[4e] Those lying liars.

[souran]

4e is heroquest with the right amount of other stuff to be a full rpg.

It has rules for all doing the creative "you describe" type rpg game stuff

Yeah, like cast awesome spells that let you teleport, or manufacture a castle, or have dragon senses, or make it rain...

Oh wait, nevermind, it doesn't have any of that.

There are teleport abilties and rituals, there are enchanced senses rituals and there are weather controlling rituals.

I will give you spells to make castles. Although I personally think thats a good thing.

[souran]

Also if you play such that Zargon (the name of the game master)

YOU TAKE THAT BACK YOU WHORE! HIS NAME IS MORCAR!

(I'm aware the name was changed between countries, where US gets Zargon and Europe/Australia get Morcar. But this is the Internet, and HQ is serious business.)

MRCAR is the name of a socialist commufacist islamonazi. Evil overlords NOT named Zargon have no buisness doing evil neffarious deeds.

Also, it begins with Z which is the last letter of the alphabet and that makes it awesome.

Apperently the rest of the world was just not ready for a name that awesome

[Koumei]

Hilariously, Hero Quest does have a spell to create rain and wind: Tempest. Sure, it's a case of "Flavour: a tempest is created. Game effect: enemy can't move", so that's easy for 4E players to get into.

[A Man In Black]

PC's can't attack around corners with ranged weapons either. If PC's use a door as a blocking mechanism just have the monsters all gather in one room thats away from where the pcs are. There are no rules requireing the pcs or the monsters to fight stupidly.

Shooter stands in the door. Allies with reach weapons (it's been a long time, I forget which ones they are) stand on either side. Shooter clears the room, and any enemy who charges gets gangbanged. The monsters can run away, but every single door is an indefinitely defensible so eventually Team Monster has to stop running or there's no game at all. That strategy gets you through enough missions to get to the we-win magic item plateau.

At some point, you need to go off the rails or that one boring strategy kills everything but the few one-off monsters with ranged attacks.

[RandomCasualty2]

They can't avoid it. PCs can attack at range and monsters (mostly) can't, so an unassailable defensive position is a gamewinner for Team PC. There are lots of house rules to work around the issue, of course, but it's not something you can play around within the rules.

That would be a problem if PCs were on defense, only they're on offense. You can literally just have the monsters go on defensive, and the PCs really can't advance anymore.

There's really no incentive or requirement for the monsters to rush the PCs defensive fortifications. If the PCs stop and can't accomplish the quest, then the monsters win.

[RobbyPants]

Allies with reach weapons (it's been a long time, I forget which ones they are) stand on either side.

IIRC, all heroes can use reach weapons. The staff should be able to attack diagonally and can be used by anyone, and the longsword can be used by everyone but the wizard.

Of course, you have to make it though the first quest (which isn't hard) to be able to buy any weapons.

[A Man In Black]

That would be a problem if PCs were on defense, only they're on offense. You can literally just have the monsters go on defensive, and the PCs really can't advance anymore.

There's really no incentive or requirement for the monsters to rush the PCs defensive fortifications. If the PCs stop and can't accomplish the quest, then the monsters win.

The PCs are shooting the monsters. The monsters can try to retreat for a new position, but they can't form a ranged-immune defensive position. A monster charge fails the moment the party retreats to a door, and a monster turtle fails because the party has ranged attacks and the monsters don't.

If the monsters go on defensive, they die to arrows.

IIRC, all heroes can use reach weapons. The staff should be able to attack diagonally and can be used by anyone, and the longsword can be used by everyone but the wizard.

Meant that I couldn't remember which weapons were reach weapons, but yeah, those.

[souran]

Shooter stands in the door. Allies with reach weapons (it's been a long time, I forget which ones they are) stand on either side. Shooter clears the room, and any enemy who charges gets gangbanged. The monsters can run away, but every single door is an indefinitely defensible so eventually Team Monster has to stop running or there's no game at all. That strategy gets you through enough missions to get to the we-win magic item plateau.

At some point, you need to go off the rails or that one boring strategy kills everything but the few one-off monsters with ranged attacks.

IF this is the tactic your worried about why not just not let the longsword and staff attack diagnal through a door or around a corner.

I am not sure that this isn't what I always played anyway.


