Dark Sun returns

[A Man In Black]

The infuriating thing is that there's already a perfectly good way to represent indiscriminate AOE harm in 4e. All they'd need to do is make a bunch of "defiling" keyword powers with big "every creature in the area" AOEs. If they really want to make sure the party has to eat some damage, make them only work if one or more allies are in the area.

Boom. Defiler spells that hurt the party.

[Username17]

Confirmed!

-Username17

[Jilocasin]

It's almost like they're trying to pound the nails into the coffin even faster than before.

[Crissa]

Geez, in 2e they dealt with this by putting black marks on the field where you used your power, and if your allies stepped in it, they'd get hurt.

What's so hard with the original solution?

-Crissa

[virgil]

That still creates the issue of the fact that until this contradictory power came out, the rules rather explicitly stated that the word 'ally' = 'willing'.

And even then, Dark Sun's defiling was decidedly not a friend-seeking force of betrayal, but an indiscriminate aura of life draining. Hell, it used to just drain plants and make the spot they stood on barren, and it wasn't until the high levels that it would even touch creatures. Even the new flavour is fecal-infused.

[Username17]

The part I like is where just the preview description from months ago got the people here saying "That seems like it would have obvious rules problems" and sure enough the release product had exactly the problems we expected it would have.

The funny thing is that the WotC board hasn't exploded over this yet.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

I sort of view the flavor as you draw the life energy from your companions and the amount of energy you need is variable (depends on # of allies) for balance reasons.

Honestly even if you don't cheese it out, this power is quite powerful, especially once you've got powerful healing clerics in the mix.

[mean_liar]

See that forest? No? How about these trees?

Okay, so if my ranger doesn't fucking feel like hurting himself to power up the selfish wizard then what are they supposed to do?

If this power can hurt people who don't want to support the sacrifice, then why can't it hurt anyfucking one on the field?

Because, as everyone noted, its a stupid fucking rule that fails to accomplish what it set out to do. There are two issues: a stupid rule, and an exploit based on the stupidity of that rule. One is still stupid, and the other is still exploitative.

That STILL doesn't mean using "ally/not-ally" switching isn't a douche move.

[souran]

Honestly,

Half a healing surge from everybody on team hero within 20 squares to let wizards always reroll the attack rolls of their daily powers is well worth it.

In most 4e games I have played Melee pretty much figures that they will take about a healing surge worth of firendly fire in any battle with aoe strikers/controllers so the idea that somebody is going to pitch a complete shit fit over this at the table is stupid.

Additionally, the "whose your ally" will almost certainly fall on the DM to adjudicate. Thats not a good design particularly, but this kind of crap is par for the course when your in the big chair.

The real issue with this power is that while its a good power for any party that isn't totally retarded (if every player was required to use the defile mechanic for every daily power it would still be good and well worth it.), it doesn't have anything to do with what defiling was.

preserving and defiling changed the magic system in core ways. defiling and preserving let you cast more spells if you were willing to destroy an area (high level preserves could utilize an area better and also got an effeciency gain)

Other than hurting stuff, what does this have to do with defiling?

Oh well, I just hope they publish a "healing suges only" ritual magic system in the book, I would buy it just for that.

edited: because starmaker revealed I was lazy in expressing my thoughts.

[Starmaker]

Half a healing surge from everybody within 20 squares to let wizards always reroll the attack rolls of their daily powers is well worth it.

Now that would be a decent rule, not that wizards need any more power-ups, of course.

Additionally, the "whose your ally" will almost certainly fall on the DM to adjudicate. Thats not a good design particularly, but this kind of crap is par for the course when your in the big chair.

NO WAI. "Ally" is an ill-defined term, but what is well-defined is that it assumes a willing target. That's in the PHB.

When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your team-mates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

I foresee DMs adjudicating that if you aren't paying the healing surge price as an ally you are considered an enemy for the purpose of applying the power's effects, which sort of fixes the exploit but doesn't fix the stupid.

[RandomCasualty2]

The real issue with this power is that while its a good power for any party that isn't totally retarded (if every player was required to use the defile mechanic for every daily power it would still be good and well worth it.), it doesn't have anything to do with what defiling was.

Agreed. Defiling before was pretty much just a flavor ability that did very little game mechanically. It was bad for the planet and killed plantlife, but it wasn't really bad for creatures, beyond small insects.

[souran]

I foresee DMs adjudicating that if you aren't paying the healing surge price as an ally you are considered an enemy for the purpose of applying the power's effects, which sort of fixes the exploit but doesn't fix the stupid.

That at least is a solution for the aoe attack powers, but consider the warlock that Frank posted. He really doesn't have any powers that could harm you if you decided not to be his ally.

It may have to be that you end up with a rule of "the allies of my allies are my allies" So that if you refuse every other team members powers hurt you. That would probably prevent people from wanting off team hero at the inconvient moments.

On the other hand, this is only problematic in the first place if you have people who are fighting to not get counted.

Its not a power that is going to come into play all the time. Additionally, if you made it universal I think everybody would be ok with it.

