adventures made from the rules that think the BBEG must be a PC-ish character.

So all this horseshit in between here has totally lost the post I was responding to, that mentioned he part about the game being PvP because BBEG is always an *"NPC wizard that looks just like the party wizard but a few levels higher".

*Paraphrased since I no longer know where that post was.

Take 4th edition and say you are designing it, would you balance the game on things in modules that were in 4th and the stories they presented, or make it more open ended where the BBEG can be whatever outside of the cliched fighting yourself but a level or two higher...

Gary isn't running the game, so why try to emulate him?

Holy FUCK! BBEG is a Giff and an Arcane! The don't even have PC classes.

Which is pretty much looking at 3th anyway where even Human enemies don't share PC classes even though they are the same race...which is dumb, but another gripe about 4th for another place or later about balance (A race should follow the same rules at all times, and not even race need be a player option to play as.)

So make sense where this goes back in line with regards to the original mention of the game being PvP because adventures have BBEG Z?

Because if that were true, then I would pose the question, if to balance the game for fighting BBEG that is a wizard just a few levels higher than you, then while are not ALL opponents made using the same rules of the PCs so you can choose whether to play co-op or PvP?

I would think the reason to be that the game has an underlying co-op that isn't wanted to be broken by allowing heavily into PvP...such as servers on some MMOs allow PvP in all areas, some in only certain areas, and some do not allow PvP at all......Since each game uses the same code, but just a flag or flags on the server or certain zones to dis/allow PvP; is the game not balanced since it can handle all 3 variants?

Should it have been 3 games with PvP in mind? Do MMO enemies follow the same creation rules as PCs in MMOs even for the race/class type of BBEGs?

Since most of the PvP type arguments come form the newer MMO crowd as it were, as opposed to the old school min-maxers who try to make their wizards be the party rogue and death-dealer combined....

[Utterfail]

I personally believe, that U.S. Americans, are unable to do so, because uh, some, people out there, in our nation don’t have maps. And uh… I believe that our education like such as in South Africa, and the Iraq, everywhere like such as… and, I believe they should uh, our education over here, in the U.S. should help the U.S. or should help South Africa, and should help the Iraq and Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future, for us.

[A Man In Black]

stuff

My favorite part is where shadzar shows that he doesn't know the rules for 2e, 3e, and 4e, all in one post.

It's a hat trick.

[shadzar]

stuff

My favorite part is where shadzar shows that he doesn't know the rules for 2e, 3e, and 4e, all in one post.

It's a hat trick.

Got any proof, other than your mysterious empty quote like the idiot above you?

[A Man In Black]

Got any proof, other than your mysterious empty quote like the idiot above you?

Sure. It's kind of long, so I'll spoiler it out.

[Sunwitch]

Man. This is a good thread.

[cthulhu]

stuff

My favorite part is where shadzar shows that he doesn't know the rules for 2e, 3e, and 4e, all in one post.

It's a hat trick.

Tri-defecta

[Mask_De_H]

This thread, is greatest thread.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Or, rather than spamming the thread, you could use ignore.

[Nicklance]

Is this common in the Den?

[Leress]

shad, the post is on the previous page.

So all this horseshit in between here has totally lost the post I was responding to, that mentioned he part about the game being PvP because BBEG is always an *"NPC wizard that looks just like the party wizard but a few levels higher".

Okay, K did say the word "always" in the description. Now I will say that there is a high possibility that it will be someone with the class levels. It could also be a dragon or some other outer worldly creature. There still needs to be a balance between the monster that you are fighting, the classes (if you are using a class system), and the classes within themselves. Yeah you can't usually put everything you want into a system before stuff starts breaking down or getting overly complicated.

If I were designing a RPG system first I would choose what I want to emulate. Will it be gritty (one-two shot death), realistic, super powered, fantastic, or etc? Then I would see if I wanted to try find sources that match that and see what elements I could take to make it close to that emulation. Will I make it a more generic system or one that is medieval or cyberpunk or future retro or etc?

Next use the Design Flowsheet and see what I come up with. Work on the systems and get it play-tested until it produces the result that I like and send it to see what other think.

[RobbyPants]

Is this common in the Den?

No. I think people have gotten sick of a lot of what Shad has to say, and they don't feel they're ruining a viable thread.

The typical response is to call someone a dumbfuck or retard and tell them to suck a barrel of cocks.

[Psychic Robot]

Is this common in the Den?

In threads where shadar is the dominant poster? Absolutely.

[Roy]

Is this common in the Den?

No. I think people have gotten sick of a lot of what Shad has to say, and they don't feel they're ruining a viable thread.

The typical response is to call someone a dumbfuck or retard and tell them to suck a barrel of cocks.

That and a picture is worth a thousand words/nothing you say or do to him makes the least bit of difference to his dumbfuckery, so you might as well do whatever requires the least effort and is most entertaining to try and salvage some use from him.

[Nicklance]

Thanks for the heads up about shadar. I should lurk more and learn more myself too.