It would seem to me that some of the other abuses, like the Borin's armor stacking with helemet and shield, or not letting a person have both a battle axe and a long sword or ruling that the talisman of lore provide +1 mind points instead of increasing mind points by 1 for as long as it is worn (This creates an issue with a monster that damages mind points where the talisman's wording might be implied to give a kind of invincibility)

[Kaelik]

I have a solution for team monster:

1) Monster stand on side of door.
2) Monster stand on other side of door.
3) Monster not stand in front of door, but pile up with others.

Humans encounter door. They can't shoot monsters from this side of door. They must move to other side of door. When they move to other side of door, Monsters move to block door and gangbang whomever entered room.

If all players enter room, you get normal fight.

[A Man In Black]

I have a solution for team monster:

1) Monster stand on side of door.
2) Monster stand on other side of door.
3) Monster not stand in front of door, but pile up with others.

One reach-weapon player moves to the doorway. If a monster moves to where it can attack the reach-weapon player, his two reach-weapon-wielding allies mess the monster up. If the monsters don't move, they get killed with no retaliation attacks.

The party has a monopoly on ranged attacks, and a monster charge fails. It's like tic-tac-toe where you always go second; the monsters can only force a stalemate by retreating forever, and most of the dungeons don't require genocide.

Moreover, it's a really easy problem to fix, I said so in my first post. Just let monsters attack diagonally or do something to reign in reach weapons.

[RandomCasualty2]

The PCs are shooting the monsters. The monsters can try to retreat for a new position, but they can't form a ranged-immune defensive position. A monster charge fails the moment the party retreats to a door, and a monster turtle fails because the party has ranged attacks and the monsters don't.

If the monsters go on defensive, they die to arrows.

It's been a while since I played.. but... couldn't the monsters just get on the sides of the room, so they're not in a good shooting line for the PCs?

[Roy]

The PCs are shooting the monsters. The monsters can try to retreat for a new position, but they can't form a ranged-immune defensive position. A monster charge fails the moment the party retreats to a door, and a monster turtle fails because the party has ranged attacks and the monsters don't.

If the monsters go on defensive, they die to arrows.

It's been a while since I played.. but... couldn't the monsters just get on the sides of the room, so they're not in a good shooting line for the PCs?

Is that what you meant?

[RandomCasualty2]

It's been a while since I played.. but... couldn't the monsters just get on the sides of the room, so they're not in a good shooting line for the PCs?

Is that what you meant?

Yeah, lemme change that.

[RobbyPants]

I have a solution for team monster:

1) Monster stand on side of door.
2) Monster stand on other side of door.
3) Monster not stand in front of door, but pile up with others.

Humans encounter door. They can't shoot monsters from this side of door. They must move to other side of door. When they move to other side of door, Monsters move to block door and gangbang whomever entered room.

If all players enter room, you get normal fight.

Kaelik, are you talking about having the monsters adjacent to the door like this:

If so, then the hero can just attack them diagonally through the doorway like so:

If they back up a square away, the hero can just enter in one square and shoot them like this:

If they don't enter in more than one square, they cannot get cut off from the rest of the group.


(added spoilers)

[RandomCasualty2]

If they don't enter in more than one square, they cannot get cut off from the rest of the group.

Yeah but you could gangbang the one PC who walked in and kill him off. In Heroquest I don't recall any resurrection.

Also, wasn't the elf the only one with a bow?

I mean it's been a while since I played... so maybe I'm way off here, but I never really remember door camping being a problem.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah but you could gangbang the one PC who walked in and kill him off. In Heroquest I don't recall any resurrection.

True. That would leave you open to that if you walked in.

Also, wasn't the elf the only one with a bow?

I mean it's been a while since I played... so maybe I'm way off here, but I never really remember door camping being a problem.

No, that's Warhammer Quest. In HQ, no one started with a bow, but everyone other than the wizard could eventually buy a crossbow. Also, anyone could throw daggers, but they would disappear after you threw them

[A Man In Black]

Yeah but you could gangbang the one PC who walked in and kill him off.

Which is why you don't do that unless a PC can eat the hits. Since monsters are all standing around like doofuses before the door is opened, you get a few free rounds until they go to ground, assuming there are any hiding places, lots of rooms are only 3 or 4 squares wide. You open the door, blast any monsters who don't make it to cover, use a spell to break the stalemate, then sweep the room.