Getting to make sure your DAILY powers don't miss is something that any half compentent group will recognize is in the groups intrest as a whole.

Now most arcane casters probably didn't need that power up. The real issue will be in groups where the players are not friends; say at conventions and D&D game day events because people will probably not want somebody that they hardly know using that kind of power.

[Lokathor]

It strikes me as mildly odd, after looking at the power printed version of Warlock's Curse, that a warlock could curse all his allies in a battle to hose another warlock from being able to do bonus damage.

[Username17]

It strikes me as mildly odd, after looking at the power printed version of Warlock's Curse, that a warlock could curse all his allies in a battle to hose another warlock from being able to do bonus damage.

Actually, cursing your friends and even yourself is a pretty standard Warlock tactic. Nothing bad actually happens to someone because they are cursed unless you blast them. And when they drop to zero hit points, you gain a benefit. So an Inferlock gains temporary hit points every time any one of their targets goes to 0 or less. So if they just Curse themselves (you are by definition your own enemy), they gain hit points every time they hit zero. It's not a healing effect so they won't necessarily become an unkillable phoenix, but it's a nice start.

-Username17

[Blicero]

Generally, evil is the fast-track to power. Creating game mechanics to represent that is fine.

Because that creates asymmetrical power and penalizes people for choosing certain concepts over others. AKA Not Good Game Design

The only way I could possibly justify "evil-as-fast-track" would be to let Purifiers trade in their levels for Defiler. That way, they would reach their old power level much faster (making the advancement seem quicker), but they wouldn't suddenly become outright superior.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Generally, evil is the fast-track to power. Creating game mechanics to represent that is fine.

Because that creates asymmetrical power and penalizes people for choosing certain concepts over others. AKA Not Good Game Design

The only way I could possibly justify "evil-as-fast-track" would be to let Purifiers trade in their levels for Defiler. That way, they would reach their old power level much faster (making the advancement seem quicker), but they wouldn't suddenly become outright superior.

In 2e, preservers could just outright choose to defile at any time, whereupon they'd become defilers. They were also on the slow track to more power: being an avangion was a much better deal than (although not nearly as cool as) being a dragon. Finally, preserving was a good way to avoid lynch mobs.

[Psychic Robot]

Because that creates asymmetrical power and penalizes people for choosing certain concepts over others. AKA Not Good Game Design

Sometimes, fluff ought to come before balance. Evil characters get perks because evil benefits people more than good.

Consider real life. There are two company owners. One pays his workers fair wages, has them work eight hour days, follows safety protocol, and offers them solid benefits. The other milks his workers for all they're worth, paying them a pittance, working them for twelve hours each day, ignoring safety regulations, and denying them benefits.

Which one has a larger paycheck at the end of the day?

Likewise, if there is no power benefit for defiling, then there is no reason to destroy the environment unless every character is a Captain Planet strawman Hoggish Greedily-esque villain who pollutes and plunders because pouring feces into the local water supply is darn good fun.

[virgil]

And once again, people are fine with not granting a mechanical benefit to the demon-powered warlocks above and beyond the other classes. Defiling in all renditions is flat-out less malevolent than the energy a tiefling channels, which makes 4E's betrayal-enriched rendition stupid in almost every way.

[hogarth]

Confirmed!

-Username17

Why do all the powers on that page say things like "1d8+7 damage" or "2d6+5 damage" instead of "1d8+Str damage" or "2d6+Cha damage"? Did I miss an announcement? (Probably.)

[Username17]

Confirmed!

-Username17

Why do all the powers on that page say things like "1d8+7 damage" or "2d6+5 damage" instead of "1d8+Str damage" or "2d6+Cha damage"? Did I miss an announcement? (Probably.)

That is a sample character sheet from the DDXP, where the numbers are already calculated based on the character's stats.

-Username17

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Where in 4E does it define an Ally as a Willing Target?

Edit: I think I found it:

When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies(whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

I've posted a thread over at WOTC about this subject here

[Kaelik]

What a hilarious collection of fail you have managed in that thread Bill.

I mean, I don't think you were trying but:

1) Specific beats general even though there is nothing specific in defiling that changes the rules on ally.

2) Person who just ignores obvious rule idiocy to insult 3.5 devs because he's a 4etard.

3) Person who thinks that no allies taking damage means no reroll.

4) Person declaring RAI is clear (No it isn't, anyone want to present the list of questions Murtak asked in that thread?)

[Lago PARANOIA]

Dammit, Bill, don't point out flaws in the work on other boards until after the book comes out.

We're trying to kill this edition as quickly as possible and this sort of thing, however weakly it does so, does extend the life of this Frankenstein's monster.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

I think there'll be plenty of flaws when the book comes out anyway. Plus, I'm of the opinion that its better to be served the truth in many smaller doses over time rather than in fewer bigger doses at once.

However, I think there's a legitimate point from some other posters, namely that Arcane Defiling doesn't have the Target Entry, however this contradicts the statement on page 57 of:

"If a power directly affects one or more creatures or objects, it has a "Target or "Targets" entry. However, Arcane Defiling has no Target Entry.