The essential tactical limitations of the monsters on top of the math being canted so heavily towards the PCs meant that deaths were really rare except for the occasional special goofy monsters who broke the rules in a way that breaks the stalemate (so not just a chaos warrior with more shield dice).

Everyone is fairly tough, so you can soak a few hits getting into position to spam your gamewinner tactic, and doing so is slow going and kind of boring but pretty much guarantees a win. It doesn't change with tougher dungeons, because those mostly have tougher monsters, not more-capable monsters which require a change in tactics.

Now what does Heroquest have to do with 4e again? ;D

[Kaelik]

I are confused...

Do monsters mandatorily have to start in the middle of the room like idiots or something?

What stops them from hearing banging weapons and getting in position before shit starts.

And yes, I mean the second one. I'm not familiar with the rules, and was thinking that doors were a:

XXX
DXD
XXX

affair, with a spot like that, but even still, if the player moves into the door, you should still be able to gang him with 3 monsters, and then they can retreat (I don't actually know how far people can move, if they can move diagnolly, ect, but I feel like 3 for 1 is a good trade, especially if one is ranged which is assumably weaker.)

[souran]

I are confused...

Do monsters mandatorily have to start in the middle of the room like idiots or something?

What stops them from hearing banging weapons and getting in position before shit starts.

And yes, I mean the second one. I'm not familiar with the rules, and was thinking that doors were a:

XXX
DXD
XXX

affair, with a spot like that, but even still, if the player moves into the door, you should still be able to gang him with 3 monsters, and then they can retreat (I don't actually know how far people can move, if they can move diagnolly, ect, but I feel like 3 for 1 is a good trade, especially if one is ranged which is assumably weaker.)

By RAW in heroquest a monster is not active until the heroes activate enter the section of dungeon with those monsters in it. Basically, monsters in unexplored areas don't get a turn.

Monsters start as positioned on a map that Zargon/Morcar has and keeps behind a screen.

So yes, often the monsters have to start in the middle of a room like idiots.

Again, if you play with "the monsters still get a turn even before the players open the doors the dungeons can be much more insteresting... and fatal.

[shadzar]

Now what does Heroquest have to do with 4e again? ;D

They are both miniature based boardgames, of which HeroQuest is a much better game....

[RobbyPants]

And yes, I mean the second one. I'm not familiar with the rules, and was thinking that doors were a:

XXX
DXD
XXX

affair, with a spot like that, but even still, if the player moves into the door, you should still be able to gang him with 3 monsters, and then they can retreat (I don't actually know how far people can move, if they can move diagnolly, ect, but I feel like 3 for 1 is a good trade, especially if one is ranged which is assumably weaker.)

The crux of this is that players can attack diagonally if they have one of a few key weapons (quarterstaff, longsword, and maybe a handful of artifacts), but monsters cannot attack diagonally.

So if you put three heroes up against the door, only the monster standing right in front of the door can attack the hero right on the other side. He cannot diagonally attack the other two heroes and the two monsters off to the side cannot attack any of the heroes at all. So it's basically a 3 on 1 gang up.

So it looks like this:

As for ganking the hero that crosses into the door and retreating: you can either move and attack, or attack and move; not both. So they could three-on-one gank him, but he could get out if he survived.

Also, oddly enough, hero and monster movement worked differently. Monsters had a static amount they could move (typically 8 or 10 for common monsters), but heroes rolled 2d6, so they were slower on average. You only rolled 1d6 if wearing plate mail. And no, you no one could move diagonally.

[Kaelik]

Okay, and you see how my monster strategy completely owns your player strategies face?

Monsters are door stacked, Players are door stacked.

Monsters are fine waiting. Players are not.

Player moves forward gets single ranged attack. Monsters get 3 attacks. Player retreats and gets one attack. Monsters retreat and wait for repeat.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah that makes sense. The hero could then back out after attacking again, with two heroes waiting on the other side, but the monsters would be free to retreat and repeat this tactic again.

It would end up being a 3-2 trade-off in the monster's favor.

[NineInchNall]

All kinds of stealth updates went into the 3.5 Rules Compendium.

What would these be? I haven't scanned the book fully yet.

[RandomCasualty2]

All kinds of stealth updates went into the 3.5 Rules Compendium.

What would these be? I haven't scanned the book fully yet.

Yeah, from what I saw the rules comp was just a reprint of the exact same shit in the DMG/PHB, only in a different order. I didn't even really see too many rules from other books.